Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: cleveland on January 05, 2005, 11:49:00 AM
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If you look on the other forums here, it won't take too long before you find a similar story...someone claiming this of that Program helped them, while others will claim it was the work of the Devil...
My personal view is that when you deliberately stress people out, confront them with their faults and weaknesses in a group setting, make them emotionally vulnerable and confess their weaknesses, and finally have them swear allegience to either the the leader or the group itself...and dedicate themselves to spreading this message...
Some will seemingly achieve big life changes - seemingly a 'miracle.' Some will reject it and leave. Others will stay for a bit, then move on. Point is, what happens years down the road? Why do we need to use this way to achieve change, if it even works, these techniques can create monsters too (Hitler Youth?)
Isn't there a better way to change your life?
Personally, I think so, but it is hard work. I don't really believe in 'miracles'...just the long slow work of changing yourself for the better...
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testing sig
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I can't believe it...
People will spend all day arguing about whether the Seed was good or bad, but won't talk about the program itself...
Good or bad, what were the 'techniques,' what were the 'tools,' everyone refers to? I'm sorry, I hate vagueness when it comes to taking a position...
Let's talk about it: is it OK to stress kids out, aggravate their sense of shame, restrict their rights, instill an unquestioning belief in authority, and restrict their contact with the outside world? Would anyone argue that this is not what the Seed did in fact - and the same techniques are used by WWASP today? Is it OK 'for their own good?' Is it OK if I think it 'helped' me?
The stories people tell in these forums are all the same, more or less...
Tell me I'm wrong!
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Your not wrong Cleveland. The thing is, some people buy into the myth that they were so damaged, so worthless, that this saved them from themselves.
They for some reason don't realize they were for the most part just children going thru normal teenage problems.
As far as the tools, they were 7 of the twelve steps lifted from AA. They were really meaningless in the overall scheme of what "worked" at the seed. I contend you could have replaced them with anything and still got the same result.
The real effective part of the experience were the cultic aspects. The motivating, the forced attention at all times, the public humiliation and confessions, the constant threat of punishment, the love bombing, the restriction of freedom and thought, the forcing of demonizing all pre-seed memories, the isolation from the rest of the world, the us and them mentality...
these are the real techniques. The steps and "signs" were just fluff IMO, especially in light of the fact that they were using addiction treatment "steps" on mostly non addicted kids.
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Greg,
I'd like to hear from some of the folks who feel the Seed helped them, and explain how they were helped - did separating them from the outside world, subjecting them to group confession and day-long raps, having them live segregated from each other by sex and from the outside world - what tools came from that?
In short, how does that work to make you a better person? Some people here think it did...I'm not going to argue with their reality but I am interested in how 'honesty, the gift of self-awareness, and wanting to 'do the right thing' come from those things above. Or do those things come from something else?
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Well, I finally made good use of; "Made direct amends to those we had harmed." Ten years after graduating the seed I looked up my former best friend from high school (that's 'old druggie friend' in seed lingo) and apologized to him for being such an arrogant asshole right after I left the seed (& attempting to get him into the program). He graciously forgave me. I've done similar direct amends to several of my old friends. There were so many that I was rude and condescending towards simply because they smoked pot from time to time or drank alcohol. The seed reasoning was that if they were friends with me before the seed then they 'must' be horrible druggies.
It was part of the same all or nothing, good or evil thinking. 'Before I came to the seed I was a complete asshole, now I'm straight and happy and love everybody...' What a crock. I'd mouth this stuff at the time even though I was lonely & miserable at the seed. I wish I had all of the years the program (and court system) directly and indirectly stole from my youth. In my case, I literally had no choice but to complete the program. If I screwed-up, I would have been sent back to prison to serve the remainder of a 5 year sentence. Those were the terms of my probation. Talk about motivation for going with the program!
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Marshall,
I wonder what, from your perspective now, would have made a difference when you were a kid? There are still a lot of these kinds of programs out there, using the same language and structure, justified because kids "need" them. You were in some serious trouble - what would have helped you then? If you could magically go back, what would you do for the person you were 20 or 30 years ago?
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I would simply try to be a friend to that person and listen to his concerns with an open heart The serious trouble that I was in was of a legal sort. If I were living during the prohibition years and had been arrested for selling bathtub gin or illegal whiskey it would have been a similar type of trouble. I use no illegal drugs but I am opposed to the nation's drug laws. Prohibition does not work and creates more harm in it's attempt to alleviate drug use. I don't know that I needed any specific help other than being allowed to be a typical teenager, testing limits, rebeling and growing up without being subjected to adult prison and a mind control cult at 17. My best guess is that I would have outgrown my fascination with drugs...just as I've witnessed countless other teens pass thru this phase to go on to live happy, productive lives.
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Marshall, I do remember you I think - glasses?- 5 years of time wasn't just handed out for being a bad boy was it? So you went to the Seed for a much cushier time. Sorry Pal something is missing here? Unless everyone in the Georgia court system had it out for you as a 17yr old. Am I missing something?
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I really do feel a certain percentage of kids would have stopped doing drugs and grown out of it on their own if they had a decent family and were just normal teenagers. I personally didn't see alot of "normal" ones. Yes some people were overboard about things. I really never got into hero worship or was moonie like. Have you ever seen kids durring a pep rally I never got into that when I was a kid either. School spirit. I needed something and the seed is what I got... and It did help me. I said why we sing jingle bells...and felt a little uncomfortable doing it but I think that was good for me. Yes I really do. It helped break me out of the depressed slump or lethargic attitudes I posessed. I never had a nice christmas as a kid someone was always calling the police on someone or someone was getting hit or yelled at or something along these lines ::boohoo:: I know you may say whatever...
Yes I was the perfect moonie canidate (is that dating myself?) I don't know what one says today about that. People showed me kindness. This I desperatly needed. I wasn't yelled at and locked in a room and I went to the bathroom by myself. It helped me yes I did need to move on did I yes.
Was I envolved for a long time- yes. Did I ever witness abuse -no. Did I ever see a kid get yelled at- yes. Was the Seed perfect-No. I have never heard Antigen or even you Greg(funny I always feel like I talking to Greg???) Talk about anything nice or good about your experience. Was it just hell on a daily basis? or was your heart touched by anyone or ??? Antigen I know you were never on the program but did't anything ever strike you as nice or good? I really do want to know.
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I said I don't 'use' illegal drugs..present tense. Not that I never used them. I was sent to prison & the seed for selling & distributing LSD. Translation: I'd dropped acid a total of 5 times. A classmate had been begging me to sell him a hit and a girl I liked asked me to give her one. She insisted on taking hers at school and flipped out, spilling her guts to the principal who called the police.
And yes, the seed was much cushier than the georgia prison system. I would also probably have chosen to spend time in north korea listening to hours of communist propaganda rather than prison or willingly joined the moonies or hari krishnas if those were the terms of my probation. It doesn't mean these would qualify as good things. All of these would also likely have gotten me off of drugs even if via brainwashing propaganda.
Yep. Sounds like me. Glasses and when I was on the front row....bald too. Haircut courtesy of same ga. prison system. John U. was always rubbing my head...must've thought it was good luck. :smile:
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On 2005-01-08 13:04:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
Antigen I know you were never on the program but did't anything ever strike you as nice or good? I really do want to know.
