Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 06:01:21 PM

Title: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 06:01:21 PM
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that some of the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.  I have always been curious as to why just being honest and telling the truth isn’t sufficient enough.

In my opinion this just diminishes the credibility of the information being presented.  

If programs are truly abusive and posters here on fornits believe that then why lie?  Why not just write that you were abused in a program and explain what happened and by whom?  Why make up stories of being kidnapped and held in a prison, placed in isolation in a Gulag and brainwashed?  It is really easy to check the credibility of this.  I don’t think one amber alert resulted in the capture of a teenager being located at a program nor a link to a report of a child being kidnapped.  Yet we read on fornits that this occurs everyday.

So why the lies?  Just curious.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 06:06:47 PM
We would expect a person who had a difficult stay in a program to describe it like this:

The place was like a prison, I met a few friends and the counselors were nice for the most part but there was this one counselor who was downright abusive. I did learn a few things about myself and am grateful for that but overall I think it was a waste of time. I wish I could have spent more time working on my writing instead of the group therapies which were a waste of time. The food was okay, but I would never want to go back.

Why do we hear it this way?

I was kidnapped and held captive in a Gulag where I was abused 24/7. The place should be shut down. Every program is abusive and performs brainwashing on people. Not one child has ever benefited from a program. If they tell you this then they must be brainwashed themselves.

Is it done for attention?  If someday a child really does get abused in a program how are they going to convince anyone here on fornits.  Everyone is so desensitized to these words that they really dont hold any meaning.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 06:38:02 PM
To further explain my point (or question) if a person needs to call their program a Gulag and tell everyone they were kidnapped and brainwashed which we can agree are obvious exaggerations then how can we believe them when they say they were abused?  Where  can we differentiate between fact and fiction?  Where is the indication that abuse is not just part of the ongoing exaggeration?  Which part is true and which is false.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: none-ya on October 13, 2010, 08:19:36 PM
How many times has this all been explained toyou and you still don't get it? I just wish there was some way  to put it  where the light bulb would finally light up over your head. But I guess you're never gonna' wake up.
BOOOO!!!
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 13, 2010, 08:27:51 PM
Your question is loaded, Whooter.  A better question might be: "Do survivors lie and if so, when and where?"  Ya see. I can't really find many specific examples of that.  Usually when a survivor is accused of lying his/her story is later confirmed.  Sometimes in court.  Who would believe the things that happened at Straight Inc. were it not substantiated by many different people.  Who would believe Cheryl Sudweeks at Whitmore would throw kids down stairs... but it was confirmed by the GAO and in court.  Such bizarre and over the top things have happened that it's difficult to discount even the most outrageous stories.  In Western Samoa at Paradise Cove, a boy's puppy was thrown off a cliff to it's death by staff.  That was witnessed by multiple people.  The french maid thing at MBA?  I know that happened because we had a nearly identical skit at Benchmark.

I'm sure some survivor somewhere has lied.  I'm sure some survivors have toned down their stories to make them more believable (and less realistic). I'm sure the opposite is true as well but you'd be hard pressed to find any concrete examples.  I'm speaking in hypotheticals here.  All that being said it has been proven time and time again that programs and their representatives lie, or at the very least stretch the truth.  Not to be prejudiced here, but the trend does tend to lean towards survivors when it comes to the truth.  When there is a profit motive there is much more incentive to lie.  That's not to say profit is a bad thing. It's to say parents should be aware that these programs are businesses first and foremost, are subject to very little if any meaningful oversight, and are very difficult for the untrained (or even trained) eye to judge.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Samara on October 13, 2010, 08:44:50 PM
Another derail thread created solely to tarnish survivors. It's sad really.  Specifically when it originates from someone who takes great pride in pernicious perfidy. The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 09:18:44 PM
I guess I am not being very clear.  Maybe everyone is so use to the exaggerations that they seem like normal talk.  Take the GAO for instance.  We have all read the words of the parents and Sen Miller.  If you scan the documents you will find that they never found one instance of a child being kidnapped and held in a gulag.  I don’t recall any of the programs being cited for Brainwashing (unless I missed it).  But they did find kids to be abused in some of these facilities.

Why do we hear of all these kidnappings and Gulags, incarcerations and brainwashing here on fornits when the investigation could not find any sign of this?  Why do survivors here on fornits find a need to embellish their stories with these fantasies which do not exist in the real world?

If we read another story her on fornits that a person was kidnapped, taken to a Gulag where they were incarcerated, tortured and brainwashed what does that tell the reader?  Is it a plea for attention?  Or just added drama to try to communicate that the person didn’t want to go to that program?  I understand that many kids are dramatic and exaggerate, but what if a kid comes along that really was abused and loaded up his story with these fantasy words.  How could we differentiate between what is real and what isn’t?  How would we know that when he used the word abuse it wasn’t just another exaggeration for being forced to do his homework, like kidnapped may mean the child was taken to the program unwillingly.

@ Samara, glad to see you are true to form and stand on the sidelines and just criticize others and derail the post instead of trying to discuss the issue.  You didnt seem to have a problem when the subject was pro-program people lying.  Are you starting to see why I take the position I have with you?  I feel I have been justified in how I have perceived you.  Do you know why people on fornits use kidnapping, Gulag etc. to describe things and events where no one else does?
Do you think you would be taken seriously if you walked into the local police station and said "I just escaped from the local Gulag where I have been incarcerated, tortured and brainwashed for 12 months.  My kidnappers are still on the loose."  Would you blame them for taking you back to the school thinking you need more help by the way you were mixing fantasy with reality?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 13, 2010, 09:51:18 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
I guess I am not being very clear.  Maybe everyone is so use to the exaggerations that they seem like normal talk.  Take the GAO for instance.  We have all read the words of the parents and Sen Miller.  If you scan the documents you will find that they never found one instance of a child being kidnapped and held in a gulag.

It's a metaphor.  Come on, Whooter.  We've been through this before.  Kidnapping is depriving a person of liberty without due process.  A Gulag is a facility where such people are kept.  They're descriptive terms that happen to fit.  Gulags were also used to "re-educate"  and brainwash people, which is more or less the same function which these programs provide.  And as far as kidnapping goes, what escorts do is probably legally exactly that.  It's just that they're never prosecuted.

Quote
I don’t recall any of the programs being cited for Brainwashing.

Actually, Ken Stettler used that exact term in the GAO hearings to describe what programs do.  Sorry, Whooter, but whether you like it or not, that's what he said.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 13, 2010, 09:54:51 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
If we read another story her on fornits that a person was kidnapped, taken to a Gulag where they were incarcerated, tortured and brainwashed what does that tell the reader?  Is it a plea for attention?  Or just added drama to try to communicate that the person didn’t want to go to that program?  I understand that many kids are dramatic and exaggerate

They're not exaggerations.  They're descriptive statements of opinion.  I, personally, avoid such language because of how it sounds and how most people interpret it, but I understand why those who have had negative experiences in programs choose to do so.  Just because you disagree with a person's opinion doesn't mean that they're lying.  It just means that your perspectives differ.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: none-ya on October 13, 2010, 10:22:22 PM
If someone was dragged from their home in shackles in the middle of the night how could that not be described as kidnapping? Just 'cause it's a kid I guess. you could never get away with "transporting" an adult.
Not much of a lie or an exaggeration.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 10:23:37 PM
Quote from: "psy"
It's a metaphor.  Come on, Whooter.  We've been through this before.  Kidnapping is depriving a person of liberty without due process.  A Gulag is a facility where such people are kept.  They're descriptive terms that happen to fit.  Gulags in russia were also used to "re-educate" people, which is more or less the same function which these programs provide.

Kidnapping is illegal and if the person is caught they will spend time in jail.  The people who transport these children are not committing any crimes.  Gulags are in Russia as you mentioned used for re-education.  
Why not use the terms program or escort if the people are not trying to embellish their situation?  It communicates much easier to both fornits and non-fornits people.  Police officers can understand it better also.  I think if the kids were not trying to seek attention or exaggerate then they would use the correct terms.  That way if someone mentioned they were abused they may have some credibility.  Do you see what I mean?



Quote
Actually, Ken Stettler used that exact term in the GAO hearings to describe what programs do.  Sorry, Whooter, but whether you like it or not, that's what he said.

The issue isn't whether I like it or not. The issue is whether or not it is true.  He may have used the term.  But if they thought these places brainwashed kids then they would have been closed down that day.  Do you realize what real brain washing entails?  Even if a program tried to do this I couldnt possibly see how they could pull it off.
I was interested in this briefly when I was in highschool and I dont think the programs have an environment and personnel capable of achieving this level of thought control and re-education.  ( I am sure you can site an example, but I am talking about this happening today)

Maybe I am missing the point and brainwashing is being used as another metaphor.  This is what I mean, its confusing to figure out what is a metaphor and what is not.
If the same kid says that he was abused should we take that as a metaphor for something else, say being forced to study?

I think my point is that communication is all mucked up and its hard to tell what is real and what isnt.



...



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 10:29:26 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
If someone was dragged from their home in shackles in the middle of the night how could that not be described as kidnapping? Just 'cause it's a kid I guess. you could never get away with "transporting" an adult.
Not much of a lie or an exaggeration.

I can see the kid maybe thinking this at first.  But fairly quickly the child understands that it is an escort service.  they stop and get McDonalds, there is no ransom involved, no amber alert is initiated, and no one goes to jail for a crime.  I am sure the local law enforcement is aware of the activities.

If kidnapping did apply then these places would call themselves kidnapping services.

I think where many people may be getting confused is that is this was done to an adult then it would be considered kidnapping.  But the people would be put in jail for this because you need a persons consent.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 10:36:22 PM
Although it may appear that I set up this thread to bash people (survivors).  I really think this is an issue with credibility and if the language was brought more in line with everyday definitions then reports of abuse would be taken more seriously here on fornits and else where in my opinion.

By pointing this out I think changes would help the credibility of fornits.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 13, 2010, 10:51:37 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Another derail thread created solely to tarnish survivors. It's sad really.  Specifically when it originates from someone who takes great pride in pernicious perfidy. The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable.

According to who....?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 13, 2010, 10:56:54 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
If someone was dragged from their home in shackles in the middle of the night how could that not be described as kidnapping? Just 'cause it's a kid I guess. you could never get away with "transporting" an adult.
Not much of a lie or an exaggeration.

Because if the child was threatening and tormenting his family to the point of they were seriously scared for their safety, then it is not kidnapping.
Hey, try this 2 cops walk in his bedroom snatch his butt drag him to the squad car throw his ass in the car and cart him off to jail. Is that kidnapping. No it is called going to jail, well call this going to a program.
Ya know not every story is a picture you have in your head.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 13, 2010, 10:58:31 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"

  Do you know why people on fornits use kidnapping, Gulag etc. to describe things and events where no one else does?




...


Because we, unlike you, have all had the opportunity to examine at least one of these places up close and personally from the inside.  These places that you advocate for so tirelessly.  You say our accounts are "fantasies that do not exist in the real world", but that is wrong.  They do not exist TO the real world and that is what we want to change.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 14, 2010, 12:14:34 AM
John why dont you instead of just making vauge blanket accusations, provide a specific post of something you believe a survivor said that was either a lie or an exaggeration.

Your generalizations accomplish nothing.
Title: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Ursus on October 14, 2010, 01:44:08 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Deprogrammed on October 14, 2010, 05:04:12 AM
Whooter,
Find one post where you think I embellished and lied. Bring it on! Let's examine it.
-DP
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 07:01:13 AM
I dismiss the premise of this thread based on the OP's credibility problems.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

Statements like the one above make me dismiss this thread out of hand.  Now, if some credible poster wants to start a credible topic, I'd be glad to weigh in with my thoughts.  This thread is desperate attention-whoring and deflection from Whooter's really bad week that culminated in his confession that he made up his fake family which he does not have.  Where do you go from there, really?

"Survivors lying" hasn't been established by any credible person, so the rest of this thread is fluff.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 09:11:12 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"

I was kidnapped and held captive in a Gulag where I was abused 24/7. The place should be shut down. Every program is abusive and performs brainwashing on people. Not one child has ever benefited from a program. If they tell you this then they must be brainwashed themselves.

Citation please.  I don't recall seeing that post.  Who posted it?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 09:45:49 AM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"

I was kidnapped and held captive in a Gulag where I was abused 24/7. The place should be shut down. Every program is abusive and performs brainwashing on people. Not one child has ever benefited from a program. If they tell you this then they must be brainwashed themselves.

Citation please.  I don't recall seeing that post.  Who posted it?

Its an example of the language used here on fornits, Anne.  I am trying to make a point about the descriptive words used on fornits... i.e Gulag, Kidnapping,Brainwashing etc.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Dysfunction Junction on October 14, 2010, 09:49:14 AM
Correction, Anne, it's a bunch of BS made up by Whooter that was never posted here.  Another fabricated story from the congenital liar Whooter.
Title: Re: TheWho
Post by: Dysfunction Junction on October 14, 2010, 09:50:49 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

Quote from: "Froderik"
Fucking liar.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I admit that

Glad we got to the bottom of it.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 09:52:16 AM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.


I think yours is a good example, Ursus.  Imagine a kid writing or talking to an edcon or anyone after returning from a program.  The child says:

Response “A”
My time at XYZ Program was terrible.  The intake process was humiliating because I was required to disrobe and change into the schools uniforms in front of another staff member.  Most of the staff were nice but this one guy Robert Newly would scream at me and forced me to miss several meals.  He made me uncomfortable with some of his contacts which I felt were inappropriate. The school wasn’t bad overall and I managed to move ahead with my studies.  The food wasn’t great.......

Response “B”
After I was kidnapped and transported to the Gulag where I was incarcerated for 16 months I was systematically tortured and abused by the prison guards, starved and held in isolation.  I underwent extensive brainwashing and now have PTSD.

Response “A” would raise a concern and the person hearing this would call immediately to inquire about this Robert Newly and report the findings.  Response “A” was communicated well enough to be believed as credible.

Response “B” would be treated as a sarcastic immature response indicating that the child never bothered to apply themselves and still seeking attention.  I think we can agree that the abuse allegations would not be taken seriously for good reason.

I don’t think you should blame the Edcon for pooh-poohing the credibility of Responder “B”.  A big part of the reason some survivors are not believed is because of the way they communicate in my opinion.  I think listening to many posters speak here on fornits confirms that this language is used very often.  If survivors really were concerned about credibility they would address this issue or at least be open to the possibilities.



...
Title: Re: TheWho
Post by: Froderik on October 14, 2010, 09:53:41 AM
Quote from: "Dysfunction Junction"
Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

Quote from: "Froderik"
Fucking liar.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I admit that

Glad we got to the bottom of it.

 :roflmao:  :rofl:  :rocker:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Dysfunction Junction on October 14, 2010, 09:57:04 AM
I wonder if there are any documented instances of survivors creating fake families so they can share the fake family "program success" with potential marks?  I know this has happened with a program "parent" (not sure if Whooter really is a parent to any non"fabricated" children) here, but I have never heard anyone accusing a survivor of such blatant, self-serving lies used to push an agenda.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

Personally, I'd have to see something that rises to this level even to give this topic any thought.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 09:59:26 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"

I was kidnapped and held captive in a Gulag where I was abused 24/7. The place should be shut down. Every program is abusive and performs brainwashing on people. Not one child has ever benefited from a program. If they tell you this then they must be brainwashed themselves.

Citation please.  I don't recall seeing that post.  Who posted it?

Its an example of the language used here on fornits, Anne.  I am trying to make a point about the descriptive words used on fornits... i.e Gulag, Kidnapping,Brainwashing etc.



So, no such post exists.  Got it.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 14, 2010, 10:16:08 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.


I think yours is a good example, Ursus.  Imagine a kid writing or talking to an edcon or anyone after returning from a program.  The child says:

Response “A”
My time at XYZ Program was terrible.  The intake process was humiliating because I was required to disrobe and change into the schools uniforms in front of another staff member.  Most of the staff were nice but this one guy Robert Newly would scream at me and forced me to miss several meals.  He made me uncomfortable with some of his contacts which I felt were inappropriate. The school wasn’t bad overall and I managed to move ahead with my studies.  The food wasn’t great.......

Response “B”
After I was kidnapped and transported to the Gulag where I was incarcerated for 16 months I was systematically tortured and abused by the prison guards, starved and held in isolation.  I underwent extensive brainwashing and now have PTSD.

Response “A” would raise a concern and the person hearing this would call immediately to inquire about this Robert Newly and report the findings.  Response “A” was communicated well enough to be believed as credible.

Response “B” would be treated as a sarcastic immature response indicating that the child never bothered to apply themselves and still seeking attention.  I think we can agree that the abuse allegations would not be taken seriously for good reason.

I don’t think you should blame the Edcon for pooh-poohing the credibility of Responder “B”.  A big part of the reason some survivors are not believed is because of the way they communicate in my opinion.  I think listening to many posters speak here on fornits confirms that this language is used very often.  If survivors really were concerned about credibility they would address this issue or at least be open to the possibilities.



...


Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?
You have no basis for discounting our accounts except that they seem unlikely to you.  We do not care what seems unlikely to you because we all believe that you make your money off of these places and therefore have solid financial reasons for attempting to discredit us.  The whole LGAT treatment model is abusive.  In the program I was in, ALL of the staff was abusive, because that is what they were trained to be.  We were always hungry, always scared.  Only one way out, become one with those who are abusing me.  How is this different from brainwashing?
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 10:34:45 AM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"


Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?
You have no basis for discounting our accounts except that they seem unlikely to you.  We do not care what seems unlikely to you because we all believe that you make your money off of these places and therefore have solid financial reasons for attempting to discredit us.  The whole LGAT treatment model is abusive.  In the program I was in, ALL of the staff was abusive, because that is what they were trained to be.  We were always hungry, always scared.  Only one way out, become one with those who are abusing me.  How is this different from brainwashing?

If you speak to fellow survivors or, as Ursus pointed out to edcons or parents, survivor stories are tossed aside as not being very credible.  This isnt my fault (I know you would like to blame me).  I am trying to take a look at why survivor stories are not credible and as I pointed out I think it is at least partially due to the way people here communicate.  It comes across as exaggerated or fantasy of some sort.  

