Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Tampa survivor on November 12, 2002, 09:24:00 PM

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 12, 2002, 09:24:00 PM

I saw a common theme surfacing on a few other threads (see Pro Potheads last couple pages) with some straight survivors feeling very strongly about self-reliance and others who seem to believe that somebody else is responsible for people's failures.
Who thinks progress in an individual comes from a government program or "opportunity"?
Who thinks opportunities are made by individual drive?
What seperates the engineers, doctors, RNs, lawyers and web designers among us from those who are bitter? Some lament the "system" being against them, where others thrive under the same system.
How are you doing?
I wonder if the achievements of straightlings is higher, lower or equal to societies norm.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: hedwigfan on November 13, 2002, 05:53:00 AM

Interesting question. I'm personally motivated by an inner drive, something that I suppose has always been there, but has been asleep at times. It took me 16 years to complete my bachelor's degree, and an additional 4 years to obtain my medical degree. I am deeply in debt after med school, working for slightly over minimum wage as a resident, and am truly looking forward to completing my training so I can start paying down my debt and maybe even start to save! Even so, becoming a doctor has been worth the blood, sweat, and tears, because I did it myself, with the support of my husband and kids. No handouts from anyone, just alot of hard work, determination, and personal sacrifice.
Down at Grady Hospital, you see alot of folks who feel someone else is responsible for the choices they've made in life. While I believe some folks (mainly kids) truly are victims of our system, I think there are some other people who get lots of handouts, yet still feel entitled to more. I'm really not sure how they contribute to society or why they feel so entitled. Seems like the more some people are given, the less determined they become to work for what they have. Just an observation. Tough question with no right answers.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on November 13, 2002, 10:52:00 AM

One of the common threads in my mother's house was the fact that I never finished anything in my life. I skipped my senior year of high school, I withdrew from Straight, I attended 3 different universities without completing a degree. I am on my third marriage...
Pretty much, I have been told the only thing I have ever gotten right is the way that I am raising my children. Were I not able to bite my tongue, the retort would be- because I have done everything the exact opposite of the way you did, mom!

I am getting better at sticking with things now that I am older, I have been in my current industry for 5 years. I "feel" settled about my life, I am okay with my job, I thank God for my husband and kids, I wouldn't trade them for the world. My husband has been especially instrumental in helping me come to some of the realizations that I have had recently. He has a way of helping see there may be another way to perceive something than the original take I may have on something.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: METALGOD8 on November 13, 2002, 11:48:00 AM

If at first you dont succeed, give it up, it's pointless! LOL.... Well, not quite, but close for me. When I quit being employed in 1993, I had a vision of being rich and popular amongst the less fortunate and wanted to help. ALways wanting to help others since nobody seems to care about anybody these days. I started a recycling business, LOL, how stupid that was now that I have failed miserably at it. I was awake one week for 162 hours trying to get all the work done. That's what it was, all work, no pay. I keep thinking I will make it big one day, get that "contract" from NASA, or some other entity that will ensure my financial security. Nowadays, I mine gold from computer components, but most of the money goes back to the suppliers. It is a rough business, I see people making money right before and right after I get there. If Joe buys a whole fuckin storage bin loaded with 500 computers for $50, then he comes up to me the next day and says, you wanna buy these PC's for $2 each? HOLY SHIT! He is making a friggin million bucks off me, the sucker. Let me tell you, this kind of shit follows me around too. I can't blame my money shit on other people, but when do I get my break? I'd love to have it easy like Joe. Sure, every once in a while a deal real sweet comes along, but somehow, some way it finds out how to screw up and turn into a nightmare. LOL... I agree that the more handouts you get, the easier it is to relax. I am guilty of that. I also think that getting depressed about failing has something to do with it. I put a lot of eggs in a lot of baskets which is stupid, business wise, and I am a glutton for punishment when someone wants to buy my stuff for dirt cheap. Back in 98, some asshole stole 55 airconditioners out of my storage box, one week before Christmas. We have 6 kids and I was so pissed off that I wanted to kill that MO FO!. I even cornered him at the scrapyard and he said they were his for the taking, my name wasnt on them. That SOB, let me tell you, that was a sign of times to come. I never got reimbursed, whatever, water under the bridge. Scrap metal aint diamonds. I tried getting him banned from the scrapyard, but they laughed at me! LOL... I want to be successful, at least I never give up 100% theres hope somewhere. Maybe I will find a job that will pay enough, then not be self employed like this. I love being my boss. My family suffers for it though, and I am not happy about that. but as long as we can stay together and work it out, what else is there to do? Oh and my gold buyer died, so I have a problem selling that. just another example of the shit that happens. MG8

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: kosmonaut on November 13, 2002, 02:16:00 PM

"Who thinks progress in an individual comes from a government program or "opportunity"?

What kind of government program are you talking about? Speaking for myself I've never been the beneficiary of any government program. Individuals can progress, although most people just wanna be entertained.

"Who thinks opportunities are made by individual drive?"

I think in our society there are a handful of people who get ahead by individual drive alone. The rest get ahead by using other people as rungs for their success ladder. Harsh but it's the truth.

"What seperates the engineers, doctors, RNs, lawyers and web designers among us from those who are bitter?"

People in those occupations have the same problems as everyone else. Many of them are bitter too.

"Some lament the "system" being against them, where others thrive under the same system. How are you doing?"

I'm treading water, and have been my whole life. I have a good job, and a place to live and have no complaints, but I'm still living month to month. I guess that's fine for now. I've always felt like I go against the grain of society. I've learned to fit in, but in my heart I despise it. What else can you do?

"I wonder if the achievements of straightlings is higher, lower or equal to societies norm."

I would guess lower since many of us had our personalities pushed through a meat grinder during our formative years. The ones who were lucky enough to get support later on from people who cared probably had a better chance. I know I'm one of those people.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Froderik on November 13, 2002, 02:45:00 PM

"Who thinks opportunities are made by individual drive?"

I would have to pick this one. Although there could be exceptions (i.e. a really great job) About 1/4way thru highschool I began to lose interest in just about every subject but English. Could chalk it up to drugs, but the bottom line is I just got bored with the academics...The only way I could see myself as truly being happy AND successful is by doing something that I wanted to do & 'being my own boss...'

¥ ¥ and don't forget this page... ¥ ¥

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=20&25 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=20&25)

[ This Message was edited by: AlexL on 2002-11-13 11:47 ]

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Antigen on November 13, 2002, 04:59:00 PM

Quote:

On 2002-11-12 18:24:00, Tampa survivor wrote:I saw a common theme surfacing on a few other threads (see Pro Potheads last couple pages) with some straight survivors feeling very strongly about self-reliance and others who seem to believe that somebody else is responsible for people's failures.

How about both? I don't think anyone else is responsible for any of my own failures or poor choices. However, others are responsible for some misfortunes that have befallen me through no choice of my own. I'm pretty happy with where I've landed up in life despite adversity. But still very resentful over some things that have been done to me.

Quote:

On 2002-11-12 18:24:00, Tampa survivor wrote:
Who thinks progress in an individual comes from a government program or "opportunity"?

To err is human. To thoroughly foul things up requires government funding.

Quote:

On 2002-11-12 18:24:00, Tampa survivor wrote:
Who thinks opportunities are made by individual drive?

No, opportunities come and go. It takes a little personal drive to recognize them and to pursue them.

Quote:

On 2002-11-12 18:24:00, Tampa survivor wrote:
What seperates the engineers, doctors, RNs, lawyers and web designers among us from those who are bitter? Some lament the "system" being against them, where others thrive under the same system.
How are you doing?

Nothing. I'm pretty successful as a website developer. And still pretty pissed off. I thrive on turning my ability and my drive toward efforts that will pay my bills and also further causes that I think will help set right some of what's wrong with 'the system.' Here's one http://JonathanGullible.com/ (http://JonathanGullible.com/) And another, http://Trebach.org/ (http://Trebach.org/) and another, comming soon, http://ADrugWarCarol.com/ (http://ADrugWarCarol.com/)

Quote:

On 2002-11-12 18:24:00, Tampa survivor wrote:
I wonder if the achievements of straightlings is higher, lower or equal to societies norm.

From all I've seen and heard, it's much lower on average.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ClayL on November 13, 2002, 07:40:00 PM

I'd say that I am doing quite well. I am not, however where I wanted to be at this point in my life. I had to stop and repair the considerable damage done by straight and beyond. I know quite a few former straight clients/prisoners that are doing very well for themselves. I know some who have fallen off the face of the earth and haven't heard from them in years. When I get focused on something, I could bite nails and piss rust. The trouble is getting me focused. I think the former clients of straight are no better or worse off than everyone else. I do think that we, as a group, have had serious harm done to our ability to mature at the pace of the rest of society. I also believe that unless we seek help, we will be unabe to mature enough to be a productive member of society. I think we, the former clients/prisoners of straight are seriously fucked up people all suffering from PTSD to some degree or another among the cornucopia of other disorders, also caused or agravated by straight.

On another note, I think charity should be handled by chuches and humanitarian organizations like it was before FDR and LBJ. Great society my ass. I think private groups, whose members have a vested interest, should perform the functions of Social Security, and ALL the rest of the "entitlements." Hell, the Constitution was written by a bunch of RICH white guys. You think they put something about entitlements in there? I am incredibly conservative on all issues except these:

1.) The death penalty is wrong. I want no part of it.
2.) If a person is old enough to fight and die for their country, they are old enough to have a drink in that country. Goes for smoking dope also.
3.) I believe an abortion is wrong, but that JUST my belief. What you believe is YOUR belief.
4.) If someone wants to watch porn. Good for them. If someone wants to be in porn, good luck.

I believe the second amendment says I have a personal RIGHT to have any light weapon the military has. This includes machine guns.

Am I bitter about my experience in straight? Yes!

I am the Sr. UNIX administrator for a mid-cap corporation. I control around 60 AIX, solaris and NT servers the lragest having 14GB of RAM and 1TB of storage space. I love my geeky job and I am HUNGRY to advance in my chosen career path. To say I am driven is an understatement. I will be starting to work on getting an MBA this spring and find myself excited by the long road. This has not happened in quite some time. I could eat nails and piss rust.

CL

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on November 13, 2002, 09:08:00 PM

I think that success after straight depends totally on the person. I am a survivior of St. Pete, along with a brother who is 1 year older. My oldest brother is a survivor of the Seed. (Nice parents huh?) My two brothers have had nothing but heartache and disapiontment since thier adulthood, they have had failed marriages, suicide attempts and have both been institutionalized since. I am ok, life has been good to me. Or maybe I have been good to myself. It is strange to think that the three of us have had the same parents and the same therapy (for lack of better word) and we have turned out so diffrently. The brother that I was in Straight with, I do not speak to, we can never rebuild the relationship that the staff at Straight worked so hard to destroy. My oldest brother (Seed survivor) is living with me right now, after a failed suicide attempt, this is the first time we have spoken in ten years. I think what I am trying to say is that people from Straight have both done good and bad, just as on can say about thier graduating high school class. I am posting as anonymous because I have worked very hard to get away from straight, most people know my family and we have been used as examples for both sides of the debate. I wish it all never happened, but if it did not would i be were i am today?

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: the other anonymous on November 15, 2002, 10:54:00 PM

"Now, if you read my post again, you will note that PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is a major part of success. I said you have to work the grant thing. Same with social services. MEDICAID pays for every single thing you could get. Better than private insurance. If someone is UNABLE to fill out the form, someone will fill it out for them. Financial aid at college is one form sent to fed. Everything else is right on campus."

Oh, big fat whatever, Tampa. You obviously have not been there. There was no MEDICAID for me. (Though there would have been if I had been PREGNANT). And I was sick and needed to just be able to deal with my health problems and not have to avoid the payment window and get threatening bills in the mail every month, and be able to get the right kind of tests and maybe the more expensive medication. And to rest in bed for a week or two at least instead of freezing and working like a dog. A couple years later, I finally get a real diagnosis and the medicine is very expensive.

