Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: WorriedAnne on September 14, 2009, 06:56:57 AM
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I know that this site is very much against all programs of any kind, but I just wanted to post our own success story (for the moment at least !).
Our son, aged 15, was out of control, constantly angry and depressed, not eating to the point of anorexia, failing school and using pot and alcohol to such a point that he couldn't function.
On the recommendation of an educational consultant (long story), we sent him to Second Nature in Utah, where he spent nine weeks. Last week I went to the campsite and spent the day and a night with the group, and then left with my son the next day, to take him to his "aftercare" as they call it.
And our son was absolutely transformed. He said it saved his life. He is happy, calm, funny, and gained nearly 20 pounds while he was in the program. He's proud that he can do that fire thing with the bow, that he survived tough hikes, and that he can cook over a fire. He is really a totally changed young man, and he said without Second Nature he couldn't have done it.
I found the staff to be good, but the therapist in charge of our son was exceptional, absolutely outstanding. Very understanding and still pointing out the sensitive issues in a way that we could all make some changes in communication so we don't all blow up all the time, as we've been doing for the past year.
So I thought I'd post something incredibly positive. I am thrilled to have my son back, in good shape, physically and mentally, and I was extremely impressed with the care of the boys, both physical and emotional. I know this program doesn't work with all boys, but it worked with our son.
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^^^ thewho.
Second Nature Wilderness Camp in Duchesne, UT (additional locations in Santa Clara, UT, Clayton, GA, and Bend, OR) is suspected of being an abusive behavior modification program. They consider Oppositional Defiance Disorder an actual disorder when in reality it is not. During puberty teenagers’ hormones fluctuate creating moodiness and struggles. This is normal. Labeling normal teen behavior a disorder is damaging to teens and their families. Beyond this, we find certain passages in the program contract disturbing. You can read the full contract by clicking on the title link (as of 3/19/04). One thing they ask is a detailed description of all of the child’s fears. What possible purpose could they have for this? We suspect they ask this information so they can use your child’s fears against them in order to terrify them to the point of submitting to any order in order to avoid further terror. The signature line for parents is the most telling it reads: “I release Second Nature Therapeutic Programs LLC, Second Nature Wilderness Programs, LLC, all employees, and contractors from any and all liability resulting from our son’s or daughter’s participation and assume all risks in connection there with, including known and unknown risks. “ Basically, you have signed over your rights to sue if your child is battered and abused by anyone while in the care of Second Nature. This is a dangerous request and one no parent should agree to. If you have been abused by Second Nature, please contact us and we will post your story here as a warning to others. For staff and background info
http://www.heal-online.org/secondnat.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/secondnat.htm)
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http://www.heal-online.org/secondnat.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/secondnat.htm)
This is a staff list for Second Nature Wilderness Program(s) in Duchesne, UT, Santa Clara, UT, Clayton, GA, & Bend, OR
(we are working to acquire the complete records for ALL years)
We advise current and/or former staff to report abuses you witnessed while working at Second Nature Wilderness Program. For information on your rights and how to take action, visit www.heal-online.org/blowthewhistle.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/blowthewhistle.htm). If you were fired or forced to resign because you opposed any illegal and unethical practices at Second Nature Wilderness Program, you have the right to take action.
If you are a victim (family or survivor) of Second Nature Wilderness Program, please contact [email protected] if you remember the long-term employees and from which years. This will help! Also, if you recognize any of these staff as having worked at another program, please send in any information about their past or present employment at other facilities and/or cults.
Please don’t place your loved one in Second NatureWilderness Program and rescue them if they are there now.
Name
Unit/Position
Additional Information
Brad M. Reedy Founder ALL PROGRAMS--Brad currently sits on the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs Board and the Utah Board of the Department of Child and Family Services.
In the public sector, Brad worked at Loma Linda University Hospital, at Riverside Family Service Agency, and at Center for Family Development. In private practice, Brad has also worked with individuals and families with eating disorders and other addictions. Brad worked as a field therapist and Clinical Director with Aspen Achievement Academy and Aspen Ranch.
Cheryl Kehl Founder Prior to founding Second Nature, she was the Clinical Director at Aspen Achievement Academy (a therapeutic wilderness program in southern Utah) where she worked as a wilderness therapist and staff supervisor for five years. Her experience also includes serving as the Clinical Director at Aspen Ranch (a residential treatment program for adolescents in southern Utah), as a therapist at the Comprehensive Clinic at Brigham Young University(BYU) in Provo, Utah, Wasatch Mental Health and the American Psychological Association in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Devan Glissmeyer Founder Devan’s experience includes work at the Center for Family Development. He worked as a field therapist at Aspen Achievement Academy.
Leah Halverson Admissions
Shahara Davis Admissions
Steve Kirk Admissions
Tere Snodgrass Admissions
Lori Armbruster Admissions
Ben Pearson Therapist Duchesne, UT Location--UINTAS/Uintas Program--Ben began working with adjudicated youth for the Anasazi Foundation in the fall of 1997. In January of 2000, Ben came to Second Nature.
Bryan Lepinske Therapist Prior to his return to Second Nature Bryan was on the clinical team at Willow Creek School, a program in Provo, Utah. He has also worked as a primary therapist at Vista Adolescent Treatment Center in Magna, Utah.
Jake Blackwelder Therapist Blackwelder has been with Second Nature since 2004.
Jason Capel Clinical Director Jason completed his undergraduate work at the University of Utah with Bachelors degrees in Psychology and Physiology in 1989. While there, he worked as a research assistant in the areas of human sexuality and memory working with both human and animal subjects.
Jason Dalton Therapist The last program he worked at before joining Second Nature was Logan River Academy where he worked for nearly 3 ½ years. While working at LRA, Jason saw a large number of students coming from wilderness program. Graduate of BYU.
Jen Murphy Counselor . In 2000, and for the next four years, Jen worked for Aspen Achievement Academy. Jen left Aspen Achievement in 2004 when she was sought by Second Nature.
Jennifer Wilde Counselor Moving to a private facility in 1999, Jennifer worked at Island View Residential Center for seven years. She has also worked as the Clinical Director at Willow Creek School.
Jess Jewell Teacher Jess also worked at Gateway Academy, a residential treatment program in Salt Lake City. In addition, Jess completed an internship with ChoicePoint Therapeutic Services.
Jody St. Joseph Therapist
Patrick Logan Outreach Director Formerly worked for Hurricane Island Outward Bound's S.T.E.P. program, an adjudicated intervention program
1995, parts of '96 and '97 Aspen Achievement Academy Senior Instructor and Team Leader (responsible for supervising and developing both rotations of Instructors in the field). For 8 months in '96, Hidden Lake Academy as their Assistant Wilderness Director 1999 joined Second Nature as Field Director, helped develop Second Nature Cascades (Bend, Oregon), Information Technology projects, assisted with Willowcreek School (a.k.a. Willow Creek School)and continue as Outreach Director.
Shaun Woodard Field Director He joined Second Nature in 2000 as a field instructor.
Steve DeBois Clinical Director He worked for Youth Care residential program prior to coming to Second Nature.
Andy Dunn Therapist Clayton, GA--Second Nature Blue Ridge--Andy worked as a field guide for a wilderness program in Maine and a residential therapy program in Hawaii for adjudicated youth.* Andy arrived at Second Nature, Utah in the Spring of 2000.
Dan McDougal Owner/Partner/Program Director He then went on to work as a senior wilderness instructor at Aspen Achievement Academy in Loa, Utah. He was hired by Second Nature Utah to assist in the development of the field program at its inception in 1998. He has worked as a Senior Mentor and Field Director with Second Nature Utah. In 2002 he developed and co-founded Second Nature Blue Ridge.
Dana Karkotsky Parent Coordinator Dana worked for two years as a clinical assistant at Ridgeview Institute on the Child/Adolescent Program. After working at Ridgeview Institute, Dana came to Second Nature Blue Ridge as a field instructor.
Diana Gordick Counselor
Erica Thiessen Counselor She worked both as a lead peer group counselor for two groups as well as wilderness counselor at The Academy at Swift River, a therapeutic boarding school in Massachusetts, before moving to Asheville in 2003.
Jeff Scott Clinical Director Jeff has worked at SUWS of the Carolinas as well as the Aspen Achievement Academy. He has also worked at Charter Provo Canyon School and the Heritage School.
Paul Case Psychiatrist Paul Case, Psy.D. is a clinical psychologist who joins Second Nature Blue Ridge from Montana Academy, where he worked as a Clinical Supervisor and therapist for four years.
Tony Issenmann Therapist
Tyson Farmer Field Director Tyson became a backcountry instructor at Alternative Youth Adventures (an Aspen Education Group program) in Loa, Utah in 2001. Tyson started working at Second Nature Blue Ridge as a field instructor shortly after it opened in December 2002.
Amanda Lilla Admin. Director
Mary Flora Counselor Formerly employed with Phoenix Outdoor wilderness program.
Lu Vaughn Counselor Lu worked as a Program Director with Boy’s Clubs of America. She worked 7 years with the State of North Carolina Alcohol and Drug Abuse Treatment Center; Director of an adult "therapeutic community"; Primary Therapist and Clinical Director for an adolescent "therapeutic" boarding school located in Bahia de Kino, Mexico; Clinical Director for Coral Reef Academy located in Samoa. She is still listed as the clinical director for Coral Reef Academy.*
Allison Hilemon Psychiatrist Santa Clara, UT Location--Entrada--Joined Second Nature in 2007.
Becca Carlin Asst. Field Director In 2004 she moved to Salt Lake City and began working for Second Nature in Duchesne as a Field Instructor.
Beth Fogel Therapist Beth is a licensed social worker in both Utah and Pennsylvania and has been working in her field since 1994. Beth has experience with adolescents in both inpatient hospital, residential and wilderness settings. Most recently, Beth has worked for Passages to Recovery.
Charlie Carlin Counselor
Gail Bramlet Office Mgr. Gail is the Entrada Office Manager since 2004.
Justin Stum Therapist Prior to coming to Second Nature, Justin was employed by RedCliff Ascent, a wilderness therapy program in southern Utah.
Lauren Roberts Field Staff Roberts has been with Second Nature since 2006.
Matt Hoag Therapist (Ph.D.) He began in the wilderness with RedCliff Ascent in southern Utah. He then worked for three years at Aspen Achievement Academy as a field therapist, assistant clinical director and director of research. At both programs, Matt conducted psychological and psychoeducational evaluations with adolescents. He has worked at both Second Nature programs in Utah, and done psychological testing at all four Second Nature programs. He has been with Second Nature for nine years and helped start Second Nature Entrada five years ago. (as of 2009).