You really think a police officer is going to take you seriously when you speak of Gulags, kidnappings and brainwashing.  If a person were truly abused they would try their best to communicate this to the authorities not use fantasy mixed with reality.  The police can easily check to see if there have been any kids kidnapped recently and conclude you are lying. So why blame the edcons and police for not believing you?



...
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 10:42:51 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
If you speak to fellow survivors or, as Ursus pointed out to edcons or parents, survivor stories are tossed aside as not being very credible.  This isnt my fault (I know you would like to blame me).  I am trying to take a look at why survivor stories are not credible and as I pointed out I think it is at least partially due to the way people here communicate.  It comes across as exaggerated or fantasy of some sort.  

Only to those who have been conditioned by programs to respond to criticism of them the way you have.

Quote
You really think a police officer is going to take you seriously when you speak of Gulags, kidnappings and brainwashing.

Back when I was in?.....no.  Now?  Maybe.....and I think the cops are smart enough to understand that the people using those words are making....wait for it.....analogies and metaphors.


 
Quote
If a person were truly abused they would try their best to communicate this to the authorities not use fantasy mixed with reality.

It's not fantasy.  The description of gulags actually does closely mirror many of these so called "troubled teen" institutions.  You don't like that particular descriptor, but it's not that far off, unfortunately.


Quote
 The police can easily check to see if there have been any kids kidnapped recently and conclude you are lying. So why blame the edcons and police for not believing you?

Well, very often when a program moves into town they set up meetings with various local officials and condition even them to not believe the kids.  And the kids start off 'in the hole', so to speak, by being labeled "troubled" anyway.   So, again.....kids have zero recourse when they are being abused.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Froderik on October 14, 2010, 10:54:46 AM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

Well said.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 11:11:28 AM
Quote from: "Froderik"
Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

But if you are trying to communicate with people who have not been through one of these places then your vocabulary looks foolish.  Amongst yourselves it seems to work fine, but if you are looking for credibility from people who have never been in a program you need to use different words unless you want to be viewed as childish.



...
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 11:14:37 AM
Quote from: "Froderik"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

Well said.
:tup:
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 11:34:51 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Froderik"
Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

But if you are trying to communicate with people who have not been through one of these places then your vocabulary looks foolish.  Amongst yourselves it seems to work fine, but if you are looking for credibility from people who have never been in a program you need to use different words unless you want to be viewed as childish.


Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: shaggys on October 14, 2010, 12:15:10 PM
I use the term brainwashing to describe what happened to me at Straight inc because that is exactly what happened. I was forced to sit in a chair and stare straight ahead for 12 to 18 hours a day. Even moving my eyes away from the wall for a moment would invite harsh confrontation by staff/group. The only movement allowed was to turn your head to face the person speaking. The conversation in group all day long revolved around how awful we were as "druggies" and how only Straight inc could save us from ourselves. I was 15 and had only smoked a little pot and had a few beers in my whole life up to that point. I was taught that i would die, go insane or be locked in jail if I didn't fully commit myself to Straights' dogma. Every aspect of my life was completely controlled - eating, washing, sleeping, speaking, - everything. After month upon month of this I started believing what Straight was telling me. Eventually I believed EVERYTHING they told me.
It is my understanding that many programs today still use Straight-like methods on kids. It is brainwashing and I will continue to use that term to describe it.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 12:24:04 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.

But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  I have heard many here state that no one believes them when they tell their story and I am pointing out a huge reason why.  



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 12:38:20 PM
Quote from: "shaggys"
I use the term brainwashing to describe what happened to me at Straight inc because that is exactly what happened. I was forced to sit in a chair and stare straight ahead for 12 to 18 hours a day. Even moving my eyes away from the wall for a moment would invite harsh confrontation by staff/group. The only movement allowed was to turn your head to face the person speaking. The conversation in group all day long revolved around how awful we were as "druggies" and how only Straight inc could save us from ourselves. I was 15 and had only smoked a little pot and had a few beers in my whole life up to that point. I was taught that i would die, go insane or be locked in jail if I didn't fully commit myself to Straights' dogma. Every aspect of my life was completely controlled - eating, washing, sleeping, speaking, - everything. After month upon month of this I started believing what Straight was telling me. Eventually I believed EVERYTHING they told me.
It is my understanding that many programs today still use Straight-like methods on kids. It is brainwashing and I will continue to use that term to describe it.

Thanks, shaggys.  This is a horrific description.  I think we also have to bear in mind that because Whooter makes money from programs he has a vested interest in denying any abuse and portraying survivors as "liars."  But, as we all have recently learned, the only confirmed liar here is Whooter who recently admitted to making up a family and a family story of "program success."  I wouldn't worry about convincing this goon about anything because one, in the big picture he's absolutely, utterly meaningless to any of our lives and two, this entire thread is just his way to distract the conversation from his admitted and proven lies (all pro-program and anti-survivor, BTW).

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

Seriously, is anyone here really thinking we have to convince an abject liar like this guy about anything?  I sure don't.  The guy who made up his entire family, complete with fake kids, doesn't require any response about our own credibility.  "I fabricated a son."  For fuck's sake, this guy is not worth explaining anything to.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 12:50:23 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.

But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  

That wouldn't include "the likes of you", which is why I stated it the way I did.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 01:00:04 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.

But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  

That wouldn't include "the likes of you", which is why I stated it the way I did.

That does include me, also, yes.  Sometimes it is difficult to differentiate between the fantasy part of the post and the reality.  If the child wasnt really kidnapped then was he really abused?  Do you see what I mean?



...
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Ursus on October 14, 2010, 01:03:12 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.
But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  I have heard many here state that no one believes them when they tell their story and I am pointing out a huge reason why.
Personally, I don't think a whole lot of folk will EVER believe these stories no matter what language is used. Those people will only start waking up when they hear the stories from their peers, other parents, co-workers and other folk personally known, and/or the sheer magnitude of the phenomenon accumulated over time. Hearing opinions from savvy experts can't hurt either.

All in all, I don't think the choice in words makes a huge difference. Any group of people dealing with a subset of the human experience over a period of time develops their own vernacular. Most people realize that.

But... "clear communication" wasn't really your point in starting this thread, now was it? Your point was that "survivors need to lie." This whole discussion 'bout "word usage" sounds like yet another of your obfuscating smokescreens.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 01:04:25 PM
Was he really a parent?  Did he really have a kid?  These are good questions that are answered by

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son
Quote from: "Whooter"
I admit that

When trying to differentiate between fact and fantasy, the first thing we need to do is remove the obvious fantasy from the equation, that is, we dismiss everything Whooter has to say on the subject because he made up a family and kids that he never had.  Then we can have a real discussion with real, not "fabricated," people.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 01:07:51 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.
But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  I have heard many here state that no one believes them when they tell their story and I am pointing out a huge reason why.
Personally, I don't think a whole lot of folk will EVER believe these stories no matter what language is used. Those people will only start waking up when they hear the stories from their peers, other parents, co-workers and other folk personally known, and/or the sheer magnitude of the phenomenon accumulated over time. Hearing opinions from savvy experts can't hurt either.

All in all, I don't think the choice in words makes a huge difference. Any group of people dealing with a subset of the human experience over a period of time develops their own vernacular. Most people realize that.

But... "clear communication" wasn't really your point in starting this thread, now was it? Your point was that "survivors need to lie." This whole discussion 'bout "word usage" sounds like yet another of your obfuscating smokescreens.


BINGO!

 :notworthy:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 01:17:58 PM
Quote from: "shaggys"
I use the term brainwashing to describe what happened to me at Straight inc because that is exactly what happened. I was forced to sit in a chair and stare straight ahead for 12 to 18 hours a day. Even moving my eyes away from the wall for a moment would invite harsh confrontation by staff/group. The only movement allowed was to turn your head to face the person speaking. The conversation in group all day long revolved around how awful we were as "druggies" and how only Straight inc could save us from ourselves. I was 15 and had only smoked a little pot and had a few beers in my whole life up to that point. I was taught that i would die, go insane or be locked in jail if I didn't fully commit myself to Straights' dogma. Every aspect of my life was completely controlled - eating, washing, sleeping, speaking, - everything. After month upon month of this I started believing what Straight was telling me. Eventually I believed EVERYTHING they told me.
It is my understanding that many programs today still use Straight-like methods on kids. It is brainwashing and I will continue to use that term to describe it.

That’s an awful experience, Shaggys.  I have heard similar stories from other people from straight here also.  Not sure it classifies as brainwashing but I would guess it is pretty dam close.  But, to me, your story is believable because you took the time to explain the details of the abuse that took place and the name of the program.  If you had said you were kidnapped, held in a Gulag and brainwashed by prison guards I may not feel the same way about the credibility of your post.

As far as similarities to other programs, I have heard the same thing from posters like Anne Bonney.  My response is that you will always see similarities between programs because they are buildings that have lots of teenagers in them who are at-risk (or thought to be at-risk).  If someone told you a staff member  at their program made them sit in a chair and stare at the wall because they broke a minor infraction.  This would be similar to your experience at straight, but it may not be abusive.  The kids punishment may be short, (not 18 hours ).

So seeing similarities doesn’t mean the programs are the same or are abusive.  I know first hand that several programs do not do this.  But the brainwash term may apply in your case.  I couldnt imagine having to endure something like that and I am sorry you had to go through it at such a young age.



...
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 01:58:26 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Personally, I don't think a whole lot of folk will EVER believe these stories no matter what language is used. Those people will only start waking up when they hear the stories from their peers, other parents, co-workers and other folk personally known, and/or the sheer magnitude of the phenomenon accumulated over time. Hearing opinions from savvy experts can't hurt either.

I agree that there will always be people who will be closed minded and just refuse to listen.  But a big step in getting people to listen is to try and make your story as credible as possible.  Once you start talking about kidnappings and Gulags a lot of people will sense the story is a bit of a fantasy.  But if you look at how Shaggys explained his/her time in straight it seemed very credible to me, even with the inference of the brainwashing.

Quote
All in all, I don't think the choice in words makes a huge difference. Any group of people dealing with a subset of the human experience over a period of time develops their own vernacular. Most people realize that.
So this subset language is intended to be used between one another i.e.  survivor to survivor.  When the people involved in the GAO investigation were discussing the problems with these various programs they did not use kidnapping, Gulag, prison guards etc.  They used language which would present itself as the most credible in communicating these places and the events that occurred (because that is their job).  Why didnt they use the language that fornits uses?  I think the answer is that it would not be factual.


Quote
But... "clear communication" wasn't really your point in starting this thread, now was it? Your point was that "survivors need to lie." This whole discussion 'bout "word usage" sounds like yet another of your obfuscating smokescreens.
Clear communication was not my original point, you are right, we have drifted from the initial intent but I think it has been a good conversation to this point.  Covering the” language” was a natural progression of the topic discussion.  So I dont view it as a derailment or veering off topic.

So to Urus’s point if many of the survivors know that people who have never been inside a program do not speak this way (or use these words) then why do they embellish the language to make it appear that they were victims of kidnapping and brainwashing, torture etc.?  Why not tell it like it is like Shaggys demonstrated and lay out the facts?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 02:37:35 PM
Quote from: "The gatekeeper"
In case there was confusion:  Keep the title of the thread to "Why do Survivors need to Lie?" and speak your mind.



They don't.  The reality of what's done to them/us is bad enough.  Whooter started this thread with the sole intention of making it appear that survivors routinely lie about being abused.  We don't.  Let it die the death that is Danny's "authentic self" thread.  He's talking to himself, which is what Whooter should be doing here by starting off a thread with such a loaded question.

 :feedtrolls:  :fuckoff:
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 02:48:12 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

Well, then keep reading, because I am a program survivor and I have been listening to people like yourself whore for attention for over 30 years.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 02:52:27 PM
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
I dismiss the premise of this thread based on the OP's credibility problems.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

Statements like the one above make me dismiss this thread out of hand.  Now, if some credible poster wants to start a credible topic, I'd be glad to weigh in with my thoughts.  This thread is desperate attention-whoring and deflection from Whooter's really bad week that culminated in his confession that he made up his fake family which he does not have.  Where do you go from there, really?

"Survivors lying" hasn't been established by any credible person, so the rest of this thread is fluff.

Well you can dismiss anything you like, you have a room full of zealots on your side but what you can't take away is my experience first hand. I have been listening to freaks like you for 30 years, you never get any better. If anyone is a attention whore or creative at deflecting issues away, well come on my friend, you win the "award".
Title: Recycle Bin
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 02:54:56 PM
Quote from: "Froderik"
Fucking liar.

Gee, I wonder if this is acceptable. Everyone has lied.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 02:55:23 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "The gatekeeper"
In case there was confusion:  Keep the title of the thread to "Why do Survivors need to Lie?" and speak your mind.



They don't.  The reality of what's done to them/us is bad enough.  Whooter started this thread with the sole intention of making it appear that survivors routinely lie about being abused.  We don't.  Let it die the death that is Danny's "authentic self" thread.  He's talking to himself, which is what Whooter should be doing here by starting off a thread with such a loaded question.

 :feedtrolls:  :fuckoff:

Anne, why are you trying to invalidate the thread by assuming you know my intentions?  Every group has people who lie.  I dont think I could name one that doesnt.  But not everyone within the group lies.  Shaggy demonstrated that he could show us he/she was abused at Straight without having to resort to exaggerations or lying. Do you think you could communicate your time at straight and what happened to you without exaggerating?  Do you think you could address a panel of senators and explain what happened to you without embellishing the facts for drama effect?

What is the advantage of someone saying they were kidnapped when everyone knows they were taken to the program via an escort service?  Does this gain sympathy?  add drama?  gain more attention?  To fit in better at fornits?  Would police or the GAO use this description?  

Do you see what I am saying?  I am not saying all survivors lie but trying to understand why many survivors try to trick us into believing they were kidnapped or brainwashed or tortured etc..



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 02:57:59 PM
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Whooter"
But a big step in getting people to listen is to try and make your story as credible as possible.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

 ::)

Sorry, folks, but I won't be lectured to about "lying" by this guy.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 02:58:39 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.


I think yours is a good example, Ursus.  Imagine a kid writing or talking to an edcon or anyone after returning from a program.  The child says:

Response “A”
My time at XYZ Program was terrible.  The intake process was humiliating because I was required to disrobe and change into the schools uniforms in front of another staff member.  Most of the staff were nice but this one guy Robert Newly would scream at me and forced me to miss several meals.  He made me uncomfortable with some of his contacts which I felt were inappropriate. The school wasn’t bad overall and I managed to move ahead with my studies.  The food wasn’t great.......

Response “B”
After I was kidnapped and transported to the Gulag where I was incarcerated for 16 months I was systematically tortured and abused by the prison guards, starved and held in isolation.  I underwent extensive brainwashing and now have PTSD.

Response “A” would raise a concern and the person hearing this would call immediately to inquire about this Robert Newly and report the findings.  Response “A” was communicated well enough to be believed as credible.

Response “B” would be treated as a sarcastic immature response indicating that the child never bothered to apply themselves and still seeking attention.  I think we can agree that the abuse allegations would not be taken seriously for good reason.

I don’t think you should blame the Edcon for pooh-poohing the credibility of Responder “B”.  A big part of the reason some survivors are not believed is because of the way they communicate in my opinion.  I think listening to many posters speak here on fornits confirms that this language is used very often.  If survivors really were concerned about credibility they would address this issue or at least be open to the possibilities.



...


Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?
You have no basis for discounting our accounts except that they seem unlikely to you.  We do not care what seems unlikely to you because we all believe that you make your money off of these places and therefore have solid financial reasons for attempting to discredit us.  The whole LGAT treatment model is abusive.  In the program I was in, ALL of the staff was abusive, because that is what they were trained to be.  We were always hungry, always scared.  Only one way out, become one with those who are abusing me.  How is this different from brainwashing?

No, all of you have not even come close to going through a gulag, please. Elan 4 was the closet to a actual prison within a treatment center setting and not one of you were there.
So please take your embellishments and reconsider what it is you are trying to say.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 03:05:04 PM
OK, well we got one example now.  DannyB II is a survivor and a liar.  That's one.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 03:08:15 PM
Quote from: "shaggys"
I use the term brainwashing to describe what happened to me at Straight inc because that is exactly what happened. I was forced to sit in a chair and stare straight ahead for 12 to 18 hours a day. Even moving my eyes away from the wall for a moment would invite harsh confrontation by staff/group. The only movement allowed was to turn your head to face the person speaking. The conversation in group all day long revolved around how awful we were as "druggies" and how only Straight inc could save us from ourselves. I was 15 and had only smoked a little pot and had a few beers in my whole life up to that point. I was taught that i would die, go insane or be locked in jail if I didn't fully commit myself to Straights' dogma. Every aspect of my life was completely controlled - eating, washing, sleeping, speaking, - everything. After month upon month of this I started believing what Straight was telling me. Eventually I believed EVERYTHING they told me.
It is my understanding that many programs today still use Straight-like methods on kids. It is brainwashing and I will continue to use that term to describe it.

This story right here is a embellishment, of course you will move your eyes, every group you were in was not always about you and the focus was not always on drugs.
Listen in case you did not know, it is not Straights fault you only smoked one joint, drank one beer, kissed one girl and stayed out late one night. Some one gave Straight the impression you were a screw-up so you were placed there. Now if you want to blame Straight for the type of treatment you received, fine but take up why you were placed there with the proper folks.
I didn't believe everything Elan told me, I didn't buy into there concepts of treatment and I wasn't brainwashed.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 03:12:54 PM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "shaggys"
I use the term brainwashing to describe what happened to me at Straight inc because that is exactly what happened. I was forced to sit in a chair and stare straight ahead for 12 to 18 hours a day. Even moving my eyes away from the wall for a moment would invite harsh confrontation by staff/group. The only movement allowed was to turn your head to face the person speaking. The conversation in group all day long revolved around how awful we were as "druggies" and how only Straight inc could save us from ourselves. I was 15 and had only smoked a little pot and had a few beers in my whole life up to that point. I was taught that i would die, go insane or be locked in jail if I didn't fully commit myself to Straights' dogma. Every aspect of my life was completely controlled - eating, washing, sleeping, speaking, - everything. After month upon month of this I started believing what Straight was telling me. Eventually I believed EVERYTHING they told me.
It is my understanding that many programs today still use Straight-like methods on kids. It is brainwashing and I will continue to use that term to describe it.