And school takes way more than those grants or whatever. It helps to not be sick in the first place, and not be exhausted all the time from being freezing cold.

So BIG FAT WHATEVER.

I really should not get mad when people don't get it. I should just feel sorry for them because it could easily enough happen to them too. All it takes is a slow chronic illness or one catastrophe.

And the thing is, the thing that you don't get because you don't know me, I DID NOT WANT HANDOUTS. Here's what I got when I was poor: free food from a food pantry charity that was just canned peas and breakfast cereals and pasta and rice, and it was counted, so I only got maybe a weeks worth of edible stuff that way -- the stuff you shove to the back of your cabinets and forget about. It helped, but it was not the whole healthy foods I desperately needed at the time. I got maybe four months worth of food stamps. I got $150 from a charity one time to pay PART of my rent. I got an untrained "counselor" to talk to me for free. This person suggested to me that I could get on disability because I obviously had PTSD (crying all the time, etc.). But I totally did not want to do that. I was not helpless at all, and I wasn't going to live as if I was.

All I am saying is that people do get down and out, and somehow, in a civil society in one of the richest countries in the world, where Hollywood blows up mansions and fifty-thousand dollar cars for entertainment, there ought to be a helping hand to get a person back up again. Not to LIVE on handouts, not at all, only to help improve things so they don't die a slow and lonely death.

"What seperates the engineers, doctors, RNs, lawyers and web designers among us from those who are bitter?"
AN EDUCATION

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 16, 2002, 09:13:00 AM

"Oh, big fat whatever, Tampa. You obviously have not been there."

Halfway through my college program my X dropped medical on our kids....I got medicaid for them but not me. Been there... I lived without insurance for 2 years. I know what its like to get well without insurance. It cost me 200 bucks to beat a nasty strep throat infection. An office visit and a course of Biaxin can be a tricky thing to pay for as a broke student dad.

"All it takes is a slow chronic illness or one catastrophe."
My oldest was diagnosed with a degenrative orthopedic problem during this time. Expensive braces, orthotic shoes, surgeons and specialists, paid for when I couldn't.
I AGREE that medical care should be available to all. I just don't want to end up like Canada and europe where a 3 month wait for an MRI is standard and the cost overall is HIGHER than here. Profit is WHY we have the most innovative equipment and medicine in the world.
A massive readjustment to the way we do medical care and compensation is needed. It is a VERY complex situation. I deal with it often as an RN working in an urban trauma center.
Glad to see you finally got proper treatment. Thanks for posting
Bill

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Majiktrvls on November 16, 2002, 11:12:00 AM

Tampa Survivor posed the question:

"What seperates the Engineers, doctors, RN's, lawyers and Web Designers from those among us who are bitter?"

Well, in my opinion.........

Education seperates the above mentioned professions from the poverty or low income level, but it does not guarantee that immunity from bitterness will be granted along with the diploma. Bitterness comes from within. It is a state of mind. No matter how well educated or non-educated an individual may be, NO matter how much money an individual earns or does not earn, people have the choice to live in bitterness, or to move away from it and become accepting of their own lives and destinations.

[ This Message was edited by: Majiktrvls on 2002-11-16 08:16 ]

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Hamiltonf on November 16, 2002, 11:27:00 AM

You've obviously been misinformed about the Canadian system, which may be in crisis but nevertheless does not see a substantial portion of the population without ANY medical care at all as is the case with our hysterical friends to the south. But then, you should see the movie "Bowling for Columbine" where your own Michael Moore asks questions about why so many people are being killed in the US. Again you lock up poorer people, especially in Jeb Bush's Florida . Something approaching 7 times the incarceration rate of Canada where we are more inclined to care for each other, (and our neighbours by the hundreds when they got stranded on Sept 11th, 2001) And you Yanks wonder why the rest of the world hates you! I would have thought it was bloody obvious. Straight inc. is just one of the reasons. So go ahead with your war against everything. Many Canadians and a growing number of informed Americans don't want to be a part of it.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2002, 12:58:00 PM

that,s why canadian docs keep immagrating to the u.s. right? just because you are stuck in a shithole country with no culture of its own, a socialist government and a piss poor economy you shouldn't blame it on us. fuckface. we provide your defense and buy all the commodities you grub out of the ground up there and don't forget it or think you could do without it for one second. asshole.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 16, 2002, 01:57:00 PM

Worked with a canadian rn recently.
She sure likes working in bush's florida.

she gets her medical stuff done here.
Bill

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 16, 2002, 02:01:00 PM

Majik...great point on bitterness...
I have been happily broke more than once.
Maybe I should say
what seperates those who have failed to reach sucess and SEEM bitter about it.
Liked your post.
Nice eastern feel to it.
Bill

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Hamiltonf on November 16, 2002, 09:15:00 PM

As a matter of fact a number of my my neighbours are refugees from the States. But don't worry It's clear that KIDS and The Straights did a better job of indoctrinating you than you realise. The Bushes, the Semblers, the Straights -- all part of the same repressive regime, right?, land of the free, home of the brave, right? With an incarceration rate higher than anything under the Soviet regime?
Are you guys fans of Pat Buchanan or what? Is that what the Straights teach you?
I just love needling right wing Americans, they are such idiots. Read Chomsky (the most highly respected American outside of the US) and you'll understand.

As for the people moving south of the border, that's actually a myth. As my son said after spending a couple of months working down there "It's a hell-hole, we have a much better quality of life." Again, go see "Bowling for Columbine" You guys are self-destructing. You may not see it yet but consider what Jeb Bush's daughter is trying to tell you? Ask why, and look in the mirror.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: gagesteele on November 16, 2002, 09:31:00 PM

Please, guys, please don't do this Canada vs. USA thing. Don't let the conversations devolve into a blamey, nationocentric game. _That_ is destructive, and the directors of your programs would probably eat it up hand over fist.

You're all on the same side, here. Remember?

Sara
Amity School Founding Class, 1988

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Hamiltonf on November 16, 2002, 09:37:00 PM

Well Bill, I have a friend who is suffering from leukemia and was told she may only have six months to live. Her husband took her to to the States because he thought she'd get better treatment. One problem, it would cost $2,000,000.00. Upon retun to Canada she discovered she could have the same (or better) treatment here and it wouldn't cost a penny. And there was no waiting list. That was three years ago. She's still getting treatment if and when it is needed.
Maybe you need to ask Kiefer Sutherland (TV program "24")about the difference between the US & Canadian Systems.
The point is, privatetreatment facilities such as the KIDS have one motivation -- profit -- and what is destroying US health care is HMO's . The same insurance companies that want to get involved in Canada, and the pharmaceutical industry don't give a shit about people. It's just the bottom line. Whether you realise it or not, we're all victims of a ruthless, inhumane system that is destroying the world in the interests of the bottom line. The drug war is really a turf war between the Hell's Angels (and organised crime such as the Semblers and Bushes) and the pharmaceutical companies.......... But let's get back to the real purpose of this board. The survivors of Straights, inc, and the KIDS need help. If the people responding to my post are survivors , your posts only reflect how badly you've been damaged. If you are proponents of the Straights (which I suspect), you really have no clothes.
Heil, Sembler.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Hamiltonf on November 16, 2002, 10:00:00 PM

Sara:
My intention was not to do that. The problem is that the Drug War is largely developed by the US Christian right and other fundamentalists -- they are the basis of KIDS, the Straights, etc.
There is much that I as a Canadian admire in the people of the US. But your government is failing you, and I think the American people are beginning to sense that (ours is too, but in a different way). I was shocked on September 11th and wept along with everyone else --- but I wasn't surprised that it happened in part because it demonstrated Western policies, led by corporate America coming home to roost. That's why I think you should all see "Bowling for Columbine" and read "Stupid White Men" by Michael Moore.

And don't worry, being called an asshole or a fuckhead doesn't bother me. It just reinforces my opinion of those people as lacking an educated vocabulary. I hope they feel better for getting it off their chests.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 17, 2002, 12:16:00 AM

"If the people responding to my post are survivors , your posts only reflect how badly you've been damaged. If you are proponents of the Straights (which I suspect), you really have no clothes.
Heil, Sembler. "

I seriously wonder if you have read any of our other posts. straight supporters are rarely public about it here, and I AM NOT ONE.
As for your freind, I am glad she is doing better. I SAID our system is totally screwed. Profit possiblity leads innovation, and that is why we invent all the coolest, newest scanners, tests, drugs, CT, MRI,PET etc. The sad part is that only a portion of us are paying, the government pays for some, insurance for others, and some just dont pay.
It is truly a multifocal cluster fuck.
But if I get something really bad, I don't see myself flying to Moscow or Montreal for treatment.
I have absolutly enjoyed the western provinces of your beautiful country. The people were nice, scenery perfect, and if it wasn't so damned cold half the year, I woulda stayed longer.
Bill

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: junkyrd on November 17, 2002, 12:37:00 AM

I had the drive, I wanted to get out and away from where my family was. I was lucky enough that school just wasn't that hard -until calculus-ugh! I was so intense after straight that I attacked every task with some kind of weird vengance. In hindsight, I think I just wanted to prove everybody wrong and show 'em all that I could be successful, that I did amount to something. I was lucky enough to have access to college. I love to build things. Especially machines, and picked a career where I could be part of building really big stuff.

There have been many, plenty of times where I just did whatever I had to do to get by. One day at a time. Especially as a single parent. Having a kid made it imperative that I finish school so I could provide for my own. Made it imperative that I find a good job. Having losers for husbands 1&2 made it imperative that I be totally self-sufficient. Natural interest, farm work and crappy cars taught me mechanics. I could/can always find something to do.

Once I had the good job, I did the best I could. Damn 5th phase eagle eye serves well finding a faulty weld in a smoky flashlight beam. Or a rotten bulkhead, or bad wiring, or a sweaty welder with a back pocket full of rods working on a hull seam. My boats have never fallen apart or caught fire or taken on water due to poor workmanship at construction or repair. I can't help it when idiot Boudreaux pulls the flukes on the stern anchor up through the transom!

The point is, without drive and desire, the opportunity means nothing. Having drive and desire, creates opportunities or improves upon others.

My desire to surpass the expectations of my relatives has caused me to fight for achievement. I made it in a tough field, I'm the first woman to hold my position in the company history of 150yrs. I feel satisfied. I drive an old car, nothing shiny, piglet in the shed (iron head sporty), have a junky yard and am content with that. Short of catastrophe, I have the ability to give my kids access to college like I had. I hope I can pass on a desire to them to reach for their goals and let nothing deter them from achieving their dreams. After all, that is the point.

Trish

"Who thinks progress in an individual comes from a government program or "opportunity"?
Who thinks opportunities are made by individual drive?
What seperates the engineers, doctors, RNs, lawyers and web designers among us from those who are bitter? Some lament the "system" being against them, where others thrive under the same system.
How are you doing?
I wonder if the achievements of straightlings is higher, lower or equal to societies norm. "

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ClayL on November 17, 2002, 10:35:00 AM

Micheal Moore is NOT representative of most Americans. You can look at the utopian gun control country of Great Britian. Since banning all firearms, crimes commited with firearms have skyrocketed. Now GB has more violent crime than the US and that is using a statistical method, unlike the US, that minimizes crime reporting. Micheal Moore is so liberal that Carl Marx is to his right.