Mayer Jeppson Therapist (Ph.D.) Mayer focused his clinical experience on at-risk adolescent and adult populations. He has conducted psychological assessments and/or conducted individual and group therapy through St. Elizabeth's Hospital (a forensic mental hospital based in D.C.); the Northwest Child and Family Community Support Center in D.C.; the Juvenile Addictions Receiving Facility (JARF) at Jackson Memorial Hospital, Miami, Florida; Juvenile Detention Center (JDC) in Miami, Florida; South Miami Excel Shelter; University of Miami Institute for Family Living; Brigham Young University Comprehensive Clinic; Utah State Fourth District Juvenile Court; Utah State Adult Probation and Parole Salt Lake City Daily Reporting Center; Utah State Board of Pardons; Utah State Prison Sex-Offender Treatment Program; and the Utah State Prison Olympus Forensic Mental Health Unit. Before his psychology internship from September 2006 to September 2007, Mayer worked as an assistant therapist and primary therapist at the Second Nature, Duchesne site.
Mike Hench Therapist Most recently Mike has worked in the youth/young adult treatment industry as a program therapist for SunHawk Academy, a residential treatment program operated by Aspen Education Group in St. George, UT, and as the Director of the Medicine Wheel program, a wilderness therapy program for young adults operated by RedCliff Ascent in Enterprise, UT.
Paul Goddard Therapist (Ph.D.) Paul Goddard was Clinical Director at Aspen Achievement Academy in 2005. Goddard was the psychologist at New Haven, Clinical Director at Vista, and both Clinical Director and Executive Director at Adirondack Leadership Academy in New York.
Rick Heizer Owner/Program Director Rick joined the Second Nature team in their first year of operation. During his time with Second Nature, Rick has held positions as Field Coordinator, Assistant Field Director, Field Director and Program Director. Currently Rick is an owner and the Program Director for Second Nature Entrada.
Sean Roberts Instructor Sean also worked for Outward Bound’s Department of Juvenile Justice and DCF programs. Sean joined Second Nature Entrada in the early fall of 2005 as a wilderness instructor.
Brian Rossiter NO TITLE(?) Bend Location--Second Nature Cascade(s)--He also worked with the CEDU schools for seven years, as the Program Director for Phoenix Outdoor Education Center in Vermont and as Program Manager at the Ascent program.
Cindy Fogel Therapist Fogel has worked in industry since 2001.
(Dr.) J. Huffine (male) Therapist He started working in a wilderness program in Texas in 1998, before moving to Oregon where he has been Clinical Director at SageWalk the past five years.
(Dr.) Willow Huffine (female) Therapist
(Second Nature Wilderness Program, like many other programs in this industry, keeps a "tight lid" on any specific information regarding their staff, qualifications, and practices. Please contact us with the names of any staff of which you have firsthand knowledge or experience. Thank you for your help.)
Last Updated: August 3rd, 2009
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OMG I was there with your kid, what a small world. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your son is gay and had the time of his life sucking off all of us for extra rice. That's the real reason he gained weight.. well.. and he swallows. Extra nutrients!
:nods:
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OMG I was there with your kid, what a small world. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your son is gay and had the time of his life sucking off all of us for extra rice. That's the real reason he gained weight.. well.. and he swallows. Extra nutrients!
:nods:
We are getting more and more desensitized here. Remember when we gave thewho such a hard time when he laughed at a survivors story? That was mild compared to the posts we see now.
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I know that this site is very much against all programs of any kind, but I just wanted to post our own success story (for the moment at least !).
Our son, aged 15, was out of control, constantly angry and depressed, not eating to the point of anorexia, failing school and using pot and alcohol to such a point that he couldn't function.
On the recommendation of an educational consultant (long story), we sent him to Second Nature in Utah, where he spent nine weeks. Last week I went to the campsite and spent the day and a night with the group, and then left with my son the next day, to take him to his "aftercare" as they call it.
And our son was absolutely transformed. He said it saved his life. He is happy, calm, funny, and gained nearly 20 pounds while he was in the program. He's proud that he can do that fire thing with the bow, that he survived tough hikes, and that he can cook over a fire. He is really a totally changed young man, and he said without Second Nature he couldn't have done it.
I found the staff to be good, but the therapist in charge of our son was exceptional, absolutely outstanding. Very understanding and still pointing out the sensitive issues in a way that we could all make some changes in communication so we don't all blow up all the time, as we've been doing for the past year.
So I thought I'd post something incredibly positive. I am thrilled to have my son back, in good shape, physically and mentally, and I was extremely impressed with the care of the boys, both physical and emotional. I know this program doesn't work with all boys, but it worked with our son.
The Who ^^. It posted within minutes of it's post here
by Guest » Yesterday, 11:42
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27219&start=105 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27219&start=105)
It has also claimed to be an AARC insider providing positive info it, and the poster Robert Bruce.
It is thought to be this kid killer:
http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Reuben_J ... 46382.aspx (http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Reuben_John_713946382.aspx)
John David Reuben, Chairman/ Founder of Saving Teens In Crisis Collaborative (STICC), Sudbury, MA, 877-249-1336, announced the proceeds
It killed it's son by torturing him at Academy at Swift River and SUWS Wilderness Programs. His son O.D'd after being driven half-mad and to despair at these private extra-judicial gulags. Academy at Swift River and SUWS Wilderness Programshas caused the death of many detainees. John David's son, Michael Joshua Reuben , was just one of them. Jd killed his son and he wants more victims
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27903 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27903)
JD call the one son you didn't kill.
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I like how the "guest" instantly knows who my son is.
And I like the balanced dialogue, and the civilized tone of voice.
I don't care if my son is gay or straight, I just hope he is more polite and balanced than most people who post on this site.
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I just hope he is more polite and balanced than most people who post on this site.
He is more polite and mentally stable than people on this website. People on this website are idiots!
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I like how the "guest" instantly knows who my son is.
And I like the balanced dialogue, and the civilized tone of voice.
I don't care if my son is gay or straight, I just hope he is more polite and balanced than most people who post on this site.
Thanks worriedAnnie, I appreciate the time you took to post something positive. Your story is an oasis here and typical of most parents experience from 2nd nature, its just that many dont post here or find their way to this wayward site.
I wish you and your son all the happiness you deserve and need to catch up on.
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A while back I interviewed and ex second nature employee. She gave me an earful. She told me about, for example, how the staff had a rulebook they were supposed to follow but were given oral orders frequently that contradicted those rules (resulting in sub-par treatment of the kids). Other than that I don't remember the specifics (it was a long time ago), but I do remember her overall review of the place was not positive. I believe she's posted on this site as well in another Second Nature thread.
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^^^ thewho.
Second Nature Wilderness Camp in Duchesne, UT (additional locations in Santa Clara, UT, Clayton, GA, and Bend, OR) is suspected of being an abusive behavior modification program. They consider Oppositional Defiance Disorder an actual disorder when in reality it is not.
Techincally, it's in the DSM so it is. The question is whether an educational consultant or a parent can apply that diagnosis. ODD in the DSM is very clearly distinguished between it and normal teenage rebellion.
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^^^ thewho.
Second Nature Wilderness Camp in Duchesne, UT (additional locations in Santa Clara, UT, Clayton, GA, and Bend, OR) is suspected of being an abusive behavior modification program. They consider Oppositional Defiance Disorder an actual disorder when in reality it is not.
Techincally, it's in the DSM so it is. The question is whether an educational consultant or a parent can apply that diagnosis. ODD in the DSM is very clearly distinguished between it and normal teenage rebellion.
No it's not. My BF was diagnosed with it by a real psychiatrist. Oppositional defiant is defined by opposing authority "often." How does that distinguish it between "normal" teen rebellion and abnormal? What the hell is "normal" teen rebellion, anyway? Who are these motherfuckers to decide what a "normal" rate of defiance is and medicalize any opposition that occurs at a greater rate? What if the authority in question is abusive or dysfunctional? Should the teen not oppose that authority at a greater rate than normal? Whatever their claims to the contrary, kids ARE inappropriately diagnosed and destroyed through it. There need to be some major class action lawsuits against the APA for this atrocity.
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Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
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There need to be some major class action lawsuits against the APA for this atrocity.
Or against the individual Psychologists for malpractice. Sue enough of them and they'll stop diagnosing kids as it on their own.
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Thanks worriedAnnie, I appreciate the time you took to post something positive. Your story is an oasis here and typical of most parents experience from 2nd nature, its just that many dont post here or find their way to this wayward site.
I wish you and your son all the happiness you deserve and need to catch up on.
Actually, it's been more or less proved by peer reviewed study, that it's common for participants in "teen programs" to encounter human rights violations, and abuses of all kinds.
http://www.cafety.org/research/121-rese ... -pinto-phd (http://www.cafety.org/research/121-research/433-a-summary-of-participant-perspectives-allison-pinto-phd)
"I have spoken with professionals who are shocked by descriptions of institutional abuse that continue to emerge in unregulated “therapeutic” boarding schools and similar “specialty” programs across the country. In disbelief, people often ask, “How do you know that these aren’t just a few isolated incidents that have been blown way out of proportion?”
...these survey findings nonetheless provide compelling information indicating that there are far more than a few isolated cases of youth who are being mistreated and are suffering in programs across the country. ..these reports describe treatment that appears to be significantly below commonly accepted standards of care in the fields of education, mental health, child welfare, and human rights. "
Meanwhile, Aspen education group has never authenticated or confirmed in accordance with any medical body's standards and practices that it offers any form of therapy whatsoever.
"Instead of treatment, however, Burton says [Aspen Education Group] cuts [teens] off from the world and put in a place where teenagers are "incarcerated against their will and without their consent for dubious treatment of a clandestine, undefined and unconfirmed nature."
If you weren't too stupid to have seen that, yo uwouldnt have killed Mike Reuben
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28657 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28657)
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... n11484238/ (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20041011/ai_n11484238/)
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Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
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Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
http://www.nospank.net/teenjail.htm (http://www.nospank.net/teenjail.htm)
TEENAGE LOBOTOMY
A Zine about the Institutionalization of Youth
By Nick and Sarah
February 2005
This reader is being compiled by two teenage artists/writers -- Nick, who was locked up in the Family Foundation School in New York, Second Nature Wilderness Program in Utah, and his close friend Sarah.
What would you do if two large men, handcuffed you, dragged you out of your home, and threw you in the back of a van, tomorrow at the crack of dawn? How would you respond to the people in this institution when they force you to stand in a corner for weeks on end, to lift your knees to your waistline when you walk, to be silent when you want to be loud, to be loud when you want to be silent, and to carry buckets of rocks back and forth for twelve hours each day? Would you resist, rebel, run away, kill yourself? What if they took your food away? Had someone follow you around all the time, even watching you shit?
what if you were completely stuck in a behavior modification program like this for two years without seeing your friends, your home, or anything that might remind you of the real world?
Youth hold all the creativity, curiosity, and vitality of human nature in a concentrated form. But from a very early age, we are forced into narrow, limiting ways of thinking and being. We sit in rows and later we march in rows, so that we can battle those whose way of life is out of line with ours. If kids attempt to step out of these formations, they are considered crazy or criminal and are dealt with using methods that are even more coercive and confining.
