Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - cleveland

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 28
31
The Seed Discussion Forum / 76-77 Seed Grads
« on: May 03, 2006, 12:55:00 PM »
If you were a girl, I wouldn't have been allowed to tag along. I would have to have advanced approveal from staff, and I am sure they would have strongly discouraged me from doing it. I never hung out with anyone exept for another Seed kid from home or work, unless I was assigned to do something with someone else by staff. In my experience, it was pretty rigid.

32
The Seed Discussion Forum / 76-77 Seed Grads
« on: May 03, 2006, 10:56:00 AM »
No. Sometimes I asked to go and was ignored for a while, to demonstrate power. I clearly remember this when I was a newcomer.

33
The Seed Discussion Forum / non rational drug using kids.
« on: May 03, 2006, 10:54:00 AM »
I'm already thinking about this and my daughter has just had her first birthday!

I think about my wife. She's a bit younger than me, so kids her age (gen x, not a boomer like me) did experiment but kind of knew what the consequences might be. They did some drinking, and other things, and all went on to be responsible, wage-earning people, now getting married and having their own kids.

I look at it this way - this stuff is out there, it will never be banned. I would hope to keep my daughter away from it for as long as possible, but at some point, she'll be exposed and I want her to understand what it is and why it's attractive to some people and why it's dangerous for some. I have several alcoholics in my family, some in AA and some who died or nearly did so I can see this. On the other hand, when I left the Seed I decided to use my own judgement so I did experiment, drink, and of course, smoke cigarettes which were by far the most difficult substance of all. I still drink in moderation, but I don't want that to be a central part of my daughter's life.

I think kids who are more vulnerable because they are lonely or angry or sad are going to have substance abuse issues. I think it's more a symptom than a cause early on, until it can become it's own major problem for addicts. [ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2006-05-03 12:37 ][ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2006-05-03 12:37 ]

34
The Seed Discussion Forum / 76-77 Seed Grads
« on: May 03, 2006, 10:44:00 AM »
I can say that in some ways, I agree with Maggie - there were times when I felt like I was living a 'normal' life and that we were having fun without feeling the pressure to 'be cool' - and that was great. But, on the other hand, there were people who had a certain amount of freedom that I and others didn't share, so there were people who could work on projects and use front-end loaders (I remember that day - I spent hours digging a drainage ditch) and stuff. Usually I got stuck with manual labor-type jobs, or being in a rap, but I didn't really have a choice and that's the problem with it for me. So - I learned how to have some fun without drinking or being cool, which was great - but I did feel that my life was really, really REALLY constricted, especially the longer I was there. I am sure I had my own freedoms, but I was envious of people who worked at better jobs than mine, or who were allowed to have more freedom, or were favored with more attention. Stripe's posts seem to reflect someone early in the program, Seth's and FL's are from the standpoint of long-term guys. For whatever reason, we each havce our own perspectives.

I think part of the problem I had is that I really thought I was supposed to be humble, and that meant the I didn't aspire to much when I was at the Seed. I thought that was being grateful for whatever came my way, and not pushing for recognition or privileges.

As far as dating goes, it simply didn't exist when I was at the Seed. I remember Cindy and John were allowed to date, but he was a staff member so he had contact with the girls that I did not. I rarely ever even had a conversation with anyone but a female staff member. My contact with the opp. sex was limited to saying 'hi' (maybe) or 'nice catch' on the football field. Literally. So, I'm not even sure how FL got far along enough to get married! I wouldn't have had the option, not during my time.

I didn't go to La Dome or the movies (I remember seeing exactly one movie - Alien) and I took one trip to the Keys, which was kind of unsanctioned and never repeated. I remember going out to dinner once in my seven-year stint with a couple of seed friends - the rest were always with family when they made once-a-year visit.

I think I kind of took pride in my austere life style, but it also kind of sucked, too. My life was work, group, home - work, group, home - work, group, home - football/baseball on the weekends, then back to work, group, home. Fishing? I did it three times in seven years. Hiking? Never. Making non-Seed friends? Never. Having a stimulating, open conversation where I disagreed with a staff member or someone with more senior status than me? Never! Taking a class, going to a lecture, museum or concert? Never. Reading a good book? Not approved of. Listening to any music besides jazz, big band and 1950s pop? No.

I have some good memories and some good times were had, but lots of days were just kind of gray for me...kind of lonely, since I wasn't free to be my true self. Whenever I did start to have fun, staff would disallow the activity or move me to another apartment. Really, that's what I remember more than anything, was my lack of freedom. More than any fun I had.