CL

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Hamiltonf on November 17, 2002, 02:59:00 PM

Unreal! Spoken like a true victim of the Straights. It's kind of like the battered wife syndrome. Constantly beaten up by the system, you can't see any better way, and can't get out. Yes it's true, there has been a significant increase of crime in Britain -- SINCE Margaret Thatcher adopted the US war on drugs as a matter of policy, but still, the RATE of violent crime there remains way below the US.
Read "The Manufacturing of Consent" by Noam Chomsky
Here's some statistics for you:
since 1979, 85,000 American children have been killed by firearms in the US.
A gun will take the life of an American child at the rate of a classroom every two days.
Nearly three times as many children under ten die from gunfire as the number of law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty.
Here are the number of children killed by firearms in 1996:
Japan -- 0
Britain -- 19
Germany -- 57
France -- 109
Canada -- 153
USA -- 5,285

According to the US Centre for Disease control and Prevention, compared to children in other developed countries, US children under the age of fifteen are:
16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun
11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun
9 times more likely to die in a firearms accident.
This year an average a youth under age 20 will be shot to death once every 2 1/2 hrs. In Canada, fewer than two per month.
The United States has the highest homicide rate OF ANY OF THE WORLD'S TOP THIRTY DEVELOPED NATIONS.
In 1999 15,333Americans were murdered. Throughout the nineties the RATE per hundred thousand of population was one third in Canada what it is in the US.
In 2000 in Toronto there were 81 homicides, In Chicago there were 644.
More than half of the guns in Canada recovered from crimes originate in the US (But we send you pot, which sends your Drug Czar running around the country threatining us with reprisals if we DARE to legalize it)
"The Economist" reports that "the suicide rate for Americans tripled between 1950 and 1994"

My point in all this is not to denigrate American people but to draw attention, on this forum to the fact that the war on drugs, the Straights, etc are a fundamental component of the highly repressive regime that you live under.

And what I see on this specific discussion... "who's making it and how" is a discussion of "success" driven by assumptions that are essentially identical to those upon which the Semblers and the Bushes operate. Social Darwinism personified. Survival of the fittest, and devil take the hindmost.

The irony of it all is, that Milton Friedman the darling of the whole system did not advocate the war on drugs, though that is what Thatcher and Reagan intensified during the 70's, (quoting Friedman on everthing else)

So, if there's been an increase in crime in Britain, it certainly seems to be correlated with an increasing "Americanization" of it's means of social control.

But fear not, the whole house of cards will come tumbling down as a consequence of your country's war on everything. And there will be more Straights, and more hysteria and more drugs, and the DEA will continue to do what it has been doing and your incarceration rate will continue to increase, and more kids will continue to commit suicide and there will be more snipers, and there will be more Columbines.
There has to be a real sea change in attitudes, and if the responses to my posts on this web site are anything to go by, it just ain't happening.
Read Robert Fisk
Read John Pilger
above all, Read Chomsky

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Antigen on November 17, 2002, 03:39:00 PM

Quote:

On 2002-11-16 18:15:00, Hamiltonf wrote:As a matter of fact a number of my my neighbours are refugees from the States.

And, while working in medical communications (i.e. answering service), I encountered a whole lot of wealthy Canadians who came to Florida for medical care while poor Americans migrate to Canada for medeocre tax funded medical care. The trouble with American healthcare in the last half century or so is that it has become more and more like socialist systems. I'm not that old, not even 40. And yet I can remember routine physicals for $10/head. My dad held one job, maybe did a side job here and there for extra cash, and well supported the 8 of us. That simply can't be done these days, unless the bread winner is fortunate enough to land up with a $100k income or better.

Quote:

On 2002-11-16 18:15:00, Hamiltonf wrote:But don't worry It's clear that KIDS and The Straights did a better job of indoctrinating you than you realise. The Bushes, the Semblers, the Straights -- all part of the same repressive regime, right?, land of the free, home of the brave, right? With an incarceration rate higher than anything under the Soviet regime?

Right, with the primary theme being coercion. We're forced to pay through our taxes for whatever the political professionals define as professional medical care while being prohibited, under threat of incarceration, from making our own medical choices.

I think I liked it better when medical care was relatively affordable and controled by doctors and patients. The more government gets involved in our medical system the more fouled up it gets.

Quote:

On 2002-11-16 18:15:00, Hamiltonf wrote:
As for the people moving south of the border, that's actually a myth. As my son said after spending a couple of months working down there "It's a hell-hole, we have a much better quality of life." Again, go see "Bowling for Columbine" You guys are self-destructing. You may not see it yet but consider what Jeb Bush's daughter is trying to tell you? Ask why, and look in the mirror.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 17, 2002, 04:08:00 PM

What shall we do?
What a gloomy message. Civilization is doomed in America. What will you Canadians do then? I guess ya'll can have Detroit and Cleveland.
Get a grip. Darwin was right. 4 billion years of it right on Discovery channel. Think about this.
Would the sharks and cockroaches have had a few hundred MILLION year run if they had carried the weak amongst them upon the shoulders? No. Our system strives to strike a balance between the inhumanity inherent in nature(social darwinism/libertarianism/anarchist baloney) and the desire to help the weaker among us altruistically(communism/socialism/progressive/marxist baloney).
It is not perfect. We have had our problems. We have made many enemies with our arrogance and intrusion worldwide.
But our system has sheparded us to prosperity as a whole, many share in the wealth, our food, water, air is safer than most places. Our roads rock, all have reliable electric power 24 hours a day (try that trick in 70% of the world), internet connection choices, cheap reliable long distance phone,etc etc.

I think there MAY still be some in Europe who remember our contribution to a favorable outcome in 2 world wars.
I wish we could all hang out, hit the bong and sing folk songs, but most of the world is tribal, hate for someone nearby filled people. They don't read Noam Chomsky OR Friedman.
Lemme guess, your not a big Ayn Rand fan?
Bill
"America...it doesn't suck." PJ O'Rourke

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Froderik on November 17, 2002, 04:50:00 PM

Alright I'm going to have to put my 2¢ into all of this socio-political jibber-jabber...I heard of a case in England where a farmer defended his property against someone who was continuously robbing his home and getting away with it. He shot (and possibly killed) the man while in his house. Because of the (anti) gun laws over there, this poor guy ROTS IN JAIL - what do you think of that, Hamiltonf? And by the way, which branch of straight were you in? (if you've stated this already forgive me)

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Hamiltonf on November 17, 2002, 06:12:00 PM

You're bringing up ONE anecdote against the overwhelming odds of your country's own statistics!
Ayn Rand would have loved the Straights.

Try this:
By John Chuckman

(YellowTimes.org) ? Pat Buchanan recently called Canada "a haven for terrorists," a place with lax security. His words struck me as a bit odd considering that not one of the Gang of Nineteen involved in 9/11 came from, or even through, Canada. They all entered the United States from other places, and they all had American-issued visas.

It would be hard to imagine a more grotesque example of lax security than an attack on America's temple to the military, the Pentagon. Letting that happen when you spend $30 billion a year on intelligence and hundreds of billions on defense surely qualifies as world-class laxness, probably good enough to claim a place in the Guinness Book of Records, if it weren't just so downright embarrassing.

The military drum-beat crowd likes to ignore that little fact as they harangue those who don't agree that police-state measures or, for that matter, blowing up women and children in Baghdad, just naturally follow from the events of 9/11.

Pat's crowd also ignores the fact that, after decades of hijackings and threats to commercial aircraft in America, and despite clear warnings there were people out there with some very unpleasant intentions (recall Mr. Clinton's fleet of cruise missiles hurled at camps in Afghanistan), the American Congress never bothered with such elementary new security measures as strengthening cockpit doors or improving the professionalism of airport-security staff.

Yes, the entire horror of 9/11 could have been avoided by a Congress that had just done its job. But that's not the approach with which Pat's political crowd is comfortable. Sensible preparations? 'Why, boy, that sounds distinctly like interferin' in private enterprise, maybe even some of that there socialism!'

No, Pat's crowd waits for disaster and then responds by shoveling tens of billions at idiotic, irrelevant military schemes and working overtime to unravel the very parchment of the Bill of Rights. Any resemblance to fascism is strictly coincidental.

Pat contemptuously refers to Canada as "Soviet Canukistan." He never pauses to explain what that goofy epithet means, but it does reveal something about his thinking. You could fairly deduce that in Pat's mental atlas, America then assumes the relative position of Soviet Russia.

But what's meaning to a guy like Pat? You go for the cheap wisecrack and race on to make the next one. The phrase, of course, has the earmarks of Rush Limbaugh's pimply-teenager-at-camp, self-satisfied snickering, but that's all you require for success in America's television politics. No wonder Americans are so poorly informed: fraternity boy acts pass for political commentary.

Canada is a "freeloading" country according to Pat, lapping up luxurious security courtesy of the U.S. defense budget, a regular hog at the trough. People like Pat never explain what it is from which Canada is being defended .

If it makes Americans feel good, Canadians are willing to say they are grateful for being defended, but, in secret, many scratch their heads about for what it is they are supposed to be grateful. Canada does not have a serious enemy in the world. The only country in a good position to threaten Canada is, in fact, the United States, but that does make a convincing argument to keep right on saying thanks for all that defense, especially with Pat's crowd running the place.

The world, quite correctly, does not regard Canada as a partner in America's uglier plots and stunts, and Canada enjoys a significant margin of safety from terror simply by virtue of that fact.

America makes a lot of enemies pushing people around, claiming high ideals all the while. Nobody likes a bully, and most people are repelled by noisy hypocrisy. America maintains its bloated, costly, and increasingly dangerous armed forces precisely to do all that pushing and protect itself from the consequences.

Looked at in this way, calls by Americans like Buchanan - or for that matter America's current, intrusive Ambassador to Ottawa, Mr. Cellucci - for Canada to spend a great deal more on defense really amount to demands that Canada subsidize America's efforts to impose its often poorly informed and generally selfish notions on the world.

I once read an article written by a man who grew up with Buchanan. He described what an unpleasant street-tough Pat was, a bare-knuckles troublemaker who roamed his neighborhood territory, always ready for an argument and a fight - a regular backyard brown shirt.

That story might not be worth relating so many years later, had Pat demonstrated some capacity for growth, but he hasn't, not a bit. He's too old and puffy to use his fists now, so he's substituted his mouth. And if you listen carefully to what he says and the way he says it, you just might recognize the shrill and painful sounds of a badly abused child

[John Chuckman is former chief economist for a large Canadian oil company. He has many interests and is a lifelong student of history. He writes with a passionate desire for honesty, the rule of reason, and concern for human decency. He is a member of no political party and takes exception to what has been called America's "culture of complaint" with its habit of reducing every important issue to an unproductive argument between two simplistically defined groups. John regards it as a badge of honor to have left the United States as a poor young man from the South Side of Chicago when the country embarked on the pointless murder of something like three million Vietnamese in their own land because they happened to embrace the wrong economic loyalties. He lives in Canada, which he is fond of calling "the peaceable kingdom."]

John Chuckman encourages your comments: [email protected]

Oh, and are you going to tell me that any resemblance between Straight Inc, KIDS and Hitler Jugend are purely coincidental?

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Hamiltonf on November 17, 2002, 06:18:00 PM

Be nice to hit the bong and hang out. I was never in the Straights but was referred to this site by someone who knew a person that had been.

Which prompts me to ask a question. What proportion of the inmates were black? Photo's I've seen are entirely peopled with whites.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2002, 06:32:00 PM

Re: Hamilton...
I think what the guy is saying in part came up on another thread:
"Narcotics have been systematically scapegoated and demonized. The idea that anyone can use drugs and escape a horrible fate is an anathema to these idiots. I predict that in the near future right-wingers will use drug hysteria as a pretext to set up an international police apparatus."
--William S. Burroughs

And haven't you been scapegoated by an American dream turned sour?
The War on drugs to replace the Cold War,
Plan Colombia. Paying the Taliban when they say they stopped growing heroin. Shooting down missionaries in Peru. (oops, that was a mistake)
2 Million people incarcerated, 25% of the world's prisoners?
Get the picture yet?