These institutions reflect our society's attitude towards youth, treating us as less than full human beings. Kids are treated with mistrust and thus don't learn to take responsibility for their actions, in a vicious cycle that is only perpetrated by this mentality of cages. Regardless of whether an institution is private or state funded, meant to reform a rebellious teenage, "cure" a mental disorder, or to remove a criminal from society, the mindset is the same: youth are not to be trusted, and that coercion and punishment are acceptable means of solving problems.
Why do adults feel the need to exert such rigid control over us? Perhaps it's because youth tend to be more idealistic and less willing to accept the world as it is. It takes years to teach someone to endure the monotony and superficiality that is so many peoples' lives. Behavior modification programs are part of this cycle of stagnation, so this reader was created to educate people about this little-known atrocity occurring in our own country, and to offer constructive ways to help youth without denying their freedom and individuality. It's a first step in the long struggle to shut these types of places down, and to encourage kids everywhere to take control over their own lives.
Teenage Lobotomy expands from the inside outwards, from presenting the rigid mentality of cages to opening up into some of the countless possibilities that are our future. It starts by using personal stories and news articles to portray how youth are institutionalized in many ways, from many points of view. It then provides some basic information on mental health and the mental health system including advice on taking care of ourselves and each other, and getting the right kind of help. There's a thick section on using various forms of creative expression as a way for kids to balance out their lives and figure out who they are. This transitions into a section about self-education as a means to explore the world and empower yourself. The reader ends with an in-depth discussion of youth organizing and activism, a way for us to use our experiences of injustice to make change outside of ourselves.
We're hoping that by juxtaposing stories of horror and degradation with methods of self-expression and discovery, the contents of this reader will squirm around and interact with each other in an alchemical process that will draw new connections.
________________________
SUBMISSIONS INVITED Submit to a new reader about abusive institutions for youth entitled Teenage Lobotomy: A Zine about the Institutionalization of Youth. The reader will consist of:
An introduction to the abuses that take place at therapeutic boarding schools, residential treatment facilities, and wilderness programs
Personal stories and interviews from students, parents, and ex-teachers
News articles about behavior modification programs Information about mental health and the mental health system
Discussion of alternative ways to help "troubled" teens (and ways for teens to help themselves), including art therapy and other forms of creative expression , various forms of counseling (such as utilizing AA outpatient programs or talking to mentors for help), and other programs that encourage healing in positive ways.
Discussion of youth activism and organizing
Discussion of youth taking control of their own education
Tons of really good art (and a couple of poems) by young people
Information about laws relating to youth
A massive list of resources including books, organizations, and websites We need your stories! They may include:
Where you (or your child, or your friend) were sent
Specific disciplinary techniques used
Reasons for being sent away
What the staff was like
How the experience affected you (or your child, or your friend)
Approximate relapse rate
Legal actions taken against the institution (if there ever were any)
We are also looking for writing on people's experiences with with various forms of treatment, traditional and alternative These are only guidelines. You may tell your story in words, pictures, or any form of communication that will bring your experience to life.
PLEASE SEND US YOUR WRITING AND ART BY MARCH 15th 2005, and keep it under three pages. Thank you.
Contact Nick at [email protected] and Sarah at mailto:[email protected]
Or write to
Nick & Sarah
3706 72nd Street # 5H
Jackson Heights, New York 11372
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http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08713t.pdf (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08713t.pdf)
we are using the term residential program to refer to those private entities across the country and abroad that call themselves wilderness therapy programs, therapeutic boarding schools, academies, behavioral modification facilities, ranches, and boot camps, among other names.
Private residential programs typically market their services to the parents of troubled teenagers—boys and girls with a variety of addiction, behavioral, and emotional problems—and provide a range of services, including drug and alcohol treatment, confidence building, and psychological counseling for illnesses such as depression and attention deficit disorder.
Many cite positive outcomes associated with specific types of residential programs. However, in our previous testimony, we identified thousands of allegations of abuse, some of which resulted in death, at residential programs across the country and in American-owned and American-operated facilities abroad. We also examined 10 closed civil or criminal cases where a teenager died while enrolled in a private program and found significant evidence of ineffective management in most of the 10 cases, with program leaders neglecting the needs of program participants and staff. This ineffective management compounded the negative consequences of (and sometimes directly resulted in) the hiring of untrained staff; a lack of adequate nourishment for enrolled children; and reckless or negligent operating practices, including a lack of adequate equipment.
....
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Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Apparently this post has raised some controversy so I thought I would explain vs just deleting it. This was originally a "guest" post and not intended to communicate that I had a son in wilderness which I did not. If you read the OP this woman was being bashed pretty hard for telling her story and people on fornits were calling her son gay and pretending to be in wilderness with her son. I posted as a "guest" in support of her story hoping it would help balance the scales a bit which as I read back now I think it did. Since I feel it was a good deed I would like to keep this post in tact.
...
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Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Another fake parent who is posting on this website.
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Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Face it.....you got busted buddy boy.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Face it.....you got busted buddy boy.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I don't see how admitting his son loved second Nature is getting busted Anne. his son loved the wilderness and wants to become a counselor now. I think it's great. You can't fault a great parent that used all his resources to send three of his kids to two programs each, Anne. His son clearly thanks him for sending him away and sees the value in it. Whooter is just a dad whose proud of his son's wilderness success.
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Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Face it.....you got busted buddy boy.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I admit that, Anne, but read through the thread and see what they did to this woman "worried Anne" and calling her son gay and pretending to be survivors with her son.
I dont see it as being wrong at all. I feel sorry for the woman. I would probably do it again if the situation warranted.
...
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I still don't get it. Because some extemists here made lude comments about some lady you posted your son's success story? Why not just be proud of your son and tell your story anyway? It doesn't matter now anyway, you admit your son was at Wilderness and that he did great and that's all that matters.
-
Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Face it.....you got busted buddy boy.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I admit that, Anne, but read through the thread and see what they did to this woman "worried Anne" and calling her son gay and pretending to be survivors with her son.
I dont see it as being wrong at all. I feel sorry for the woman. I would probably do it again if the situation warranted.
Whheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
(http://http://www.backtobasicstoys.com/images/5844.jpg)
:rofl: :rofl:
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I still don't get it. Because some extemists here made lude comments about some lady you posted your son's success story? Why not just be proud of your son and tell your story anyway? It doesn't matter now anyway, you admit your son was at Wilderness and that he did great and that's all that matters.
I don't either. If he just wanted to come to her defense, he'd have just posted the "truth" about his "daughter". He got busted. Again. :deal:
Poor Whooter's having a rough day today. :beat:
:rofl:
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I still don't get it. Because some extemists here made lude comments about some lady you posted your son's success story? Why not just be proud of your son and tell your story anyway? It doesn't matter now anyway, you admit your son was at Wilderness and that he did great and that's all that matters.
I don't either. If he just wanted to come to her defense, he'd have just posted the "truth" about his "daughter". He got busted. Again. :deal:
Poor Whooter's having a rough day today. :beat:
:rofl:
What do you mean again, Anne. As far as I can see this is the first time Whooter lied about having a son in a program. He was always honest with me and Danny about it. It's the daughter part I can't figure out. Are you suggesting he's lying about other things too? I don't believe it not for a minute.
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I still don't get it. Because some extemists here made lude comments about some lady you posted your son's success story? Why not just be proud of your son and tell your story anyway? It doesn't matter now anyway, you admit your son was at Wilderness and that he did great and that's all that matters.
I don't either. If he just wanted to come to her defense, he'd have just posted the "truth" about his "daughter". He got busted. Again. :deal:
Poor Whooter's having a rough day today. :beat:
:rofl:
What do you mean again, Anne. As far as I can see this is the first time Whooter lied about having a son in a program. He was always honest with me and Danny about it. It's the daughter part I can't figure out. Are you suggesting he's lying about other things too? I don't believe it not for a minute.
Ok, I really don't care.
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I'm just asking Anne. Did Whooter lie about other things too or just the whole son/son/daughter thing? To me it looks like he had two sons and a daughter all in programs, even though he never mentioned the daughter to me before only the sons. Do you have evidence to show he's lying about more than just the kids he had in programs?
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What do you mean again, Anne. As far as I can see this is the first time Whooter lied about having a son in a program. He was always honest with me and Danny about it. It's the daughter part I can't figure out. Are you suggesting he's lying about other things too? I don't believe it not for a minute.
Ok, I really don't care.
We should let him figure it out on his own.
...
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I'm just asking Anne. Did Whooter lie about other things too or just the whole son/son/daughter thing? To me it looks like he had two sons and a daughter all in programs, even though he never mentioned the daughter to me before only the sons. Do you have evidence to show he's lying about more than just the kids he had in programs?
You can start reading here....
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=29342 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=29342)
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Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Face it.....you got busted buddy boy.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I admit that, Anne, but read through the thread and see what they did to this woman "worried Anne" and calling her son gay and pretending to be survivors with her son.
I dont see it as being wrong at all. I feel sorry for the woman. I would probably do it again if the situation warranted.
...
QFT in its original format. Whooter pleads "guilty" to lying about his entire phony "family story." Priceless.
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I still don't get it. Because some extemists here made lude comments about some lady you posted your son's success story? Why not just be proud of your son and tell your story anyway? It doesn't matter now anyway, you admit your son was at Wilderness and that he did great and that's all that matters.
I don't either. If he just wanted to come to her defense, he'd have just posted the "truth" about his "daughter". He doesn't explain why he felt the need to make up a different gender child.
-
I still don't get it. Because some extemists here made lude comments about some lady you posted your son's success story? Why not just be proud of your son and tell your story anyway? It doesn't matter now anyway, you admit your son was at Wilderness and that he did great and that's all that matters.
I don't either. If he just wanted to come to her defense, he'd have just posted the "truth" about his "daughter". He doesn't explain why he felt the need to make up a different gender child.
Anne, I was posting as a "guest". If I said "daughter" people would have figured out it was me. In fact if you read the thread people were convinced that I was "Worried Anne". So you can see the trolls were out in full force on that thread. I think I did a good thing. Read through it you will see what I mean.
...
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I know that this site is very much against all programs of any kind, but I just wanted to post our own success story (for the moment at least !).
Our son, aged 15, was out of control, constantly angry and depressed, not eating to the point of anorexia, failing school and using pot and alcohol to such a point that he couldn't function.
On the recommendation of an educational consultant (long story), we sent him to Second Nature in Utah, where he spent nine weeks. Last week I went to the campsite and spent the day and a night with the group, and then left with my son the next day, to take him to his "aftercare" as they call it.
And our son was absolutely transformed. He said it saved his life. He is happy, calm, funny, and gained nearly 20 pounds while he was in the program. He's proud that he can do that fire thing with the bow, that he survived tough hikes, and that he can cook over a fire. He is really a totally changed young man, and he said without Second Nature he couldn't have done it.