Oh, of course! Probably never would have been exposed to Monty Python had this one kid not landed up as a foster in our home. Probably, not definitely. Python's pretty big outside the Program too. Sometimes, the singing wasn't bad. I remember a couple of fairly talented ameteur musicians playing at Open Meeting or Group singing a new song really well. But they were never as good or as diverse as half the acts playing at various venues in the area. And that was a trade off. In order to be a good little honorary Seedling (and stay off of front row) I had to pretend shun all popular music and never let slip an interest in going to a concert (other than one in a church involving organ music or opera).
Of course it wasn't 100% horrible. But even the high points were only a little better than the tense moments. Compared to freedom, they would have had no charm at all. Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe. -- My First Summer in the Sierra , 1911, page 110.
John Muir
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See, reading all of these posts together, we have quite a range or opinion...
I'm sure Lauderdale does feel that the Seed saved him from himself...I too was a highly depressed teenager, and the Seed forced me to try to get out of it. For me, it was a temporary solution, but I had to deal with so much underlying stuff that it was many years after I left the Seed that I felt comfortable with myself. And frankly, the seven years I stayed around the Seed, I made no growth at all...
Marshall, one of the potential kids sent to prison for a relatively minor incident - you know how many black kids get sent to prison for selling reefer? It's huge. I'm not arguing the liberal line of no consequences, but I think these consequences are wrong. And remember, the kennedy family made their fortune in bootlegged liquor!
For me, the Seed gave a little, but took a lot...
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i recall eventually just hoping some kinda shit would hit the fan and relieve the everyday horrible monotony and the constant drone of the groups etc.. recall relief at being chosen to perform any kind of job or chore just to get the hell out of the bullshit... and i learned how to blow a helluva smoke ring and that above all else to trust no one or "thrown under the bus" would be the result of any true disclosure.
so ya see some positive results did happen from my seed experience..oh yeah.. they killed kenny... THOSE BASTARDS.
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On 2005-01-08 13:04:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
Was I envolved for a long time- yes. Did I ever witness abuse -no. Did I ever see a kid get yelled at- yes. Was the Seed perfect-No. I have never heard Antigen or even you Greg(funny I always feel like I talking to Greg???) Talk about anything nice or good about your experience. Was it just hell on a daily basis? or was your heart touched by anyone or ???
I think I felt captive and trapped all the time. However, there was a several month period when the techniques had taken over and I was into the experience, but Mostly I think it was because I HAD TO BE.
Immediately after graduating I started talking to Other kids. The seed kids questioned me and I told them I was a graduate and could do what I damned pleased. Very quickly they wouldn't talk to me, at least the kids of their program...
FL, I don't have a lot of good to say about it because it was an oppressive strange way to be a 14 year old,because I never wanted to be a cult member, because I didn't need stepcraft treatment because I was never an addict, because it ruined my high school and family, and because it took me many years to work thru the hurt and anger. The seed really sucked for me...big time.
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On 2005-01-08 15:05:00, marshall wrote:
And yes, the seed was much cushier than the georgia prison system. I would also probably have chosen to spend time in north korea listening to hours of communist propaganda rather than prison "
:grin: :grin:
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http://www.ex-cult.org/ (http://www.ex-cult.org/)
Anyone doubting the cult status of the seed program should read the material on this site. It meets all of the criteria. See especially Lifton's criteria for thought reform, Conditions for mind control and Mind Control, the bite model.
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On 2005-01-09 08:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
Are you speaking of Kenny S****? The one who also had a half-sister in the program? If so, I knew them both and would like to hear more.
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Personally the WWASP program helped me. Do I think it's a cure all? No, far from it. Actually there are a lot of debates going on in the TEEN HELP INDUSTRY Forum. It's quite mind expanding and I suggest you check it out.
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Marshall It sounds like you don't take any responsibility for what happened to the girl at school & selling her LSD?
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On 2005-01-09 21:28:00, marshall wrote:
"http://www.ex-cult.org/
Anyone doubting the cult status of the seed program should read the material on this site. It meets all of the criteria. See especially Lifton's criteria for thought reform, Conditions for mind control and Mind Control, the bite model. "
:nworthy: This needs to go over in the Teen Help forum.
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Give the guy a break. So now choosing to go to the seed is NOT taking responsiblity for one's actions??? I'm going to venture a guess - the program saved your life, you can't imagine where you would be without it and you still love Art & Shelly and the other overlords, right???
Anon, make up your mind. You can't have it both ways - coming down on the guy cause he sold drugs, then come down on the guy cause he chose "rehab" over prison. Prison, BTW, is no place for a child.
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RE: Post above is in response to this posting:
"Marshall It sounds like you don't take any responsibility for what happened to the girl at school & selling her LSD?
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It has nothing to do with taking responsibility. The girl was older than I. She was from atlanta and had used way more drugs including taking acid many times. I didn't sell it to her (that was to a classmate) she asked me for it. Of course I am responsible, and she was also responsible. We were both kids. How many of us sold drugs or gave them to our friends? How many of us got caught and served time for it? Did I deserve prison more than those who didn't get caught? Am I more accountable or responsible because I did?
I have not smoked cigarettes since I was 19. I am against their use. I think they are harmful and responsible for more disease and death than all illegal drugs combined. But I do not think they should be made illegal. I don't think those using or selling them should be imprisoned. (The head of the DEA made a statement a few years ago to John Stossel of ABC suggesting that he thought it was just a matter of time before tobacco becomes illegal) How many of us have given a cigarette to a friend? Shouldn't we also be held responsible for this?
Many of the people I love smoke. I do not want them to be imprisoned either. Nor would I wish for them to be subjected to a seed-like program to break their habit. My feelings about drugs are the same. The way to deal with the issue is not imprisonment or coercive mind control. I was wrong to give her acid but the government was even more wrong (imo) for throwing a kid into prison for it.
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Sorry . I disagree. I think you were let off easy by going to the Seed. 5 years of prison in a GA jail. Please... You can compare it to whatever. Sorry it sounds like to me that you never learned the lesson you were sent there for to begin with- I hold nothing against you personally. This is the way I feel. Do you have kids? Prpbably not if you didn;t learn that one.
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No place for a child???????? I thought he was going to prison for 5 years.
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let me venture a guess. What crimes have you committed and what drugs do you still use?????
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I have 3 children and 3 grandchildren.
I am glad I went to the seed instead of 5 years in prison. I thought I made that plain. That does not mean that I agree with or approve of the seed. I would also have been happy to have been sent to the moonies instead.
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Anon, not sure if this was directed toward me. If so; Crimes... that's a hard one. Jaywalking maybe? I was stopped for speeding twice in the pst 30 years too. Drugs...caffeine (sorry mormons) and very occasional alcohol. I bought a 12 pack of beer about 3 months ago and have 4 left. A glass, maybe 2 of wine with dinner once or twice per week. I did smoke pot once about 11 years ago just out of curiosity. I found much of what I was looking for via drugs by taking up meditation. A practice the seed discouraged.