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 17, 2002, 10:02:00 PM

I saw one in 2 years. 1981.
Uh, since when is Pat Buchannen running anything but his mouth?
Notice we dismissed him to the same woodshed as Robertson and some of our favorite other freaks of American politics like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jax.
Leftist outsiders might quote Buchannen when talking about America, but we have sent him away every time he comes knocking.
We are not stupid.
Bill

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Froderik on November 17, 2002, 10:22:00 PM

"You're bringing up ONE anecdote against the overwhelming odds of your country's own statistics!"

Hamiltonf - I'm sorry, I guess you were looking to get into a 'Canada vs. the US' discussion...I'm not. I like Canada. I'm a Neil young fan. Joni Mitchell's cool, too. All I'm saying is that if your right to bear arms is taken from you, so will ALL of your other rights as well, it's only a matter of time...peace, out - 'Uncle $am'

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ClayL on November 18, 2002, 10:11:00 AM

The only way to arrive at the astounding figure for "children" killed by guns in America is to include "children" up 21 yrs. These are mostly gang related.

Wasn't 1997 BEFORE the total gun ban in GB? Why don't you take the CURRENT crime figure for GB? See http://www.reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml (http://www.reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml) for starters. You can, if you look find a great deal of this kind of information, in both British and US newpapers. The figures for Accidental shootings of children show you are more likely to be seriouly injured playing ping-pong than with a firearm.

YOu know what, I was brought up to believe life is tough, unfair, and if you want ot get ahead you have to be very lucky and want to. Nobody owes me anything. That is America. If you don't like it, stay where you are, but don't criticize us from the outside. I happen to thin that with all our thought this is the best nation in the world and this is just sour grapes from the have nots.

CL

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Antigen on November 18, 2002, 11:59:00 AM

To be fair, and in the interest of not wasting a chance at a good dialog, there are valid reasons for people outside the US to criticize US policy. Gun control is not one of them. But drug policy is.

Right now, our lackeys inside the beltway are threatening unofficial trade sanctions against Canada should they chose to pass on the drug warriors' hysterical advice about drug policy.

And on that point, Hamilton, your argument gets a little pschitzophrenic. When talking about crime and accidental death rates in America, you attribute the cause to lack of gun control. When talking about crime and death rates in GB, you attribute the cause to US exported drug policy. I tend to agree with your latter attribution. It's the black market, not the right of self defense.

I'm all for reeling in US interference in foreign affairs, especially wrt drug policy. But some things work pretty well in this country; the right to bear arms (where it's still respected) is one of those things. Florida reinstituted it's right to brandish, violent crime dropped. DC and NYC banned personal handgun ownership, violent crime skyrocketed. Sure GUN deaths and injuries dropped. Who needs a weapon to rape a woman or mug an old lady when you know good and well that no one for blocks around is armed?

Michael Moore's a great satirist, but a lousy statistician.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Froderik on November 18, 2002, 12:31:00 PM

Man, Ginger - you sure nailed that one... After I posted last night in defense of the 2nd, I thought, "yeah, but I forgot to comment on the drug laws...) As usual, your response was thoroughly on-target. I agree, our drug laws flat-out SUCK. The see-eye-ay take their payoffs and let in rivers of coke & heroin across our borders, and then they turn around and want to implement the WOD (war on drugs) against the lower heads on the totem pole, all the way down to US.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Hamiltonf on November 18, 2002, 01:25:00 PM

I'm happy I provoked some reasonable discussion. I actually subscribe to Reason magazine, so I can see where you are coming from. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to discuss this further right now. One thought, though, My son, who is now in China, (and introduced me to "Reason", by the way, is telleng me that he feels VERY safe, and that the Chinese he has met seem incredibly capitalistic -- go figure. )
I still don't see Americans facing up to the real answers to the question "why do they hate us?"
later........

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ClayL on November 18, 2002, 03:26:00 PM

Hmmmm,

I guess the reason I argue the gun restriction stuff is that I well and truly believe our drug policy is immature and childish. The only issue I have with drugs is the crack-heads who smashed in one of my car windows to steal my camera and my wife's purse. This meant I had to go down to the bank change the bank account, cancel the credit cards, change the locks on the house, and she had to get a new drivers lic., SS card and so on.

I have a problem with this and I suspect y'all would also. I also suspect that said crack-head would not be smashing in my car window if he could go to the corner liquor store and buy a couple of well taxed rocks. Perhaps he could afford so much of the new and inexpensive rocks that he'd OD and go on to the next life, but that's Darwin rearing his ugly head again.

My point, through all the sarcasism is, that if the crack-head wants to be able to smoke his life away, that is the crack-head's decision and I am quite content to let them skip down that merry path. Perhaps they'll get off the path perhaps they won't. A person has a right to choose what they want to do with their life. That person also has to be willing to accept the consequences of his/her decisions. I really believe no sane person would smoke crack, but I don't know as I have never done that.

CL

[ This Message was edited by: ClayL on 2002-11-18 12:31 ]

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: METALGOD8 on November 18, 2002, 07:30:00 PM

Hi CLay, I was just curious to know if you would have blown that guys head off had you caught him! I think I would have. GUNS! YEAH! !!!!!!!!! MG8

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 18, 2002, 10:07:00 PM

I can't go to work today...
...the little voices said to stay home and clean the guns.
Bill

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: the other anonymous on November 18, 2002, 10:20:00 PM

guns suck. y'all are nuts. I am nuts, and cannot ever own one.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on November 18, 2002, 11:48:00 PM

Quote:

On 2002-11-18 16:30:00, METALGOD8 wrote:

Hi CLay, I was just curious to know if you would have blown that guys head off had you caught him! I think I would have. GUNS! YEAH! !!!!!!!!! MG8

To shoot a crack head is just a plain waste of good lead, and a complete hasle with the cops. Save those actions for the more voilent criminals.

For the crack head, a good skull cracking with a bat would be perfectly acceptable.

Now excuse me while I clean my..........Is that a rabbit?????? Yeeeeee Hawwwww!!

A good shot means never having to say your sorry :wink:

[ This Message was edited by: SysAdmin on 2002-11-18 20:52 ]

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Antigen on November 19, 2002, 12:09:00 AM

Thanks!

Quote:

On 2002-11-18 09:31:00, AlexL wrote:Man, Ginger - you sure nailed that one... After I posted last night in defense of the 2nd, I thought, "yeah, but I forgot to comment on the drug laws...) As usual, your response was thoroughly on-target. I agree, our drug laws flat-out SUCK. The see-eye-ay take their payoffs and let in rivers of coke & heroin across our borders, and then they turn around and want to implement the WOD (war on drugs) against the lower heads on the totem pole, all the way down to US.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on November 19, 2002, 12:52:00 AM

From the recent posts, could it be, with the hatred here that Straight Inc., KIDS, and the American Way -- The training ground for terrorists.
Your all crazy.

In The United States
The Source Of Terror November 18, 2002
By Saul Landau

"Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will be America?s heart, her benedictions and her prayers. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy...by once enlisting under other banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself, beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy and ambition. She might become dictatress of the world; she would not longer be the ruler of her own spirit."

John Quincy Adams, July 4, 1821

Terror... is any act which is done to fill with intense fear or to coerce by threat or force.

Rogers v. State, Tex.Cr.App., 687 S.W.2d 337, 341.

"Act of terrorism" means an activity that involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life ...intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping.

18 U.S.C.A. § 3077.

We live in terrifying times. But into what context can we Americans place the terrorism we?ve recently experienced? Until 9/11 Americans could pretend that we were different, that God or something had truly blessed us. Yes, Al Qaeda tormentors tried to use an explosive-laden truck to blow up the World Trade Center in 1993. But after 9/11/01, Americans woke up from their collective nightmare. We now share the common experience, as Edward Said put it, of "violence and terrorism dominating consciousness."

The world reached out in sympathy. Good will poured forth for the American people -- from friends and purported enemies -- as if people understood that the innocent Americans have finally lost their ingenuousness. Even Cuba and other so-called "rogue states" expressed their commitment to fight against this kind of terrorism.

But President Bush, who cowered in fear after the foul deeds had been done instead of being at ground zero where the leader belonged, soon turned his cowardice into arrogance: the rest of the world is with us or against us on our terms. Instead of discussing in Congress and other informal bodies the nature of the threat and the best means of combating it, Bush bombed Afghanistan to take out the training centers Al-Qaeda used to prepare the terrorist bombers.

As for the terrorists? motives, the great psychologist George W. Bush simply pronounced: "They hate because we?re free." Then, he rammed through Congress bills -- like the Patriot Act -- that make us less free. Flag waving replaced discussion in Congress and much of the media. "They are out to destroy us" became the leitmotif for the Bush political opera.

They? I asked myself. The Muslims I know love America, despite the actions of the US government. Jealous of our wealth or freedom? They adore our way of life. Educated Arab leaders ask why the US government acts so heartlessly when dealing with the third world people who love the United States.

Obviously, the bin Laden and Wahabi sects who have organized terror cells feel differently, but in just over a year the US government has reversed the outpouring of international good will. Now, when I travel to Europe, Latin America or the Middle East, I find anti-Americanism -- not toward people, but directed against the Bush government.

"It is as if," a Spanish writer related, "Americans have finally experienced the terror that most of the world has known. But before 9/11 Americans could not relate to the terrorized feelings that people in the rest of the world have long since internalized. I?m not sure they can today. Except, of course, for the terror felt by Israelis."

The media does dramatize Israeli suffering, but if one looks at history one sees that at almost any given time in the past much of the world?s population has lived in terror -- of nature?s power, plague, famine, war.

World War II cost some 50 million lives. It ended when the United States dropped two nuclear bombs on Japanese cities. Then came the carnage to Americans in Korea (1950-53) and Vietnam (1960-75). Multiply by one hundred or more to get the figures of Asian casualties in those wars. Think of the horrors perpetrated by the French in colonized Algeria in the late 1950s, by the British over centuries in subduing their colonized people. Then, in recent decades, Muslim fanatics in independent Algeria have slain thousands of their own "heathen" brothers and sisters.

Think of the countless wars in colonial and post-colonial Africa, some instigated by the CIA, others by Europeans and Africans themselves. Thanks to war technology, terrorism -- which began with the 1793 Reign of Terror after the French revolution in the name of Reason -- has now become universal and completely unreasonable. Until recently, only Americans on their home soil had escaped from the daily fear and pain that Europeans knew when daily bomb blasts in the name of Irish, Basque or Corsican movements killed those who happened to be near the bomb.

Then on April 19, 1995 came the Oklahoma City bombing of the Murrah Federal building, by 100% American Timothy McVeigh and his army buddy Terry Nichols, from very middle America and trained by the US military. They hated us also supposedly because the US government (FBI) had massacred the Branch Davidian sect in 1993. From then on, Americans sensed that mad bombers could wear a "made in the US" label as well, and that US military training could serve the cause of any and all terrorists.

Right and left terminology made little sense in the post Cold War era. What label would one place on the IRA or Basque ETA or, for that matter, on Timothy McVeigh? "Terrorist" became the official nomenclature to those -- with exceptions, like anti-Castro Cubans who remain "Cuban patriots" -- who practice violence against the state, any state. Anti-terrorism would then apply to all military and police actions carried out supposedly against terrorists. Responding to the 9/11 attacks, the US military bombed Afghanistan to destroy the terrorist training camps of Al-Qaeda, to make us less vulnerable to trained terrorists. It bombed and missiled Afghanistan, killing thousands of civilians in order to get -- unsuccessfully -- Osama bin Laden and his coterie of terrorists.

What might have been principally a police action to find and destroy organizations bent on wreaking horror on western societies, and pro-Western governments in their own areas of the world, became a military operation.