I found the staff to be good, but the therapist in charge of our son was exceptional, absolutely outstanding. Very understanding and still pointing out the sensitive issues in a way that we could all make some changes in communication so we don't all blow up all the time, as we've been doing for the past year.
So I thought I'd post something incredibly positive. I am thrilled to have my son back, in good shape, physically and mentally, and I was extremely impressed with the care of the boys, both physical and emotional. I know this program doesn't work with all boys, but it worked with our son.
This is the OP. It was a good find, SUCK_IT, thank you. This represents one of the success stories and shows one of the many kids that do well in wilderness programs.
...
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This is the OP. It was a good find, SUCK_IT, thank you. This represents one of the success stories and shows one of the many kids that do well in wilderness programs.
It's also an excellent example of you pretending to be other people to advance your agenda.
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This is the OP. It was a good find, SUCK_IT, thank you. This represents one of the success stories and shows one of the many kids that do well in wilderness programs.
It's also an excellent example of you pretending to be other people to advance your agenda.
If you read the thread you wouldn't be saying that, unless you are just lying again.
...
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Why does it bother people here so much that other people do well?
...
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Why does it bother people here so much that other people do well?
It doesn't. It bothers us when people lie. It bothers us when people twist our words around. It bothers us when people try to minimize what's being done to kids in the name of "treatment". But you know this already.
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Why does it bother people here so much that other people do well?
It doesn't. It bothers us when people lie. It bothers us when people twist our words around. It bothers us when people try to minimize what's being done to kids in the name of "treatment". But you know this already.
What the heck has gotten in to you lately. People do well in programs and you know this, so stop it, Anne.
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Why does it bother people here so much that other people do well?
It doesn't. It bothers us when people lie. It bothers us when people twist our words around. It bothers us when people try to minimize what's being done to kids in the name of "treatment". But you know this already.
All those things bother me too. But why do people react the way they did on this thread when this woman told her story? Why did fonits posters pretend to know her son and tell her that he performed oral sex on everyone at camp for extra rice? Why did they say he was gay to her?
Did you read the op and the thread Anne? Why do people like yourself and Samara just ignore posts like that and focus on my post where I was trying to help this woman?
Why is everyone so threatened when posts like this appear?
...
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Why does it bother people here so much that other people do well?
It doesn't. It bothers us when people lie. It bothers us when people twist our words around. It bothers us when people try to minimize what's being done to kids in the name of "treatment". But you know this already.
What the heck has gotten in to you lately. People do well in programs and you know this, so stop it, Anne.
Don't presume to tell me what I know, you fucking simpleton.
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Thanks worriedAnnie, I appreciate the time you took to post something positive. Your story is an oasis here and typical of most parents experience from 2nd nature, its just that many dont post here or find their way to this wayward site.
I wish you and your son all the happiness you deserve and need to catch up on.
Actually, it's been more or less proved by peer reviewed study, that it's common for participants in "teen programs" to encounter human rights violations, and abuses of all kinds.
http://www.cafety.org/research/121-rese ... -pinto-phd (http://www.cafety.org/research/121-research/433-a-summary-of-participant-perspectives-allison-pinto-phd)
"I have spoken with professionals who are shocked by descriptions of institutional abuse that continue to emerge in unregulated “therapeutic” boarding schools and similar “specialty” programs across the country. In disbelief, people often ask, “How do you know that these aren’t just a few isolated incidents that have been blown way out of proportion?”
...these survey findings nonetheless provide compelling information indicating that there are far more than a few isolated cases of youth who are being mistreated and are suffering in programs across the country. ..these reports describe treatment that appears to be significantly below commonly accepted standards of care in the fields of education, mental health, child welfare, and human rights. "
Meanwhile, Aspen education group has never authenticated or confirmed in accordance with any medical body's standards and practices that it offers any form of therapy whatsoever.
"Instead of treatment, however, Burton says [Aspen Education Group] cuts [teens] off from the world and put in a place where teenagers are "incarcerated against their will and without their consent for dubious treatment of a clandestine, undefined and unconfirmed nature."
If you weren't too stupid to have seen that, yo uwouldnt have killed Mike Reuben
http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28657 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28657)
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... n11484238/ (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20041011/ai_n11484238/)
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Anne, why do people like you and Samara accept these types of posts to a mother telling her story of her son? Yet are upset when I post to defend her or balance the scales. My posts were not hurtful to anyone, but that doesnt seem to matter to people like you.
OMG I was there with your kid, what a small world. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your son is gay and had the time of his life sucking off all of us for extra rice. That's the real reason he gained weight.. well.. and he swallows. Extra nutrients!
:nods:
...
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Anne, why do people like you and Samara accept these types of posts to a mother telling her story of her son? Yet are upset when I post to defend her or balance the scales. My posts were not hurtful to anyone, but that doesnt seem to matter to people like you.
Because you lied. I wasn't upset with "worriedanne". You lied to advance your agenda and that tends to piss people off. It's really not that complicated.
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Anne, why do people like you and Samara accept these types of posts to a mother telling her story of her son? Yet are upset when I post to defend her or balance the scales. My posts were not hurtful to anyone, but that doesnt seem to matter to people like you.
Because you lied. I wasn't upset with "worriedanne". You lied to advance your agenda and that tends to piss people off. It's really not that complicated.
No, not worriedanne, why were you not upset over posts like this?
OMG I was there with your kid, what a small world. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your son is gay and had the time of his life sucking off all of us for extra rice. That's the real reason he gained weight.. well.. and he swallows. Extra nutrients!
:nods:
Wouldnt you have any empathy for the mother? This person lied, but was hateful. I posted as a guest to try to help.
...
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Anne, why do people like you and Samara accept these types of posts to a mother telling her story of her son? Yet are upset when I post to defend her or balance the scales. My posts were not hurtful to anyone, but that doesnt seem to matter to people like you.
Because you lied. I wasn't upset with "worriedanne". You lied to advance your agenda and that tends to piss people off. It's really not that complicated.
No, not worriedanne, why were you not upset over posts like this?
OMG I was there with your kid, what a small world. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your son is gay and had the time of his life sucking off all of us for extra rice. That's the real reason he gained weight.. well.. and he swallows. Extra nutrients!
:nods:
Gee, do you think it might be because I didn't participate in that thread? ::) So, for the record, it was a dick move to post shit like that, but that person isn't here right now. You are and you got caught lying, so I commented on it. If the poster who said that about her kid were to come out here now, I'd say to them now that it was a completely dick move to do that.
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Anne, why do people like you and Samara accept these types of posts to a mother telling her story of her son? Yet are upset when I post to defend her or balance the scales. My posts were not hurtful to anyone, but that doesnt seem to matter to people like you.
Because you lied. I wasn't upset with "worriedanne". You lied to advance your agenda and that tends to piss people off. It's really not that complicated.
No, not worriedanne, why were you not upset over posts like this?
OMG I was there with your kid, what a small world. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your son is gay and had the time of his life sucking off all of us for extra rice. That's the real reason he gained weight.. well.. and he swallows. Extra nutrients!
:nods:
Gee, do you think it might be because I didn't participate in that thread? ::) So, for the record, it was a dick move to post shit like that, but that person isn't here right now. You are and you got caught lying, so I commented on it. If the poster who said that about her kid were to come out here now, I'd say to them now that it was a completely dick move to do that.
Thank you, and if you think my post was a dick move then thats fine too. but I dont agree with you. I would post the same thing if the new rules were not in place. If guest posting and trolling is allowed for some it should be allowed for everyone.
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Lying is lying. Period. How do we know YOU didn't write that post Whooter? Just to make a point about how insensitive and immature we all are here?
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Lying is lying. Period. How do we know YOU didn't write that post Whooter? Just to make a point about how insensitive and immature we all are here?
I could not have written it because all my posts were strung together and tied to my user name.
...
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I agree with Whooter here. His posts were strung together and revealed he has lied for nearly six years about his "family story" here and believes it's OK to lie to promote programs. Check it out:
Whooter finally admits his whole story here is straight cock-and-bull nonsense.
Here he admits to having his SON sent to Second Nature Wilderness: (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28642&start=15#p382352)
Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Face it.....you got busted buddy boy.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I admit that, Anne, but read through the thread and see what they did to this woman "worried Anne" and calling her son gay and pretending to be survivors with her son.
I dont see it as being wrong at all. I feel sorry for the woman. I would probably do it again if the situation warranted.
...
Finally forced to admit his whole story here is bullshit. Priceless.
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Lying is lying. Period. How do we know YOU didn't write that post Whooter? Just to make a point about how insensitive and immature we all are here?
I could not have written it because all my posts were strung together and tied to my user name.
...
OK, fair enough, you are still a liar.
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Lying is lying. Period. How do we know YOU didn't write that post Whooter? Just to make a point about how insensitive and immature we all are here?
I could not have written it because all my posts were strung together and tied to my user name.
...
OK, fair enough, you are still a liar.
Well, if a wife asks her husband: "Honey do I look fat in this dress?" and he doesnt want to hurt her so he says "No, honey you look beautiful" then yes he is a liar.
So there are times a person will lie.
...
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In some cases, like Whooter's, everything he says is a lie, not just "sometimes."
Whooter finally admits his whole story here is straight cock-and-bull nonsense.
Here he admits to having his SON sent to Second Nature Wilderness: (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28642&start=15#p382352)
Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Face it.....you got busted buddy boy.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I admit that, Anne, but read through the thread and see what they did to this woman "worried Anne" and calling her son gay and pretending to be survivors with her son.
I dont see it as being wrong at all. I feel sorry for the woman. I would probably do it again if the situation warranted.
...
Finally forced to admit his whole story here is bullshit. Priceless.
-
Well, if a wife asks her husband: "Honey do I look fat in this dress?" and he doesnt want to hurt her so he says "No, honey you look beautiful" then yes he is a liar.
So there are times a person will lie.
Yeah, but you know damn well that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about you lying about whether or not you had a daughter or two sons in a program. We're talking about you posing as other people here to promote your agenda to fill your wallet. You're a liar and have admitted so and you're even proud of it and readily admit that you'd do it again, to suit your needs.
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Well, if a wife asks her husband: "Honey do I look fat in this dress?" and he doesnt want to hurt her so he says "No, honey you look beautiful" then yes he is a liar.
So there are times a person will lie.
Yeah, but you know damn well that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about you lying about whether or not you had a daughter or two sons in a program. We're talking about you posing as other people here to promote your agenda to fill your wallet. You're a liar and have admitted so and you're even proud of it and readily admit that you'd do it again, to suit your needs.
Yes I admitted that I lied and said I had a son there to comfort a woman who was being trashed by some harsh fornits posters. If I had said I had a daughter they would have figured out it was me. They already thought I was posing as "Worried Anne" so I changed it to "Son". You read the thread. I didnt see how anyone made any money off of that, Anne. See you accuse others of lying and then you tell a fib yourself. Why is it okay for you to lie but not for others?
Pot calling the Kettle black again. lol
...