This story right here is a embellishment, of course you will move your eyes, every group you were in was not always about you and the focus was not always on drugs.
Listen in case you did not know, it is not Straights fault you only smoked one joint, drank one beer, kissed one girl and stayed out late one night. Some one gave Straight the impression you were a screw-up so you were placed there. Now if you want to blame Straight for the type of treatment you received, fine but take up why you were placed there with the proper folks.
I didn't believe everything Elan told me, I didn't buy into there concepts of treatment and I wasn't brainwashed.


I was there and would state under oath that what Shaggy's posted is EXACTLY what I experienced when I was in Straight.  I don't give a flying fuck what DannyBoi or Whooter think or how much they froth at the mouth.

Like I said DannyBoi......go back to talking to yourself.  I actually do get a kick out of your trying to start salient threads, only to be ignored.  :rofl:  Then you go back and talk to yourself.......as it should be.  :twofinger:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 03:13:23 PM
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Whooter"
But a big step in getting people to listen is to try and make your story as credible as possible.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

 ::)

Sorry, folks, but I won't be lectured to about "lying" by this guy.

Watchful Yeoman,  I dont expect everyone to agree with my point of view.  I have never spent time in a program myself so I am far from an expert in this area.  Instead of taking shots at everyone and getting mad why dont you give your opinion and join the conversation?  I would be interested to know your take on the subject.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 03:16:10 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
I have never spent time in a program myself  


So you really have nothing to add to the discussion and just enjoy starting threads with loaded quesstions.  Gotcha.  


Until you have some experience being on the inside of one of these shitpits, we'll chalk your opinions up to being what they are.  Marketing damage control.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 03:17:57 PM
My take on the subject is that nobody should bother answering you, of all people, about lying.  Nobody here should be lectured by a liar such as yourself about lying.

You've never been in a program, we know that.  You never had a son at Second Nature, we know that, too.  But you have lied about both, posing a program kid and "fabricating" a child you never had.  Why the hell should anyone humor you about lying?
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 03:18:21 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.
But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  I have heard many here state that no one believes them when they tell their story and I am pointing out a huge reason why.
Personally, I don't think a whole lot of folk will EVER believe these stories no matter what language is used. Those people will only start waking up when they hear the stories from their peers, other parents, co-workers and other folk personally known, and/or the sheer magnitude of the phenomenon accumulated over time. Hearing opinions from savvy experts can't hurt either.

All in all, I don't think the choice in words makes a huge difference. Any group of people dealing with a subset of the human experience over a period of time develops their own vernacular. Most people realize that.

But... "clear communication" wasn't really your point in starting this thread, now was it? Your point was that "survivors need to lie." This whole discussion 'bout "word usage" sounds like yet another of your obfuscating smokescreens.

They won't believe them Ursus because most people can not relate (no experience) and the extreme vernacular used here is hard to grasp. What peers are you talking about, this isn't what I would consider mainstream folks.  :D  
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 03:20:51 PM
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Whooter"
But a big step in getting people to listen is to try and make your story as credible as possible.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

 ::)

Sorry, folks, but I won't be lectured to about "lying" by this guy.

My friend you are not above this conversation by a long shot.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 03:21:03 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


I was there and would state under oath that what Shaggy's posted is EXACTLY what I experienced when I was in Straight.  I don't give a flying fuck what DannyBoi or Whooter think or how much they froth at the mouth.

Anne if you read my response to Shaggys post you would have seen that I thought it was very credible.  I didnt need to see his hand on the bible to sway my opinion.  Sometimes the way a person presents themselves and the language they use can assist in adding credibility to their story.  Some people come across as credible because of the words they chose and a sincerity in their approach.

This plays in to what confuses me.  When faced with an opportunity to be honest and just tell the truth some people will embellish and use words for the purpose of fooling someone into believing something that didnt happen.  If the truth (in itself) is bad in its own accord then why embellish it and risk being viewed as a liar?  Do you see what I mean?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 03:23:18 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
When faced with an opportunity to be honest and just tell the truth some people will embellish and use words for the purpose of fooling someone into believing something that didnt happen.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

I only see Whooter doing this.  I have yet to see a single example of a survivor doing this.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 03:26:32 PM
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Whooter"
When faced with an opportunity to be honest and just tell the truth some people will embellish and use words for the purpose of fooling someone into believing something that didnt happen.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

I only see Whooter doing this.  I have yet to see a single example of a survivor doing this.

Maybe Whooter can explain to the rest of us why he has done this repeatedly since 2005.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 03:41:46 PM
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
My take on the subject is that nobody should bother answering you, of all people, about lying.  Nobody here should be lectured by a liar such as yourself about lying.

You've never been in a program, we know that.  You never had a son at Second Nature, we know that, too.  But you have lied about both, posing a program kid and "fabricating" a child you never had.  Why the hell should anyone humor you about lying?

and you have lied continuously about your interpretation of what Whooter said. You have no proof of intention so you make one up to explain your prejudice.
Listen you can't really believe anyone with any sense is taking you seriously, Anne is a clerk of all things, come on. So she can spell and write a sentence or two but as far as credibility, please. She has proven herself to be a loon.
Outside of your 6 or 7 folks everyone else thinks your a joke. This whole Whooter show, has been played a dozen times, your show is no different.
Folks come and read, see the bullshit about Whooter as they have seen for years now and they get turned off and move on. One thing they do notice is DJ has changed his name, one more time. So you keep up the legacy of sock puppetry here on fornits.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 03:42:14 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


I was there and would state under oath that what Shaggy's posted is EXACTLY what I experienced when I was in Straight.  I don't give a flying fuck what DannyBoi or Whooter think or how much they froth at the mouth.

Anne if you read my response to Shaggys post you would have seen that I thought it was very credible.  I didnt need to see his hand on the bible to sway my opinion.  Sometimes the way a person presents themselves and the language they use can assist in adding credibility to their story.  Some people come across as credible because of the words they chose and a sincerity in their approach.

My response was to DannyBoi saying that it was an embellishment.

Quote
This plays in to what confuses me.  When faced with an opportunity to be honest and just tell the truth some people will embellish and use words for the purpose of fooling someone into believing something that didnt happen.  If the truth (in itself) is bad in its own accord then why embellish it and risk being viewed as a liar?  Do you see what I mean?

They don't embellish, that's your opinion of it.  There's no need to embellish it when the actual truth is quite bad enough.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: shaggys on October 14, 2010, 03:49:55 PM
I wouldn't have a reason to lie about any of what I saw and went through personally at Straight inc. The truth is more than enough. I have a son who is the same age now that I was when I went into the program. Sometimes I look at him and I think about how I must have looked at that age, sitting in that miserable group. Thats the part that makes you just wanna break down and cry about the whole thing. I can't do that shit though. I have a life with people depending on me so I gotta maintain.
We sat in group and we stared straight ahead. On the wall directly in front of the group were the 7 steps. The only reading allowed.
If you moved your eyes to glance to the side or worse yet, maybe you ever so slightly turned your head then the person sitting behind you was expected to immediately put their index finger into the side of your head just above the ear and drag that finger along the side of your scalp until it ended up by your eye. Go ahead, try it at home and see how it feels. This is just one of the bizarre little abuse rituals that were part of everyday life in that program.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 03:55:04 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

They don't embellish, that's your opinion of it.  There's no need to embellish it when the actual truth is quite bad enough.

That is my point if they were escorted by an escort service why not just say that?  If that in itself is bad enough why embellish it to say you were kidnapped?  Are there any reports which support that these kids were kidnapped and amber alerts were put out on them?  Are there any trials in progress or concluded?

Do you see what I mean?  It might have "felt" like they were kidnapped, (that I can understand) but in reality they were not. There is just no evidence to support this that I have seen to date.   Unless this can be supported somehow this is more than just my opinion.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 14, 2010, 05:47:05 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

They don't embellish, that's your opinion of it.  There's no need to embellish it when the actual truth is quite bad enough.

That is my point if they were escorted by an escort service why not just say that?  If that in itself is bad enough why embellish it to say you were kidnapped?  Are there any reports which support that these kids were kidnapped and amber alerts were put out on them?  Are there any trials in progress or concluded?

Do you see what I mean?  It might have "felt" like they were kidnapped, (that I can understand) but in reality they were not. There is just no evidence to support this that I have seen to date.   Unless this can be supported somehow this is more than just my opinion.



...

Unfortunately, the people who would ordinarily initiate the amber alert are the ones who called the kidnappers.  Oh, sorry Whooter, the armed goons who don't work for any law enforcement agency who burst into teenagers rooms in the middle of the night to handcuff them and take them into captivity.  Doesn't sound nearly as friendly as "escort service", does it?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 05:51:48 PM
Lets say a new acquaintance and yourself were out and about and you noticed a large scar on your friends side and asked him what that was from and he responded:  
“When I was in Iraq I was shot by a Taliban terrorist and was left to die as I laid there bleeding out.  I almost died until luckily help came and they got me to a hospital.  I am lucky to be alive”.

Wow, that would be a story!  Then a few months later you are visiting with his family and his brother says to you:  
“Hey has Jim showed you his scar yet?”  
and you say:  
“Yeah, that’s awful what the Taliban did to him, I feel so bad for him and all the trauma he must have gone through.  I am so proud of him and how he has worked though all that truama”.  

His brother says:  
“Taliban? What are you talking about?  I shot him by accident in a hunting accident 2 years ago and then wrapped his wound and ran off to get help for him.  Jim, what did you tell her?”.  

Then Jim explains that he really didn’t lie to you because it felt like the same thing.  He felt like he was left to die after his brother ran off for help and if he were shot by the Taliban it wouldn’t hurt any less.  So in essence it was the same thing according to Jim.

Would everyone trust this guys word after this?  Would you believe any of his stories in the future?  Why did he tell the Taliban story instead of just saying he was shot by his brother?  Would you just accept Jim saying:

“It’s the same pain level whether it was the Taliban or my brother so what’s the big deal?  To me it felt like a terrorist attack”



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 06:12:41 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"

Unfortunately, the people who would ordinarily initiate the amber alert are the ones who called the kidnappers.  Oh, sorry Whooter, the armed goons who don't work for any law enforcement agency who burst into teenagers rooms in the middle of the night to handcuff them and take them into captivity.  Doesn't sound nearly as friendly as "escort service", does it?

So why dont people just come out and say it, ShadyAcres?  
"Escort Service sounds too friendly and I like to embellish it up a bit to try to describe how it really felt, just like Jim did with his gun shot wound."

Why not tell the truth and say escort service and then go on to describe how harsh the process was and how you were handcuffed and tossed into a car?  Why lie and try to fool people into believing that you were actually kidnapped?  Eventually they will find out that you were not kidnapped and then your credibility will be jeopardized.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: none-ya on October 14, 2010, 07:26:45 PM
It's kidnapping when there is (and I believe psy addressed this) no due process for the minor. No lawyer. No phone call. No miranda. No rights at all. I don't know about in other states,  But a minor here, has none of these rights even when arrested by the police. No bail  Nothing.It's  like saying the repo man isn't a professional car thief. It's legal. The police should be handling these jobs. Or at least someone with more accountability. than these weekend worriors and wanna' be's. If it walks like a duck......
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 07:53:18 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
It's kidnapping when there is (and I believe psy addressed this) no due process for the minor. No lawyer. No phone call. No miranda. No rights at all. I don't know about in other states,  But a minor here, has none of these rights even when arrested by the police. No bail  Nothing.It's  like saying the repo man isn't a professional car thief. It's legal. The police should be handling these jobs. Or at least someone with more accountability. than these weekend worriors and wanna' be's. If it walks like a duck......

I never read this, do you have a link of any type?  So if the child is forced to get in the car and go visit their grandmother it is considered Kidnapping?  If the parents force the child onto the school bus it would be kidnapping?  I dont think so, the courts would be overwhelmed.  The escort service has the parents sign over the right to transport the child to his/her destination.  So legally the escort service can take the child across state lines.  Correct me if I am wrong but I dont think the child has any rights on this until they reach age 18.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Froderik on October 14, 2010, 08:23:44 PM
"I always lie...and I'm always right!"
-J.R. "Bob" Dobbs
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: none-ya on October 14, 2010, 08:42:17 PM
If the minor is not under arrest, then why can't he just say no! I ain't goin'. Because he has no rights to start with. If he dosen't go with the transporter, or won't get on the school bus, the the parents should call the cops.By the time it got to court, maybe he could get a lawyer or some sort of advocate.  to represent his(or her) wishes. problem is, kids don't have money. Nobody is lining up to represent children. It ain't safe to be a kid anywhere, anymore. And until things change. they'll just keep lining up (for a fee) to take the kids away. = LEGAL KIDNAPPING!
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 09:22:44 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Another derail thread created solely to tarnish survivors. It's sad really.  Specifically when it originates from someone who takes great pride in pernicious perfidy. The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable.

Jeesh, Samara, why have we not heard you complain like this when posts were being written about others. I hate to tell you but you folks are not above lying and down right manipulative reactions.

Your quote:
"The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable".

My quote:
How about this characterization, just basic garden variety folks. See, not all the drama.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 09:33:22 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
It's kidnapping when there is (and I believe psy addressed this) no due process for the minor. No lawyer. No phone call. No miranda. No rights at all. I don't know about in other states,  But a minor here, has none of these rights even when arrested by the police. No bail  Nothing.It's  like saying the repo man isn't a professional car thief. It's legal. The police should be handling these jobs. Or at least someone with more accountability. than these weekend worriors and wanna' be's. If it walks like a duck......

So if the judicial system says it is not kidnapping, why are you calling it kidnapping. If escort services are legal why are you saying there not.
So because Psy says it is kidnapping because there is no due process, no lawyer, no phone call, no miranda, that means it is kidnapping. Is this what you are telling us. OK. One problem though the judicial system doesn't think the same way Psy does.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 09:43:29 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Froderik"
Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

But if you are trying to communicate with people who have not been through one of these places then your vocabulary looks foolish.  Amongst yourselves it seems to work fine, but if you are looking for credibility from people who have never been in a program you need to use different words unless you want to be viewed as childish.


Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.

Whoa, wait a second, come on waaaaait......you are not believed by many folks here. Look around when you start talking people scatter. This board becomes a ghost town, you push people away.
The only folks I read are sock puppets from DJ and Frodo's negative one liners.
Title: Kidnapping
Post by: none-ya on October 14, 2010, 09:47:25 PM
Look, if you would rather not argue semantics or verbage, Does "taken by force against one's will" While not being placed under arrest.  serves the same meaning. Just kinda' rolls off the tounge huh?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 09:54:55 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
If the minor is not under arrest, then why can't he just say no! I ain't goin'. Because he has no rights to start with. If he dosen't go with the transporter, or won't get on the school bus, the the parents should call the cops.By the time it got to court, maybe he could get a lawyer or some sort of advocate.  to represent his(or her) wishes. problem is, kids don't have money. Nobody is lining up to represent children. It ain't safe to be a kid anywhere, anymore. And until things change. they'll just keep lining up (for a fee) to take the kids away. = LEGAL KIDNAPPING!

I guess the survivor would not be lying if there was a term "Legal Kidnapping" but I have never heard of this.  I understand what you are saying, none-ya, but I think the term "escort Service" would be the more accurate description.  



...
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 09:58:25 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

Really is Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry not count, Ursus. Yes, it has been established in the debates on this Web Site and the dozens upon dozens of other sites. All the interested reader has to do is read the various opinions on the sites. Most of the opinions are from kids that went through the programs.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: none-ya on October 14, 2010, 10:09:44 PM
Quote
Whooter wrote;
"Why make up stories of being kidnapped"


Hey keeper, his question came from the original post. And Iv'e been answering ever since. Kidnapping is not lying. I just posted this a minute ago and you saw fit to remove it? what gives? Maybe we have a problem, But im still on point.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 14, 2010, 11:08:31 PM
Whooter are you ever going to be able back up your claims? Honestly John just provide a single post that backs up your nonsense about abuse survivors lying. Just one.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Ursus on October 14, 2010, 11:27:51 PM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.
Really is Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry not count, Ursus. Yes, it has been established in the debates on this Web Site and the dozens upon dozens of other sites. All the interested reader has to do is read the various opinions on the sites. Most of the opinions are from kids that went through the programs.
What are you trying to say, Danny? Are you trying to say: that because the allegedly offending vernacular is used not only on fornits, but also on "Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry" ...  that this is further proof that these "kids" must be "lying?"
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 11:46:05 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.
Really is Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry not count, Ursus. Yes, it has been established in the debates on this Web Site and the dozens upon dozens of other sites. All the interested reader has to do is read the various opinions on the sites. Most of the opinions are from kids that went through the programs.
What are you trying to say, Danny? Are you trying to say: that because the allegedly offending vernacular is used not only on fornits, but also on "Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry" ...  that this is further proof that these "kids" must be "lying?"

I thought what I said was very clear, read the comments from the various sites kids/adults from programs are calling other kids/adults from programs (most of the time they know one another, they are from the same program and time) liars and fabricators. They are challenging stories for there truthfulness.
I just wondered if you were going to acknowledge this information or act like it does not exist. Because it does. They are not EdConns, parents or ex-program kids/adults promoting programs for a certain program or Corp. These posters have no incentive to protect profits and they are not trying to  pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 15, 2010, 12:06:56 AM
I have no need to embellish or lie about my time in the program.  I have a life now and I am happy with it, despite their efforts.  The programs, on the other hand, and all who depend on them for their livelihood, have a very obvious need to maintain credibility.  This is why they change their names every couple of years and keep moving from one jurisdiction to another, with a few exceptions where there is particularly lax oversight.
   These programs still use a nearly identical “behavior modification” model to the one used by the place I was in 25 years ago.  The programs have worked very hard to conceal this fact from the public.  They have created their own language, like other human rights violators have done in the past, to soften public perception of their transgressions  ( re-education doesn’t sound that bad, like some kind of school, right? ).  
   So now we have the term; “escort services”, which tells the hearer nothing about what the services actually do.  Paid abductors would be better.  Or just goons.  


noun |?es?kôrt|
a person, vehicle, ship, or aircraft, or a group of these, accompanying another for protection, security, or as a mark of rank : a police escort | he was driven away under armed escort.
• a man who accompanies a woman to a particular social event.
• a person, typically a woman, who may be hired to accompany someone socially : [as adj. ] an escort agency.
verb |i?skôrt| [ trans. ]
accompany (someone or something) somewhere, esp. for protection or security, or as a mark of rank : Shiona escorted Janice to the door | the shipment was escorted by armed patrol boats.
ORIGIN late 16th cent. (originally denoting a body of armed men escorting travelers): from French escorte (noun), escorter (verb), from Italian scorta, feminine past participle of scorgere ‘to conduct, guide,’ based on Latin ex- ‘out of’ + corrigere ‘set right’ (see correct ).