After more than 13 months, Congress and the media still do not ask: Did we hit the right target? Did we use the right methods? Are we safer from terrorism today or have we mis-focused our efforts? Will one of the government?s dire predictions about imminent terrorist attacks from Al-Qaeda actually take place or will Attorney General John Ashcroft become the little boy who cried wolf?

Since 9/11 only two terrorist attacks occurred on US soil. The anthrax-letter fiend remains at large, although the FBI has destroyed one scientist?s career when it hinted, without evidence, that he might be the perpetrator. In any case, the FBI now assumes that the anthrax killer worked out of a US lab and was trained and educated in the USA, not in Afghanistan.

Then came the DC area sniper, now identified as possibly two men, the older being John Allen Williams, who adopted the new last name "Muhammad." Police arrested Williams and his sidekick, John Lee Malvo, on October 26 in connection with the sniper shootings that had terrorized the residents of the Washington metropolitan area over the previous three week period. Ten of their victims have died, three remain in critical condition. Some of the area schools closed, others kept the kids inside, people prayed and hid inside their cars as they pumped gas since the sniper seemed to favor fueling stations for his attack zone. For a few weeks the people of the area forgot about Saddam Hussein and George W. Bush?s threats to change his regime.

Area theorists had predicted without fear, or fact, that the sniper might be linked to Al-Qaeda. A police profiler had him as an angry, rejected white man who probably didn?t learn his ambushing skills in the military, because military snipers go for head shots and this mysterious killer had shot some of his victims in the body.

But an October 24 UPI story, based on a Defense Department source, reported that Williams-Muhammad qualified as an expert marksman in the U.S. Army with the M-16. "Expert" meaning the highest level of Army marksmanship. The shooter must "knock down" at least 36 targets with 40 rounds, from distances of up to 300 meters. Williams also had expert status in throwing hand grenades. He had served in the Persian Gulf War and prior to that was on active duty in the Army from Nov. 6, 1985 to April 26, 1994, when he was discharged as a sergeant at Ft. Lewis, Washington, with decorations on his chest: the Southwest Asia Service Medal and the Kuwait Liberation Medal for his participation in the Persian Gulf War, the Army Achievement Medal, the Army Service Ribbon, the National Defense Service Medal, and the Non-Commission Officer Professional Development Ribbon.

In addition, the accused sniper also served in the Louisiana National Guard from 1978 to 1985, and in the Oregon guard from 1994 to 1995. The army trained him as a combat engineer, a field that includes mine laying, removal, demolition and combat construction. The army also taught him metal working.

Ironically, the Washington Post, in contrast, called him "a mediocre soldier who was once convicted of striking a sergeant in the head." Did the Post not investigate his army record? They quoted a former platoon leader saying that he wasn?t "anything special," but didn?t check his record.

The sniper, like Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh, did not receive his killer training in Afghanistan or Iraq. The US military trained him to kill, like millions before and after him. The military?s job is to take non-killers and train them to kill -- with advanced weaponry.

We know little about Williams-Muhammad?s motivation or the role of his teenage sidekick. But we do know that the sniper follows a long line of serial killers that seem to grow in our fertile and lethal soil. We have lots of angry, depressed, and downright crazy people in this country who have easy access to weapons and know how to use them.

When police revealed the sniper?s identity and the origins of his violence training, I thought again of John Quincy Adams? warning about not going abroad "in search of foreign monsters to destroy." Did he have premonitions about Afghanistan and Iraq? HE CERTAINLY KNEW THAT WE HAD ENOUGH MONSTERS AT HOME TO KEEP US BUSY FOR A LONG TIME.

Enjoy.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: dreammagician on November 19, 2002, 07:14:00 AM

I hate guns, sure I have my trusty 44 which will blow your head off, but I still hate having to use one as a scare tactic. I prefer dealing with people straight up. All my friends know how I feel and generally I don't intimidate people with power. I love practicing law and too many people depend on weapons when our best one is our mouth. Straight sucked and will always suck in my opinion.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ClayL on November 19, 2002, 09:37:00 AM

Most likely not, unless I felt my life was being threatened. If I thought that about the wife and kids, yeah I'd have punched their ticket right quick. Had someone steal my car once and was ridong my bike (imagine that) shortly thereafter and passed my car pulling into a pawn shop (they were pawning my golf clubs). Well the court house is about a block away so I rode on down there and told them to go and get my car. Can you believe they had the nerve to ask where I had gotten the bicycle? Well they got my car and found three people in it and not one of them went to jail. Why? the police never did give me a good answer. Leter they caught the fellow I had signed a warrant for and I sent him to prison. Tried to get his crack smoking head in treatment, but our state doesn't allow for that. Sending a person to prison does nobady any good.

CL

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ClayL on November 19, 2002, 09:41:00 AM

I'll have you know my head psrinker says I'm perfectly sane. I would submit that is you have enough sense to think your insane, your probably not.

CL

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Hamiltonf on November 19, 2002, 02:12:00 PM

Interesting... As a lawyer what's your position on the International Criminal Court and bringing American international terrorists to justice?
Oh, but I forgot. Do unto others first.
Kissinger
Bush

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Antigen on November 19, 2002, 05:16:00 PM

There are a lot of Americans who would love to see some of our home-grown international terrorists brought to justice. Believe that. But the majority, unfortunately, just refuse to believe, despite all of the evidence, that there is, was or ever could be such a thing as a rogue US government or US sanctioned terrorism. More and more are coming around. But it's an excruciating process.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Antigen on November 19, 2002, 05:38:00 PM

Just because you're crazy doesn't mean they're not out ta' getchya!

I don't know if I'm really crazy or not. Changed, no doubt. More cynical than before, no doubt. Less likely to invest in hopes and dreams that I understand profoundly can be just wiped away at the whim of some altruistic tyrant on a highly unpleasant flight of fancy. But that's not necessarily a crazy world view. Just realistic, seeing as how it's happened to me before.

Are we terrorists? I don't think so. All these years and not one act against the perpetrators more violent or serious than a bottle full of piss thrown at their place of business. (I know NOthing!)

I can almost guarantee, though, that those paranoid freaks at DFAF have used the word to describe us. And that gets less funny with each passing round of propaganda.

Quote:

On 2002-11-18 21:52:00, Anonymous wrote:From the recent posts, could it be, with the hatred here that Straight Inc., KIDS, and the American Way -- The training ground for terrorists. Your all crazy.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on November 19, 2002, 06:05:00 PM

By definition of the Webster collegiate dictionary:

Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1795
: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
- ter·ror·ist /-&r-ist/ adjective or noun
- ter·ror·is·tic /"ter-&r-'is-tik/ adjective

This would describe EVERY drug treatment program that I have ever heard of. YES, even AA.

Who is a terrorist? Well I guess you could say Mel and Betty Sembler are terrorist (and particularly evil ones at that). But for all intent for that matter, you could call you local police officers terrorist.

Hell you could even go so far as to even call the clergy terrorist. After all do they not preach the fear of GOD's wrath? The glory of eternal happiness in heaven is not enough to keep people in the church, or even in the faith, so that must resort to the FEAR of misfortune to those that do not follow.

It is on my opinion that is how all society is run, by fear. Why do you drive the speed limit? Why do you not trespass on unknown property?

There could be no law without fear or reprisal. So in short, most all of us are terrorists to a degree, some more so then others. And we are in the same boat of having our lives run by terrorists, as our Goberment is one of the best at keeping us in line with the fear of what will happen to us, or God forbid, our children.

Now Be good, and pay your taxes. Don't speed, and oh yea, SEND YOUR KIDS to OUR EDUCATION CAMPS to learn the 'TRUTH', or we will be at YOUR door!

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: dreammagician on November 20, 2002, 10:08:00 AM

That's funny, a bottle of piss thrown at the window, great goin. I like the idea of shitting in a sock and wipping it around and throwing it in group. Oh well, those were the good ole days, right. Right on Ruth Anns' face. That might piss her off alittle.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ClayL on November 20, 2002, 10:38:00 AM

I would think right off the bat there is some trivialization of the word terror going on. To me terror, implys the a time stopping serious car wreck, or the hiss of a bullet as it goes by you down range. Terror is the real fear that your life, or the lives of those you love are threatened. A terrorist is the middle eastern sociopath who happens to be Islamic, it is the "Christian" fundamentalist who blows up an abortion clinic, it is the white supremacist fruitcake in Idaho. I do not think AA or any drug treatment facility falls into this category, with the possible exception of straight. (Although I did not ever fear for my life, sanity most definitely though.) The thing that separates straight from the others is that straight TOLD you you had a problem based on no demonstrable data. In AA the indivdual has to tell themselves they have a problem. I suspect a good portion of the people that leave AA have found a solution other than AA. I think AA's failing is that the people that leave are looked down upon.

Hmm, I'm rambling....

I don't trespass on others property because, here in the South, I don't want to get shot at. I would call this a good survival instinct and respect for others property. After all, I don't want uninvited people on my property. Most Americans think the speed limit is stupid so they don't follow it. Goes back to Locke, "Government is only with the consent of the governed." There are plenty of bloody and nasty cival wars that show the right of rebellion. It is built into the principles of Confusus. Something like a rebellion is just if it succeeds, fits in with Devine Will.

There is also a growing backlash against public education. Most Americans support school vouchers, the NAACP and NEA be damned. Americans do not like the social engineering going on the the public schools to the point more than a few parents are quite happy to sacrifice their time and teach their children at home. Knowing the magnitude of the commitment, I believe this is not considered lightly. The States do not like this with California being the worst in not even acknowledging this Right of the Parent and in some cases prosecuting parents for deliquency and telling them they are poor parents.

Our idiots in Washington are stubborn, slow, lazy and greedy, but they do understand they have to be elected. If the people scream loud enough and the politicians think they will have to get a real job, the politicians can and do effect change. Slowly and not in the time frame of any normal job, but things do change.

CL

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on November 20, 2002, 11:39:00 AM

Quote:

On 2002-11-20 07:38:00, ClayL wrote:
Terror is the real fear that your life, or the lives of those you love are threatened.

I hate to disagree with you, but unfortunately there are things that are far worse then death. Death is but a quick end in which there is a finite amount of punishment/pain. How about having your children taken from you and put into foster care (where many have been sexualy asualted in the past). Woudl you not call the fear of this worse then the fear of death?

Quote:

On 2002-11-20 07:38:00, ClayL also wrote:
There is also a growing backlash against public education. Most Americans support school vouchers, the NAACP and NEA be damned.

I am in the middle of this backlash as I home school my kids. But so far my opinion does not seem to stop authority from using coercion and the strong arm of the law to attempt to get our children back into public school. I was just reading about a case the other day where in IOWA an area superintendent sent truant officers to a home schoolers home, and threatened them with jail, for truancy. Unfortunately I an unable to find the story again but here are some examples:

The department considers as truant children who are home-schooled by their parents who do not have a credential, whether or not the parents have filed the affidavit. (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/education/20020926-9999_7m26homeskul.html)

Quote:

On 2002-11-20 07:38:00, ClayL also wrote:
Our idiots in Washington are stubborn, slow, lazy and greedy, but they do understand they have to be elected. If the people scream loud enough and the politicians think they will have to get a real job, the politicians can and do effect change. Slowly and not in the time frame of any normal job, but things do change.

The problem with this is that with change comes yet MORE rules and MORE regulations for people to live by, and that is the last thing we need. What we do need them to do is repeal laws, not create new ones. And for the life of me, I cant seem to rember the last law that was repealed? (hm... mmust think on that one)

Most astutely pointed out by our forfathers, in the Deceleration of Independence over 225 years ago:

experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed

I think you may be mistaken, while people may cast the vote, the media is who tells them to do so, and the lobbyist pay for it. So in short it is big business and big money that is running this country and making the rules for the rest of us. Even in our 'Democratic' Society the Majority does not rule, if so Al Gore would be the duly elected president (I voted libertarian so don't even start down road that I am just a whiner).