35
The Seed Discussion Forum / JOHN GRIMM
« on: May 01, 2006, 09:48:00 AM »
Somebody posted here pretty extensively about a major relapse for John - not to speak ill of the dead, I thought he was a great guy.

He used to show up at the house on Clague road where I stayed as a newcomer. He was a big, gentle giant and he always had his 6 pack of 'diets' - he'd drink all of them in an evening. He drove a little old triumph spitfire sportscar, I think.

It seemed sad when he and his wife and baby moved to Ft. Lauderdale. He seemed to be on Seed probation, and they would always sit on a blanket off to the side at the beach on weekends when everyone else would play ball. Shunned.

But what do I know.

w

36
The Seed Discussion Forum / 76-77 Seed Grads
« on: May 01, 2006, 09:44:00 AM »
Seth, I didn't know you had lived in the apartment in Hollywood. It was really sort of a cottage or shack - the porch was dirt, the doors were so narrow we had to saw the legs off our couch to get it thru the door, and you had to walk thru the shower to get into the back bedroom - what a dump! Actually, those were some of my happiest Seed days - I lived there with Mitch, Mike and maybe one other person. I worked with Jim Helm for the one-armed plater. We were far from staff and other seed kids, and had a lot of freedom, comparatively. We used to hold wrestling matches, fool around and laugh like crazy. No wonder staff broke us up before too long!

The guy who buried a VW in his front yard was our neighbor - he had the house surrounded by sandbags, and he used to wear a uniform and was never out during the day, only at night when he would rant at rave at 3 am about blacks and jews - truly scary.

Odd how much I loved that place. That was before Mitch became a snooty insider with a fancy job title. He was my best friend for a while, though.

w

37
The Seed Discussion Forum / Dr. Margaret Sanger
« on: April 26, 2006, 04:40:00 PM »
Stripe, my heart goes out to you - as someone who has suffered from a variety of symptoms, I know a bit what you are going through. Whether any of it is or was caused by experiences you had at the Seed, only you can answer that. Late teens is when many psychic, social, mental and behavioral disorders make themselves apparent, so it is hard to know for sure. For myself, I look at it this way - I was born with a certain pre-disposition for responding to stress in a certain way, and some of these tendencies were enhanced by my troublesome family environment, friends I chose, school, and yes, the Seed. But I was well on my way to developing some neuroses, Seed or not. In my case, I was a very sensitive person, tending to turn my feelings inward - I'd rather die than hurt another person, in most cases, so I went from being a little shy, to being depressed and anxious, to developing weird social phobias, complete with panic attacks, persistant troubling thoughts and feelings. I also hid this as best I could, because I had no tools to deal with these things, and admitting them only led to shame.

Over the years, I sought help in a variety of ways, and I read as much as I could and tried to integrate my knowledge with my behavior. Today, I think I am pretty healthy, but it has taken a lot of work, and also, some of this may just have dissipated with age.

I used to blame my parents, until I realized they had some of the same issues I had, expressed in different ways. We were not so different.

I don't blame the seed - my painful experiences there were really just a continuation of my painful experiences in high school and Junior High - wanting to be accepted by the group without ever really fitting in, trying to hide my supposed defects, including my mental ones, and desperate for love and attention which was not forthcoming. I was never hit, pushed or sexually abused, and yes, I was yelled at, shamed and my freedom was severly limited. I was not permitted full adulthood and I was led to believe that I couldn't handle it or maybe didn't deserve it. But I was complicit in this because I believed it. I accept responsibility for that - of course, I was a 19 year old who came into the program voluntarily, and so I can only speak for myself.

I also have fond thoughts of people and experiences I had at the Seed, but not without some bitterness regarding 'what might have been' if I had really been trusted to grow - perhaps there would have been some real, authentic 'tools' and friends I could have left with.

So, I just wanted to wish you well as you try to grapple with all of this - perhaps my experience is useful, but in the end, you are on your own. I just want ot voice my appreciation for your posts here, you've helped me to.

My god, now I feel like I am in group. Well, it is true, we can learn from each other...

w

38
The Seed Discussion Forum / Dr. Margaret Sanger
« on: April 25, 2006, 08:14:00 AM »
AS to Stripe's point:

First of all, I think it is amazing that our society tolerated freedom at all. For a brief shining hour, I think America did have the moral high ground, perhaps there is something to this 'greatest generation' nonsense. OK, not much tolerance of uppiddy blacks, feminazis, queers or hippies, but didn't the good guys always pull out the Bill of Rights at the dramatic moment in the movies? Wasn't it always the American soldier who would face court martial rather than betray his ideals? Didn't the evil Nazi prisoners always have their rights read to them? Weren't there high ideals, like justice, and truth, and humanity?