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Marshall,
One of my best friends before I went to the seed did serious prison time for selling drugs. His name was Mark. He was an adopted kid, and his parents were like family to me too. His mom had grown up on a farm, and his dad was a blue collar guy who had worked his way up, and was one of the smartest people I'd ever known. His parents were not perfect - his mom was working and putting herself thru school, his dad would come home from work and drink a couple of beers, most likely one too many, and his sister, who was adopted too, had some mental issues. But Mark was one of the sweetest guys you'd ever want to know. I got to know him because my sister had a big crush on him - Mark was a 'babe magnet' in Jr. High, looking a little bit like that painting of Jesus with long dark hair. He became a really great friend, and we shared a lot. Naturally, we got high together too. I remember he experimented a bit more than I did. While I was more of a 'brain' in High School, he was solidly in the Freak camp. But Mark was one of those natural charmers who everybody likes. He was a ladies man too, but always the type of guy that old girlfriends would keep in touch with. We had lost touch a bit cause I went to college, and he was going to go to trade school. Then I went in the Seed. I heard thru the grapevine that he'd gone to prison. Well, when I left the Seed one of the first things I did was look Mark up.
Mark was no living at home. His front teeth had been lost in a prison fight; he lost that fight and also was raped. He became an alcoholic, and when he left prison, became a biker and in an accident, lost both of his legs. When I saw him, he was a shadow of the person I knew. He spent his days getting stoned and sitting in bars.
Mark might have had some problems as a kid, but believe me, he was the kid that everybody loved. Sending somebody like this to prison? Of course, selling drugs is wrong. But destroying some kids life for it?
No, I can't say 'society' is totally responsible and Mark is guilt-free. But?
So FT. L, the fact that Marshall avoided prison - fantastic. And he seems like a good guy today.
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anyone else notice that most of the pro seed people have no children, and the anti seed people have children.
Coincidence?
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I'll bet it's because to have kids you have to play games with a chick(s) and get your head IN the gutter at least for a few minutes. :silly:
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Yeah, prinson is no place for a child. A 17 year old in high school is still legally a child - and quite obviously has no concept of consequences.
Maybe going to the seed doesn't have all the terror of prison, but it quite obviously screws people up or we woudln't be here.
I have had clients end up in prison - some rightfuly and some wrongly. But still, not every crime deserves to be punsihed with hard time. Anons above, you must be nuts to think that a kid who is dumb enough to take hits of acid to school and sell the or give them away is suitable for lockup.
Have you ever been in jail or prison? Next time your local state attorney office offers tours of the state prison or local jail - take the opportunity to see that environment from the inside out. See if you really mean what you say.
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the most difficult part of group think is when you finally accepted that you were "invisible" and that those around you were "somebody" because of the status that they held according to the inner circle. There was an inner circle whether some want to admit it or not, and those in it were "supposedly wiser" than those not in the circle. The truth is that people in the "inner circle" had money. Many of those out of the circle could at least provide some service to staff, such as mowing yard or cleaning house. That way staff would not have to pay what any American pays for those service, yet they could save money, lots of it, to be quite secure in thier future. You had to be grateful despite the fact that you had no money, but they did, the idea was that it was "an honor" to clean our house or mow your lawn if you happened to be a staff member or above staff. It was especially "an honor" because you recognized how this person that you were working for for free was a wise, old soul that probably had lived many live before you and now was almost perfect. "After all couldn't you tell by simply noticing that they had a perfect "aura." God forbid you were ever out of line or took for ganted everything staff had done for you. Honestly, where are they today? There were certain lines that were prohibited, like "What have you done for me lately?" Funny, in most relationships it is O.K. to ask that question if one of the spouses is out of line, but not in the group. Many, many, many lies were told over and over again, and from the mouths of hypocrites come the greatest of lies.
With all do respect to any whose life was positevely changes, save what you can from the experience, but to me the "myth" of the personbality cult is dead.
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are you new here? IF so, welcome. Please choose a user name and participate often.
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http://www.cultsock.ndirect.co.uk/MUHom ... index.html (http://www.cultsock.ndirect.co.uk/MUHome/cshtml/index.html)
Excerpts from the link:
"When we find ourselves in groups we inevitably find ourselves in the minority occasionally. Generally speaking, we will feel a little uncomfortable with that situation, which explains why we generally seek out groups with interests similar to our own. Imagine, though, that you are in a group where you are sure you are right and everyone else is wrong. Would you yield to group pressure and go along with everyone else?
In Asch's experiments, a group of people were seated around a table. Of these all but one were actually the experimenters confederates. The group was shown a display of vertical lines of different lengths and were asked to say which of the lines was the same length as another standard line.
One after another, the members of the group announced their decision. The confederates had been asked to give the incorrect response. The subject sat in the next to last seat so that all but one had given their obviously incorrect answer before s/he gave hers/his. Even though the correct answer was always obvious, the average subject conformed to the group response on 32% of the trials and 74% of the subjects conformed at least once.
On the face of it, an astonishing result. The correct answer was entirely obvious. Subjects had to override the very clear evidence of their own senses to give an answer conforming to the others'. Why did they do it? When interviewed afterwards, subjects all said that they had been influenced by the pressure from the rest of the group. This, on the face of it, may appear to be an example of 'groupthink'.
Many said that they did not want to appear silly. That ties in with Rom Harré's claim that one of our secondary needs is a need for 'social respect', which includes the need to avoid looking ridiculous in front of others, the need to avoid criticism from others. That need would be likely to motivate us to seek compromise with others.
There have been other experiments which have tended to confirm Asch's results by and large. Crutchfield's lengthier and more complex experiments seem to confirm a correlation between high intelligence and other personality traits and low conformity."
groupthink - the phenomenon whereby members of a group will not wish to risk any danger to group cohesion by expressing 'deviant' opinions. The decision of Kennedy to invade Cuba is often given as an example. Many of his advisers actually disagreed with his decision, but were unwilling to express deviant views. More recently Reagan's Strategic Defence Initiative ('Star Wars') seems to have developed in a similar way."
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This experiment (Asch) seems to suggest that we could have been told that black is white or most any outrageous falsehood at the Seed (or other peer-pressure based program) and a large proportion of us would have gone along with the group and agreed. If our need to conform is so basic that most of us will agree with the group even when this contradicts our own senses, those types of programs could indeed be used to sway thinking in any way chosen by the group leaders. I would guess that the effect would be even greater on younger adolescents or children.
Note too that the Asch experiment involved a one-time judgment, not an ongoing series of contradictory information on a daily (10 or 12 hours per day) basis. It's hard to imagine the power of such a concerted effort over months or years. Oh wait. I don't have to imagine it! :silly:
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On 2005-12-18 22:01:00, marshall wrote:
This experiment (Asch) seems to suggest that we could have been told that black is white or most any outrageous falsehood at the Seed (or other peer-pressure based program) and a large proportion of us would have gone along with the group and agreed.
Yup, and to some degree, this seperates us from normal folk who have not been served a potent slice of it. But step back and take a broader view. Let's take something that's been in the papers a lot lately; school yard bullying. We all had our opinions and strategies when we were kids. But that all had to fit somewhere within the given social framework. Otherwise, it was a mighty hard row to ho and we all did have at least some choices.
So how did we do that? You must admit that some horrible things happened in school and in the neighborhood. And we all checked each other's faces before deciding what to make of any of it.
The Program, and it's victims/veterans/survivors, are not really that unique and seperate from the rest of society. It's a matter of degrees. We got a potent slice of it served up by a bunch of self important do-gooders. I think we're all (who bother to stay in touch, anyway) either alergic to it and/or addicted to it. But it's really all the same ingredients, isn't it?Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.
Mark Twain
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These are the ingredients for the police state - lack public dissent against the "leadership" everyone (except a few "true believers) has doubts or knows the prevailing view to be bullshit however...