It is the Darwin in me that says we need to eliminate this level of interference from Goberment in our lives. Let natural selection and common sense rule. We could go a long way in solving violent crime with MORE vigilantism, and corpRat crime with LESS consumerism.

I don't know if anyone has seen one of the latest Nike commercials where they have a 'group' of people running through the wilderness like a heard of cattle (*me thinks sheep*). And All I can think of is they can call people sheep right to their face, and those same people will go out and buy the product. Only in America!

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ClayL on November 20, 2002, 01:33:00 PM

Quote:

On 2002-11-20 08:39:00, SysAdmin wrote:... And All I can think of is they can call people sheep right to their face....

I heard one person refer to this as Sheeple...

As for the rest of the post I agree but from a different angle.

CL

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 20, 2002, 07:55:00 PM

Sounds like a weird meat-like product from those amazing folks at Hormel.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on November 20, 2002, 11:58:00 PM

Do you think it is legal to hunt Sheeple. I just move to PA and am a little short on cash. Fresh meat would be a nice change of pace :smile:

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: dreammagician on November 21, 2002, 03:25:00 AM

I know we must have a topic to rap about. Terror, let me think, could terror be the thought of waking up and not being able to move. How about letting others mess with your head. Maybe, losing your so called loved ones. Could terror be living alone on the streets with only your pocket knife to defend yourself from people. Maybe having to sleep in your car for years until you can make enough money to actually afford a place of your own. I know, perhaps terror is being told I love you when the reality is I will kick you out on the streets and spit on you in the name of straight. Wait a minute, a brainstorm. Take lots and lots of drugs, mix them up and inject them in your arm and hope to die. hmmmm, maybe I got something. Oh well, at least there is someone out there, because if there weren't this message would never get received. On a serious note, terror is when I look in the mirror and am reminded that no one on the face of this earth can ever change the way things worked out in my life.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 21, 2002, 09:41:00 AM

Terror can be breaking into a car to sleep in and being caught in the morning by the owners. Ice cold Marietta night as a split from straight. I didnt know how to drive or i would ve stolen the car.
I hauled ass and got some funny looks.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Antigen on November 21, 2002, 11:44:00 AM

I used to have nightmares that I was waking up in a foster home, just like back in the bad old days, gradually tearing myself away from much needed sleep, trying to remember if I was a newcomer or oldcomer.... only I was an adult. And my kids were newcomers. And I anguished over how much of the truth to tell them about trying to find a way out. I had to tell them enough to sustain them, so they'd resist the brainwashing. But always mindful that they might just turn me in.

This http://www.darpa.mil/iao/ (http://www.darpa.mil/iao/) , together with the knowledge that the founders of Straight, Inc. have put two presidents in the white house, gives me a good dose of terror.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 21, 2002, 11:15:00 PM

Good catch mrs ginger. John Poindexters latest intrusive idea. HOW THE FUCK CAN A GUY BUSTED AND CONVICTED OF LYING TO CONGRESS END UP IN CHARGE OF THIS ORWELLIAN SCHEME?
I love the logo too...they aren't even shy about what they have done. Most people here and on the street think it is "nessecary" to catch the bad guys.
I HIGHLY recommend that everyone go rent "The Handmaid's Tale" to celebrate the death of our wonderful nations freedom.
Look on the newscasts in that movie. You will find the logo is nearly exactly the same used by the right wing regime in that movie as the one used by DARPA TIA;s site.
Bill

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 21, 2002, 11:26:00 PM

Be careful with that link on DARPA. I run a beastly computer with XP professional, a decent firewall, a few other nifty programs and and that site attacked me when I started digging around on the personel page. First it tried to run an active acrobat program, which is rare and rich according to a hacker or two I know. That exploit has not been utilized elsewhere to my knowledge.
Then my sys locked up for two minutes(which NEVER happens to this puter) and low and behold, as I danced the ctrl/alt/del dance, nothing would bring it back. I finally got the taskmanager up, and low and behold, I was running a new AP from darpa on my machine. LOVELY SHIT.
BEWARE. These people are REAL, and they are crawling into your sys too!!
Bill

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Froderik on November 22, 2002, 12:40:00 PM

One question: What do you know about this "active acrobat program?" What sort of file ends up running itself on your machine? a pdf file? I guess we definitely need to use a firewall when browsing this site, eh?

If you haven't yet, you should try using the Tiny Personal Firewall (free download)

http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/file_d ... 051,00.asp (http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/file_description/0,fid,8051,00.asp)

(This link will have to be highlighted and pasted)

[ This Message was edited by: AlexL on 2002-11-22 10:02 ]

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 22, 2002, 11:11:00 PM

When I clicked a link , it started to open Acrobat reader, which failed. I use it all the time, newer version, doesn't fail for me. Next, I got a fail to initialize properly type windows message, followed by lockup/sys busy. With 1 gig + AMD, I rarely get "busy" problems, but my browser wouldnt close, taskman wouldnt open, and my network traffic monitor hit the roof and stayed there, hard drive whirring away.
This kinda shit makes me nervous.
I had taskmon showing a "pdf file /Acrobat" running, but no window open or minimized. Strange. NO installed new program or searchable new files.
I run with act X & scripting off/java off and cookies off. Was using msie 5.whatever. Any geeks have a clue. Clay?? You're a sys guy. Anybody?
Bill

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: gagesteele on November 23, 2002, 03:17:00 AM

Huh. Well. The site simply wouldn't load anything beyond the index, here. I tried to access all of the items in the left menu, but the buttons kept disappearing as I clicked down the list, and browser behaved as though no action had been performed. Taskman showed no subversive launches; firewall had nothing to say to me; no record of any mischief logged; no system or browser freezes or hangs.

Win XP Pro
IE 6 [most options "prompt me"]
NPF 2002 [moderately paranoid and chatty about it]
Panicware Pop-up Stopper [enabled]

Dunno what to tell you, guys. Something I've got set must be keeping whatever it is they're doing totally at bay. Score one for the home team, I guess.

Sara
Amity School Founding Class, 1988

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ClayL on November 25, 2002, 10:48:00 AM

Went to the DARPA Site and everything loaded fine. I think becasue you have cookies turned off and/or java disabled is the reason it failed. Seeing is this is a DOD site I would suspect they are doing IP address logging. I'm coming at things through a Cisco PIX Firewall so I don't really worry to much about port scans and such. I'm completely stealthed. When running a port scan my ports don't even report they exist. Black Ice does this also and is one of the best personal security products out there.

CL

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Froderik on November 25, 2002, 12:33:00 PM

Clay, Do you know if a firewall such as TPF* is able to conceal ports at all? (Not all of us can afford to go out and buy the best.) And I'm just curious, is a 'port scan' something that can be done from the average workstation? Or just from a router?

*Tiny Personal Firewall

Thanks, FR13

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: gagesteele on November 25, 2002, 02:21:00 PM

Clay: Might be JAVA, though it didn't prompt me. Cookies were actually on at the time because I'd been fiddling at neopets. Yes, neopets. :razz:

Alex: I don't think Tiny is made anymore, is it? Seems to me I heard that a while back. I don't know much about it anyway. Sygate and ZoneAlarm both have free versions, and they aren't terrible. Still, a fair lot of their stealthy stuff is only available in the "pro" versions. You could give them a whirl; can't hurt to try. Or, if you're into that sort of thing, there's always Kazaa.

Learn more about port scans: Tech Target

Sara
Amity School Founding Class, 1988

[edited: that long url wouldn't post properly.]

[ This Message was edited by: gagesteele on 2002-11-25 11:22 ]

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Froderik on November 25, 2002, 02:35:00 PM

This is the site where one could download a free version of TPF. I haven't tried those others yet, maybe I will. I didn't think to check techtarget...doh!...If you use Kazaa, you might want to install Ad-Aware...LOL

[ This Message was edited by: AlexL on 2002-11-25 11:39 ]

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 25, 2002, 04:55:00 PM

Hey Clay, I turned all my microsquish scripty crap on, and the darpa site is okay.
I run BI defender (have for a year or two) and agree it works well for the price. I just wish I had Clear Ice to go with it...
Who knows what happened. This machine has never locked up since I pulled my Linux/win98/Xp menegerie and just run XP now. I guess life is good now.
Bill.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ClayL on November 26, 2002, 09:03:00 AM

Yes a port scan can be run from any PC. There are scripts that are redily available that run all the most common hacker attack features. Some that run some of the more complex hacker utilities. Beware, port scans are readily detectable and the better intrusion detection systems can and will track you down and put the smack-down on you.... I don't know about you, but I like a good night's sleep without the company of the FBI.

I may be mistaken, but I think there is a personal version of black ice that is inexpensive. There is also a trial version.

I really hate the microsquash stuff because you can't really tell what it is doing in the background. Heck, the stuff could be passing all my personal information and I'd have no idea. Mac and UNIX kick the shit out of microsquash.

CL

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: hedwigfan on November 26, 2002, 09:58:00 AM

This computer jargon is harder to understand than quantum physics!!

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Froderik on November 26, 2002, 10:23:00 AM

Clay wrote:"Beware, port scans are readily detectable and the better intrusion detection systems..."

I was under the impression that the scan would be done on one's own machine...in order to see what activity is going on in & out...so that way you could see if there was anyone 'crawling up your butt' so to speak...as far as the FBI is concerned, why the hell should I have to worry about detecting intrusion on my own PC? You're telling me that they might have a PROBLEM WITH THAT?? Also, when you speak of the MS stuff, are you referring to Firewalls? Does MS make a firewall...duh, I don't know...Heard of NPF, TPF & now Black Ice, but what are you referring to? And have you ever used TPF? Please bear with me, Clay...I'm not yet a Network admin, just a lowly tech who sets up classrooms w/ A+ & NET+ Certs...

hedwigfan - please bear with us...we'll try (at least I will) to keep things simple & in layman's terms...

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 26, 2002, 11:12:00 AM

I think a puter safety thread is in order.
Bill

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on November 26, 2002, 12:33:00 PM

Here, here!

AlexL (not logged in)

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on November 26, 2002, 01:53:00 PM

The guy (Steve Gibson) who original wrote the "adware" program and then later sold it to the ppl who have it now, is a great guy. His site is still up and he has a port sniffer, ready to sniff you out and let you know where you may be vulnerable.

https://grc.com/x/ne.dll?bh0bkyd2 (https://grc.com/x/ne.dll?bh0bkyd2)

I would have atarted a new topic, but I am just tooooooo lazy

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Froderik on November 26, 2002, 02:01:00 PM

I urge anyone reading this to click on the link in the last post RIGHT NOW! You may learn alot about the security of yer 'puter...Since I'm running Tiny Personal Firewall (free version, 2.0.15) ALL ports were STEALTHED! Nothing to worry about. No dogs sniffin' my butt...(sorry, I had to throw that in...) So apparently you don't need to spend $ to keep your sh*t secure. Break out the hooch! I feel like celebrating! YEEHAAH!!!

[ This Message was edited by: AlexL on 2002-11-26 11:02 ]

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: METALGOD8 on November 26, 2002, 07:20:00 PM

Uhm none of that computer stuff would work with no electricity, be thankful that you still have it. I was thinking about making some recycled energy power supply or something to avoid using electricity as we all know it. Hey Clay, do you know anything about the properties of Li batteries? I know when I put one in the campfire it exploded like popcorn with green sparks. LOL.. I get hundreds of them in my recycling business. You still mad at me? Hello? Please respond soon, thanks. What do you do with all the trash computer parts? MG8

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 26, 2002, 10:47:00 PM

I spent 15 minutes writting a jam up thing, and didn't put my password in, and lost the whole thing. I was so pissed. Maybe another day.
Bill

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Froderik on November 26, 2002, 11:28:00 PM

Oh, that sucks...I've done THAT before...man, talk about fury.....hope to hear from you soon..