Remember "I Have a Dream"?

Then we had political assinations, Nixon, Vietnam and the demonization of the left. I think the dark forces are out to put the genii back in the bottle - freedom is too good for us today. You know, the streets are very clean in Singapore. Dictatorship has it's advantages. We're better off being stupid, controllable consumers of mass culture. Right?

Maybe I just have brain fever.

39
The Seed Discussion Forum / "the rules"
« on: April 25, 2006, 07:58:00 AM »
Dave,

Were you on the front row with my brother, Evan? Check out the link above, from the Cato institute. Very interesting. He ran away three times...and he also lives in LA today.

Yeah, I also read Toxic Parents. Turned out my mom, a very wonderful person, also seems to have had some major depression, manic depression, and was working her way up to full blown alcoholism. She was pretty nutty during my teen years, not much support there, although she was 'doing her best' under the circumstances. My dad was the classic work twelve hours, come home, have a couple of drinks, and zone out kind of guy...no softball leagues or camping trips for me. It wasn't all bad, but that was a big part of what I was missing when I went into the seed - parenting. My parents were trying to raise themsilves - both came from families where heavy drinking was normal. I waited until my late 40s to have a child, hope to god I'm ready now.

Whatever Seed kids I ran into during my first three months were a blur, unless I lived with them, and even those memories are hazy...

Take care.

w

40
The Seed Discussion Forum / Dr. Margaret Sanger
« on: April 24, 2006, 08:02:00 PM »
So read this and tell me if you think it's a good thing...

http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=35

41
The Seed Discussion Forum / "the rules"
« on: April 24, 2006, 07:51:00 PM »
Dave,

I visited the Cleveland Seed building recently and the block tile is still there. Remember the fire place with some fancy tiles in it in the rap room? Remember the saint statues near the front door? They're gone now. Or did I imagine them?

When did you graduate? Do you remember Alex, whose parents owned a restaurant? Do you remember Miller's? Another restaurant. Aparently I'm obsessed with food.

Scott and Terry. Well, I knew them too. Scott was hilarious - remember the story about getting a black eye and putting a steak on it and passing out, or something like that? He was the reason I said Yes to coming into the Seed.

I still live in Cleveland, by the way. Doing well.

w

42
The Seed Discussion Forum / "the rules"
« on: April 24, 2006, 03:57:00 PM »
Dave, what year?

I was there in the last three months before it moved to Florida.

w

43
The Seed Discussion Forum / sexual fetishes brought about by the Seed!
« on: April 24, 2006, 11:19:00 AM »
Yes, and I had a huge crush on one of the female staff members, made more powerful by the fact that she had so much power over me. She had in fact, shown me kindness, but she was also 'brutally' honest with me, pointing out my faults and weaknesses. And I am certain my 'crush' was noted, and was used to control me. I actually worked up the cajones to go to another staff member, and seek permission to ask this girl out. He almost laughed at me. I was turned down, and at this point I began to realize what a fantasy world I was living in, that my poor fantasies of being a happily married Seed kid were all false. Maybe if I had stuck around long enough, a female partner of more or less equal status might have been assigned to me, with Art's approval (that's the way it worked towards the end). Like an arranged marriage. Imagine that. I wonder who I would have ended up with.

44
The Seed Discussion Forum / sexual fetishes brought about by the Seed!
« on: April 24, 2006, 09:31:00 AM »
Sometimes, when I was a long-term oldtimer, early to mid-twenties, 'straight' for five years or more, and I would look at all the attractive, young kids at the Seed, and I would think - what are we doing! These are supposed to be happy days of being young, falling in love, learning about sex! It's the garden of eden, and we are all acting like polyester amish or something, singing zipadee doo daa with a middle-aged man with a ukelele!

Then I'd remember what a fuck-up I was, and return to furtive fantisies.

45
Public Sector Gulags / The Birth of a Monster
« on: April 23, 2006, 02:05:00 PM »
Three Springs, once this is edited I think it would be great to have people from other programs read it. It's very instructive. Personally, I hope you get some distance from the events, because I think the chapter 3 part is too full of self-recriminations, and perhaps your sense of personal guilt will in time, meld with further awareness of how you were a cog in this system.

Why is it that we feel that kids need to be forced to be good? You were a well-meaning person, who was guilty of being young and easily manipulated yourself. What can we learn from this?

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 28