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More lies to cover up the BIG LIE:
Whooter finally admits his whole story here is straight cock-and-bull nonsense.
Here he admits to having his SON sent to Second Nature Wilderness: (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28642&start=15#p382352)
Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Face it.....you got busted buddy boy.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I admit that, Anne, but read through the thread and see what they did to this woman "worried Anne" and calling her son gay and pretending to be survivors with her son.
I dont see it as being wrong at all. I feel sorry for the woman. I would probably do it again if the situation warranted.
...
Finally forced to admit his whole story here is bullshit. Priceless.
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Yes I admitted that I lied and said I had a son there to comfort a woman who was being trashed by some harsh fornits posters. If I had said I had a daughter they would have figured out it was me.
Oh bullshit. You lied to suit your own agenda. You got caught, now you're trying to spin it. We're all unbelievably shocked. ::)
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Yes I admitted that I lied and said I had a son there to comfort a woman who was being trashed by some harsh fornits posters. If I had said I had a daughter they would have figured out it was me.
Oh bullshit. You lied to suit your own agenda. You got caught, now you're trying to spin it. We're all unbelievably shocked. ::)
Hahahahaha. Pure pwnage. I told you, Whooter, that your lies would backfire on you and they sure did, huh?
Now Anne knows the answer to the question you would never answer:
Son or daughter, Whooter?
Now we all know the truth:
Whooter finally admits his whole story here is straight cock-and-bull nonsense.
Here he admits to having his SON sent to Second Nature Wilderness: (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28642&start=15#p382352)
Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Face it.....you got busted buddy boy.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I admit that, Anne, but read through the thread and see what they did to this woman "worried Anne" and calling her son gay and pretending to be survivors with her son.
I dont see it as being wrong at all. I feel sorry for the woman. I would probably do it again if the situation warranted.
...
Finally forced to admit his whole story here is bullshit. Priceless.
-
Yes I admitted that I lied and said I had a son there to comfort a woman who was being trashed by some harsh fornits posters. If I had said I had a daughter they would have figured out it was me.
Oh bullshit. You lied to suit your own agenda. You got caught, now you're trying to spin it. We're all unbelievably shocked. ::)
And you lied when you tried to tell people I was making money off the post. That seems to be okay with you because you hold the double standard.
...
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But you lied about being the father of a daughter for almost six years until you were fooled into linking up your posts and lookie what happened:
Whooter finally admits his whole story here is straight cock-and-bull nonsense.
Here he admits to having his SON sent to Second Nature Wilderness: (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28642&start=15#p382352)
Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Face it.....you got busted buddy boy.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I admit that, Anne, but read through the thread and see what they did to this woman "worried Anne" and calling her son gay and pretending to be survivors with her son.
I dont see it as being wrong at all. I feel sorry for the woman. I would probably do it again if the situation warranted.
...
Finally forced to admit his whole story here is bullshit. Priceless.
This is a HUGE lie, Whooter. I don't think anyone believes what you say anymore. Too many lies you've been caught telling have caught up with you.
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And you lied when you tried to tell people I was making money off the post. That seems to be okay with you because you hold the double standard.
No, I do believe that you attempt to make money from the TTI, which is why you post day after day, year after year doing damage control. I believe that to be true. I may be mistaken, but I do believe that. I believe that pretty much everything you post here is geared towards damage control because when the TTI takes a financial hit, you do as well. Again, this might not be the case, but I believe it to be true.
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You're not mistaken, Anne. He has admitted it before.
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And you lied when you tried to tell people I was making money off the post. That seems to be okay with you because you hold the double standard.
No, I do believe that you attempt to make money from the TTI, which is why you post day after day, year after year doing damage control. I believe that to be true. I may be mistaken, but I do believe that. I believe that pretty much everything you post here is geared towards damage control because when the TTI takes a financial hit, you do as well. Again, this might not be the case, but I believe it to be true.
and I believe that you didnt have such a hard time in your program that you say you did. I think that you make up things,events and make up friends to mislead the readers. You purposely ignore the advancements that programs have made over the years that come up from time to time. So you do lie, Anne, to protect your story that all programs are abusive.
I have read here long enough to know you are a liar.
...
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Whooter, your financial connection to this industry is obvious. I for one can't think of any other reason for doing what you do. Your claim to be a satisfied program parent has never held water and I am glad WE have finally cleared this up. And don't bother trying to accuse any of us of dishonesty, your credibility here is ruined, if you ever had any.
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You have read here long enough to know I am a liar.
Fair enough. That's true.
Here's some evidence of that, but I have a LOT more if you want me to post it to bolster your confession.
Whooter finally admits his whole story here is straight cock-and-bull nonsense.
Here he admits to having his SON sent to Second Nature Wilderness: (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28642&start=15#p382352)
Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Face it.....you got busted buddy boy.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I admit that, Anne, but read through the thread and see what they did to this woman "worried Anne" and calling her son gay and pretending to be survivors with her son.
I dont see it as being wrong at all. I feel sorry for the woman. I would probably do it again if the situation warranted.
...
Finally forced to admit his whole story here is bullshit. Priceless.
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Whooter, your financial connection to this industry is obvious. I for one can't think of any other reason for doing what you do. Your claim to be a satisfied program parent has never held water and I am glad WE have finally cleared this up. And don't bother trying to accuse any of us of dishonesty, your credibility here is ruined, if you ever had any.
See the problem with that is I know what I do and you do not. I have not profited from the industry at all. I have actually paid out to them a handsome sum. So I know for a fact that you are lying, Shadyacres. You accuse others of lying when you are lying yourself. Hmmmm... I think there is a name for that? lol
...
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Whooter, your financial connection to this industry is obvious. I for one can't think of any other reason for doing what you do. Your claim to be a satisfied program parent has never held water and I am glad WE have finally cleared this up. And don't bother trying to accuse any of us of dishonesty, your credibility here is ruined, if you ever had any.
See the problem with that is I know what I do and you do not. I have not profited from the industry at all. I have actually paid out to them a handsome sum. So I know for a fact that you are lying, Shadyacres. You accuse others of lying when you are lying yourself. Hmmmm... I think there is a name for that? lol
...
Whoops. : (
Whooter admits starting a program referral business while responding to the name “John.” (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27903&p=348838#p348838)
"In 2004, when I found out Michael had drug problems, I founded Saving Teens in Crisis Collaborative to help disadvantaged youths participate in programs too expensive for them."
John, when you discovered Mike had a drug problem, instead of founding STICC to help other kids, you should have supported your son by getting him medically-based treatment for his drug problem. Why would anyone faced with this situation start a business instead of focusing on their own child's problem? Don't you see that your refusal to get directly involved in Mike's life is what drove him to drugs in the first place? Then your solution to this was to have him locked up instead of put into scientifically proven therapy?
John, is this one of the "STICCy results that last a lifetime"? I guess it is if "lifetime" means "22 years."
This marketing spin makes me nauseous. We're talking about HUMAN BEINGS here, John. I know the conscienceless, like yourself, see children as commodities, but this is WAY out of line. You disgust me, sir.
Of course you are nauseous. That is because you are weak and lack foresight like most people. See the problem is you miss the bigger picture. You think small and think problems can be solved by hugging people. People and kids dont need hugs they need solutions, they need to know someone is in control and can make them feel safe. Most parents jump in and try to save their child by getting involved in their lives. But the truth is it is too late at this point to save them by this approach because they have traveled too far down the path. The parents should have been more involved all along. So instead of taking the road everyone else was taking another option was to start a business around the problem. This way you not only get help for your child but you find you are able to raise money for other kids to be placed and after the smoke settles 2 things occur:
1. It doesn’t cost a dime for treatment and
2. You can actually reverse the flow and have a few coins end up back in your pocket to boot.
You need to always keep a level head and look for opportunity when others are panicking. This is key and is the Hallmark of successful people. Whenever something is going terribly bad try to think about how you can profit by it and turn it around into something good. I have always been a firm believer that there exists a silver lining in every situation. It is our jobs to find it and utilize it or someone else will.
As far as trying to find something scientifically proven, that is hogwash. By the time any good set of studies are completed the treatment is outdated and people have moved on to something more "leading edge". Hell they still cant figure out how bees fly but that doesnt prevent us from enjoying the honey.
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Whooter, your financial connection to this industry is obvious. I for one can't think of any other reason for doing what you do. Your claim to be a satisfied program parent has never held water and I am glad WE have finally cleared this up. And don't bother trying to accuse any of us of dishonesty, your credibility here is ruined, if you ever had any.
See the problem with that is I know what I do and you do not. I have not profited from the industry at all. I have actually paid out to them a handsome sum. So I know for a fact that you are lying, Shadyacres. You accuse others of lying when you are lying yourself. Hmmmm... I think there is a name for that? lol
...
Your word means nothing here, you just confirmed what everyone here already suspected anyway. You are a liar and a spin doctor and nothing you say is reliable.
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Whooter, your financial connection to this industry is obvious. I for one can't think of any other reason for doing what you do. Your claim to be a satisfied program parent has never held water and I am glad WE have finally cleared this up. And don't bother trying to accuse any of us of dishonesty, your credibility here is ruined, if you ever had any.
See the problem with that is I know what I do and you do not. I have not profited from the industry at all. I have actually paid out to them a handsome sum. So I know for a fact that you are lying, Shadyacres. You accuse others of lying when you are lying yourself. Hmmmm... I think there is a name for that? lol
...
Your word means nothing here, you just confirmed what everyone here already suspected anyway. You are a liar and a spin doctor and nothing you say is reliable.
You just confirmed to everyone here that you will lie about anyone who disagrees with you. You are a confirmed liar yourself Shady! lol
...
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You accuse others of lying when you are lying yourself. Hmmmm... I think there is a name for that? lol
Yep, it"s called "Whooterism" and you've got a clinical case of it, phony boy.
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Whooter, your financial connection to this industry is obvious. I for one can't think of any other reason for doing what you do. Your claim to be a satisfied program parent has never held water and I am glad WE have finally cleared this up. And don't bother trying to accuse any of us of dishonesty, your credibility here is ruined, if you ever had any.
See the problem with that is I know what I do and you do not. I have not profited from the industry at all. I have actually paid out to them a handsome sum. So I know for a fact that you are lying, Shadyacres. You accuse others of lying when you are lying yourself. Hmmmm... I think there is a name for that? lol
...
Your word means nothing here, you just confirmed what everyone here already suspected anyway. You are a liar and a spin doctor and nothing you say is reliable.
You just confirmed to everyone here that you will lie about anyone who disagrees with you. You are a confirmed liar yourself Shady! lol
...
Whooter, I never claimed to have proof of your employment. I attempted to convey that no proof is necessary, your posts have already provided all the proof we need. No program parent feels THAT strongly, to waste years trying to discredit program survivors.