Anyone who questions the status quo is immediately shouted down or worse. Everyone is pulled in to participate in the punishment of the unfortunate dissenter, thereby showing their loyalty. This prevents any cohesion among the opposition and reinforces the aloneness of the dissenter, and strength of the group.
The easy path is to not stick out, mouth the party line when spoken to, put the radio by the door so the secret police can hear you listening to the furhers speech.
As said earlier, this is what keeps the group going, the signs and steps are immaterial; Fear and peer pressure are the main ingredients. You are either with us or against us, seeling or a druggie...
I think what makes stepcraft survivors different is that we have participated in the Asch experiment writ large, and know what we (and others)are capable of in that situation.
After a while on the program, the ideals of loyalty, honesty, integrity, and character start to seem pretty hollow as you realize what you are and are not capable of while sitting in the group watching someone you thought was your friend get humiliated in front of the world - and you look like you want join in (you have your hand up, don't you?)
The sad thing is how many of us felt the same, but were afraid to express it.
We are conditioned thru a year of pre school, a year of kindergarden, 12 years of school, the church (most any church wil do) to listen to the authority (the teacher, staff member, boss) to do as we are told, the authority has the answer - not you. this creates good little citezens and workers.
And you thought school was here to teach you to read.
It sounds so simple but how many are really willing to exercise free will when it might hurt?
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I guess thats where having balls comes in ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce::
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Good comments, Johnny G.
It is amazing how hard it is to resist peer pressure.
I was just reading a book by David Sedaris, and he wrote this whole chapter about being a kid and wanting to be cool, and how ashamed he was to be caught trying to be accepted. About how badly he wanted to have this suede vest, and how when he bought it it was imitation, and that when he wore it, the hippy girl he was trying to impress laughed at him.(Book title: Dress Your Family in Courderoy and Denim). He ends the chapter with how much, looking back, he can hardly wait to be the person who can dress as they want, talk as they want, and think as they want without imagining how it is coming off to everyone.
And while the Seed gave me the ability to stop trying to be 'cool,' it set it's own standards of conformity that were even steeper in some ways.
It doesn't take 'balls' to be yourself - it takes having empathy for others and realizing that we're all human. I suppose that is maturity.
[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-12-20 12:58 ]
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I think we all saw people with "balls" and how that worked out (didn't they have their hands up too?)
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On 2005-12-20 12:06:00, Johnny G wrote:
I think what makes stepcraft survivors different is that we have participated in the Asch experiment writ large, and know what we (and others)are capable of in that situation.
:nworthy:
Dude! I've been trying for close to ten years to write just that.
After a while on the program, the ideals of loyalty, honesty, integrity, and character start to seem pretty hollow as you realize what you are and are not capable of while sitting in the group watching someone you thought was your friend get humiliated in front of the world - and you look like you want join in (you have your hand up, don't you?)
The sad thing is how many of us felt the same, but were afraid to express it.
Yeah. And I just got done reading about exactly this happening in Nazi Germany. A popular joke at the time was "Oh yes, the master race, blond like Hitler, tall like Goebbels, slim like Goering!" This originated in Germany among Nazi party members. Now, these party members, interviewed at length 8 years into the American occupation, did not at all approve of many of the things the Nazis did. The burning of the synagogs, for example, got under a lot of people's skin. But, of course, the Jewish problem. They were out to destroy and enslave the Germanic peoples, right? And the concentration camps. No good German approved of such things. So, instead, they dismissed the rumors as enemy propaganda.
Now, is it paranoia or prescience to be sooooo sensitive to such things?Men had better be without education than be educated by their rulers.
--Thomas Hodgskin
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On 2005-12-20 12:57:00, cleveland wrote:
It doesn't take 'balls' to be yourself - it takes having empathy for others and realizing that we're all human. I suppose that is maturity.
Yeah that, or true and complete resignation. lol
Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
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The Seed for me was a little more complicated than this. When I realized that it was time for me to be on my way was when I saw how I had replaced my dependency on drugs to a unnatural dependency on the Seed. The Seed had become too much of a crutch and when I realized this I saw how unnatural and debilitating things had become.
It is easy now so many years later to be able to say this but, when this happened it seemed to me to be the hardest decision in my life. It seemed to me that I was questioning the very essence and foundation of who I was and at the very least I was eliminating my only safety net. I felt like I was questioning my loyalty, my resolve as a person to be able out last any adversity. I wondered if all I had professed to be would be negated by my leaving and I would be nothing more than just another hypocrite.
In truth the hypocrisy was in the overbearing dependence and control the program held over it?s own. This only served to mechanize and control and in essence destroy any progress that was actually made by anyone who was involved and was actually trying to move forward. I can remember old friends accusing me of being brainwashed and how I took pride in being able to shut them out from my life taking comfort in the thought that I knew the truth and the only valid truth.
Time and life have taught me some tough and humbling lessons and through this I have been able to sift through those years and determine what was valid and what was hurtful and destructive, I guess this will be a life long chore. The Seed being that of this world reflected this world in its flaws and its politics and it?s inner complexities but, by no means did this negate it?s truth and it?s sound philosophies. In the end I was able to exercise what scared us the most which; was my own freewill.
The Seed in my opinion through my experience as life can be was both a blessing and a curse . I thank God that I found the Seed and than when the time came I had the ability to walk away. What surprised me the most was in the end what opened the door for me was my overwhelming desire to make my own decisions and live as I choose to live my life.
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Jgar, well said.
I think that is why it is difficult for me to be all one way or the other when it comes to the Seed. I did feel idealistic, a part of something, connected to other people in a way I had never been before. The ideal of honesty was one that is very important to me. Being able to stand up for myself, or go against the flow of society, was also very important. But there was the flipside - the ideals that got applied differently to different people, the hierarchy or control, the expectations of conformity to the group - and for me the loneliness of not really being able to be myself, open and free. So, I learned lessons, but I really learned them after I left. Not that I am some paragon of virtue or anything.
Leaving the Seed was like leaving a marriage, or a family, or any total ripping away of the past. It reminds me of the person who said something like life only consists of two actions - saying hello, and saying goodbye.
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You two guys just outline how different the seed was for different people. For the vast majority of us, we graduated and got the hell away from it as soon as we could.
You guys that choose to stay around take an entirely different perspective from the seed experience than the 'normal' seed attendee or graduate. Most of us that graduated and then tried to leave never had that severe attachment or hard breakup that you others' had. I always wondered how you people viewed your experience as it seemed such an alien concept to me that someone would stay around there voluntarily after they could just leave and go on with their lives.
I see evidence in your writings that guilt laden coersion was a part of the reason you guys stayed around, mixed with a sense of idealistic purpose and misplaced loyalty. I hope you don't take this wrong, but it seems a bit sad that you guys devoted so much time and energy into the seed instead of devoting that energy into living a less directed and controlled life. It is also inspiring that you were able to break away and come to terms with the experience and find purpose away from the group. It is a really, really, interesting story you tell.
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Hey Walt and thanks,
This to me was such a mind fuck. At first as I tried to strike out in the world thinking that I was so sure of what was right and what I needed to say and do and finding out how easily people would drop me or avoid me(both from the Seed and new acquaintances). Than at some point true loneliness kicked in and a very real sense of being so alone. Still I held onto the idea that if I made some adjustments and continued to move forward I would come out OK. It?s funny how with time so many questions get answered and a fuzzy picture slowly begins to clear. The group never realized that hiding behind its wall would stunt one?s growth. I agree with you in saying my true growth happened outside the group once I had learned certain basic lessons.