   Please note there is nothing in this definition about “accompanying people” against their will.  This industry has also co-opted the words “boarding school”,
“drug treatment center” and “boot camp” into their web of deceit and greed.  The facilities now bearing these names, where they forcibly re-educate captive teenagers in a manner that would be strikingly reminiscent to a POW from the Korean war, bear no resemblance to their original definitions.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Ursus on October 15, 2010, 12:54:38 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.
Really is Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry not count, Ursus. Yes, it has been established in the debates on this Web Site and the dozens upon dozens of other sites. All the interested reader has to do is read the various opinions on the sites. Most of the opinions are from kids that went through the programs.
What are you trying to say, Danny? Are you trying to say: that because the allegedly offending vernacular is used not only on fornits, but also on "Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry" ...  that this is further proof that these "kids" must be "lying?"
I thought what I said was very clear, read the comments from the various sites kids/adults from programs are calling other kids/adults from programs (most of the time they know one another, they are from the same program and time) liars and fabricators. They are challenging stories for there truthfulness.
I just wondered if you were going to acknowledge this information or act like it does not exist. Because it does. They are not EdConns, parents or ex-program kids/adults promoting programs for a certain program or Corp. These posters have no incentive to protect profits and they are not trying to  pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts.
Well... your observations of human behavior have been my observations as well, but... these are not integrally pertinent to the point I was making. People calling each other liars and fabricators does not establish that any of the parties to the discussion are liars or fabricators, although some of them may well be. About the only safe conclusion you can draw from such observations, barring any additional information, is that folk are disagreeing with one another.

The point I was making has to do with the thematic structure of this thread, namely, how Whooter set it up.

The thread title was phrased as a question: "Why do Survivors need to Lie?" The question relies on a premise, namely, that "survivors need to lie." Of course, Whooter did not make said premise as the title of the thread, 'cuz he knew that such a thread would have been relegated to OFFA right pronto, since it's basically just inflammatory rhetoric. So, he phrased it as a question, hoping folks not in the know would just blindly accept the underlying premise, and those in the know would be put on the defensive.

Whooter used the first sentence of the OP as the vessel of proof and/or rationalization for making the thread: "It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs."

The phrasing of the opening sentence suggests that this statement is a widely accepted fact. Perhaps even one supported by empirical research and/or analysis. It is NOT. And yet, a certain group of people do seem to tout such claims or similar as "statements of fact," and they are usually EdCons and program proponents. Why? Because it is a marketing strategy.

While there are certainly many who tout claims that kids unhappy with their program experience are liars, fabricators and/or embellishers, it is usually quite clear, from the context if not the words themselves, that this is their belief or opinion. And... that's a somewhat different kettle of fish.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Ursus on October 15, 2010, 01:35:09 AM
To summarize (in case ya found the linguistic analysis too boring  ;) ):


I have no quibble, Danny, with your observation that people on "Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry" are calling each other liars, fabricators, equivocators, embellishers, and various other descriptives too colorful to repeat. I just don't find it overly pertinent to the above request, namely proof or evidence that "it is widely established" that kids "who did not do well [vis a vis their program(s)] have a need to embellish or lie."
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 15, 2010, 08:12:17 AM
Quote from: "Ursus"
To summarize (in case ya found the linguistic analysis too boring  ;) ):

  • Whooter titled this thread with a question based on a false or, at the least, arguable premise.
  • He supplied rationalization for said premise with a contestable statement that he offered as fact.
  • I requested proof or evidence that said statement was, indeed, "fact."
  • Whooter has yet to supply it. He has ignored my request.

I have no quibble, Danny, with your observation that people on "Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry" are calling each other liars, fabricators, equivocators, embellishers, and various other descriptives too colorful to repeat. I just don't find it overly pertinent to the above request, namely proof or evidence that "it is widely established" that kids "who did not do well [vis a vis their program(s)] have a need to embellish or lie."

Thanks, I can not at this point establish that all kids who did not do well in programs, embellish and lie either and make this a fact. Other then to say that, it appears most of the squabbling on these various sites is about how they did in their programs.
I do understand your comments here about the intent of this post. Point taken.
Yet I will say this, I can understand his defense to his character.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 15, 2010, 08:39:43 AM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
I have no need to embellish or lie about my time in the program.  I have a life now and I am happy with it, despite their efforts.  The programs, on the other hand, and all who depend on them for their livelihood, have a very obvious need to maintain credibility.  This is why they change their names every couple of years and keep moving from one jurisdiction to another, with a few exceptions where there is particularly lax oversight.
   These programs still use a nearly identical “behavior modification” model to the one used by the place I was in 25 years ago.  The programs have worked very hard to conceal this fact from the public.  They have created their own language, like other human rights violators have done in the past, to soften public perception of their transgressions  ( re-education doesn’t sound that bad, like some kind of school, right? ).  
   So now we have the term; “escort services”, which tells the hearer nothing about what the services actually do.  Paid abductors would be better.  Or just goons.  


noun |?es?kôrt|
a person, vehicle, ship, or aircraft, or a group of these, accompanying another for protection, security, or as a mark of rank : a police escort | he was driven away under armed escort.
• a man who accompanies a woman to a particular social event.
• a person, typically a woman, who may be hired to accompany someone socially : [as adj. ] an escort agency.
verb |i?skôrt| [ trans. ]
accompany (someone or something) somewhere, esp. for protection or security, or as a mark of rank : Shiona escorted Janice to the door | the shipment was escorted by armed patrol boats.
ORIGIN late 16th cent. (originally denoting a body of armed men escorting travelers): from French escorte (noun), escorter (verb), from Italian scorta, feminine past participle of scorgere ‘to conduct, guide,’ based on Latin ex- ‘out of’ + corrigere ‘set right’ (see correct ).


   Please note there is nothing in this definition about “accompanying people” against their will.  This industry has also co-opted the words “boarding school”,
“drug treatment center” and “boot camp” into their web of deceit and greed.  The facilities now bearing these names, where they forcibly re-educate captive teenagers in a manner that would be strikingly reminiscent to a POW from the Korean war, bear no resemblance to their original definitions.

Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.
There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School. BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.
Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself. This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.  
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 09:27:40 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "none-ya"
If the minor is not under arrest, then why can't he just say no! I ain't goin'. Because he has no rights to start with. If he dosen't go with the transporter, or won't get on the school bus, the the parents should call the cops.By the time it got to court, maybe he could get a lawyer or some sort of advocate.  to represent his(or her) wishes. problem is, kids don't have money. Nobody is lining up to represent children. It ain't safe to be a kid anywhere, anymore. And until things change. they'll just keep lining up (for a fee) to take the kids away. = LEGAL KIDNAPPING!

I guess the survivor would not be lying if there was a term "Legal Kidnapping" but I have never heard of this.  I understand what you are saying, none-ya, but I think the term "escort Service" would be the more accurate description.  



Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 15, 2010, 09:28:40 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.

Yes, and the word "escort" is a deliberate attempt to soften and hide the reality that these children are being "taken against their will".  In many cases they are just ASSUMED to be a danger to themselves or others.  What happened to innocent until proven guilty?


There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School.

I never said there was, my point was that they have taken words already in existence and used them to describe something reasonably new in this country, coercive thought reform facilities.  This is blatantly deceptive.

 BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.

OK, good point, I guess.  I was talking about the "wilderness survival camps".

Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself.

I never stop being angry at people like you and Whooter.

 This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.  

I reiterate;  I have no need to embellish or lie about my time in the program. I have a life now and I am happy with it, despite their efforts. The programs, on the other hand, and all who depend on them for their livelihood, have a very obvious need to maintain credibility. This is why they change their names every couple of years and keep moving from one jurisdiction to another, with a few exceptions where there is particularly lax oversight.
These programs still use a nearly identical “behavior modification” model to the one used by the place I was in 25 years ago. The programs have worked very hard to conceal this fact from the public. They have created their own language, like other human rights violators have done in the past, to soften public perception of their transgressions ( re-education doesn’t sound that bad, like some kind of school, right? ).
So now we have the term; “escort services”, which tells the hearer nothing about what the services actually do. Paid abductors would be better. Or just goons.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 09:30:06 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

Really is Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry not count, Ursus. Yes, it has been established in the debates on this Web Site and the dozens upon dozens of other sites. All the interested reader has to do is read the various opinions on the sites. Most of the opinions are from kids that went through the programs.


No, they don't count when you're being asked to back up something you've stated as fact.  Facebook, Myspace and Twitter are not examples of "proof" or "evidence".  ::)
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 09:32:31 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"

Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.

They're allowed to be taken without any proof whatsoever of them being a "danger" to anyone.

Quote
Do survivors lie and embellish.


Is that a question?  The answer is generally, no.  We don't have to.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DKincaidCFS on October 15, 2010, 09:39:48 AM
Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 09:43:37 AM
Quote from: "DKincaidCFS"
Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?


I think it's mostly program survivors.  There are a few ex-staff, a couple of program parents (both pro and con) and at least one EdCon I can think of.  Which category do you fall into?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 15, 2010, 09:45:06 AM
Quote from: "DKincaidCFS"
Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?

The vast majority of us are "program veterans" or "survivors", but one or two people here are obviously affiliated with programs and are trying to do damage control.  I hope you read this before the "gatekeeper" trashes it into the OFFA section.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DKincaidCFS on October 15, 2010, 09:50:04 AM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DKincaidCFS"
Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?


I think it's mostly program survivors.  There are a few ex-staff, a couple of program parents (both pro and con) and at least one EdCon I can think of.  Which category do you fall into?

I am doing some research into "programs" (for lack of a better term) and the people who attended them.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 09:52:52 AM
Quote from: "DKincaidCFS"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DKincaidCFS"
Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?


I think it's mostly program survivors.  There are a few ex-staff, a couple of program parents (both pro and con) and at least one EdCon I can think of.  Which category do you fall into?

I am doing some research into "programs" (for lack of a better term) and the people who attended them.

Have you had any exposure to them before this?  What sparked your interest?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DKincaidCFS on October 15, 2010, 09:56:44 AM
I have done extensive research into similar topics previously and I am now exploring this particular area to assess if it is meritorious of continued work geared ultimately toward publication.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 09:59:05 AM
Quote from: "DKincaidCFS"
I have done extensive research into similar topics previously and I am now exploring this particular area to assess if it is meritorious of continued work geared ultimately toward publication.


Great!  I hope you delve deeply into it.  Welcome.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Ursus on October 15, 2010, 10:21:30 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
I have no need to embellish or lie about my time in the program.  I have a life now and I am happy with it, despite their efforts.  The programs, on the other hand, and all who depend on them for their livelihood, have a very obvious need to maintain credibility.  This is why they change their names every couple of years and keep moving from one jurisdiction to another, with a few exceptions where there is particularly lax oversight.
   These programs still use a nearly identical “behavior modification” model to the one used by the place I was in 25 years ago.  The programs have worked very hard to conceal this fact from the public.  They have created their own language, like other human rights violators have done in the past, to soften public perception of their transgressions  ( re-education doesn’t sound that bad, like some kind of school, right? ).  
   So now we have the term; “escort services”, which tells the hearer nothing about what the services actually do.  Paid abductors would be better.  Or just goons.  


noun |?es?kôrt|
a person, vehicle, ship, or aircraft, or a group of these, accompanying another for protection, security, or as a mark of rank : a police escort | he was driven away under armed escort.
• a man who accompanies a woman to a particular social event.
• a person, typically a woman, who may be hired to accompany someone socially : [as adj. ] an escort agency.
verb |i?skôrt| [ trans. ]
accompany (someone or something) somewhere, esp. for protection or security, or as a mark of rank : Shiona escorted Janice to the door | the shipment was escorted by armed patrol boats.
ORIGIN late 16th cent. (originally denoting a body of armed men escorting travelers): from French escorte (noun), escorter (verb), from Italian scorta, feminine past participle of scorgere ‘to conduct, guide,’ based on Latin ex- ‘out of’ + corrigere ‘set right’ (see correct ).


   Please note there is nothing in this definition about “accompanying people” against their will.  This industry has also co-opted the words “boarding school”,
“drug treatment center” and “boot camp” into their web of deceit and greed.  The facilities now bearing these names, where they forcibly re-educate captive teenagers in a manner that would be strikingly reminiscent to a POW from the Korean war, bear no resemblance to their original definitions.
Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.
There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School. BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.
Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself. This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.  
Danny, not agreeing with another poster is NOT the same thing as attacking them. Lack of agreement is generally part and parcel of a discussion, especially one as controversial as this one.

Whether Shady is angry or not, I see nothing in Shady's post, quoted above, that can be construed or interpreted as an attack on Whooter or his character.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 10:30:27 AM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

If a guy who was shot in a hunting accident feels he needs to tell everyone he was shot by a terrorist because "Hunting Accident" doesnt describe the way he truly felt when he was shot this would still be wrong and it would be lying.

Why not be truthful and tell everyone it was an escort Service and then describe how tough those guys are and how you felt being handcuffed was abusive?  Why lie about it is my question.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 10:33:42 AM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Danny, not agreeing with another poster is NOT the same thing as attacking them. Lack of agreement is generally part and parcel of a discussion, especially one as controversial as this one.


Ursus, you forget that we're dealing with LGAT mentality here (this isn't an attack either.  It's an observation that I fully believe is true).  Of course disagreeing is considered attacking.  In the LGAT world, you just do NOT question what you're told to think!  Those of us who've been in programs know exactly what happens if you do.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 11:05:38 AM
Ursus, you were looking for examples of kids lying or embellishing their stories.  Just a quick scan of the database here on fornits brings up many examples.  Here are a few of them:

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=65118#p65118)
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14548&p=303137&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p303137)
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24538&p=302114&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p302114)
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24369&p=299920&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p299920)
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 15, 2010, 11:19:47 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Ursus, you were looking for examples of kids lying or embellishing their stories.  Just a quick scan of the database here on fornits brings up many examples.  Here are a few of them:

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=65118#p65118)
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14548&p=303137&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p303137)
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24538&p=302114&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p302114)
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24369&p=299920&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p299920)
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.



...

This is not lying.  These people are telling the truth AS THEY SEE IT.  At least one of these posters was a parent with no affiliation with any program.  To that parent, their daughters friend was kidnapped and tortured, period.  This, along with your other three examples lends credence to our argument that "escort" is grossly misleading and what is happening to these kids is much closer to most peoples definition of "kidnapping and torture".
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 12:07:54 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"

This is not lying.  These people are telling the truth AS THEY SEE IT.  At least one of these posters was a parent with no affiliation with any program.  To that parent, their daughters friend was kidnapped and tortured, period.  This, along with your other three examples lends credence to our argument that "escort" is grossly misleading and what is happening to these kids is much closer to most peoples definition of "kidnapping and torture".

Its not misleading if that is what happened to them.  How can it be?  If you were escorted than that is the fact.  If it felt different then the person can explain that but they shouldnt lie.

What if another survivor says he felt like he was abused in his program.  If after we speak to him he says he was forced to sit in a class room all day which to him "AS HE SEES IT" is abusive.  Would this then also have to be considered abuse?

If a guy says he was shot by a terrorist but it turns out to be a hunting accident.  Can he justify his lie by saying he felt terrorized and thought he was going to die?  The fact is that he was not shot by a terrorist.  The same as these kids, the fact is that they were escorted to their school.

A person cannot change the facts because of how they feel.  They can say they got hit by a bus when in fact they got hit by a bicycle just because it felt like a bus.

Spreading lies that you were kidnapped when in fact you were not is just wrong.  The same as if you were saying you were abused when in fact you were just forced to sit in a class room is lying also.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 12:12:19 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 15, 2010, 12:16:02 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"

This is not lying.  These people are telling the truth AS THEY SEE IT.  At least one of these posters was a parent with no affiliation with any program.  To that parent, their daughters friend was kidnapped and tortured, period.  This, along with your other three examples lends credence to our argument that "escort" is grossly misleading and what is happening to these kids is much closer to most peoples definition of "kidnapping and torture".

Its not misleading if that is what happened to them.  How can it be?  If you were escorted than that is the fact.  If it felt different then the person can explain that but they shouldnt lie.

What if another survivor says he felt like he was abused in his program.  If after we speak to him he says he was forced to sit in a class room all day which to him "AS HE SEES IT" is abusive.  Would this then also have to be considered abuse?

If a guy says he was shot by a terrorist but it turns out to be a hunting accident.  Can he justify his lie by saying he felt terrorized and thought he was going to die?  The fact is that he was not shot by a terrorist.  The same as these kids, the fact is that they were escorted to their school.

A person cannot change the facts because of how they feel.  They can say they got hit by a bus when in fact they got hit by a bicycle just because it felt like a bus.

Spreading lies that you were kidnapped when in fact you were not is just wrong.  The same as if you were saying you were abused when in fact you were just forced to sit in a class room is lying also.



...

Same as if you created a fake family in order to advance your agenda.  People, seriously, why do you humor the ultimate liar?

Quote from: "whooter"
I fabricated a son

'Nuff said.  Nobody else here has ever been shown to be liar of this magnitude.  Not even  :shamrock: Li'l sidekick :shamrock: .
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 12:26:51 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?

No, my question was "Why lie about it"? (no you specifically)  Why do people lie and tell people they were kidnapped?  Why not just be honest and say they were taken by an escort service and then tell them it felt like they were kidnapped instead of deceiving people.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 15, 2010, 12:31:02 PM
Why don't you "just be honest"?  You fabricated a whole family, man.  What's your need to lie?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 12:35:19 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?