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No worries, Shadyacres, I have it for you. Here you go:
Whooter has told on himself.
when people are angry at other people, they can make things up. max was angry at his dad for sending him to a school that robbed him of his youth and closure with his mother. It is equally as likely that he was directing his anger towards his dad and making things up, as it is that his dad was actually involved in his mother's death.
Does anyone know how long Max was away from HLA for his mothers funeral? Was he forced to go?
3 Days maybe 4 I dont remember. A family member an aunt I think picked him up and went back with him. He wasnt forced to go, he was glad to get a break from that place.
Well, here's the conclusive proof that TheWho is either John Reuben or the most shameless liar of all time on Fornits, or both.
Please explain to us, Whooter, how you are privy to the family information. We're all ears.
Here's more of WHooter's detailed, unpublished information regarding Mike Reuben:
Prior to ASR the father had Mike seen by a specialist in the field of addiction and he was referred to a Counselor who worked one on one with him. As his grades continued to slip and his relationship with drugs became stronger he was recommended to ASR by The Director of Pediatrics at Children’s Hospital in Boston.
ASR was able to arrest his behavior, teach him to cope with himself and the problems that life will and has thrown at him and set him on a healthy path. He graduated ASR, attended and graduated from college and continued his interest in Music and a made himself successful in a career in Sales. He continued to struggle throughout his life with his addiction until it finally took his life.
As we all know addiction isn’t something that is cured but is a lifetime challenge and each person attempts to hold it at bay the best he can. The road can be long and arduous and in many instances the road is short as it was for Mike.
Please be respectful of this boys life and struggles and don’t twist his story to make him a tool for your agenda.
How would Whooter know all of this unpublished information?
Hmmmm..... Getting more interesting as we go...
Funny. I think most people know and have used the word "junkie" before. I had never seen it spelled "junky" (when referring to a "junkie") before until today.
If you tie a junky to his bed for a couple of days to get him past the physical addiction is it considered cruel? If he comes thru it and says “Thank you man you saved my life, I owe you big time, my friend” is that worth it to both of you? Should you go to jail for restraining someone? Kidnapping? Torture?
That word appears nowhere else on this forum except that post. But, it does appear elsewhere on the 'net...
Live Music Junky
...on John Reuben's MySpace page.
Also from John Reuben's MySpace page (from 2007, before Mike died, but after his wife, Lena, died):
John's Blurbs
About me:
I am 48, father of two older boys, runner, and live music lover. My tastes range mostly from blues to classic rock, to alternative. Recent shows: Everclear Peter Yorn Chicago Steely Dan Widespread Panic Eric Clapton Allman Brothers Sarah Borges Entrain Jeff Pitchell I see about 30-40 shows a year.
Who I'd like to meet:
Hoping to meet someone I can share some time with and in particular, see sdome music with this summer.
"Who" else on Fornits is a "Live Music Junky" that always talks about how many shows he sees?
I also noticed that he didn't say he is a "widower," he says he is "divorced." Pretty creepy considering that other posters here who went to HLA with Max said that Max "blamed his father for his mother's death."
Children: I don't want kids
Yeah, no shit. I think we knew that already.
Hometown: Philadelphia
"Who" else on Fornits is from Philly...?
I spent so much time sleeping in the streets around the spectrum in Philadelphia waiting for the ticket offices to open up that the homeless and I started to recognize and nod to each other. Ticket-tron was just getting started and they were only given a limited number of tickets to sell, so the only guarantee was the ticket office. Besides many other things I was a concert junkie.
I wont tell you my year of birth. But the concert was in the winter 1973, December I think, and it was at the Spectrum in Philadelphia. It was the Quadrophenia tour.
He does it "to get something positive out of this tragedy and let people know this happens in fortunate and unfortunate families, in Malden, Somerville, Sudbury and Los Angeles," he said.
Malden, eh? I wonder "Who" else has posted from Malden here on Fornits...?
24.41.10.XXX [ 1197 Posts ] [ Look up IP address ]
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24.41.82.XXX [ 1616 Posts ] [ Look up IP address ]
IP Address Country Region City Latitude/Longitude ZIP Code Time Zone
24.41.10.XXX UNITED STATES MASSACHUSETTS MALDEN 42.4305-71.0574 02148 -05:00
Net Speed ISP Domain
DSL EARTHLINK INC EARTHLINK.NET
IDD Code Area Code Weather Station
1 781 USMA0228 - MALDEN
Then we have Whooter posting from IP address (thanks for giving Psy permission to post these IP's Whooter. It has been a big help to me!) 24.41.82.XXX.
And where does our handy little IP Locator put this IP address? "Swampscott, MA."
Who might Whooter know in Swampscott, I wonder...?
Catherine Reuben! (http://http://maps.google.com/maps/place?rlz=1T4GGLG_enUS312US312&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=SWAMPSCOTT+%22reuben%22&fb=1&gl=us&hq=reuben&hnear=Swampscott,+MA&cid=526551623140969011)
Just "coincidences" I suppose...?
Whooter, or John, whichever you prefer, you are the biggest fucking phony liar I have ever had the displeasure to become acquainted with.
Boy, I guess that MCSE and research PhD did come in handy after all...
It has been fun, douche, but the game is over. You've been outed for all eternity]
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Whooter, I never claimed to have proof of your employment. I attempted to convey that no proof is necessary, your posts have already provided all the proof we need. No program parent feels THAT strongly, to waste years trying to discredit program survivors.
and I have known people long enough to know that when you get that defensive when I called you out that I have hit a nerve and was right to assume you have been lying about your stories and accounts your write here.
Why do you get so upset at others when they fib when you are lying yourself?
...
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Actually I did it myself, sorry...... Lets take this over to one of the liar threads in the "open free for all" section.
We should get back on Second nature topic.
...
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and I have known people long enough to know that when you get that defensive when I called you out that I have hit a nerve and was right to assume you have been lying about your stories and accounts your write here.
Whatever you need to tell yourself.
Why do you get so upset at others when they fib when you are lying yourself?
Could you please provide proof of his/her lying? We've provided the proof of you lying. It's only fair.
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He's just lashing out because he's been cornered and caught in some huge lies which he had to confess because there was no other plausible out for him. Too bad for him. He shouldn't have been fabricating all that information here for the last five or six years and it wouldn't have caught up to him and ruined his half-decade troll of Fornits. But now it's just too late. He got caught and he admitted it. Game, set, match. Done.
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and I have known people long enough to know that when you get that defensive when I called you out that I have hit a nerve and was right to assume you have been lying about your stories and accounts your write here.
Whatever you need to tell yourself.
Why do you get so upset at others when they fib when you are lying yourself?
Could you please provide proof of his/her lying? We've provided the proof of you lying. It's only fair.
The same way she thinks she knows that I profit from the industry.
...
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Credibility...DEACTIVATED...Credibility...DEACTIVATED...Credibility...DEACTIVATED
Too late for all that lame denial stuff, Whootie. You're caught. You have confessed to lying about having a daughter and the following information proves you are in a STICCy situation:
Whooter has told on himself.
when people are angry at other people, they can make things up. max was angry at his dad for sending him to a school that robbed him of his youth and closure with his mother. It is equally as likely that he was directing his anger towards his dad and making things up, as it is that his dad was actually involved in his mother's death.
Does anyone know how long Max was away from HLA for his mothers funeral? Was he forced to go?
3 Days maybe 4 I dont remember. A family member an aunt I think picked him up and went back with him. He wasnt forced to go, he was glad to get a break from that place.
Well, here's the conclusive proof that TheWho is either John Reuben or the most shameless liar of all time on Fornits, or both.
Please explain to us, Whooter, how you are privy to the family information. We're all ears.
Here's more of WHooter's detailed, unpublished information regarding Mike Reuben:
Prior to ASR the father had Mike seen by a specialist in the field of addiction and he was referred to a Counselor who worked one on one with him. As his grades continued to slip and his relationship with drugs became stronger he was recommended to ASR by The Director of Pediatrics at Children’s Hospital in Boston.
ASR was able to arrest his behavior, teach him to cope with himself and the problems that life will and has thrown at him and set him on a healthy path. He graduated ASR, attended and graduated from college and continued his interest in Music and a made himself successful in a career in Sales. He continued to struggle throughout his life with his addiction until it finally took his life.
As we all know addiction isn’t something that is cured but is a lifetime challenge and each person attempts to hold it at bay the best he can. The road can be long and arduous and in many instances the road is short as it was for Mike.
Please be respectful of this boys life and struggles and don’t twist his story to make him a tool for your agenda.
How would Whooter know all of this unpublished information?
Hmmmm..... Getting more interesting as we go...
Funny. I think most people know and have used the word "junkie" before. I had never seen it spelled "junky" (when referring to a "junkie") before until today.
If you tie a junky to his bed for a couple of days to get him past the physical addiction is it considered cruel? If he comes thru it and says “Thank you man you saved my life, I owe you big time, my friend” is that worth it to both of you? Should you go to jail for restraining someone? Kidnapping? Torture?
That word appears nowhere else on this forum except that post. But, it does appear elsewhere on the 'net...
Live Music Junky
...on John Reuben's MySpace page.
Also from John Reuben's MySpace page (from 2007, before Mike died, but after his wife, Lena, died):
John's Blurbs
About me:
I am 48, father of two older boys, runner, and live music lover. My tastes range mostly from blues to classic rock, to alternative. Recent shows: Everclear Peter Yorn Chicago Steely Dan Widespread Panic Eric Clapton Allman Brothers Sarah Borges Entrain Jeff Pitchell I see about 30-40 shows a year.
Who I'd like to meet:
Hoping to meet someone I can share some time with and in particular, see sdome music with this summer.
"Who" else on Fornits is a "Live Music Junky" that always talks about how many shows he sees?
I also noticed that he didn't say he is a "widower," he says he is "divorced." Pretty creepy considering that other posters here who went to HLA with Max said that Max "blamed his father for his mother's death."
Children: I don't want kids
Yeah, no shit. I think we knew that already.
Hometown: Philadelphia
"Who" else on Fornits is from Philly...?
I spent so much time sleeping in the streets around the spectrum in Philadelphia waiting for the ticket offices to open up that the homeless and I started to recognize and nod to each other. Ticket-tron was just getting started and they were only given a limited number of tickets to sell, so the only guarantee was the ticket office. Besides many other things I was a concert junkie.
I wont tell you my year of birth. But the concert was in the winter 1973, December I think, and it was at the Spectrum in Philadelphia. It was the Quadrophenia tour.
He does it "to get something positive out of this tragedy and let people know this happens in fortunate and unfortunate families, in Malden, Somerville, Sudbury and Los Angeles," he said.
Malden, eh? I wonder "Who" else has posted from Malden here on Fornits...?
24.41.10.XXX [ 1197 Posts ] [ Look up IP address ]
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24.41.82.XXX [ 1616 Posts ] [ Look up IP address ]
IP Address Country Region City Latitude/Longitude ZIP Code Time Zone
24.41.10.XXX UNITED STATES MASSACHUSETTS MALDEN 42.4305-71.0574 02148 -05:00
Net Speed ISP Domain
DSL EARTHLINK INC EARTHLINK.NET
IDD Code Area Code Weather Station
1 781 USMA0228 - MALDEN
Then we have Whooter posting from IP address (thanks for giving Psy permission to post these IP's Whooter. It has been a big help to me!) 24.41.82.XXX.