I remember at first how careful I was in daring to question some of the Seeds positions as if I was being some sort of heretic and would be burned at the stake for daring to think different. I was very cautious with dealing with other graduates who were still involved careful as not to say the wrong thing. On one occasion I was shunned by another graduated because I was no longer part of the group and how hurt and angered I was by this situation but yet this only confirmed to me the importance to go and develop in my own way.
I will say that not until I began to post on this sight did I dare to strike out with some negative aspects so openly in my words. In truth I would not even allow myself to think of these things fearing that this could cause my unraveling and ultimately my destruction.
To this day I will state that the Seed did change me when I needed to change but this did not mean that I needed to be an indentured servant for the rest of my days.
?But than again it?s only life after all?. (Indigo girls ?Closer to Fine")
[ This Message was edited by: jgar on 2005-12-21 07:40 ]
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THere was a period where the Seed was trying to retain people, as the newcomer rate was pretty slow - and everyone was from some distance away.
In my case the only people I knew outside the program didn't have a lot to offer (I was working at JT Reese, stay cool roofing, construction). So the easiest thing to do was to stick around - also the rhetoric encouraged that. I think if I had stayed in Cleveland I would have gone home after I graduated. My mother came to hate Art Barker about a weekafter I moved to Ft. Lauderdale so I think I would have pretty much disappeared.
I think the Seed gave me the opportunity to get out of the mess I had gotten myself in - one can second guess the prison dead or crazy bit but I gotta say I came out better than I went in.
As far as being around as long as I was, as mentioned above, the program encouraged that. I also had set a goal of not fucking up for 5 years and leaving under my own power(5 years seemed to be a milestone - and the folks I initally viewed as more together had been around that long).
I accomplished that and left very shortly thereafter - I did feel like I left in the nick of time; A Staff member had mentioned spending more time in the group after a conversation I had with a female seed kid got reported up the ladder.
I was fortunate to be around for the period after the open meetings and before the football games at the beach. That was a good (but short lived) time when there was a definite break in the routine and control - went mud boggin' in Jeffs truck (cracked the windshield with my head) and got stuck up to the axles. Twisted a few wrenches, did some fishing, had fun.
I also think it eased the transition quite a bit that I worked away from other seedlings, so I could be myself at work (someone noticed that I was happiest on Monday morning and almost bummed out on Friday afternoon)
Once the football games started I was lucky to be able to "watch the house" most of the time.
I worked my leaving in with a visit home so I could work things out in a more timely manner, came back a week early, got my stuff one afternoon and moved to Coconut Grove. I wasn't really interested in what the Seed thought of my decision.
It took me a couple years to get adjusted to the freedom and the social aspect of life, I felt like Rip van Winkle.
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Johnny G.
Your post brought back many memories - Stay Cool roofing, J.T. Reese, and some good times, too. I remember that brief period of almost freedom as a time when the Seed staff was trying to figure out what to do with the graduates who were sticking around, especially when we weren't at work or in the group. Most of us got assigned to tasks - watching Art's house, working on his boat, cutting grass, fixing cars. We were glad to do it too - we were working together, and having a blast sometimes. We also had a bit more free time on the weekends, once the regular weekend raps were shortened, then eliminated. I drove down to the Keys with Jim H. and a couple of other guys - we drove 70 miles an hour on the wrong side of the road, poached lobsters from the bay, and laughed our asses off - all the fun you can have sober and celebate at age 20! We did a midnight fishing trip in the everglades, and a couple of other things, until staff came upon a solution - endless weekend games of football and baseball! And I do mean endless - starting at 11:00 am or so and going on until 1:00 am or so at first, plus digging out the drainage ditches in the back field and making a baseball diamond by hand. And let me tell you what - I am a particulary bad and uninterested ball player. I would rather get a root canal. And since that became our only weekend option for some years after you left, my life was hell - OK, not as bad as prison or death, but certainly torture. Plus, the jealous feelings for those who were gifted at sports, because of the attention they got and because they were actually having fun doing something that I couldn't stand - it was like a never ending 7th grade PE class of dodgeball.
I'm still bitter, can you tell?
Anyway, after I left, freedom tasted so, so, so sweet. Of course, I was lonely and confused at times too, and made many mistakes but - I think I made the most of my freedom.
And Greg, yes, it's crazy that there is a group of us who volunteered for 5-7-10 years to be a part of this small small group - but Johnny G. remeinded me of why I stayed, and why I left, too.
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Just for the record I was not fond of the football games. I loved going to the beach but not the endless football games and I was not crazy about playing spades. I just figured you take the good with the bad. I did really enjoy body suffering or the bogie boards or snorkeling.
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I always thought the only people having fun were on Arts team, the rest of us were just there to get beat.
Tried playing hard once or twice and found out that the loser team was just supposed to go thru the motions. Then I got banished to the house to work on something, or just watch TV, hang out, whatever - it was alone time, somewhat free to at least think my own thoughts and relax. I am also athletically challenged especially when it involves round or spheroid objects that you should throw, hit or catch. WHat exposure I had to the games there definitely sucked, so it WAS a privledge to have something else to do.
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
LOL Johnny.
I think you left the Seed just before I came in. I went in around October of 83
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greg, its only sad if its wasted. and you can do soemthing like this, not neccessarily even what you want and not feel it was wasted. or lets say, fully wasted. if there was something useful during that time, then it was worth some price. i've thought about that for myself personally, choosing to stay when i knew there were things i did not like, but it met certain goals at the time. maybe another choice might have been better, but then we dont get to live the alternate reality so i wouldnt know if something else would have turned out better or worse. but i dont think my time was wasted, or better stated, all of my time was wasted. some things i just ignored, like i was spinning my wheels and i knew it but was just waiting for something else. taking what good there was as more important at the time then what i was giving up. every decision in life can offer some gain, and some loss. its a matter of what your goal is in this way. my goal was met in some regards, so i never felt that was wasted. this was just a choice. one direction of many i could have gone. i knew i chose to stay. i knew i sacraficed some things by doing so. it was annoying living with people who had more difficulty with roomates then i did, even though they might have been older, silly to listen to them lecture. but i knew what i was doing. i think the people that had the hardest time at the end, were the ones that stayed but never knew why. maybe it was peer pressure, maybe they just didnt know what they wanted in life, or fear kept them there. i think they have the hardest time because they feel like they never made a choice? one reason why i think you have to take control of your life, making your own decisions, or asking advice if I want you to but knowing you are soliciting someone's opinion and giving up your own free will if you chose to listen. its still all your choice. they dont suffere the consequences if the person's advice is bad, you do. some people just didnt seem to get that. i watch some of them now still looking for someone else to tell them what to do. makes me want to scream. after all that, and yet they still dont want to make their own choices? mind you...they complain about how they couldnt make choices...but they repeat the behavior. now thats frustrating.
i've said it before, but i think the biggest tradegy at the seed was it preached one thing, but did another (i.e.think for yourself, but surpressed free thinking) and people didnt either have enough sense to see the duality, or for various reasons surpressed their thoughts when they saw it, a bit like jgar is talkingh about questioning his thoughts that might have questioned the seeds perfection. some people just seemed to think well the seed has to be perfect, so it must be me thats wrong....when it wasnt them. they were seeing parts of the truth.