No, my question was "Why lie about it"? (no you specifically)  

Then you should have phrased it that way instead of, again, trying to make it seem as if I've said something I haven't.


Quote
Why do people lie and tell people they were kidnapped?  Why not just be honest and say they were taken by an escort service and then tell them it felt like they were kidnapped instead of deceiving people.

To them, being woken up in the middle of the night, handcuffed and taken by force to a place that doesn't have proper credentials to "treat" anyone, let alone a "troubled child", where said child has no recourse to report abuse or ask for help IS kidnapping.  To you, it's escorting so you use that word because that's what you believe it to be.  They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is.  But you know this already and are playing semantics again in order to cloud the issue.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 15, 2010, 12:51:42 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?

No, my question was "Why lie about it"? (no you specifically)  Why do people lie and tell people they were kidnapped?  Why not just be honest and say they were taken by an escort service and then tell them it felt like they were kidnapped instead of deceiving people.



...

Why do professional kidnappers who work for programs feel the need to lie and call their services "escort services"?  They are armed, they are taking a minor away, by force, to a place where they will have no human rights and no recourse to the law.  I think this is the root of your misconception, Whooter.  You are believing the side that obviously has a vested financial interest in these programs maintaining a benign public image.  And, inexplicably, dismissing out of hand all the reports of abuse from people who have actually been through one of these places.  Why would you do that, I wonder?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 12:57:22 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Then you should have phrased it that way instead of, again, trying to make it seem as if I've said something I haven't.
I didnt say "Why did you lie about it?  I said:

... why lie about it?

But I will try to phrase things more carefully for you.

Quote
To them, being woken up in the middle of the night, handcuffed and taken by force to a place that doesn't have proper credentials to "treat" anyone, let alone a "troubled child", where said child has no recourse to report abuse or ask for help IS kidnapping.  To you, it's escorting so you use that word because that's what you believe it to be.  They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is.  But you know this already and are playing semantics again in order to cloud the issue.

I think the key to this (or one of them) is this statement "They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is."

So it really doesn't matter if it is fact or not.  They are stating what they believe it to be.  If someone pointed out to them that it was an escort service then would they still ignore the facts and report it as kidnapping?  I think the answer is "yes" to this.

Along the same line of thinking then would it also be okay to report something which occurred inside the program as abuse even though it was not abuse.  If the child thought cleaning their room was abusive then it is okay to tell everyone that they were abused by the program?  If a child never had to clean his room before then this very well may feel like abuse to him.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Froderik on October 15, 2010, 01:03:14 PM
Lying is what Whooter does best.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 01:06:45 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Then you should have phrased it that way instead of, again, trying to make it seem as if I've said something I haven't.
I didnt say "Why did you lie about it?  I said:

... why lie about it?

But I will try to phrase things more carefully for you.

Quote
To them, being woken up in the middle of the night, handcuffed and taken by force to a place that doesn't have proper credentials to "treat" anyone, let alone a "troubled child", where said child has no recourse to report abuse or ask for help IS kidnapping.  To you, it's escorting so you use that word because that's what you believe it to be.  They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is.  But you know this already and are playing semantics again in order to cloud the issue.

I think the key to this (or one of them) is this statement "They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is."

So it really doesn't matter if it is fact or not.  They are stating what they believe it to be.  If someone pointed out to them that it was an escort service then would they still ignore the facts and report it as kidnapping?

Just because they refer to themselves as an 'escort service' that doesn't meant that's what they actually do.  Do they provide hookers to the kids?

Quote
 I think the answer is "yes" to this.

If you're going to answer your own questions, why ask them?

Quote
Along the same line of thinking then would it also be okay to report something which occurred inside the program as abuse even though it was not abuse.  If the child thought cleaning their room was abusive then it is okay to tell everyone that they were abused by the program?  If a child never had to clean his room before then this very well may feel like abuse to him.

This is why I hate getting into discussions with you.  Your stupid analogies that have NOTHING to do with the subject at hand and your talent for spin make me dizzy.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 01:10:02 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"

Why do professional kidnappers who work for programs feel the need to lie and call their services "escort services"?  They are armed, they are taking a minor away, by force, to a place where they will have no human rights and no recourse to the law.  I think this is the root of your misconception, Whooter.  You are believing the side that obviously has a vested financial interest in these programs maintaining a benign public image.  

I am not believing one side or the other, Shady.  I am just stating the facts.  Look up the escort sites.  Look for various amber alerts.  Are any of these agencies being investigated for kidnapping.  I haven't been able to find even one.   How many reported kidnappings in the united states end up with the kid in a program?  Where are all the reports and arrests?  Being kidnapped is a fantasy statement for many on fornits.  If you were really being truthful you would state that they were escorted to the program and then expand on it like..... the escort service was harsh and handcuffed me and forced me into their car etc.  But you dont do that, you need to try to deceive the reader.  Once your friend or the readers figures out that you were not really kidnapped then your credibility is zero and no one will believe the rest of your story.  How could they?  How would they be able to differentiate between the fantasy and the facts.


Quote
And, inexplicably, dismissing out of hand all the reports of abuse from people who have actually been through one of these places.  Why would you do that, I wonder?

again you do this.  Where did I dismiss all reports of abuse.  See this is what you believe so it makes it factual to you.  I never stated That I dismiss all reports of abuse.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 15, 2010, 01:24:44 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
you need to try to deceive the reader

No, you need to try to deceive the reader.  You are liar of the first magnitude.  You made up your whole family and story.  Your "credibility is zero," not the others who post here.

Did you forget this?

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

Only a whacko would make up shit like that.  You're crazy, man.  Your whole life is a lie.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 15, 2010, 01:29:42 PM
Once your friend or the readers figures out that you were not really who you claimed to be, then your credibility is zero and no one will believe the rest of your story. How could they? How would they be able to differentiate between the fantasy and the facts.  


"whooter wrote:
I fabricated a son

I am done, I had enough of program toads when I was locked in one of those cesspits.  Kudos though Whooter, you are a champion liar and spin doctor, I can only imagine how many parents you have conned to get so good at this argument.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 01:35:22 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Once your friend or the readers figures out that you were not really who you claimed to be, then your credibility is zero and no one will believe the rest of your story. How could they? How would they be able to differentiate between the fantasy and the facts.  


"whooter wrote:
I fabricated a son

I am done, I had enough of program toads when I was locked in one of those cesspits.

 :tup:   It's so tiresome.

 
Quote
Kudos though Whooter, you are a champion liar and spin doctor, I can only imagine how many parents you have conned to get so good at this argument.

He's a marketer (yes, yes....it's my belief).  It's pretty much his profession to spin.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 15, 2010, 02:00:30 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
He's a marketer (yes, yes....it's my belief). It's pretty much his profession to spin.

He's a program marketer.  That's the key.  No normal person unconnected to programs would spend over five years here trying to discredit people who were abused by programs.  It just fails the smell test.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 02:03:41 PM
There are a few threads here dedicated to attacking me personally.  Cant we please keep the personal attacks in those threads?  I will try to get down there to respond in those sections is you like.

Back to the Topic:

I sense from the frustration level and argument that many here feel that the escort services should be renamed “Kidnapping Services”.  Maybe I would even agree with you, but we cant do that on our own and expect to communicate to people outside of fornits what happened to you.

If you stated that you were taken to a program by an escort service and then went on to explain how you were treated and how you felt you were kidnapped then this would get your point across just as effectively.  But to lie to people that you were kidnapped you run the risk of getting caught in that lie and then no one believing you.  If later on you state that you were abused in the program people would step back a little and say “This is the same person who lied about being kidnapped so how do we know he is telling the truth about being abused”?  

If the person redefines  kidnapping then maybe he/she is redefining abuse too.

Do you see what I mean?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Froderik on October 15, 2010, 02:05:24 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
same old shit same old shit same old shit same old shit same old shit

^^ LIES ^^
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 02:05:44 PM
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
He's a marketer (yes, yes....it's my belief). It's pretty much his profession to spin.

He's a program marketer.  That's the key.  No normal person unconnected to programs would spend over five years here trying to discredit people who were abused by programs.  It just fails the smell test.


Oh absolutely.  But I believe his background even before he shipped his kid off (whatever the gender.....I can't keep track anymore) was in marketing, but probably wasn't too successful.  He just saw the opportunity to cash in with the TTI and scared, vulnerable parents.  They're easier marks.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 15, 2010, 03:14:25 PM
Danny B wrote:
Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.
There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School. BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.
Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself. This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.


Ursus wrote:
Danny, not agreeing with another poster is NOT the same thing as attacking them. Lack of agreement is generally part and parcel of a discussion, especially one as controversial as this one.

Whether Shady is angry or not, I see nothing in Shady's post, quoted above, that can be construed or interpreted as an attack on Whooter or his character.


DannyB wrote:
I guess I was taking into account the totality of his posts towards Whooter and generalizing my judgment of his attitude. Which I don't think is that far off. Between Watchful Yoemen and Shady they are running neck and neck with their sarcastic negative responses.
Ursus, try this out. If you have been asked countless times who you are, what are you doing here, what is your name, who do you work for ect...and have answered all these questions to the best of your ability, taking into consideration confidentiality and after all of this you are still subjected to ridicule and and slander, Yes I would call this attacking.
More to the point, if he said his name is not John Rueben and you keep callinh him that, I would say that is attacking. Same with his employment, family and so on. Folks here are calling him names, saying he works for fictitious EDConns, Corps ect...disparaging his family and so on. This is all attacking because he has said it is not true. You have not conclusively proven he is lying, at all.
All this ties into why survivors need to lie, you/they just can not tolerate a mild mannered highly intelligent parent in your so-called backyard. You folks begin to vibrate and sweat and you have to remove this obstacle of fear, yes Whooter represents one big fear you folks can not control.
I'll talk about this more later. Hope it remains here and doesn't get moved to "offa".
Oh, I do agree with you in your first sentence there above, thanks.


Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 15, 2010, 03:41:02 PM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Danny B wrote:
Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.
There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School. BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.
Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself. This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.


Ursus wrote:
Danny, not agreeing with another poster is NOT the same thing as attacking them. Lack of agreement is generally part and parcel of a discussion, especially one as controversial as this one.

Whether Shady is angry or not, I see nothing in Shady's post, quoted above, that can be construed or interpreted as an attack on Whooter or his character.


DannyB wrote:
I guess I was taking into account the totality of his posts towards Whooter and generalizing my judgment of his attitude. Which I don't think is that far off. Between Watchful Yoemen and Shady they are running neck and neck with their sarcastic negative responses.
Ursus, try this out. If you have been asked countless times who you are, what are you doing here, what is your name, who do you work for ect...and have answered all these questions to the best of your ability, taking into consideration confidentiality and after all of this you are still subjected to ridicule and and slander, Yes I would call this attacking.
More to the point, if he said his name is not John Rueben and you keep callinh him that, I would say that is attacking. Same with his employment, family and so on. Folks here are calling him names, saying he works for fictitious EDConns, Corps ect...disparaging his family and so on. This is all attacking because he has said it is not true. You have not conclusively proven he is lying, at all.
All this ties into why survivors need to lie, you/they just can not tolerate a mild mannered highly intelligent parent in your so-called backyard. You folks begin to vibrate and sweat and you have to remove this obstacle of fear, yes Whooter represents one big fear you folks can not control.
I'll talk about this more later. Hope it remains here and doesn't get moved to "offa".
Oh, I do agree with you in your first sentence there above, thanks.



Making the same obtuse pigheaded argument over and over no matter what the other side says is not "highly intelligent".  And accusing other posters of molesting their own children, as I have read in Whooters posts, is not "mild mannered".  And telling all of us here, who know full well how abusive the treatment we received was, that nobody believes us because our accounts do not sound the way he thinks they should sound, how is that "mild mannered"?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 03:41:54 PM
Anne allow me to use you as an example for a moment

A good example of a survivor embellishing is when Anne Bonney gets frustrated with a conversation she will start to make up lies about people and attack them.  This plays itself out over and over again here on fornits.  

So, if a survivor has a habit of doing this then would this same person make up lies about the program they were in if they hated it and were frustrated that they couldn't fight back.  I believe that if someone is willing to lie, embellish and exaggerate here on fornits against another poster then it is easy to conclude that she would lie about events in her program also.

Anne Bonney wrote about whooter a few posts back:
Quote
He just saw the opportunity to cash in with the TTI and scared, vulnerable parents. They're easier marks.
The above quote is just one of many lies that Anne continues to peddle.

Comparing this to the original topic.  "Why do survivors need to lie?"

Why does Anne Bonney need to lie about me here on this thread?  Because she is frustrated that I will not agree with her?  Why not come out and say why you are frustrated?  Is it because I lied also in a thread awhile back?  Because I am middle of the road to pro-program? or because I wont agree with you?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 04:37:50 PM
I'm not quite sure how I can "embellish" a belief I hold and I stated it as my belief, not a fact. But feel free to try & bait me some more.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 04:47:38 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
I'm not quite sure how I can "embellish" a belief I hold and I stated it as my belief, not a fact. But feel free to try & bait me some more.

Yes, you stated the first sentence as a believe.  But not the second where I took the quote from (which supported the title of this thread).  Dont play the victim about being baited, anne.  You do it all day long, name calling is part of your M.O..  Anyway we can move on I wanted to make my point, which I did, but I dont want to create a flame war over this.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 05:01:27 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"

Making the same obtuse pigheaded argument over and over no matter what the other side says is not "highly intelligent".  And accusing other posters of molesting their own children, as I have read in Whooters posts, is not "mild mannered".  And telling all of us here, who know full well how abusive the treatment we received was, that nobody believes us because our accounts do not sound the way he thinks they should sound, how is that "mild mannered"?

Shady, I am sorry I come across as you describe.  I do understand the abuse that many of you received.  But why would someone jeopardize themselves being believed by lying or embellishing their stories?  I have never understood that.

If someone like Shaggy can communicate what occurred to him effectively by just telling the truth why cant other people?  He didnt need to lie to get his point across and describe what happened to him.

Do some people feel telling the truth just isn't abusive enough or dramatic enough?  Does adding words like torture, Gulag and kidnapping attract more sympathy or gain more attention?  I think this is what I am looking to understand.  I heard answers like:  It feels like kidnapping to them,  or the law should be changed to call it kidnapping.  Which makes a little more sense but doesn't explain why they would jeopardize being caught lying for a little more drama.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 15, 2010, 05:29:20 PM
Quote
Shady wrote:
Making the same obtuse pigheaded argument over and over no matter what the other side says is not "highly intelligent".  And accusing other posters of molesting their own children, as I have read in Whooters posts, is not "mild mannered".  And telling all of us here, who know full well how abusive the treatment we received was, that nobody believes us because our accounts do not sound the way he thinks they should sound, how is that "mild mannered"?

Well I think you should examine yourself and find out why you do the same thing yet are strangely detached from this reality.
Shady, seriously you are no different, he has his opinions as you have yours. Difference Whooter is not going out of his way to lie and fabricate stories, either about the TTI or other people personally. His short comings usually are within a response better yet a defense.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 15, 2010, 10:31:30 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Another derail thread created solely to tarnish survivors. It's sad really.  Specifically when it originates from someone who takes great pride in pernicious perfidy. The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable.

Jeesh, Samara, why have we not heard you complain like this when posts were being written about others. I hate to tell you but you folks are not above lying and down right manipulative reactions.

Your quote:
"The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable".

My quote:
How about this characterization, just basic garden variety folks. See, not all the drama.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Eliscu2 on October 16, 2010, 06:06:50 AM
:seg:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 16, 2010, 09:46:24 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote
Shady wrote:
Making the same obtuse pigheaded argument over and over no matter what the other side says is not "highly intelligent".  And accusing other posters of molesting their own children, as I have read in Whooters posts, is not "mild mannered".  And telling all of us here, who know full well how abusive the treatment we received was, that nobody believes us because our accounts do not sound the way he thinks they should sound, how is that "mild mannered"?

Well I think you should examine yourself and find out why you do the same thing yet are strangely detached from this reality.
Shady, seriously you are no different, he has his opinions as you have yours.

The difference is my opinion is based on my own experience INSIDE one of these programs, while Whooter admits he was never in one.

 Difference Whooter is not going out of his way to lie and fabricate stories, either about the TTI or other people personally.

Are we talking about the same Whooter?

 His short comings usually are within a response better yet a defense.

I could not understand that last sentence at all so I don't know how to respond to it.  

The very title of this thread tells you how much respect he has for everyone here.  He has been pissing in this pool for years and you just stand by and let him do it?  Where are your balls?  I guess they broke you pretty good at Elan.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 16, 2010, 10:32:29 AM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"

I could not understand that last sentence at all so I don't know how to respond to it.  

The very title of this thread tells you how much respect he has for everyone here.  He has been pissing in this pool for years and you just stand by and let him do it?  Where are your balls?  I guess they broke you pretty good at Elan.

Speaking of Balls, Shadyacres.  Why do you piss and moan about me but accept all the lies said about me personally?  People say I profit from the industry, had kids who committed suicide a wife that left me etc.  The list is extensive.

People make up stories all the time and lie.  Why do you stand by and accept this if lying bothers you so much?  Could it be a double standard?

How about if I started saying you deserved to be in a program because your parents didnt want to raise their own grandchild and that you had dropped out of school and were heading for your 3rd abortion and they were tired of paying to get you out of jail?  Would that be okay? or is it only okay if the person being lied about is pro-program or holds a moderate view?

You only see what you chose to see Shady.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 16, 2010, 01:19:49 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote
Shady wrote:
Making the same obtuse pigheaded argument over and over no matter what the other side says is not "highly intelligent".  And accusing other posters of molesting their own children, as I have read in Whooters posts, is not "mild mannered".  And telling all of us here, who know full well how abusive the treatment we received was, that nobody believes us because our accounts do not sound the way he thinks they should sound, how is that "mild mannered"?

Well I think you should examine yourself and find out why you do the same thing yet are strangely detached from this reality.
Shady, seriously you are no different, he has his opinions as you have yours.

The difference is my opinion is based on my own experience INSIDE one of these programs, while Whooter admits he was never in one.

 Difference Whooter is not going out of his way to lie and fabricate stories, either about the TTI or other people personally.