And where does our handy little IP Locator put this IP address? "Swampscott, MA."
Who might Whooter know in Swampscott, I wonder...?
Catherine Reuben! (http://http://maps.google.com/maps/place?rlz=1T4GGLG_enUS312US312&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=SWAMPSCOTT+%22reuben%22&fb=1&gl=us&hq=reuben&hnear=Swampscott,+MA&cid=526551623140969011)
Just "coincidences" I suppose...?
Whooter, or John, whichever you prefer, you are the biggest fucking phony liar I have ever had the displeasure to become acquainted with.
Boy, I guess that MCSE and research PhD did come in handy after all...
It has been fun, douche, but the game is over. You've been outed for all eternity.
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I'm afraid that really is game, set and match. Too bad it still won't stop him from spewing out his bullshit.
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I'm afraid that really is game, set and match. Too bad it still won't stop him from spewing out his bullshit.
He can spew BS all he wants. It's in vain now.
I profit from the industry.
Yes, we know. You admitted it before, remember???
Whooter admits starting a program referral business while responding to the name “John.” (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27903&p=348838#p348838)
"In 2004, when I found out Michael had drug problems, I founded Saving Teens in Crisis Collaborative to help disadvantaged youths participate in programs too expensive for them."
John, when you discovered Mike had a drug problem, instead of founding STICC to help other kids, you should have supported your son by getting him medically-based treatment for his drug problem. Why would anyone faced with this situation start a business instead of focusing on their own child's problem? Don't you see that your refusal to get directly involved in Mike's life is what drove him to drugs in the first place? Then your solution to this was to have him locked up instead of put into scientifically proven therapy?
John, is this one of the "STICCy results that last a lifetime"? I guess it is if "lifetime" means "22 years."
This marketing spin makes me nauseous. We're talking about HUMAN BEINGS here, John. I know the conscienceless, like yourself, see children as commodities, but this is WAY out of line. You disgust me, sir.
Of course you are nauseous. That is because you are weak and lack foresight like most people. See the problem is you miss the bigger picture. You think small and think problems can be solved by hugging people. People and kids dont need hugs they need solutions, they need to know someone is in control and can make them feel safe. Most parents jump in and try to save their child by getting involved in their lives. But the truth is it is too late at this point to save them by this approach because they have traveled too far down the path. The parents should have been more involved all along. So instead of taking the road everyone else was taking another option was to start a business around the problem. This way you not only get help for your child but you find you are able to raise money for other kids to be placed and after the smoke settles 2 things occur:
1. It doesn’t cost a dime for treatment and
2. You can actually reverse the flow and have a few coins end up back in your pocket to boot.
You need to always keep a level head and look for opportunity when others are panicking. This is key and is the Hallmark of successful people. Whenever something is going terribly bad try to think about how you can profit by it and turn it around into something good. I have always been a firm believer that there exists a silver lining in every situation. It is our jobs to find it and utilize it or someone else will.
As far as trying to find something scientifically proven, that is hogwash. By the time any good set of studies are completed the treatment is outdated and people have moved on to something more "leading edge". Hell they still cant figure out how bees fly but that doesnt prevent us from enjoying the honey.
Why would you deny what you already admitted? It makes no sense.
Game, set, match.
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I'm afraid that really is game, set and match. Too bad it still won't stop him from spewing out his bullshit.
I know, Anne, we can feel sorry for him but its all he has left. He can only troll now. I vote to let him continue until he gets exhausted. But in all fairness to the other readers we should not encourage him to derail the threads in the main forum.
Lets move this to the many threads in the "free for all section".
...
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I'm afraid that really is game, set and match. Too bad it still won't stop him from spewing out his bullshit.
I know, Anne, we can feel sorry for him but its all he has left. He can only troll now. I vote to let him continue until he gets exhausted. But in all fairness to the other readers we should not encourage him to derail the threads in the main forum.
Lets move this to the many threads in the "free for all section".
Gee, you wonder why we call you out on spinning so much. ::)
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Yes, Whooter calls quoting his posts that prove he is a liar (about everything) "trolling" yet when he is actually trolling and impersonating some 50 individuals and lying about having a daughter he calls it "helping" and "creating balance."
Too bad Whooter doesn't like his own quotes, but if he didn't want his lies to be public he should not have lied in the first place. Oh well.
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I'm afraid that really is game, set and match. Too bad it still won't stop him from spewing out his bullshit.
I know, Anne, we can feel sorry for him but its all he has left. He can only troll now. I vote to let him continue until he gets exhausted. But in all fairness to the other readers we should not encourage him to derail the threads in the main forum.
Lets move this to the many threads in the "free for all section".
Gee, you wonder why we call you out on spinning so much. ::)
Why do you encourage all the trolling from DJ/ Control Troll? why not ask him to take it to the free for all section. He may listen to you.
...
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Why do you call your own utterings "trolling" Whooter? You said all of it and I quoted and linked to it. Must be a little ashamed of your own stupidity for getting exposed, but we warned you it would happen.
(http://http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af262/dysfunction_junction/WhootersPrecious.gif)
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Soooo...I miss a few days of reading and come back to "Whooter made up having a daughter and had a son in wilderness"? Somehow this does not surprise me.
Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Face it.....you got busted buddy boy.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I admit that, Anne, but read through the thread and see what they did to this woman "worried Anne" and calling her son gay and pretending to be survivors with her son.
I dont see it as being wrong at all. I feel sorry for the woman. I would probably do it again if the situation warranted.
...
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Soooo...I miss a few days of reading and come back to "Whooter made up having a daughter and had a son in wilderness"? Somehow this does not surprise me.
Actually if you read the link back to the original posts you will see that I was guest posting trying to balance out some pretty bad posts against a mother named "Worried Anne" . I posted that I had a son who attended to offset the trolls. If you read through it you will see why I posted what I did.
...
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??? So you made up having a kid you didn't have to "add balance"? I don't get that at all. You spend day after day here calling other posters "liars" and now we find out you invented your whole story. Greeeeat. What else have you made up besides your children?
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??? So you made up having a kid you didn't have to "add balance"? I don't get that at all. You spend day after day here calling other posters "liars" and now we find out you invented your whole story. Greeeeat. What else have you made up besides your children?
Well,this is what the other fornits posters were saying about this mothers child:
OMG I was there with your kid, what a small world. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your son is gay and had the time of his life sucking off all of us for extra rice. That's the real reason he gained weight.. well.. and he swallows. Extra nutrients!
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=344472#p344472)
I jumped in to counter what was being done to her. Maybe it wasnt one of my best decisions but I wrote it and stand behind what I write. If you notice no one else here seemed to care that she was being beat up like that.
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So because some people were saying something you didn't agree with, you lied about having a child in a program? Seriously, man, you need a lot of help. This throws your entire history here into the dump. I can't really believe anyone would even do something like that. Sure, maybe embellish a little here and there, but to create a new family to tell program success stories about is beyond weird and completely dishonest. Looking back at your other posts, quite a few stand out as obvious lies as well. That, plus you run around here all the time accusing everyone else of lying but you turn out to be the "biggest liar ever" on Fornits and that's an accomplishment! At least now we know!
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??? So you made up having a kid you didn't have to "add balance"? I don't get that at all. You spend day after day here calling other posters "liars" and now we find out you invented your whole story. Greeeeat. What else have you made up besides your children?
Well,this is what the other fornits posters were saying about this mothers child:
OMG I was there with your kid, what a small world. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your son is gay and had the time of his life sucking off all of us for extra rice. That's the real reason he gained weight.. well.. and he swallows. Extra nutrients!
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=344472#p344472)
I jumped in to counter what was being done to her. Maybe it wasnt one of my best decisions but I wrote it and stand behind what I write. If you notice no one else here seemed to care that she was being beat up like that.
Ah... and well that you might say that, leaving out pertinent details of the context! :D
You see, "Worried Anne" sounded SO very much like one of your many sock puppets, that someone even posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=344472#p344431), immediately in response to said OP:
^^^ thewho.
Quite understandable then, that you subsequently rushed in to defend yourself...
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??? So you made up having a kid you didn't have to "add balance"? I don't get that at all. You spend day after day here calling other posters "liars" and now we find out you invented your whole story. Greeeeat. What else have you made up besides your children?
Well,this is what the other fornits posters were saying about this mothers child:
OMG I was there with your kid, what a small world. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your son is gay and had the time of his life sucking off all of us for extra rice. That's the real reason he gained weight.. well.. and he swallows. Extra nutrients!
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=344472#p344472)
I jumped in to counter what was being done to her. Maybe it wasnt one of my best decisions but I wrote it and stand behind what I write. If you notice no one else here seemed to care that she was being beat up like that.
Ah... and well that you might say that, leaving out pertinent details of the context! :D
You see, "Worried Anne" sounded SO very much like one of your many sock puppets, that someone even posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=344472#p344431), immediately in response to said OP:
^^^ thewho.
Quite understandable then, that you subsequently rushed in to defend yourself...
But Ursus, my posts have been all linked together so we know that "Worried Anne" was not me posting. So I wasn't jumping in to defend myself. I jumped in to defend this woman having her son talked about like that. Survivor on survivor can be very vicious as we have all seen. Those were terrible things you people were saying about her son and fellow survivor.
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I can't really believe anyone would even do something like that. Sure, maybe embellish a little here and there....
So why do you think it is okay for survivors to embellish their stories? This has always been a curious question for me. There are people who come on here for information on programs and the industry and they encounter people like yourself who embellish their stories and cry abuse which to me is the same as lying.
Why cant people just be honest and tell it straight out the way it is?
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Whoops. So much for that phony family fairy tale. Whooter has to make up a new family now with a new story so he can "prove" that the programs saved his phony kid and family. :beat: :beat: :beat: :beat: :beat: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Speaking of wilderness programs and sex, it happens all the time... at least when I was there it did. Its not like they handed out condoms so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls go home from wilderness with a whole new set of issues brewing inside them. I never saw a wild tribe like orgy until I was in wilderness, and don't think the staff don't join in. Parents have no idea what happens out there, it was insane.
Thanks guest,I knew it wasnt as bad as people were saying here. The kids do have fun on these trips, I kind of thought that.
Your welcome, my son really liked it and would like to become a counselor some day which has motivated him to study harder.
Face it.....you got busted buddy boy.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I admit that, Anne, but read through the thread and see what they did to this woman "worried Anne" and calling her son gay and pretending to be survivors with her son.
I dont see it as being wrong at all. I feel sorry for the woman. I would probably do it again if the situation warranted.