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Anonymous,
I get what you are saying here. Sure I was court ordered into the seed. Yes, I fought signing the intake paper. No, I didn't want to be there. Yes, I was scared- only because I had no idaea what the seed was all about. For myself, I listened to the raps, and low and behold, I started learning something about myself. I was 17 yrs old in 1973 St.Pete seed. I had been running away all the time, selling drugs, doing every drug I could get my hands on, I drank myself to oblivion, had some very bad trips, and lost it on PCP at school. I helped with strong armed robbery, broke into cars and homes. I would hit my mom with anything I could grab a hold on, including an iron. I screwed up my families life. Me and my subconscious decisions.
I was just surviving. Not living, not feeling, just running. Away form what, whom??? Myself.
In the seed I felt a part of something different. Sure I hated the 10 - 10's. Hvaing to live with the feamle staff for a month, but guess what? I learned I hated myself. I didn't even know what real feelings were. I was an empty shell walking around this planet without a clue.
I became very close to many people, and believe it or not Susie Connors took me under her wing. I be able to go in the back office and sit there with her, just talking. She never talked down to me, she listened to me, and guided me.
To me, the seed is not a frickin cult. It was the only place in town where kids like me could go and learn something about myself, and have lifelong bonds of frienships. I have lost 17 old friends through overdose. I would be dead right along with them if my parents didn't make the choice to lift me up out of the streets and put me somewhere where I couldn't self-destruct anymore. I learned I had choices, and those choices I made would be good for me, or I would suffer the consequences. I am remaining anon because I can't stand drama, and I just don't choose to hear the rebuttles.
That's all from me, a former seedling who is still alive and very happy.
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anon wrote:
---------qutoe------
"To me, the seed is not a frickin cult. It was the only place in town where kids like me could go and learn something about myself, and have lifelong bonds of frienships. I have lost 17 old friends through overdose. I would be dead right along with them if my parents didn't make the choice to lift me up out of the streets and put me somewhere where I couldn't self-destruct anymore. I learned I had choices, and those choices I made would be good for me, or I would suffer the consequences. I am remaining anon because I can't stand drama, and I just don't choose to hear the rebuttles."
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Since you're choosing not to hear this, I suppose it's pointless..but: Ever wonder why you can't stand the drama (of someone disagreeing with you or questioning what you say) or why you choose not to hear the rebuttals? Doesn't real honesty mean the willingness and ability to question ourselves and entertain the possibility that we may be mistaken? The Seed demanded that we do this in regards to our pre-seed life. So why not apply the same principle to examining our conclusions, beliefs and assumptions about the Seed program itself and the effects it might have had upon us? BTW, I think I learned some good things at the Seed too and was able to use them to positive effect...especially after I was out of the program itself. But this in no way inhibits my willingness to attempt to honestly examine the program or it's methodology. I'm glad you have a good and happy life. Happy holidays to all.
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Anon Wrote:For myself, I listened to the raps, and low and behold, I started learning something about myself.
Really? Are you sure you didn't just learn what they wanted you to learn?
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Anon wrote: I screwed up my families life. Me and my subconscious decisions.
Wait now - let me get this straight - It's SUBCONSCIOUS when your past actions are hurting other people and you have begun to follow the seed teachings? Are you saying that none of the choices you made pre-seed were conscious choices? I find that really hard to believe. They may have been really bad choices - not well thought out choices, but by no means could your choice to smack your mom with an iron or participate in a strong-armed robbery have been subconscious choices. Those, my friend, were deliberate, conscious acts.
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ANON Wrote: I learned I hated myself. I didn't even know what real feelings were.
That's a pretty telling statement there. Look it over and reflect on it.
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I am remaining anon because I can't stand drama, and I just don't choose to hear the rebuttles.
Enough said. I won't waste anymore of my time -or yours. I am glad, though, that the program worked for you and made a difference in your life. It's great that someone took an interest in you, helped you learn to care about yourself and to care for those around you. What you got was more personal attention than most other people ever got, which in your case, may have been a good call on Ms. Connors' part. It's just too bad it could not have been that way for other kids.
My opinion of the program might be much different (and more like yours) if my experience was as personal and caring as you remember yours to be. We may disagree about the value of the seed, but then, well,you know what they say about opinions ...everybody has one. :wink:
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Good Lord, anon! Where have you been hiding yourself? You sound exactly like you just graduated yesterday. How does somebody maintain that level of total indoctrination over these many years? Is there like a secret Seed that's been going on and on for over thirty years now somewhere in the Tampa Bay area?
The public schools are...designed around the assumption that all of the participants are irresponsible and incompetent...The result is the creation of an organization which is incapable of change. Every member of the organization is concerned with keeping his superior happy.
--Christopher Jencks, Harvard
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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Welcome anon! Please choose a user name and stop being afraid of "drama and rebuttal". Those two things may lead you to a better understanding of just what exactly you were involved in.
Again, a cult isn't always a negative experience for every attendee. Just because it wasn't negative for you in no way furthers any argument that it wasn't a cult.
Welcome again.
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.
Although "Why we sing jingle bells" got a little old with me, most of my best memories of Christmas were at the Seed. I remember my first white christmas in Cleveland which truly was magical. I also had lots of nice palm tree christmas's as well. I hated christmas as a kid. I love everyone of them now. I'm getting ready to go to one of my fireman brothers homes for a extended family christmas. Lots and lots of little ones. I may even be more excited than some of my great neices and nephews.
All differences aside I wish all of you a magical holiday. ::dove:: [ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-12-22 05:15 ]
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I need to say this also.
I hated sports as an 18 yr old. I was never good at any, no one took the time to show me and get me past any bad habits or difficulties. I played on both teams. (probably sometimes for beig in the dog house or whatever)
I hit my first home run at age 25. I learned how to play football quite well. I really learned to love it( yes maybe wheather I liked it or not) I still really love it. I love volly ball. I'm a pretty damn good ping pong player(unfortunatly probably along with many mental hospital patients)
and I love tennis. (Actually my dad and grandfather were both really good tennis & ping pong players but before the seed I had never played with them :grin: ) Neither one were ever any mental institutions. lol :grin:
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See FL, you were a jock after all!
I do remember the look of joy on your face when you caught a pass. Now, I DID like ping-pong - we played it all day long at that one old apartment in N. Miami - had a terazzo floor and a fountain in the LR, grapefruit and orange trees in the yard...
Happy Holidays to all!
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Hey Anon,
I can see your point of view and agree with you in most of the aspects that you stated. In my case the Seed helped me immensely and in fact the Seed did what it said it would do and that was to get me off drugs. The Seed also showed me the origins and causes of my problems and that my drug use was just a symptom some other more deep rooted problems. Self understanding and awareness is what the Seed attempted to teach and for the most part it was learned and interpreted by each person differently.
On the site there are people that are diehard 100 % Seed loyalists than there are the diehard 100 % anti-Seeds who are convinced Seed had no good to offer and that the Seed left everlasting scars. Then there are people like myself in which I believe the Seed did much good but on the same hand the Seed had some imperfects.
I believe the Seed experience is up to each and ever person who experienced the program to be free to interpreted their experience as either positive or negative. I get such a kick from the people (Anti-Seed) that violently attack those who post those who have anything positive to say, insinuated that we have been so duped and can?t we see how the Seed was all part of some kind of interrelated government conspiracy to gain the control of the minds of middle America thru the manipulation of our adolescent years. Personally I find this mindset just as closed minded as the people who take the opposite stand. On the other hand this free exchange of ideas can encourage a more open examination of one?s experience.