Are we talking about the same Whooter?

 His short comings usually are within a response better yet a defense.

I could not understand that last sentence at all so I don't know how to respond to it.


The very title of this thread tells you how much respect he has for everyone here.  He has been pissing in this pool for years and you just stand by and let him do it?  Where are your balls?  I guess they broke you pretty good at Elan.


My last sentence refers to Whooters frustration sometimes with malicious posters who blatantly beat up other posters they see as weaker.
Short comings: (character flaws (peccadilloes) slight nuance of a larger flaw) Whooter sometimes shows these nuances in his defense, to a post.  
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 16, 2010, 02:15:04 PM
Quote
My last sentence refers to Whooters frustration sometimes with malicious posters who blatantly beat up other posters they see as weaker.
Short comings: (character flaws (peccadilloes) slight nuance of a larger flaw) Whooter sometimes shows these nuances in his defense, to a post.

Yet you ignore that all Whooter does is lie about not only surivors, but about himself.

Take a look:

Here he jokes about molesting his own make believe daughter and having her killed:

Quote
by TheWho » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:52 am

"Guest" wrote:
Ignore the who. He talks about respect for privacy but regularly makes reference to his own daughter and claims he molested her. The man belongs in jail

I heard he had his daughter killed and hired someone to molest her. He is one sicko, he should be banned from posting.

http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21541&hilit=molest&start=45

We've already seen how he fabricated his daughter, why does he have a need to lie?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 16, 2010, 02:18:25 PM
Here he not only further acknowledges his sons existence and death, but makes fun of it:

Quote
Report this postReply with quoteRe: "TheWho"'s True Identity
by TheWho » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:18 am

Why did you say that, who?


Rudy Bentz is a sex offender,murderer and torturer.

Yes, I did see his resume, I think it is also on Linkedin also.


Rudy Bentz, your ally, runner of the gulags called CEDU and academy at swift river. As are YOU, through your complicity with him.

I miss those days, has anyone heard how he is doing?



Was it sad looking at the corpse of your son?

I actually couldn’t make it. I was getting a complimentary trip from Aspen. But I had it filmed, I plan to watch it this summer.


I bet you thought "great marketing opprotunity."

I am not a betting man. I saw the opportunity and the money that came in from the first obit was amazing!! Imagine how much I could make if both kids died. A parents dream!! It was a sure thing.


Your son felt such pain because of you.

I know isn’t it great!! I wish ASR would take more pictures.


You degraded and murdered him.

We all have to die someday!!! Degradation is just part of the journey.



You had him sexually abused.

I called ahead to make sure they could do it right!!


and SUVs (stripped searched) Maybe the guards fondled him extra? --they usually do.

They better have, I paid extra for that!! Did you hear that they didn’t? I would be disappointed, maybe sue... they cashed the check!!!



I bet that thought appeals to you.

Ahhhh... you know me well!!!


http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27884&p=336599&hilit=sexually#p336599
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 16, 2010, 02:29:31 PM
Here John creates a fake persona (lie) and ridicules and dismisses a girls report of being sexually abused in a program:

Quote
Re: Katies Story
by TheWho » Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:23 pm

Deprogrammed wrote:
NeilW wrote:
So what if I am a parent, does that make me bad? I come to fornits for good reasons. When a kid posts their story of what they claim happened in a program, someone needs to play devils advocate and question their story. I do this through direct confrontation, or humor. If a kid says they were sexually abused, I might make a joke about it. I know for a fact sexual abuse doesn't happen in programs, so I don't see the issue with making it into a humurous situation.
If some kid decides to list the abuses directed against them, I might copy the list then point out which individual actions of abuse amuse me the most, and which one's are my favorites. You have to remember, abuse doesn't happen in programs. When some of you claim that it does, I know you are lying and I know pointing it out will make you upset. Then I can point out how venemous you are, and go to bed feeling like I made a difference in the world for good.

I'm not going to get upset or angry either. In fact I am going to remain incredibly calm while I tell you Mr. Dearest Neil, that you are a sick, sick, sick fuck.
That is all.
-DP

Sorry everyone, a troll hijacked my name and making some havoc. Guess thats what I get for not opening up an account.

NeilW


http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=27274&p=329784&hilit=sexually#p329784
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 16, 2010, 02:47:38 PM
Here John tries to criticize another poster for posting anonymously or posting under other user names:

Quote
Remember that you are anonymous yourself, Ajax. Why do you cower behind a false name? If you were being truthful you would have nothing to hide and would post honestly under your name.

http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24460&p=337817&hilit=Ajax#p337817

He ignores the fact that he routinely does this himself. Why do you have to lie John?
Title: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 06:01:21 PM
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.  I have always been curious as to why just being honest and telling the truth isn’t sufficient enough.

In my opinion this just diminishes the credibility of the information being presented.  

If programs are truly abusive and posters here on fornits believe that then why lie?  Why not just write that you were abused in a program and explain what happened and by whom?  Why make up stories of being kidnapped and held in a prison, placed in isolation in a Gulag and brainwashed?  It is really easy to check the credibility of this.  I don’t think one amber alert resulted in the capture of a teenager being located at a program nor a link to a report of a child being kidnapped.  Yet we read on fornits that this occurs everyday.

So why the lies?  Just curious.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 06:06:47 PM
We would expect a person who had a difficult stay in a program to describe it like this:

The place was like a prison, I met a few friends and the counselors were nice for the most part but there was this one counselor who was downright abusive. I did learn a few things about myself and am grateful for that but overall I think it was a waste of time. I wish I could have spent more time working on my writing instead of the group therapies which were a waste of time. The food was okay, but I would never want to go back.

Why do we hear it this way?

I was kidnapped and held captive in a Gulag where I was abused 24/7. The place should be shut down. Every program is abusive and performs brainwashing on people. Not one child has ever benefited from a program. If they tell you this then they must be brainwashed themselves.

Is it done for attention?  If someday a child really does get abused in a program how are they going to convince anyone here on fornits.  Everyone is so desensitized to these words that they really dont hold any meaning.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 06:38:02 PM
To further explain my point (or question) if a person needs to call their program a Gulag and tell everyone they were kidnapped and brainwashed which we can agree are obvious exaggerations then how can we believe them when they say they were abused?  Where  can we differentiate between fact and fiction?  Where is the indication that abuse is not just part of the ongoing exaggeration?  Which part is true and which is false.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: none-ya on October 13, 2010, 08:19:36 PM
How many times has this all been explained toyou and you still don't get it? I just wish there was some way  to put it  where the light bulb would finally light up over your head. But I guess you're never gonna' wake up.
BOOOO!!!
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 13, 2010, 08:27:51 PM
Your question is loaded, Whooter.  A better question might be: "Do survivors lie and if so, when and where?"  Ya see. I can't really find many specific examples of that.  Usually when a survivor is accused of lying his/her story is later confirmed.  Sometimes in court.  Who would believe the things that happened at Straight Inc. were it not substantiated by many different people.  Who would believe Cheryl Sudweeks at Whitmore would throw kids down stairs... but it was confirmed by the GAO and in court.  Such bizarre and over the top things have happened that it's difficult to discount even the most outrageous stories.  In Western Samoa at Paradise Cove, a boy's puppy was thrown off a cliff to it's death by staff.  That was witnessed by multiple people.  The french maid thing at MBA?  I know that happened because we had a nearly identical skit at Benchmark.

I'm sure some survivor somewhere has lied.  I'm sure some survivors have toned down their stories to make them more believable (and less realistic). I'm sure the opposite is true as well but you'd be hard pressed to find any concrete examples.  I'm speaking in hypotheticals here.  All that being said it has been proven time and time again that programs and their representatives lie, or at the very least stretch the truth.  Not to be prejudiced here, but the trend does tend to lean towards survivors when it comes to the truth.  When there is a profit motive there is much more incentive to lie.  That's not to say profit is a bad thing. It's to say parents should be aware that these programs are businesses first and foremost, are subject to very little if any meaningful oversight, and are very difficult for the untrained (or even trained) eye to judge.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Samara on October 13, 2010, 08:44:50 PM
Another derail thread created solely to tarnish survivors. It's sad really.  Specifically when it originates from someone who takes great pride in pernicious perfidy. The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 09:18:44 PM
I guess I am not being very clear.  Maybe everyone is so use to the exaggerations that they seem like normal talk.  Take the GAO for instance.  We have all read the words of the parents and Sen Miller.  If you scan the documents you will find that they never found one instance of a child being kidnapped and held in a gulag.  I don’t recall any of the programs being cited for Brainwashing (unless I missed it).  But they did find kids to be abused in some of these facilities.

Why do we hear of all these kidnappings and Gulags, incarcerations and brainwashing here on fornits when the investigation could not find any sign of this?  Why do survivors here on fornits find a need to embellish their stories with these fantasies which do not exist in the real world?

If we read another story her on fornits that a person was kidnapped, taken to a Gulag where they were incarcerated, tortured and brainwashed what does that tell the reader?  Is it a plea for attention?  Or just added drama to try to communicate that the person didn’t want to go to that program?  I understand that many kids are dramatic and exaggerate, but what if a kid comes along that really was abused and loaded up his story with these fantasy words.  How could we differentiate between what is real and what isn’t?  How would we know that when he used the word abuse it wasn’t just another exaggeration for being forced to do his homework, like kidnapped may mean the child was taken to the program unwillingly.

@ Samara, glad to see you are true to form and stand on the sidelines and just criticize others and derail the post instead of trying to discuss the issue.  You didnt seem to have a problem when the subject was pro-program people lying.  Are you starting to see why I take the position I have with you?  I feel I have been justified in how I have perceived you.  Do you know why people on fornits use kidnapping, Gulag etc. to describe things and events where no one else does?
Do you think you would be taken seriously if you walked into the local police station and said "I just escaped from the local Gulag where I have been incarcerated, tortured and brainwashed for 12 months.  My kidnappers are still on the loose."  Would you blame them for taking you back to the school thinking you need more help by the way you were mixing fantasy with reality?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 13, 2010, 09:51:18 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
I guess I am not being very clear.  Maybe everyone is so use to the exaggerations that they seem like normal talk.  Take the GAO for instance.  We have all read the words of the parents and Sen Miller.  If you scan the documents you will find that they never found one instance of a child being kidnapped and held in a gulag.

It's a metaphor.  Come on, Whooter.  We've been through this before.  Kidnapping is depriving a person of liberty without due process.  A Gulag is a facility where such people are kept.  They're descriptive terms that happen to fit.  Gulags were also used to "re-educate"  and brainwash people, which is more or less the same function which these programs provide.  And as far as kidnapping goes, what escorts do is probably legally exactly that.  It's just that they're never prosecuted.

Quote
I don’t recall any of the programs being cited for Brainwashing.

Actually, Ken Stettler used that exact term in the GAO hearings to describe what programs do.  Sorry, Whooter, but whether you like it or not, that's what he said.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 13, 2010, 09:54:51 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
If we read another story her on fornits that a person was kidnapped, taken to a Gulag where they were incarcerated, tortured and brainwashed what does that tell the reader?  Is it a plea for attention?  Or just added drama to try to communicate that the person didn’t want to go to that program?  I understand that many kids are dramatic and exaggerate

They're not exaggerations.  They're descriptive statements of opinion.  I, personally, avoid such language because of how it sounds and how most people interpret it, but I understand why those who have had negative experiences in programs choose to do so.  Just because you disagree with a person's opinion doesn't mean that they're lying.  It just means that your perspectives differ.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: none-ya on October 13, 2010, 10:22:22 PM
If someone was dragged from their home in shackles in the middle of the night how could that not be described as kidnapping? Just 'cause it's a kid I guess. you could never get away with "transporting" an adult.
Not much of a lie or an exaggeration.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 10:23:37 PM
Quote from: "psy"
It's a metaphor.  Come on, Whooter.  We've been through this before.  Kidnapping is depriving a person of liberty without due process.  A Gulag is a facility where such people are kept.  They're descriptive terms that happen to fit.  Gulags in russia were also used to "re-educate" people, which is more or less the same function which these programs provide.

Kidnapping is illegal and if the person is caught they will spend time in jail.  The people who transport these children are not committing any crimes.  Gulags are in Russia as you mentioned used for re-education.  
Why not use the terms program or escort if the people are not trying to embellish their situation?  It communicates much easier to both fornits and non-fornits people.  Police officers can understand it better also.  I think if the kids were not trying to seek attention or exaggerate then they would use the correct terms.  That way if someone mentioned they were abused they may have some credibility.  Do you see what I mean?



Quote
Actually, Ken Stettler used that exact term in the GAO hearings to describe what programs do.  Sorry, Whooter, but whether you like it or not, that's what he said.

The issue isn't whether I like it or not. The issue is whether or not it is true.  He may have used the term.  But if they thought these places brainwashed kids then they would have been closed down that day.  Do you realize what real brain washing entails?  Even if a program tried to do this I couldnt possibly see how they could pull it off.
I was interested in this briefly when I was in highschool and I dont think the programs have an environment and personnel capable of achieving this level of thought control and re-education.  ( I am sure you can site an example, but I am talking about this happening today)

Maybe I am missing the point and brainwashing is being used as another metaphor.  This is what I mean, its confusing to figure out what is a metaphor and what is not.
If the same kid says that he was abused should we take that as a metaphor for something else, say being forced to study?

I think my point is that communication is all mucked up and its hard to tell what is real and what isnt.



...



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 10:29:26 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
If someone was dragged from their home in shackles in the middle of the night how could that not be described as kidnapping? Just 'cause it's a kid I guess. you could never get away with "transporting" an adult.
Not much of a lie or an exaggeration.

I can see the kid maybe thinking this at first.  But fairly quickly the child understands that it is an escort service.  they stop and get McDonalds, there is no ransom involved, no amber alert is initiated, and no one goes to jail for a crime.  I am sure the local law enforcement is aware of the activities.

If kidnapping did apply then these places would call themselves kidnapping services.

I think where many people may be getting confused is that is this was done to an adult then it would be considered kidnapping.  But the people would be put in jail for this because you need a persons consent.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 13, 2010, 10:36:22 PM
Although it may appear that I set up this thread to bash people (survivors).  I really think this is an issue with credibility and if the language was brought more in line with everyday definitions then reports of abuse would be taken more seriously here on fornits and else where in my opinion.

By pointing this out I think changes would help the credibility of fornits.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 13, 2010, 10:51:37 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Another derail thread created solely to tarnish survivors. It's sad really.  Specifically when it originates from someone who takes great pride in pernicious perfidy. The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable.

According to who....?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 13, 2010, 10:56:54 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
If someone was dragged from their home in shackles in the middle of the night how could that not be described as kidnapping? Just 'cause it's a kid I guess. you could never get away with "transporting" an adult.
Not much of a lie or an exaggeration.

Because if the child was threatening and tormenting his family to the point of they were seriously scared for their safety, then it is not kidnapping.
Hey, try this 2 cops walk in his bedroom snatch his butt drag him to the squad car throw his ass in the car and cart him off to jail. Is that kidnapping. No it is called going to jail, well call this going to a program.
Ya know not every story is a picture you have in your head.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 13, 2010, 10:58:31 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"

  Do you know why people on fornits use kidnapping, Gulag etc. to describe things and events where no one else does?




...


Because we, unlike you, have all had the opportunity to examine at least one of these places up close and personally from the inside.  These places that you advocate for so tirelessly.  You say our accounts are "fantasies that do not exist in the real world", but that is wrong.  They do not exist TO the real world and that is what we want to change.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 14, 2010, 12:14:34 AM
John why dont you instead of just making vauge blanket accusations, provide a specific post of something you believe a survivor said that was either a lie or an exaggeration.

Your generalizations accomplish nothing.
Title: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Ursus on October 14, 2010, 01:44:08 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Deprogrammed on October 14, 2010, 05:04:12 AM
Whooter,
Find one post where you think I embellished and lied. Bring it on! Let's examine it.
-DP
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 07:01:13 AM
I dismiss the premise of this thread based on the OP's credibility problems.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

Statements like the one above make me dismiss this thread out of hand.  Now, if some credible poster wants to start a credible topic, I'd be glad to weigh in with my thoughts.  This thread is desperate attention-whoring and deflection from Whooter's really bad week that culminated in his confession that he made up his fake family which he does not have.  Where do you go from there, really?

"Survivors lying" hasn't been established by any credible person, so the rest of this thread is fluff.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 09:11:12 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"

I was kidnapped and held captive in a Gulag where I was abused 24/7. The place should be shut down. Every program is abusive and performs brainwashing on people. Not one child has ever benefited from a program. If they tell you this then they must be brainwashed themselves.

Citation please.  I don't recall seeing that post.  Who posted it?
Title: TheWho
Post by: Froderik on October 14, 2010, 09:39:25 AM
Fucking liar.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 09:45:49 AM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"

I was kidnapped and held captive in a Gulag where I was abused 24/7. The place should be shut down. Every program is abusive and performs brainwashing on people. Not one child has ever benefited from a program. If they tell you this then they must be brainwashed themselves.

Citation please.  I don't recall seeing that post.  Who posted it?

Its an example of the language used here on fornits, Anne.  I am trying to make a point about the descriptive words used on fornits... i.e Gulag, Kidnapping,Brainwashing etc.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Dysfunction Junction on October 14, 2010, 09:49:14 AM
Correction, Anne, it's a bunch of BS made up by Whooter that was never posted here.  Another fabricated story from the congenital liar Whooter.
Title: Re: TheWho
Post by: Dysfunction Junction on October 14, 2010, 09:50:49 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

Quote from: "Froderik"
Fucking liar.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I admit that

Glad we got to the bottom of it.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 09:52:16 AM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.


I think yours is a good example, Ursus.  Imagine a kid writing or talking to an edcon or anyone after returning from a program.  The child says:

Response “A”
My time at XYZ Program was terrible.  The intake process was humiliating because I was required to disrobe and change into the schools uniforms in front of another staff member.  Most of the staff were nice but this one guy Robert Newly would scream at me and forced me to miss several meals.  He made me uncomfortable with some of his contacts which I felt were inappropriate. The school wasn’t bad overall and I managed to move ahead with my studies.  The food wasn’t great.......