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Vaughn Heath - he was the therapist when I went there from June-August 2000 (though he was therapist longer than that, I just don't know how long). He's from Canada.
http://www.heal-online.org/secondnat.htm
This is a staff list for Second Nature Wilderness Program(s) in Duchesne, UT, Santa Clara, UT, Clayton, GA, & Bend, OR
(we are working to acquire the complete records for ALL years)
We advise current and/or former staff to report abuses you witnessed while working at Second Nature Wilderness Program. For information on your rights and how to take action, visit http://www.heal-online.org/blowthewhistle.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/blowthewhistle.htm). If you were fired or forced to resign because you opposed any illegal and unethical practices at Second Nature Wilderness Program, you have the right to take action.
If you are a victim (family or survivor) of Second Nature Wilderness Program, please contact [email protected] if you remember the long-term employees and from which years. This will help! Also, if you recognize any of these staff as having worked at another program, please send in any information about their past or present employment at other facilities and/or cults.
Please don’t place your loved one in Second NatureWilderness Program and rescue them if they are there now.
Name
Unit/Position
Additional Information
Brad M. Reedy Founder ALL PROGRAMS--Brad currently sits on the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs Board and the Utah Board of the Department of Child and Family Services.
In the public sector, Brad worked at Loma Linda University Hospital, at Riverside Family Service Agency, and at Center for Family Development. In private practice, Brad has also worked with individuals and families with eating disorders and other addictions. Brad worked as a field therapist and Clinical Director with Aspen Achievement Academy and Aspen Ranch.
Cheryl Kehl Founder Prior to founding Second Nature, she was the Clinical Director at Aspen Achievement Academy (a therapeutic wilderness program in southern Utah) where she worked as a wilderness therapist and staff supervisor for five years. Her experience also includes serving as the Clinical Director at Aspen Ranch (a residential treatment program for adolescents in southern Utah), as a therapist at the Comprehensive Clinic at Brigham Young University(BYU) in Provo, Utah, Wasatch Mental Health and the American Psychological Association in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Devan Glissmeyer Founder Devan’s experience includes work at the Center for Family Development. He worked as a field therapist at Aspen Achievement Academy.
Leah Halverson Admissions
Shahara Davis Admissions
Steve Kirk Admissions
Tere Snodgrass Admissions
Lori Armbruster Admissions
Ben Pearson Therapist Duchesne, UT Location--UINTAS/Uintas Program--Ben began working with adjudicated youth for the Anasazi Foundation in the fall of 1997. In January of 2000, Ben came to Second Nature.
Bryan Lepinske Therapist Prior to his return to Second Nature Bryan was on the clinical team at Willow Creek School, a program in Provo, Utah. He has also worked as a primary therapist at Vista Adolescent Treatment Center in Magna, Utah.
Jake Blackwelder Therapist Blackwelder has been with Second Nature since 2004.
Jason Capel Clinical Director Jason completed his undergraduate work at the University of Utah with Bachelors degrees in Psychology and Physiology in 1989. While there, he worked as a research assistant in the areas of human sexuality and memory working with both human and animal subjects.
Jason Dalton Therapist The last program he worked at before joining Second Nature was Logan River Academy where he worked for nearly 3 ½ years. While working at LRA, Jason saw a large number of students coming from wilderness program. Graduate of BYU.
Jen Murphy Counselor . In 2000, and for the next four years, Jen worked for Aspen Achievement Academy. Jen left Aspen Achievement in 2004 when she was sought by Second Nature.
Jennifer Wilde Counselor Moving to a private facility in 1999, Jennifer worked at Island View Residential Center for seven years. She has also worked as the Clinical Director at Willow Creek School.
Jess Jewell Teacher Jess also worked at Gateway Academy, a residential treatment program in Salt Lake City. In addition, Jess completed an internship with ChoicePoint Therapeutic Services.
Jody St. Joseph Therapist
Patrick Logan Outreach Director Formerly worked for Hurricane Island Outward Bound's S.T.E.P. program, an adjudicated intervention program
1995, parts of '96 and '97 Aspen Achievement Academy Senior Instructor and Team Leader (responsible for supervising and developing both rotations of Instructors in the field). For 8 months in '96, Hidden Lake Academy as their Assistant Wilderness Director 1999 joined Second Nature as Field Director, helped develop Second Nature Cascades (Bend, Oregon), Information Technology projects, assisted with Willowcreek School (a.k.a. Willow Creek School)and continue as Outreach Director.
Shaun Woodard Field Director He joined Second Nature in 2000 as a field instructor.
Steve DeBois Clinical Director He worked for Youth Care residential program prior to coming to Second Nature.
Andy Dunn Therapist Clayton, GA--Second Nature Blue Ridge--Andy worked as a field guide for a wilderness program in Maine and a residential therapy program in Hawaii for adjudicated youth.* Andy arrived at Second Nature, Utah in the Spring of 2000.
Dan McDougal Owner/Partner/Program Director He then went on to work as a senior wilderness instructor at Aspen Achievement Academy in Loa, Utah. He was hired by Second Nature Utah to assist in the development of the field program at its inception in 1998. He has worked as a Senior Mentor and Field Director with Second Nature Utah. In 2002 he developed and co-founded Second Nature Blue Ridge.
Dana Karkotsky Parent Coordinator Dana worked for two years as a clinical assistant at Ridgeview Institute on the Child/Adolescent Program. After working at Ridgeview Institute, Dana came to Second Nature Blue Ridge as a field instructor.
Diana Gordick Counselor
Erica Thiessen Counselor She worked both as a lead peer group counselor for two groups as well as wilderness counselor at The Academy at Swift River, a therapeutic boarding school in Massachusetts, before moving to Asheville in 2003.
Jeff Scott Clinical Director Jeff has worked at SUWS of the Carolinas as well as the Aspen Achievement Academy. He has also worked at Charter Provo Canyon School and the Heritage School.
Paul Case Psychiatrist Paul Case, Psy.D. is a clinical psychologist who joins Second Nature Blue Ridge from Montana Academy, where he worked as a Clinical Supervisor and therapist for four years.
Tony Issenmann Therapist
Tyson Farmer Field Director Tyson became a backcountry instructor at Alternative Youth Adventures (an Aspen Education Group program) in Loa, Utah in 2001. Tyson started working at Second Nature Blue Ridge as a field instructor shortly after it opened in December 2002.
Amanda Lilla Admin. Director
Mary Flora Counselor Formerly employed with Phoenix Outdoor wilderness program.
Lu Vaughn Counselor Lu worked as a Program Director with Boy’s Clubs of America. She worked 7 years with the State of North Carolina Alcohol and Drug Abuse Treatment Center; Director of an adult "therapeutic community"; Primary Therapist and Clinical Director for an adolescent "therapeutic" boarding school located in Bahia de Kino, Mexico; Clinical Director for Coral Reef Academy located in Samoa. She is still listed as the clinical director for Coral Reef Academy.*
Allison Hilemon Psychiatrist Santa Clara, UT Location--Entrada--Joined Second Nature in 2007.
Becca Carlin Asst. Field Director In 2004 she moved to Salt Lake City and began working for Second Nature in Duchesne as a Field Instructor.
Beth Fogel Therapist Beth is a licensed social worker in both Utah and Pennsylvania and has been working in her field since 1994. Beth has experience with adolescents in both inpatient hospital, residential and wilderness settings. Most recently, Beth has worked for Passages to Recovery.
Charlie Carlin Counselor
Gail Bramlet Office Mgr. Gail is the Entrada Office Manager since 2004.
Justin Stum Therapist Prior to coming to Second Nature, Justin was employed by RedCliff Ascent, a wilderness therapy program in southern Utah.
Lauren Roberts Field Staff Roberts has been with Second Nature since 2006.
Matt Hoag Therapist (Ph.D.) He began in the wilderness with RedCliff Ascent in southern Utah. He then worked for three years at Aspen Achievement Academy as a field therapist, assistant clinical director and director of research. At both programs, Matt conducted psychological and psychoeducational evaluations with adolescents. He has worked at both Second Nature programs in Utah, and done psychological testing at all four Second Nature programs. He has been with Second Nature for nine years and helped start Second Nature Entrada five years ago. (as of 2009).
Mayer Jeppson Therapist (Ph.D.) Mayer focused his clinical experience on at-risk adolescent and adult populations. He has conducted psychological assessments and/or conducted individual and group therapy through St. Elizabeth's Hospital (a forensic mental hospital based in D.C.); the Northwest Child and Family Community Support Center in D.C.; the Juvenile Addictions Receiving Facility (JARF) at Jackson Memorial Hospital, Miami, Florida; Juvenile Detention Center (JDC) in Miami, Florida; South Miami Excel Shelter; University of Miami Institute for Family Living; Brigham Young University Comprehensive Clinic; Utah State Fourth District Juvenile Court; Utah State Adult Probation and Parole Salt Lake City Daily Reporting Center; Utah State Board of Pardons; Utah State Prison Sex-Offender Treatment Program; and the Utah State Prison Olympus Forensic Mental Health Unit. Before his psychology internship from September 2006 to September 2007, Mayer worked as an assistant therapist and primary therapist at the Second Nature, Duchesne site.
Mike Hench Therapist Most recently Mike has worked in the youth/young adult treatment industry as a program therapist for SunHawk Academy, a residential treatment program operated by Aspen Education Group in St. George, UT, and as the Director of the Medicine Wheel program, a wilderness therapy program for young adults operated by RedCliff Ascent in Enterprise, UT.
Paul Goddard Therapist (Ph.D.) Paul Goddard was Clinical Director at Aspen Achievement Academy in 2005. Goddard was the psychologist at New Haven, Clinical Director at Vista, and both Clinical Director and Executive Director at Adirondack Leadership Academy in New York.
Rick Heizer Owner/Program Director Rick joined the Second Nature team in their first year of operation. During his time with Second Nature, Rick has held positions as Field Coordinator, Assistant Field Director, Field Director and Program Director. Currently Rick is an owner and the Program Director for Second Nature Entrada.
Sean Roberts Instructor Sean also worked for Outward Bound’s Department of Juvenile Justice and DCF programs. Sean joined Second Nature Entrada in the early fall of 2005 as a wilderness instructor.
Brian Rossiter NO TITLE(?) Bend Location--Second Nature Cascade(s)--He also worked with the CEDU schools for seven years, as the Program Director for Phoenix Outdoor Education Center in Vermont and as Program Manager at the Ascent program.
Cindy Fogel Therapist Fogel has worked in industry since 2001.
(Dr.) J. Huffine (male) Therapist He started working in a wilderness program in Texas in 1998, before moving to Oregon where he has been Clinical Director at SageWalk the past five years.
(Dr.) Willow Huffine (female) Therapist
(Second Nature Wilderness Program, like many other programs in this industry, keeps a "tight lid" on any specific information regarding their staff, qualifications, and practices. Please contact us with the names of any staff of which you have firsthand knowledge or experience. Thank you for your help.)
Last Updated: August 3rd, 2009