I believe good or bad begin at the point of intent. What was the intent or the purpose of something? Was it to do good? I believe the Seed intentions were sound and good was the methodology always perfect? Personally after my 6 years at the Seed I never found any evidence of deliberate intent to destroy one?s life just the opposite I saw how people pulled together to help someone. What did hurt was the extremism of people?s actions in how people would profess their loyalty toward the Seed or how certain people almost deified Art. This allowed the group to take a life of its own and after a while the group became kind of inbred and sealed away from the so called real world creating for people an alternative reality. This is what I found so flawed and created my internal conflict which ultimately caused my leaving. In the end this bitter sweet experience served only to deepen my understanding. It?s all in the attitude and in the light in which we choose to see things in.
Through only my personal observations during my time spent at the Seed is how I base my opinions on my Seed experience.
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On 2005-12-22 07:56:00, jgar wrote:
I get such a kick from the people (Anti-Seed) that violently attack those who post those who have anything positive to say, insinuated that we have been so duped and can?t we see how the Seed was all part of some kind of interrelated government conspiracy to gain the control of the minds of middle America thru the manipulation of our adolescent years. Personally I find this mindset just as closed minded as the people who take the opposite stand. On the other hand this free exchange of ideas can encourage a more open examination of one?s experience.
. . .
I never found any evidence of deliberate intent to destroy one?s life just the opposite
. . .
Through only my personal observations during my time spent at the Seed is how I base my opinions on my Seed experience.
Right, well, I've never found any evidence of any deliberate attempt to destroy anyone either. What I have found through personal observation is some very well intended people falling prey to the ever present law of unintended consequences. All the good intentions in the world don't make right some of the things that went on routinely at the Seed.
As for the government involvement, well unless you have been in the loop on that level, you'd have to go outside of your own personal experience and read about it. It's there, clearly. Wes Fager has put together an astounding expose on the topic.
Just read. Bobby DuPont, as head of NIDA under Nixon did, indeed, make a formal recomendation to spread the Synanon method accross the country at public expense. He then did act on that intention when he granted over a million to the Seed. There's no denying that DFAF is Straight, Inc. after two name changes. And they make no secret of their mission to influence public policy and spending to further that same stated goal.
Here's a Google Search on "Drug Free America Act" which returns a couple of hundred references.
I didn't make this stuff up. I just checked to find out if my suspicions were founded or not. Sadly, they were. A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper. He must free himself from the habit, just as soon as something does not please him, of calling for the police.
Ludwig Von Mises
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Just for the record Art Barker despised Richard Nixon and always blamed Nixon?s plumbers for deliberately trying to shut down the Seed in it's early years. Some government agency (under order?s from the White house) conducted an audit at the Seed because of some public statement Art made endorsing Edwin Musky, during a failed run for the presidency. Because of this and because Art would have to relinquished control of the Seed into government hands I am convinced that Art would have never agreed to any of this.
In spite of what you may think (again I will say that I was not that close to Art during my years at the Seed) Art did believe in what he was doing was right and good. I say this not to negate your opinion but to say only what I observed. I was not present when this audit happened and perhaps someone who was there could shed some more light on this situation.
As per any type of study that might have been done (as has been stated before in this forum) has to be carefully scrutinized before any kind of validity can be given. As you well know things can be politically motivated and intent might not be true or pure. I have read or heard about studies that taken for the face value looked good but than carefully looking into the claims or conclusions the findings are just way off. This is why I always state that my opinions are based only through my years and experiences there. This is why I only give importance to opinions stated by the people who actually went thru the program.
[ This Message was edited by: jgar on 2005-12-22 09:11 ]
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jgar, while I don't agree with your position on the Seed I do agree with your approach in discussing the Seed. As I was attempting to point out on another thread the Seed experience in completely dependent on where a person was in there life. The more hooked on drugs ect... the more likely you were to be receptive to the program.
It also is dependent on the time period when you were in the program. I make my $$$ arguing with people but I can't argue with people who were part of the original Seed or who came in time periods after me. The experience was completely different because the Seed was completely different.
Please keep in mind that the person who argues the most against the Seed never spent a day in the program and has no logical point of reference to argue from.
Like you I only base my opinions on the Seed during the period I was in there, May '73-July'74, I was not there for footbal or softball, there were no social/athletic activities during my time period. Just 10-10's until you progressed in the program. When you graduated you were done. During my time period very few people went to old timer's raps after they graduated.
I also agree that most of the studies are probably worthless. I never meet a single person who was ever interviewed by a person conducting a so called study. In addition I don't need a study to tell me what did and did not happen while I was in there.
In terms of short and or long term "Benefit" from the Seed that also depends on the factors we have previously discussed. The people that were older, more mature and really wanted help getting off drugs probably did benefit in some ways. The people that did not want to be there and who were forced to be there probably did not derive any benefit's from the program. The Seeds claim of 90% success rate, which is what they were boasting during my time period, was a complete fabrication.
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Thank you for your kind words and I agree with your approach. I respect your view because you lived it and whether we agree or disagree is beside the point.Due to the fact you lived the Seed I must respect your opinion. Your experience was just as valid as mine.[ This Message was edited by: jgar on 2005-12-22 10:59 ]
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On 2005-12-22 09:08:00, jgar wrote:
"Just for the record Art Barker despised Richard Nixon and always blamed Nixon?s plumbers for deliberately trying to shut down the Seed in it's early years. Some government agency (under order?s from the White house) conducted an audit at the Seed because of some public statement Art made endorsing Edwin Musky, during a failed run for the presidency. Because of this and because Art would have to relinquished control of the Seed into government hands I am convinced that Art would have never agreed to any of this.
But he evidently didn't have a problem w/ accepting NIDA funding. Not saying it was Art's intent to play the stoodge for psyops. In fact, knowing him, I'd say he may well have had grand delusions about having it the other way around; where the government would go on handing him money and let him call all the shots.
In spite of what you may think (again I will say that I was not that close to Art during my years at the Seed) Art did believe in what he was doing was right and good.
Yes, I know. I've pretty much always believed that. But then, every human being down through history who ever deemed themselves a leader or a revolutionary thought the same thing. Did Che view himself as a bad guy? How about Capone?
I say this not to negate your opinion but to say only what I observed. I was not present when this audit happened and perhaps someone who was there could shed some more light on this situation.
As per any type of study that might have been done (as has been stated before in this forum) has to be carefully scrutinized before any kind of validity can be given.
Well, here would be not a bad place to start:
In 1971 the United States Senate's Judiciary Committee, Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights under the directorship of Senator Sam Ervin began an investigation of the US government's role in behavior modification. Ervin's 650 page report was published in November 1974 under the title "Individual Rights and the Federal Role in Behavior Modification." Other members of the subcommittee included: Senators John McClellan, Arkansas, Edward Kennedy, Massachusetts, Birch Bayh, Indiana, Robert Byrd, West Virginia, John Tunney, California, Edward Gurney, Florida, Roman Hruska, Nebraska, Hiram Fong, Hawaii, Strom Thurmond, South Carolina, and Lawrence Baskir, Chief Counsel, Dorothy Glancy, Counsel, Joseph Klutz, Research Assistant, Alfred Pollard, Research Assistant, and George Downs, Sr, Chief Printing Clerk, and Anita Kinlaw, a legal intern. The report includes a study of Straight's predecessor program, The Seed, and concludes that The Seed used methods similar to the "brainwashing" methods employed by North Koreans against American servicemen during the Korean War.
http://thestraights.com/reports/us_involvement.htm (http://thestraights.com/reports/us_involvement.htm)
As you well know things can be politically motivated and intent might not be true or pure.