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on November 27, 2002, 10:43:00 AM

Well, it sounds like Lithium batteries would make a great contribution to my favorite, a camp fuel gas container and some shotgun shells in the fire. We could try diffferent types of batteries to widen the color range....
...Ya think the EPA would mind?
Duck!!
Bill

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Froderik on November 27, 2002, 11:32:00 AM

MG8: "none of that computer stuff would work with no electricity, be thankful that you still have it."

Bless us O lord, & these thy sparks which we are about to receive, thru thy electrodes, thru our skulls, Amen...
But seriously, I've often thought of trying to come up with some kind of backup in case of outage...I've considered a gas-powered generator. Anybody have any other ideas? - FR13

PS - Let's not let the topic of computer security fall to the wayside, either...

[ This Message was edited by: AlexL on 2002-11-27 08:35 ]

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on November 27, 2002, 06:20:00 PM

To solve the electricity problem all you need is....

1) Exercise bike
2) Heavy duty car alternator
3) 12DC -> 120v AC converter

Not only will you be able to run your puter, but you'll get into great shape doing it too.

Extra supplies would be some car batteries to store some of that excess energy for later use, or if ya got kids, you can put them to work :smokin:

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Antigen on November 27, 2002, 06:26:00 PM

OK, lover, lets have a public brawl. I promise to be gentle.

I think we'll be bidding a fond farewell to a lot of what we've come to regard as standard technology in coming years. It's just too complex and too reliant on a distributed and specialized work-force. The electricity is the least of our worries. If everyone has to take more personal responsibility for things like growing, processing and distributing food and keeping warm in the winter, who's going to take the necessary time and resources to manufacture hardware and maintain networks? And what would a more agregarian society have to offer in exchange?

Here's the great irony--the more time you spend on the net, the more you know about how things work and the less you want to be a part of it. Like all good revolutions, I believe the Info Revolution will eat its own children first. That's why we moved from totally dependent, urban So. Florida to a more rural spot in SW PA.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on November 27, 2002, 07:15:00 PM

But we wound up in Semi-urban Pa, with little to no land. And since I am just a techie and that is all I know, and the fact that under the current circumstances we still need to eat, you had better stop reading at this post and start learnin' how to grow some food in this tiny space we live in or we are gona starve.

Besides we own a exercise bike/alternation (converter soon to come) and we have two capable kids to ride :smile:.

Also just because the may not be there later does not mean that the use of computers or computer based equiptment will necessarly fall by the wayside. Unfortunatly The yout of today are to fuckin stupid to give proper change withou a machine tellin them what to do.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Antigen on November 27, 2002, 07:18:00 PM

So.... I should go be a c :razz: ashier then?

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Froderik on November 28, 2002, 11:35:00 AM

Antigen wrote: "Here's the great irony--the more time you spend on the net, the more you know about how things work and the less you want to be a part of it. Like all good revolutions, I believe the Info Revolution will eat its own children first..."

It depends on HOW you use the net. Yeah, if you're just surfin' porn or posting on this site, you may not learn that much about the inner workings of your machine...but heck, I thought you could learn a thing or two from them there uh...tech sites or those whaddyacallits - those uh, newsgroups... "it's not what you do, but the way that you do it..." ::nod:: And, those are some interesting ideas about creating your own electricity :tup:

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Antigen on November 28, 2002, 03:41:00 PM

On 2002-11-28 08:35:00, AlexL wrote:

It depends on HOW you use the net. Yeah, if you're just surfin' porn or posting on this site, you may not learn that much about the inner workings of your machine...but heck, I thought you could learn a thing or two from them there uh...tech sites or those whaddyacallits - those uh, newsgroups... "it's not what you do, but the way that you do it..." ::nod:: And, those are some interesting ideas about creating your own electricity :tup: "

Well yeah, it does depend on what you do with it. Some folks are just so disinclined to think about what's going on, how it all effects them and how they might effect their own fate you could give them free housing right next door to the library of Congress and they'd never even darken the door unless they were giving away a free continental breakfast.

But there's a certain ratio of any group that's just naturally inclined to take on the world in some meaningful way. And the Net just makes it sooo much easier for us to connect with eachother and get at the relevant info.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ClayL on December 02, 2002, 09:24:00 AM

My favorite news group was something like alt.highexplosives. Most of the poeple on it were pretty out there and I wouldn't try their recipes. I did ask a question about some of the bomb tests I have seen and did get an answer from someone I suspect was at the tests. Also searched "high energy weapons" once and found myself in the Lawance Livermore site reading a paper about keeping your fissionable from going critical prior to detonation. (I left quickly)

I guess my point is, I can find any kind of information I want or need if I just take the time to search.

MG8, no I'm not mad.

I think the most exciting form of energy is the Fuel/Cell Technology that is coming on line. Uses electrolosys to convert water into Hydrogen and O2. Very safe as the fuel is water until converted. Very Clean burning. Probably some issues on the engine side. Further, we can tell OPEC to take a flying leap. :lol:

CL

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Tampa survivor on December 02, 2002, 12:44:00 PM

Oh the day when a fuel cell will work. Retrofit me a 1970 Cutlass 442 convertible with the firebreathing 455 cubic inch V-8, with a/c, and ALL the power do-dads,thank you. Ah, to fill her up with water and feel no guilt at the pollution or fuel.
I love the way you can find EVERYTHING on the net. Click 7 times and you are reading the Afghanni Goat-Herders Review or some shit. Too much fun.
Bill

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 10, 2005, 05:46:00 PM

If Corporate America and the government would stop outsourcing all the good paying and technical/professional jobs overseas alot more of us would be able to have a decent life. Working at Walmart is not my idea of job replacement. The cost of living keeps going up but wages are about the same from 20 years ago!
When blue collar jobs started going down the toilet with manufacturing being downsized or closed no one gave a shit. Now its hit white collar jobs and now people start to see it as a problem. The only ones making money are all the scam schools offering computer programming and electronic courses. Good look finding a job after you shelled out big bucks for learning a skill that is no longer needed here.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: nicoleesther on May 10, 2005, 06:16:00 PM

I think I made it beacuse I wanted to prove Straight WRONG. I wanted to prove to my mother that she made a big mistake...which I never even had a drug problemin the first place My therapist after Staright told me that MY "TICKET AWAY FROM MY MOTHER & STRAIGHT was my education"....This is and was MY DRIVE!

Nicole

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: groovy1634 on May 10, 2005, 07:08:00 PM

i had a baby about a year after leaving straight....i worked two jobs and attended night college......i started working in accounts payable, and i made quite a good career for myself....i am about to get my cosmetology license and do hair for a living, which is what i have been wanting to do since i could shampoo my own hair......i am very happy with my life

_________________
I DO HAIR
(http://http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Toothfairy_TP/cat.gif)[ This Message was edited by: groovy1634 on 2005-05-10 17:51 ]

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: linchpin on May 12, 2005, 10:16:00 AM

I sould my soul...My life has been a constant start over...I learned from my schizophrenic mom at a young age..that beatings were good and normal. Then Straight came..and went ..then 11 other rehabs..Then I really became a drug addict..
Drifted around Texas/Mexico ..delivering heroin to support a monster $500 a day habit (that was just to keep me well that wasnt getting high)..oops then I got busted twice. I sat in jail at 24 years old facing 2 major heroin charges (busted 2 times in 3 weeks)
Went to prison..luckily for just about 4 1/2 years.
Got out...got back on heroin..got married..kicked heroin...got divorced ...back on heroin..(see a pattern here?)
Went back on methadone...for 4 years..and now Ive kicked the Methadone habit few weeks ago and trying to break back into the work force. Covered in tattoos..no work history..felony drug charges on record...and mad as a fucking hatter.But Ill make it one way or the other...I always do. Because a linchpin holds within a means to an end

_________________
A linchpin holds within a means to an end
(http://http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Toothfairy_TP/bm.jpg)[ This Message was edited by: linchpin on 2005-05-12 07:17 ][ This Message was edited by: linchpin on 2005-05-12 07:21 ]

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 12:35:00 PM

My guess is the more successful ones have better things to do than whine on this board about stuff that happened a long time ago. You can't get the time back and you can't blame Straight forever. I hate Straight as much as anyone but and some point you have to say it is 20 friggin years later people. Stop whining and get_a_job! :mad:

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 12:40:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-05-12 09:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"My guess is the more successful ones have better things to do than whine on this board about stuff that happened a long time ago. You can't get the time back and you can't blame Straight forever. I hate Straight as much as anyone but and some point you have to say it is 20 friggin years later people. Stop whining and get_a_job! :mad: "

what kind of loser comes on here and tells people to move on. what the fuck are you doing here? fucking pathetic.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 12:42:00 PM

what kind of loser comes on here and tells people to move on. what the fuck are you doing here? fucking pathetic.

The kind that has a job jackass! :lol:

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 12:53:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-05-12 09:42:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The kind that has a job jackass! "

OH, you have a job? that is so damn impressive. loser. get back to work employee.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 12:55:00 PM

OK, I will. Have fun in the welfare line. Doubt anyone that ran straight will care, but cry on brother!

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: linchpin on May 12, 2005, 12:58:00 PM

This isnt about whining its about various peoples courses in life. But if it makes you feel better then say what you will. I dont give a shit your thoughts mean about as much to me as the shit I took this morning..although shitting gives greater gratification than anything you could say.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: linchpin on May 12, 2005, 01:00:00 PM

Oh and Ive never taken handouts from any govt agency..I usually waited for working stiffs like you to leave the strip club and put a gun in your neck and take your shit...
But those were the good ol days...In effect people like you worked hard to buy me dope and whatever else I wanted...

_________________
I dont wanna be the bad guy..I dont wanna do your sleep walk dance anymore
(http://http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Toothfairy_TP/bm.jpg) [ This Message was edited by: linchpin on 2005-05-12 10:01 ]

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 01:03:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-05-12 09:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"OK, I will. Have fun in the welfare line. Doubt anyone that ran straight will care, but cry on brother! "

:lol: who is on welfare here? You keep believing that... I have my own business I run from home... my workday is so short I get bored and come on here to converse with stupid fucks like you. have fun working.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: GregFL on May 12, 2005, 01:07:00 PM

Cayo, Emmys?

Wow, tell him congrats from me!

What field is he in? Music?

That is cool...what an accomplishment.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 01:22:00 PM

If what I said is wrong, it sure struck a cord. Point is wallowing in the past will not produce much, other than feeling sorry for yourself.

Oh, and even hookers can marry someone successful and spend their money. Big deal.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 01:31:00 PM

Uh huh, that's what all the "working" gals say. Again, if my point has no merit why are you responding? Sound like you better keep the hubby hapy LOL LOL

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: linchpin on May 12, 2005, 01:55:00 PM

Im responding because Im bored...on the other hand you are boring..dillemas

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: linchpin on May 12, 2005, 01:55:00 PM

Im responding because Im bored...on the other hand you are boring..dillemas

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Froderik on May 12, 2005, 03:56:00 PM

Quote

This isnt about whining its about various peoples courses in life. But if it makes you feel better then say what you will. I dont give a shit your thoughts mean about as much to me as the shit I took this morning..although shitting gives greater gratification than anything you could say.

:nworthy: :rofl: :lol:

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: thepatriot on May 12, 2005, 04:06:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-05-12 10:31:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Uh huh, that's what all the "working" gals say. Again, if my point has no merit why are you responding? Sound like you better keep the hubby hapy LOL LOL "

Animals is that you???? grow up already

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Froderik on May 12, 2005, 04:15:00 PM

Quote

Again, if my point has no merit why are you responding?