Response “B”
After I was kidnapped and transported to the Gulag where I was incarcerated for 16 months I was systematically tortured and abused by the prison guards, starved and held in isolation.  I underwent extensive brainwashing and now have PTSD.

Response “A” would raise a concern and the person hearing this would call immediately to inquire about this Robert Newly and report the findings.  Response “A” was communicated well enough to be believed as credible.

Response “B” would be treated as a sarcastic immature response indicating that the child never bothered to apply themselves and still seeking attention.  I think we can agree that the abuse allegations would not be taken seriously for good reason.

I don’t think you should blame the Edcon for pooh-poohing the credibility of Responder “B”.  A big part of the reason some survivors are not believed is because of the way they communicate in my opinion.  I think listening to many posters speak here on fornits confirms that this language is used very often.  If survivors really were concerned about credibility they would address this issue or at least be open to the possibilities.



...
Title: Re: TheWho
Post by: Froderik on October 14, 2010, 09:53:41 AM
Quote from: "Dysfunction Junction"
Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

Quote from: "Froderik"
Fucking liar.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I admit that

Glad we got to the bottom of it.

 :roflmao:  :rofl:  :rocker:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Dysfunction Junction on October 14, 2010, 09:57:04 AM
I wonder if there are any documented instances of survivors creating fake families so they can share the fake family "program success" with potential marks?  I know this has happened with a program "parent" (not sure if Whooter really is a parent to any non"fabricated" children) here, but I have never heard anyone accusing a survivor of such blatant, self-serving lies used to push an agenda.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

Personally, I'd have to see something that rises to this level even to give this topic any thought.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 09:59:26 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"

I was kidnapped and held captive in a Gulag where I was abused 24/7. The place should be shut down. Every program is abusive and performs brainwashing on people. Not one child has ever benefited from a program. If they tell you this then they must be brainwashed themselves.

Citation please.  I don't recall seeing that post.  Who posted it?

Its an example of the language used here on fornits, Anne.  I am trying to make a point about the descriptive words used on fornits... i.e Gulag, Kidnapping,Brainwashing etc.



So, no such post exists.  Got it.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 14, 2010, 10:16:08 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.


I think yours is a good example, Ursus.  Imagine a kid writing or talking to an edcon or anyone after returning from a program.  The child says:

Response “A”
My time at XYZ Program was terrible.  The intake process was humiliating because I was required to disrobe and change into the schools uniforms in front of another staff member.  Most of the staff were nice but this one guy Robert Newly would scream at me and forced me to miss several meals.  He made me uncomfortable with some of his contacts which I felt were inappropriate. The school wasn’t bad overall and I managed to move ahead with my studies.  The food wasn’t great.......

Response “B”
After I was kidnapped and transported to the Gulag where I was incarcerated for 16 months I was systematically tortured and abused by the prison guards, starved and held in isolation.  I underwent extensive brainwashing and now have PTSD.

Response “A” would raise a concern and the person hearing this would call immediately to inquire about this Robert Newly and report the findings.  Response “A” was communicated well enough to be believed as credible.

Response “B” would be treated as a sarcastic immature response indicating that the child never bothered to apply themselves and still seeking attention.  I think we can agree that the abuse allegations would not be taken seriously for good reason.

I don’t think you should blame the Edcon for pooh-poohing the credibility of Responder “B”.  A big part of the reason some survivors are not believed is because of the way they communicate in my opinion.  I think listening to many posters speak here on fornits confirms that this language is used very often.  If survivors really were concerned about credibility they would address this issue or at least be open to the possibilities.



...


Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?
You have no basis for discounting our accounts except that they seem unlikely to you.  We do not care what seems unlikely to you because we all believe that you make your money off of these places and therefore have solid financial reasons for attempting to discredit us.  The whole LGAT treatment model is abusive.  In the program I was in, ALL of the staff was abusive, because that is what they were trained to be.  We were always hungry, always scared.  Only one way out, become one with those who are abusing me.  How is this different from brainwashing?
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 10:34:45 AM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"


Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?
You have no basis for discounting our accounts except that they seem unlikely to you.  We do not care what seems unlikely to you because we all believe that you make your money off of these places and therefore have solid financial reasons for attempting to discredit us.  The whole LGAT treatment model is abusive.  In the program I was in, ALL of the staff was abusive, because that is what they were trained to be.  We were always hungry, always scared.  Only one way out, become one with those who are abusing me.  How is this different from brainwashing?

If you speak to fellow survivors or, as Ursus pointed out to edcons or parents, survivor stories are tossed aside as not being very credible.  This isnt my fault (I know you would like to blame me).  I am trying to take a look at why survivor stories are not credible and as I pointed out I think it is at least partially due to the way people here communicate.  It comes across as exaggerated or fantasy of some sort.  

You really think a police officer is going to take you seriously when you speak of Gulags, kidnappings and brainwashing.  If a person were truly abused they would try their best to communicate this to the authorities not use fantasy mixed with reality.  The police can easily check to see if there have been any kids kidnapped recently and conclude you are lying. So why blame the edcons and police for not believing you?



...
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 10:42:51 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
If you speak to fellow survivors or, as Ursus pointed out to edcons or parents, survivor stories are tossed aside as not being very credible.  This isnt my fault (I know you would like to blame me).  I am trying to take a look at why survivor stories are not credible and as I pointed out I think it is at least partially due to the way people here communicate.  It comes across as exaggerated or fantasy of some sort.  

Only to those who have been conditioned by programs to respond to criticism of them the way you have.

Quote
You really think a police officer is going to take you seriously when you speak of Gulags, kidnappings and brainwashing.

Back when I was in?.....no.  Now?  Maybe.....and I think the cops are smart enough to understand that the people using those words are making....wait for it.....analogies and metaphors.


 
Quote
If a person were truly abused they would try their best to communicate this to the authorities not use fantasy mixed with reality.

It's not fantasy.  The description of gulags actually does closely mirror many of these so called "troubled teen" institutions.  You don't like that particular descriptor, but it's not that far off, unfortunately.


Quote
 The police can easily check to see if there have been any kids kidnapped recently and conclude you are lying. So why blame the edcons and police for not believing you?

Well, very often when a program moves into town they set up meetings with various local officials and condition even them to not believe the kids.  And the kids start off 'in the hole', so to speak, by being labeled "troubled" anyway.   So, again.....kids have zero recourse when they are being abused.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Froderik on October 14, 2010, 10:54:46 AM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

Well said.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 11:11:28 AM
Quote from: "Froderik"
Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

But if you are trying to communicate with people who have not been through one of these places then your vocabulary looks foolish.  Amongst yourselves it seems to work fine, but if you are looking for credibility from people who have never been in a program you need to use different words unless you want to be viewed as childish.



...
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 11:14:37 AM
Quote from: "Froderik"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

Well said.
:tup:
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 11:34:51 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Froderik"
Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

But if you are trying to communicate with people who have not been through one of these places then your vocabulary looks foolish.  Amongst yourselves it seems to work fine, but if you are looking for credibility from people who have never been in a program you need to use different words unless you want to be viewed as childish.


Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: shaggys on October 14, 2010, 12:15:10 PM
I use the term brainwashing to describe what happened to me at Straight inc because that is exactly what happened. I was forced to sit in a chair and stare straight ahead for 12 to 18 hours a day. Even moving my eyes away from the wall for a moment would invite harsh confrontation by staff/group. The only movement allowed was to turn your head to face the person speaking. The conversation in group all day long revolved around how awful we were as "druggies" and how only Straight inc could save us from ourselves. I was 15 and had only smoked a little pot and had a few beers in my whole life up to that point. I was taught that i would die, go insane or be locked in jail if I didn't fully commit myself to Straights' dogma. Every aspect of my life was completely controlled - eating, washing, sleeping, speaking, - everything. After month upon month of this I started believing what Straight was telling me. Eventually I believed EVERYTHING they told me.
It is my understanding that many programs today still use Straight-like methods on kids. It is brainwashing and I will continue to use that term to describe it.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 12:24:04 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.

But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  I have heard many here state that no one believes them when they tell their story and I am pointing out a huge reason why.  



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 12:38:20 PM
Quote from: "shaggys"
I use the term brainwashing to describe what happened to me at Straight inc because that is exactly what happened. I was forced to sit in a chair and stare straight ahead for 12 to 18 hours a day. Even moving my eyes away from the wall for a moment would invite harsh confrontation by staff/group. The only movement allowed was to turn your head to face the person speaking. The conversation in group all day long revolved around how awful we were as "druggies" and how only Straight inc could save us from ourselves. I was 15 and had only smoked a little pot and had a few beers in my whole life up to that point. I was taught that i would die, go insane or be locked in jail if I didn't fully commit myself to Straights' dogma. Every aspect of my life was completely controlled - eating, washing, sleeping, speaking, - everything. After month upon month of this I started believing what Straight was telling me. Eventually I believed EVERYTHING they told me.
It is my understanding that many programs today still use Straight-like methods on kids. It is brainwashing and I will continue to use that term to describe it.

Thanks, shaggys.  This is a horrific description.  I think we also have to bear in mind that because Whooter makes money from programs he has a vested interest in denying any abuse and portraying survivors as "liars."  But, as we all have recently learned, the only confirmed liar here is Whooter who recently admitted to making up a family and a family story of "program success."  I wouldn't worry about convincing this goon about anything because one, in the big picture he's absolutely, utterly meaningless to any of our lives and two, this entire thread is just his way to distract the conversation from his admitted and proven lies (all pro-program and anti-survivor, BTW).

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

Seriously, is anyone here really thinking we have to convince an abject liar like this guy about anything?  I sure don't.  The guy who made up his entire family, complete with fake kids, doesn't require any response about our own credibility.  "I fabricated a son."  For fuck's sake, this guy is not worth explaining anything to.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 12:50:23 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.

But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  

That wouldn't include "the likes of you", which is why I stated it the way I did.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 01:00:04 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.

But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  

That wouldn't include "the likes of you", which is why I stated it the way I did.

That does include me, also, yes.  Sometimes it is difficult to differentiate between the fantasy part of the post and the reality.  If the child wasnt really kidnapped then was he really abused?  Do you see what I mean?



...
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Ursus on October 14, 2010, 01:03:12 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.
But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  I have heard many here state that no one believes them when they tell their story and I am pointing out a huge reason why.
Personally, I don't think a whole lot of folk will EVER believe these stories no matter what language is used. Those people will only start waking up when they hear the stories from their peers, other parents, co-workers and other folk personally known, and/or the sheer magnitude of the phenomenon accumulated over time. Hearing opinions from savvy experts can't hurt either.

All in all, I don't think the choice in words makes a huge difference. Any group of people dealing with a subset of the human experience over a period of time develops their own vernacular. Most people realize that.

But... "clear communication" wasn't really your point in starting this thread, now was it? Your point was that "survivors need to lie." This whole discussion 'bout "word usage" sounds like yet another of your obfuscating smokescreens.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 01:04:25 PM
Was he really a parent?  Did he really have a kid?  These are good questions that are answered by

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son
Quote from: "Whooter"
I admit that

When trying to differentiate between fact and fantasy, the first thing we need to do is remove the obvious fantasy from the equation, that is, we dismiss everything Whooter has to say on the subject because he made up a family and kids that he never had.  Then we can have a real discussion with real, not "fabricated," people.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 01:07:51 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.
But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  I have heard many here state that no one believes them when they tell their story and I am pointing out a huge reason why.
Personally, I don't think a whole lot of folk will EVER believe these stories no matter what language is used. Those people will only start waking up when they hear the stories from their peers, other parents, co-workers and other folk personally known, and/or the sheer magnitude of the phenomenon accumulated over time. Hearing opinions from savvy experts can't hurt either.

All in all, I don't think the choice in words makes a huge difference. Any group of people dealing with a subset of the human experience over a period of time develops their own vernacular. Most people realize that.

But... "clear communication" wasn't really your point in starting this thread, now was it? Your point was that "survivors need to lie." This whole discussion 'bout "word usage" sounds like yet another of your obfuscating smokescreens.


BINGO!

 :notworthy:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 01:17:58 PM
Quote from: "shaggys"
I use the term brainwashing to describe what happened to me at Straight inc because that is exactly what happened. I was forced to sit in a chair and stare straight ahead for 12 to 18 hours a day. Even moving my eyes away from the wall for a moment would invite harsh confrontation by staff/group. The only movement allowed was to turn your head to face the person speaking. The conversation in group all day long revolved around how awful we were as "druggies" and how only Straight inc could save us from ourselves. I was 15 and had only smoked a little pot and had a few beers in my whole life up to that point. I was taught that i would die, go insane or be locked in jail if I didn't fully commit myself to Straights' dogma. Every aspect of my life was completely controlled - eating, washing, sleeping, speaking, - everything. After month upon month of this I started believing what Straight was telling me. Eventually I believed EVERYTHING they told me.
It is my understanding that many programs today still use Straight-like methods on kids. It is brainwashing and I will continue to use that term to describe it.

That’s an awful experience, Shaggys.  I have heard similar stories from other people from straight here also.  Not sure it classifies as brainwashing but I would guess it is pretty dam close.  But, to me, your story is believable because you took the time to explain the details of the abuse that took place and the name of the program.  If you had said you were kidnapped, held in a Gulag and brainwashed by prison guards I may not feel the same way about the credibility of your post.

As far as similarities to other programs, I have heard the same thing from posters like Anne Bonney.  My response is that you will always see similarities between programs because they are buildings that have lots of teenagers in them who are at-risk (or thought to be at-risk).  If someone told you a staff member  at their program made them sit in a chair and stare at the wall because they broke a minor infraction.  This would be similar to your experience at straight, but it may not be abusive.  The kids punishment may be short, (not 18 hours ).

So seeing similarities doesn’t mean the programs are the same or are abusive.  I know first hand that several programs do not do this.  But the brainwash term may apply in your case.  I couldnt imagine having to endure something like that and I am sorry you had to go through it at such a young age.



...
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 01:58:26 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Personally, I don't think a whole lot of folk will EVER believe these stories no matter what language is used. Those people will only start waking up when they hear the stories from their peers, other parents, co-workers and other folk personally known, and/or the sheer magnitude of the phenomenon accumulated over time. Hearing opinions from savvy experts can't hurt either.

I agree that there will always be people who will be closed minded and just refuse to listen.  But a big step in getting people to listen is to try and make your story as credible as possible.  Once you start talking about kidnappings and Gulags a lot of people will sense the story is a bit of a fantasy.  But if you look at how Shaggys explained his/her time in straight it seemed very credible to me, even with the inference of the brainwashing.

Quote
All in all, I don't think the choice in words makes a huge difference. Any group of people dealing with a subset of the human experience over a period of time develops their own vernacular. Most people realize that.
So this subset language is intended to be used between one another i.e.  survivor to survivor.  When the people involved in the GAO investigation were discussing the problems with these various programs they did not use kidnapping, Gulag, prison guards etc.  They used language which would present itself as the most credible in communicating these places and the events that occurred (because that is their job).  Why didnt they use the language that fornits uses?  I think the answer is that it would not be factual.


Quote
But... "clear communication" wasn't really your point in starting this thread, now was it? Your point was that "survivors need to lie." This whole discussion 'bout "word usage" sounds like yet another of your obfuscating smokescreens.
Clear communication was not my original point, you are right, we have drifted from the initial intent but I think it has been a good conversation to this point.  Covering the” language” was a natural progression of the topic discussion.  So I dont view it as a derailment or veering off topic.

So to Urus’s point if many of the survivors know that people who have never been inside a program do not speak this way (or use these words) then why do they embellish the language to make it appear that they were victims of kidnapping and brainwashing, torture etc.?  Why not tell it like it is like Shaggys demonstrated and lay out the facts?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 02:37:35 PM
Quote from: "The gatekeeper"
In case there was confusion:  Keep the title of the thread to "Why do Survivors need to Lie?" and speak your mind.



They don't.  The reality of what's done to them/us is bad enough.  Whooter started this thread with the sole intention of making it appear that survivors routinely lie about being abused.  We don't.  Let it die the death that is Danny's "authentic self" thread.  He's talking to himself, which is what Whooter should be doing here by starting off a thread with such a loaded question.

 :feedtrolls:  :fuckoff:
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 02:48:12 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

Well, then keep reading, because I am a program survivor and I have been listening to people like yourself whore for attention for over 30 years.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 02:52:27 PM
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
I dismiss the premise of this thread based on the OP's credibility problems.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

Statements like the one above make me dismiss this thread out of hand.  Now, if some credible poster wants to start a credible topic, I'd be glad to weigh in with my thoughts.  This thread is desperate attention-whoring and deflection from Whooter's really bad week that culminated in his confession that he made up his fake family which he does not have.  Where do you go from there, really?

"Survivors lying" hasn't been established by any credible person, so the rest of this thread is fluff.

Well you can dismiss anything you like, you have a room full of zealots on your side but what you can't take away is my experience first hand. I have been listening to freaks like you for 30 years, you never get any better. If anyone is a attention whore or creative at deflecting issues away, well come on my friend, you win the "award".
Title: Recycle Bin
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 02:54:56 PM
Quote from: "Froderik"
Fucking liar.

Gee, I wonder if this is acceptable. Everyone has lied.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 02:55:23 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "The gatekeeper"
In case there was confusion:  Keep the title of the thread to "Why do Survivors need to Lie?" and speak your mind.



They don't.  The reality of what's done to them/us is bad enough.  Whooter started this thread with the sole intention of making it appear that survivors routinely lie about being abused.  We don't.  Let it die the death that is Danny's "authentic self" thread.  He's talking to himself, which is what Whooter should be doing here by starting off a thread with such a loaded question.

 :feedtrolls:  :fuckoff:

Anne, why are you trying to invalidate the thread by assuming you know my intentions?  Every group has people who lie.  I dont think I could name one that doesnt.  But not everyone within the group lies.  Shaggy demonstrated that he could show us he/she was abused at Straight without having to resort to exaggerations or lying. Do you think you could communicate your time at straight and what happened to you without exaggerating?  Do you think you could address a panel of senators and explain what happened to you without embellishing the facts for drama effect?

What is the advantage of someone saying they were kidnapped when everyone knows they were taken to the program via an escort service?  Does this gain sympathy?  add drama?  gain more attention?  To fit in better at fornits?  Would police or the GAO use this description?  