Yeah, no shit! Like, for example, official statement as fact of the spurious myth of the Gateway Theory? Or of marijuana addiction? Or check this out:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/sout ... 522108.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/4522108.stm)
A woman dies of kidney failur, having tried GW Pharma's Sativex (which is, essentially, Cannabis tincture) some months prior. And the rabid drug warriors are trying to blame that clinical trial for her death? Never mind the diabetes, advanced age and other, far more likely culprits. No, there's a problem, see. Even the doctors and governments are starting to break ranks on the governments' hysterical position on cannabis. So this is their solution; demonize the competition.
I have read or heard about studies that taken for the face value looked good but than carefully looking into the claims or conclusions the findings are just way off.
Yeah, here's some debunking on that
http://www.ukcia.org/research/nahas.htm (http://www.ukcia.org/research/nahas.htm)
Al Robison is still around, still posting. If you'd like to get his take on these issues, you can contact him through Drug Policy Forum of Texas he'd probably answer your email. He became interested in the political aspects of drug war research when he was involved in government funded research to determine the toxicity of THC. His team's research concluded that there isn't any. You simply can't put enough THC into a lab rat to kill the bastard w/o that amount being attributable to overall dilution (in other words, so much that even if you had used water it would delute the blood to the point of overload)
Yes, indeed, figures don't lie but liars sure can figure. So far, the truth has been the first casualty in the Drug War. And, whether Art and Lybbi ever intended it or not, their very own lies have become fodder in that war.
This is why I always state that my opinions are based only through my years and experiences there. This is why I only give importance to opinions stated by the people who actually went thru the program.
Well, that's not the whole story. Sorry, it just isn't. If you want the whole story, you have to look elsewhere. If you don't want the whole story, that's fine too. But don't kid yourself. Closing your eyes doesn't really make the world go away.
I'm glad some people have that faith. I don't have that faith. If there is a God, a caring God, then we have to figure he's done an extraordinary job of making a very cruel world.
--Dave Matthews, South African rock musician
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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Hey Ginger I wish I had the time to reply to you but I have to go out cause I am leaving to NC for the next few days and will be incomunicado. Your post desires a response. Anyway I'll have to do it next week.
Have a good holiday and all the best to everyone
:wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:
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You too, have a pleasant trip.
"When did I realize it? Well, one day I was praying and suddenly realized I was talking to myself."
--God
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Marshall,
The reason I don't choose to hear the rebuttles is because from my experience here, if you are for the seed, there are certain people who choose to knock down what you just said. Sure everyone has an opinion, I just don't care about the "studies", the rhetoric from someone who wasn't even in the seed at the time I was. That was 33 yrs ago in my life. Yes, I have heard the seed changed, but when I was in there I never saw or heard any staff "attack" a seed kid, or a lot of what others experienced. I respect everyone who were in the seed at different times, and had their own realities in the seed. I am very sorry for people who have been damaged by the seed. That just wasn't my experience, nor was it for many of my fellow seedlings whom I was close to, which was many at our time. The seed was new in town in 1973. Yes, I read the articles the Times wrote about us being Korean style brainwashed. St.Pete Times is so far to the left, I don't read it. That is my choice. Honest critisism I can accept. But not personal attacks.
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Stripe,
Sure some of my bad choice were conscious choices. Yet let me explain me to you back in the days. As I said, I was walking on this planet as a shell of a human being. I felt NO feelings, because I chose to get high 24/7. I was numb from past experiences in my life which really screwed me up. I was full of rage. When I hit my mom with the iron, I didn't really see my mom, I saw red, and was totally out of control. Do you understand that? So full of rage that you don't see or even care about what is right in front of you. It is a very horrible and scary feeling. When I realized what I just did, I didn't even feel it was me. I had a monster inside of me that was rearing it's ugly head and I wasn't even aware of it. Sure I chose to drive the "get away car" in the robbery, and I wasn't even thinking of the consequences. Unfortunatly the other two got caught in the woods, and we took off. Good friend huh? While I was in the seed, I was given a great therapist whom I'd go see after I got out of school. There I had to go through every horrible experince I had been through in my past, and be healed of the pain. It took many yrs post seed too to get it all out, feel the feelings I felt at the time, and let go. I busted my butt to fight that monster in me, and I won.... The seed opened my eyes to a life I had never experienced before. And the sandwiches were horrible. ::boohoo::
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But.... didn't you just say Art was a Lefty? So then... does that mean he was as full of shit as the SPX? Or that SPX should be believed w/o question, just like Art?
When dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity ceases.
Robert Anton Wilson
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Yeah, yeah. Been there, done that, every stinkin' day for years, plus all the open meetings for a decade prior.
Do you think it's just possible that all that indoctrination may have influenced your memory of events prior to the Seed? What about the people who knew you before and who were not involved w/ the Seed. What do they say?May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house.
-- George Carlin
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I made conscious choices to be the way I was, but then got caught up in it, and felt pretty trapped.
I had the raging monster thing going on, and Crazy Johnny was a bit too close to home for me. THe Seed was a "time out" and a "do over" for some stuff, so as I said before, I came out better than I went in. I was forced to confront a few demons and work those things out.
I don't believe Art and Co started with the intent to form a cult, but I think it took on those aspects due to the lack of an alternative view. It does't make it any less real, but for some of us that aspect is more significant than for others. I went thru this a lot in my own mind in the days after I left, from anger to confusion, to self doubt and back again. I have come to accept my own feelings and my experience as a given, some positive and some negative - I survived and I'm normal now (I think).
We all measure our own experience on the same yardstick - positive vs negative. I myself was terrified of fucking up and being started over right up until the day I left.
After I wrecked my car I was right back to feeling pretty much trapped there (what happened to Barry B (right next to the impact I think), and the brothers from Newbern?). In theory I could leave at any time.
Happy holidays Merry Christmas and such
Johnny G
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On 2005-12-22 10:30:00, FueLaw wrote:
Please keep in mind that the person who argues the most against the Seed never spent a day in the program and has no logical point of reference to argue from.
Ok, please quit with the rediculous. That's like saying a Jew who grew up in Nazi Germany knows nothing of Hitler Jugund cause they never joined. Besides that, I was in Straight, which was The Seed under another name. Belive it or not, I was there, you weren't.
And I'm not the most stridently against the Seed, either. I know of people who refuse to believe good intent on the part of the core staff.
It has ever been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues
--Abraham Lincoln
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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On 2005-12-22 10:30:00, FueLaw wrote:
I never meet a single person who was ever interviewed by a person conducting a so called study.
How many people on the whole planet have gone through this same type of experience? In many respects, like it or not, we can reference the effects of thought reform (or reeducation) techniques used on American POWs in No. Korea and Vietnam. Do you know them all? Half? Half a dozen, even? Then there are all the research participants from places like Phoenix House, Delancy Street, the Matrix, prison experiments w/ the TC model. How many of those people do you know? Do you discard, out of hand, all scientific research unless you happen to know one of the participants?
I'm a PATRIOT because I believe in the nations ability to un-fuck itself.
--Nihilanthic