Allow me (as if I need permission from anyone) to digress here for a moment. The above statement betrays a 'rationale' that repulses me in such a way that I feel the need to get to the bottom of it. First of all, the anon who made the above statement is so far out of line here that it's embarrassing! And then to try to bait someone with, "Hey! If it's without merit then why are you saying anything about it?" as if ppl shouldn't comment on something that they find wrong or without merit. What kind of stupid shit IS that? This isn't the first time that i've encountered this sort of thing on this forum. Probably from the same shit-for-brains that said it here. :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :skull:

Well anon, FUCK YOU...there's every reason in the world (aside from being bored) to respond to asinine comments like yours. Why? WHY NOT would be a much better question. :wave:

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Morbid_Opiate on May 12, 2005, 04:23:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-05-12 13:15:00, Froderik wrote:

"
Quote
Again, if my point has no merit why are you responding?

Well anon, FUCK YOU...there's every reason in the world (aside from being bored) to respond to asinine comments like yours. Why? WHY NOT would be a much better question. :wave: "

Now that is Golden , FuckTard where you at lets have some input here :lol:

Time's fun when you're having flies.
--Kermit the Frog

[ This Message was edited by: Morbid_Opiate on 2005-05-12 13:24 ]

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 05:01:00 PM

OK, I am sorry. I thought I was dealing with literate people. Did anyone actually read the original post?

Yes, Straight was horrible. Yes, bad things happened. No, it was not right. But life goes on. There ARE certain people on here who will choose to use it as a crutch forever. Success is out there for anyone if a person wants it bad enough. It is however impossible if you choose to live in the past and blame everyone else. Move on for God's sake. Didn't they take enough?

Oh, and your intellect lacks by the way. Even a bum on the street can sling profanities. I am not impressed YAWN

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: linchpin on May 12, 2005, 05:48:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-05-12 14:01:00, Anonymous wrote:

"OK, I am sorry. I thought I was dealing with literate people. Did anyone actually read the original post?

Yes, Straight was horrible. Yes, bad things happened. No, it was not right. But life goes on. There ARE certain people on here who will choose to use it as a crutch forever. Success is out there for anyone if a person wants it bad enough. It is however impossible if you choose to live in the past and blame everyone else. Move on for God's sake. Didn't they take enough?

Oh, and your intellect lacks by the way. Even a bum on the street can sling profanities. I am not impressed YAWN"

Everything you have in this life...can be taken away at any time by any fucking psycho..I think a used 9 mm costs about $100 at any pawn shop
So your "Moved on and successful "is a temp illusion ...I know its kida off topic...but what Im saying is noone is better than anyone.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: webcrawler on May 12, 2005, 10:00:00 PM

I read this entire thread and was bothered by some things. One of the things that bothered me was the put downs of how people have to survive in the game of life. Life is a mixture of hard work and just the luck of the draw, plus it helps if you know or are related to people w/ power. The welfare insults always make me sad. I will not apologize for ever being on welfare. I did what I could to obtain necessary resources and I do not have any family near by to watch my kids and had to get help to pay for childcare when I made less money. I also do not have any prospective husbands waiting in line to marry my ass and lift me out of poverty (well technically I am now a few thousand just above, but I still feel pretty poor after I pay the bills). It's amazing that some people think they are so much better because they never got any "handout". Well whoopty do for them. They got lucky. You never know when the job you work at is going to downsize and fire your ass, or your partner becomes an abusive lunatic or becomes addicted to drugs and proceeds to try and destroy your life as well. My point is that we can bust our asses and work hard every single day and we never know when it could all be ripped out from under us. People should be careful before they start criticizing the poor as lazy and dependant. Those same people may one day find themselves in the same situation.

Ford is thinking of closing down a plant where I live. Over 300 blue collar workers are going to be out of a job. When their unemployment check runs out and they still can't find a job because our country outsourced every damn factory job in my community to brown peoples around the world because they are easier to exploit will these same people be bitching about welfare collectors when these peope are forced to go on welfare or worse yet end up in a homelesss shelter because they could no longer pay a mortgage on their homes? Then when Ford leaves so does the largest tax base where I live. Soon there are very few small buisness owners left because there is no one left to buy their goods and services. The landlords also suffer because there are less prospective tenants that can pay rent. can't afford your car anymore? There goes the local mom and pop gas station that sees less buisness. It's all a domino effect. When will people get a clue that things are not as simple as "pulling yourself up by your boot straps" ?

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ` on May 12, 2005, 10:06:00 PM

Krystene, you are one of the most intelligent people around here, and you have a clue.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 08:01:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-05-12 09:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"My guess is tha mizzle successful ones have brotha th'n ta do tizzle whine on this board `bout shiznit tizzle happened a long time ago so you betta run and grab yo glock. You cant git tha time bizzay n you cant blame Straight pimp. I hate Straight as mizzy as anyone but n some point you have ta say it is 20 friggin years bitch people. S-T-to-tha-izzop sippin' n get_a_job! :mad: "

well said! :lol:

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 08:04:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-05-12 09:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"OK, I wizzill. Hizzy fun in tha welfare line. Doubt anyone that ran straight W-to-tha-izzill care, but cry on brotha

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 08:15:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-05-12 09:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"OK, I wiznill now pass the glock Anotha dogg house production.. Have fun in tha welfare line . Subscribe nigga, get yo issue.. Doubt anyone that ran straight wizzy care, but cry on gangsta!"

even better! :nworthy:

(Luy ya! Have a seat!)

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 08:37:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-05-12 10:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"If whiznat I said is wrong, it sure struck a cord . Keep'n it gangsta dogg. Point is perpetratin' in tha pizzy will not produce much, otha tizzle feel'n sorry fo` yoself.

oh, n even a baller can marry someone successful n spend they money like a tru playa'. I oughta know cuz I'm fresh out the pen."

thanks for sharing! still luy ya!

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 08:54:00 AM

Quote

No shame in that.

No there isn't. Uncle Sam collects welfare for the rich aka taxes.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 09:27:00 AM

with some straight survivors feeling very strongly about self-reliance and others who seem to believe that somebody else is responsible for people's failures.

Above is the orignal statement in the original post. Do you or do you not hold Straight, inc responsible for every failure in your life since? That was my point. What a bunch of whiny babies in here.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 09:50:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-05-13 06:27:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Do you or do you not hold Straight, inc responsible for every failure in your life since? That was my point. What a bunch of whiny babies in here."

sounds more like youre the whiny bitch trying to convince people of a point no one agrees with. or gives a shit about.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Antigen on May 13, 2005, 01:41:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-05-13 06:27:00, Anonymous wrote:

Do you or do you not hold Straight, inc responsible for every failure in your life since?

Absolutely not! First of all, I haven't had a whole lot of failure in my life. Second, I knew even back then that Straight was never anywhere near the whole story.

I hold the people responsible for Straight, The Seed, the CEDU line of gulags and their philisophical bretren responsible for what they're doing with all their esteem and power now.

For example, DATIA (Drug and Alcohol Testing Industries Association) has lobbied very successfuly for piss testing anywhere they can sqeeze it in; schools and workplaces, mostly. Piss testing has been shown through peer reviewed research to be absolutely ineffective at reducing substance use and quite harmful to the lives, futures and careers of people subject to it. You and I pay higher insurance rates in part because of the federal mandates to give lower rates to businesses that piss test. We never get the benefit (because there is none) but we pay for it. Kids get kicked out of school, sent to Straight like programs, lose higher education funding, miss out on sports, can't get/hold jobs because of piss testing. We pay for that line of piss testing directly through our tax dollars.

And the members of DATIA get all that windfall. Just look it up and see who the members of DATIA are.

If you want to get into the real nitty gritty, just follow the careers and public activity of that small cadre of scammers. They're largely responsible for the persecution of pain doctors and their patients, the holy jihad against medical marijuana, our ongoing involvement in Colombia's civil war, the spread of destructive, expensive and ineffective area drug task forces and a long list of other crimes and malfescence.

As far as what happened 20 years ago, well there's my fucked up family for ya. If it hadn't been The Seed it would probably have been some particularly rabid sect of stepcraft or Amway or Herbalife or some other dumb shit. The Seed came and went, swept up those people who bought into it, but nowhere near everybody they solicited. That's over, long ago, ancient history. I never did care about that. I'd decided by the time I was 14 that the best solution to my personal problem was to part ways w/ those crazy people, or at least get enough distance from them so they couldn't mess w/ me. Maybe a family reunion, wedding or funeral from time to time.

This other stuff, though, doesn't go away or quit effecting me just because I choose out whenever and however I can. My new neighborhood, just like the one I left, is becoming a war zone because these idiots are so hooked on Prohibition. I think we need to do something about that.

So, what to do...

I just do what I like and what I'm good at. It's not much, really. I just try to put some of this info before people who I think have a connection to it and who wouldn't otherwise know it. I try to get ppl to come forward and tell the rest of us what they know (anon or not) Sometimes it works out pretty well.

Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and to the Republic
for which it stands. Miracles do not cluster, and what has
happened once in 6000 years, may not happen again. Hold on to
the Constitution, for if the American Constitution should fail,
there will be anarchy throughout the world.

Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
return undef() if /coercion/i;

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 08:21:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-05-12 10:07:00, GregFL wrote:

"Cayo, Emmys?

Wow, tell him congrats from me!

What field is he in? Music?

That is cool...what an accomplishment. "

Speaking of Emmy's - the LIFE program's documentary (early 1980's) won one. I still have a copy of the doc. It followed 4 participants through all their phases (at the program, host homes, etc.).

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 08:29:00 PM

Some just like to play the victim, and will do so for life.
"When I cling to the past, I become unavailable to the present."

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ` on May 13, 2005, 08:54:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-05-13 17:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Some just like to play the victim, and will do so for life.

"When I cling to the past, I become unavailable to the present.""

and some people like to spout inanities, that have nothing to do with having a soul and a life.

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ` on May 13, 2005, 09:24:00 PM

"blame" and "victim" are definitely 12-step and self-help language. and the one you quoted about the past and the present is an old classic from those weird worlds.[ This Message was edited by: fka on 2005-05-13 18:27 ]

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Antigen on May 13, 2005, 10:01:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-05-13 17:21:00, Anonymous wrote:

Speaking of Emmy's - the LIFE program's documentary (early 1980's) won one.

Yeah, well, some people say the Nobel Peace Prize is bogus too. But if you won one, you'd treasure it, wouldn't you?

What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that
they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long.
--Thomas Sowell

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 11:23:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-05-13 18:24:00, fka wrote:

""blame" and "victim" are definitely 12-step and self-help language. and the one you quoted about the past and the present is an old classic from those weird worlds.[ This Message was edited by: fka on 2005-05-13 18:27 ]"

and let us thank you for that profound clarification. :lol:

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: ` on May 13, 2005, 11:27:00 PM

oh shut up, cowboy. :lol:

where's that damn middle finger emoticon when you need it? :lol:

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Antigen on May 14, 2005, 09:35:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-05-13 20:27:00, fka wrote:

where's that damn middle finger emoticon when you need it? ::fuckoff::
The last struggles of a great superstition are very frequently the worst.
--Andrew Dickson White (1832-1918)

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: seamus on June 23, 2005, 01:16:00 PM

What the fuck is society's "norm"

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use

--Galileo Galilei

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: Anonymous on June 23, 2005, 01:55:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-06-23 10:16:00, seamus wrote:

"What the fuck is society's "norm"
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use

--Galileo Galilei
"

Reagan Youth :lol:

Title: Who's making it and how?
Post by: seamus on June 23, 2005, 02:12:00 PM

Wrong, its miller goddamn newton. He had a band called the "ruptured purple starfish" for awhile before he started posing as a man of god.

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
--Philosopher, Blaise Pascal