Do you see what I am saying?  I am not saying all survivors lie but trying to understand why many survivors try to trick us into believing they were kidnapped or brainwashed or tortured etc..



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 02:57:59 PM
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Whooter"
But a big step in getting people to listen is to try and make your story as credible as possible.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

 ::)

Sorry, folks, but I won't be lectured to about "lying" by this guy.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 02:58:39 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.


I think yours is a good example, Ursus.  Imagine a kid writing or talking to an edcon or anyone after returning from a program.  The child says:

Response “A”
My time at XYZ Program was terrible.  The intake process was humiliating because I was required to disrobe and change into the schools uniforms in front of another staff member.  Most of the staff were nice but this one guy Robert Newly would scream at me and forced me to miss several meals.  He made me uncomfortable with some of his contacts which I felt were inappropriate. The school wasn’t bad overall and I managed to move ahead with my studies.  The food wasn’t great.......

Response “B”
After I was kidnapped and transported to the Gulag where I was incarcerated for 16 months I was systematically tortured and abused by the prison guards, starved and held in isolation.  I underwent extensive brainwashing and now have PTSD.

Response “A” would raise a concern and the person hearing this would call immediately to inquire about this Robert Newly and report the findings.  Response “A” was communicated well enough to be believed as credible.

Response “B” would be treated as a sarcastic immature response indicating that the child never bothered to apply themselves and still seeking attention.  I think we can agree that the abuse allegations would not be taken seriously for good reason.

I don’t think you should blame the Edcon for pooh-poohing the credibility of Responder “B”.  A big part of the reason some survivors are not believed is because of the way they communicate in my opinion.  I think listening to many posters speak here on fornits confirms that this language is used very often.  If survivors really were concerned about credibility they would address this issue or at least be open to the possibilities.



...


Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?
You have no basis for discounting our accounts except that they seem unlikely to you.  We do not care what seems unlikely to you because we all believe that you make your money off of these places and therefore have solid financial reasons for attempting to discredit us.  The whole LGAT treatment model is abusive.  In the program I was in, ALL of the staff was abusive, because that is what they were trained to be.  We were always hungry, always scared.  Only one way out, become one with those who are abusing me.  How is this different from brainwashing?

No, all of you have not even come close to going through a gulag, please. Elan 4 was the closet to a actual prison within a treatment center setting and not one of you were there.
So please take your embellishments and reconsider what it is you are trying to say.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 03:05:04 PM
OK, well we got one example now.  DannyB II is a survivor and a liar.  That's one.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 03:08:15 PM
Quote from: "shaggys"
I use the term brainwashing to describe what happened to me at Straight inc because that is exactly what happened. I was forced to sit in a chair and stare straight ahead for 12 to 18 hours a day. Even moving my eyes away from the wall for a moment would invite harsh confrontation by staff/group. The only movement allowed was to turn your head to face the person speaking. The conversation in group all day long revolved around how awful we were as "druggies" and how only Straight inc could save us from ourselves. I was 15 and had only smoked a little pot and had a few beers in my whole life up to that point. I was taught that i would die, go insane or be locked in jail if I didn't fully commit myself to Straights' dogma. Every aspect of my life was completely controlled - eating, washing, sleeping, speaking, - everything. After month upon month of this I started believing what Straight was telling me. Eventually I believed EVERYTHING they told me.
It is my understanding that many programs today still use Straight-like methods on kids. It is brainwashing and I will continue to use that term to describe it.

This story right here is a embellishment, of course you will move your eyes, every group you were in was not always about you and the focus was not always on drugs.
Listen in case you did not know, it is not Straights fault you only smoked one joint, drank one beer, kissed one girl and stayed out late one night. Some one gave Straight the impression you were a screw-up so you were placed there. Now if you want to blame Straight for the type of treatment you received, fine but take up why you were placed there with the proper folks.
I didn't believe everything Elan told me, I didn't buy into there concepts of treatment and I wasn't brainwashed.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 03:12:54 PM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "shaggys"
I use the term brainwashing to describe what happened to me at Straight inc because that is exactly what happened. I was forced to sit in a chair and stare straight ahead for 12 to 18 hours a day. Even moving my eyes away from the wall for a moment would invite harsh confrontation by staff/group. The only movement allowed was to turn your head to face the person speaking. The conversation in group all day long revolved around how awful we were as "druggies" and how only Straight inc could save us from ourselves. I was 15 and had only smoked a little pot and had a few beers in my whole life up to that point. I was taught that i would die, go insane or be locked in jail if I didn't fully commit myself to Straights' dogma. Every aspect of my life was completely controlled - eating, washing, sleeping, speaking, - everything. After month upon month of this I started believing what Straight was telling me. Eventually I believed EVERYTHING they told me.
It is my understanding that many programs today still use Straight-like methods on kids. It is brainwashing and I will continue to use that term to describe it.

This story right here is a embellishment, of course you will move your eyes, every group you were in was not always about you and the focus was not always on drugs.
Listen in case you did not know, it is not Straights fault you only smoked one joint, drank one beer, kissed one girl and stayed out late one night. Some one gave Straight the impression you were a screw-up so you were placed there. Now if you want to blame Straight for the type of treatment you received, fine but take up why you were placed there with the proper folks.
I didn't believe everything Elan told me, I didn't buy into there concepts of treatment and I wasn't brainwashed.


I was there and would state under oath that what Shaggy's posted is EXACTLY what I experienced when I was in Straight.  I don't give a flying fuck what DannyBoi or Whooter think or how much they froth at the mouth.

Like I said DannyBoi......go back to talking to yourself.  I actually do get a kick out of your trying to start salient threads, only to be ignored.  :rofl:  Then you go back and talk to yourself.......as it should be.  :twofinger:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 03:13:23 PM
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Whooter"
But a big step in getting people to listen is to try and make your story as credible as possible.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

 ::)

Sorry, folks, but I won't be lectured to about "lying" by this guy.

Watchful Yeoman,  I dont expect everyone to agree with my point of view.  I have never spent time in a program myself so I am far from an expert in this area.  Instead of taking shots at everyone and getting mad why dont you give your opinion and join the conversation?  I would be interested to know your take on the subject.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 03:16:10 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
I have never spent time in a program myself  


So you really have nothing to add to the discussion and just enjoy starting threads with loaded quesstions.  Gotcha.  


Until you have some experience being on the inside of one of these shitpits, we'll chalk your opinions up to being what they are.  Marketing damage control.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 03:17:57 PM
My take on the subject is that nobody should bother answering you, of all people, about lying.  Nobody here should be lectured by a liar such as yourself about lying.

You've never been in a program, we know that.  You never had a son at Second Nature, we know that, too.  But you have lied about both, posing a program kid and "fabricating" a child you never had.  Why the hell should anyone humor you about lying?
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 03:18:21 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.
But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  I have heard many here state that no one believes them when they tell their story and I am pointing out a huge reason why.
Personally, I don't think a whole lot of folk will EVER believe these stories no matter what language is used. Those people will only start waking up when they hear the stories from their peers, other parents, co-workers and other folk personally known, and/or the sheer magnitude of the phenomenon accumulated over time. Hearing opinions from savvy experts can't hurt either.

All in all, I don't think the choice in words makes a huge difference. Any group of people dealing with a subset of the human experience over a period of time develops their own vernacular. Most people realize that.

But... "clear communication" wasn't really your point in starting this thread, now was it? Your point was that "survivors need to lie." This whole discussion 'bout "word usage" sounds like yet another of your obfuscating smokescreens.

They won't believe them Ursus because most people can not relate (no experience) and the extreme vernacular used here is hard to grasp. What peers are you talking about, this isn't what I would consider mainstream folks.  :D  
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 03:20:51 PM
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Whooter"
But a big step in getting people to listen is to try and make your story as credible as possible.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

 ::)

Sorry, folks, but I won't be lectured to about "lying" by this guy.

My friend you are not above this conversation by a long shot.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 03:21:03 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


I was there and would state under oath that what Shaggy's posted is EXACTLY what I experienced when I was in Straight.  I don't give a flying fuck what DannyBoi or Whooter think or how much they froth at the mouth.

Anne if you read my response to Shaggys post you would have seen that I thought it was very credible.  I didnt need to see his hand on the bible to sway my opinion.  Sometimes the way a person presents themselves and the language they use can assist in adding credibility to their story.  Some people come across as credible because of the words they chose and a sincerity in their approach.

This plays in to what confuses me.  When faced with an opportunity to be honest and just tell the truth some people will embellish and use words for the purpose of fooling someone into believing something that didnt happen.  If the truth (in itself) is bad in its own accord then why embellish it and risk being viewed as a liar?  Do you see what I mean?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 03:23:18 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
When faced with an opportunity to be honest and just tell the truth some people will embellish and use words for the purpose of fooling someone into believing something that didnt happen.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

I only see Whooter doing this.  I have yet to see a single example of a survivor doing this.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 14, 2010, 03:26:32 PM
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Whooter"
When faced with an opportunity to be honest and just tell the truth some people will embellish and use words for the purpose of fooling someone into believing something that didnt happen.

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

I only see Whooter doing this.  I have yet to see a single example of a survivor doing this.

Maybe Whooter can explain to the rest of us why he has done this repeatedly since 2005.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 03:41:46 PM
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
My take on the subject is that nobody should bother answering you, of all people, about lying.  Nobody here should be lectured by a liar such as yourself about lying.

You've never been in a program, we know that.  You never had a son at Second Nature, we know that, too.  But you have lied about both, posing a program kid and "fabricating" a child you never had.  Why the hell should anyone humor you about lying?

and you have lied continuously about your interpretation of what Whooter said. You have no proof of intention so you make one up to explain your prejudice.
Listen you can't really believe anyone with any sense is taking you seriously, Anne is a clerk of all things, come on. So she can spell and write a sentence or two but as far as credibility, please. She has proven herself to be a loon.
Outside of your 6 or 7 folks everyone else thinks your a joke. This whole Whooter show, has been played a dozen times, your show is no different.
Folks come and read, see the bullshit about Whooter as they have seen for years now and they get turned off and move on. One thing they do notice is DJ has changed his name, one more time. So you keep up the legacy of sock puppetry here on fornits.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 14, 2010, 03:42:14 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


I was there and would state under oath that what Shaggy's posted is EXACTLY what I experienced when I was in Straight.  I don't give a flying fuck what DannyBoi or Whooter think or how much they froth at the mouth.

Anne if you read my response to Shaggys post you would have seen that I thought it was very credible.  I didnt need to see his hand on the bible to sway my opinion.  Sometimes the way a person presents themselves and the language they use can assist in adding credibility to their story.  Some people come across as credible because of the words they chose and a sincerity in their approach.

My response was to DannyBoi saying that it was an embellishment.

Quote
This plays in to what confuses me.  When faced with an opportunity to be honest and just tell the truth some people will embellish and use words for the purpose of fooling someone into believing something that didnt happen.  If the truth (in itself) is bad in its own accord then why embellish it and risk being viewed as a liar?  Do you see what I mean?

They don't embellish, that's your opinion of it.  There's no need to embellish it when the actual truth is quite bad enough.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: shaggys on October 14, 2010, 03:49:55 PM
I wouldn't have a reason to lie about any of what I saw and went through personally at Straight inc. The truth is more than enough. I have a son who is the same age now that I was when I went into the program. Sometimes I look at him and I think about how I must have looked at that age, sitting in that miserable group. Thats the part that makes you just wanna break down and cry about the whole thing. I can't do that shit though. I have a life with people depending on me so I gotta maintain.
We sat in group and we stared straight ahead. On the wall directly in front of the group were the 7 steps. The only reading allowed.
If you moved your eyes to glance to the side or worse yet, maybe you ever so slightly turned your head then the person sitting behind you was expected to immediately put their index finger into the side of your head just above the ear and drag that finger along the side of your scalp until it ended up by your eye. Go ahead, try it at home and see how it feels. This is just one of the bizarre little abuse rituals that were part of everyday life in that program.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 03:55:04 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

They don't embellish, that's your opinion of it.  There's no need to embellish it when the actual truth is quite bad enough.

That is my point if they were escorted by an escort service why not just say that?  If that in itself is bad enough why embellish it to say you were kidnapped?  Are there any reports which support that these kids were kidnapped and amber alerts were put out on them?  Are there any trials in progress or concluded?

Do you see what I mean?  It might have "felt" like they were kidnapped, (that I can understand) but in reality they were not. There is just no evidence to support this that I have seen to date.   Unless this can be supported somehow this is more than just my opinion.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 14, 2010, 05:47:05 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

They don't embellish, that's your opinion of it.  There's no need to embellish it when the actual truth is quite bad enough.

That is my point if they were escorted by an escort service why not just say that?  If that in itself is bad enough why embellish it to say you were kidnapped?  Are there any reports which support that these kids were kidnapped and amber alerts were put out on them?  Are there any trials in progress or concluded?

Do you see what I mean?  It might have "felt" like they were kidnapped, (that I can understand) but in reality they were not. There is just no evidence to support this that I have seen to date.   Unless this can be supported somehow this is more than just my opinion.



...

Unfortunately, the people who would ordinarily initiate the amber alert are the ones who called the kidnappers.  Oh, sorry Whooter, the armed goons who don't work for any law enforcement agency who burst into teenagers rooms in the middle of the night to handcuff them and take them into captivity.  Doesn't sound nearly as friendly as "escort service", does it?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 05:51:48 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Whooter, everybody lies.  What is wrong with you?  I lie myself if people are not listening to me or I am trying to get peoples attention on a topic.  It doesnt mean that I lie about everything.

Shady, I understand this.  But the problem is how can the readers differentiate between your lies and the truth.  How do we know what is real or not?  This is the trouble that posters like yourself pose to us readers.  What we suppose to believe?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 06:12:41 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"

Unfortunately, the people who would ordinarily initiate the amber alert are the ones who called the kidnappers.  Oh, sorry Whooter, the armed goons who don't work for any law enforcement agency who burst into teenagers rooms in the middle of the night to handcuff them and take them into captivity.  Doesn't sound nearly as friendly as "escort service", does it?

So why dont people just come out and say it, ShadyAcres?  
"Escort Service sounds too friendly and I like to embellish it up a bit to try to describe how it really felt, just like Jim did with his gun shot wound."

Why not tell the truth and say escort service and then go on to describe how harsh the process was and how you were handcuffed and tossed into a car?  Why lie and try to fool people into believing that you were actually kidnapped?  Eventually they will find out that you were not kidnapped and then your credibility will be jeopardized.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: none-ya on October 14, 2010, 07:26:45 PM
It's kidnapping when there is (and I believe psy addressed this) no due process for the minor. No lawyer. No phone call. No miranda. No rights at all. I don't know about in other states,  But a minor here, has none of these rights even when arrested by the police. No bail  Nothing.It's  like saying the repo man isn't a professional car thief. It's legal. The police should be handling these jobs. Or at least someone with more accountability. than these weekend worriors and wanna' be's. If it walks like a duck......
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 07:53:18 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
It's kidnapping when there is (and I believe psy addressed this) no due process for the minor. No lawyer. No phone call. No miranda. No rights at all. I don't know about in other states,  But a minor here, has none of these rights even when arrested by the police. No bail  Nothing.It's  like saying the repo man isn't a professional car thief. It's legal. The police should be handling these jobs. Or at least someone with more accountability. than these weekend worriors and wanna' be's. If it walks like a duck......

I never read this, do you have a link of any type?  So if the child is forced to get in the car and go visit their grandmother it is considered Kidnapping?  If the parents force the child onto the school bus it would be kidnapping?  I dont think so, the courts would be overwhelmed.  The escort service has the parents sign over the right to transport the child to his/her destination.  So legally the escort service can take the child across state lines.  Correct me if I am wrong but I dont think the child has any rights on this until they reach age 18.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Froderik on October 14, 2010, 08:23:44 PM
"I always lie...and I'm always right!"
-J.R. "Bob" Dobbs
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: none-ya on October 14, 2010, 08:42:17 PM
If the minor is not under arrest, then why can't he just say no! I ain't goin'. Because he has no rights to start with. If he dosen't go with the transporter, or won't get on the school bus, the the parents should call the cops.By the time it got to court, maybe he could get a lawyer or some sort of advocate.  to represent his(or her) wishes. problem is, kids don't have money. Nobody is lining up to represent children. It ain't safe to be a kid anywhere, anymore. And until things change. they'll just keep lining up (for a fee) to take the kids away. = LEGAL KIDNAPPING!
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 09:22:44 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Another derail thread created solely to tarnish survivors. It's sad really.  Specifically when it originates from someone who takes great pride in pernicious perfidy. The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable.

Jeesh, Samara, why have we not heard you complain like this when posts were being written about others. I hate to tell you but you folks are not above lying and down right manipulative reactions.

Your quote:
"The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable".

My quote:
How about this characterization, just basic garden variety folks. See, not all the drama.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 09:33:22 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
It's kidnapping when there is (and I believe psy addressed this) no due process for the minor. No lawyer. No phone call. No miranda. No rights at all. I don't know about in other states,  But a minor here, has none of these rights even when arrested by the police. No bail  Nothing.It's  like saying the repo man isn't a professional car thief. It's legal. The police should be handling these jobs. Or at least someone with more accountability. than these weekend worriors and wanna' be's. If it walks like a duck......

So if the judicial system says it is not kidnapping, why are you calling it kidnapping. If escort services are legal why are you saying there not.
So because Psy says it is kidnapping because there is no due process, no lawyer, no phone call, no miranda, that means it is kidnapping. Is this what you are telling us. OK. One problem though the judicial system doesn't think the same way Psy does.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 09:43:29 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Froderik"
Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

But if you are trying to communicate with people who have not been through one of these places then your vocabulary looks foolish.  Amongst yourselves it seems to work fine, but if you are looking for credibility from people who have never been in a program you need to use different words unless you want to be viewed as childish.


Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.

Whoa, wait a second, come on waaaaait......you are not believed by many folks here. Look around when you start talking people scatter. This board becomes a ghost town, you push people away.
The only folks I read are sock puppets from DJ and Frodo's negative one liners.
Title: Kidnapping
Post by: none-ya on October 14, 2010, 09:47:25 PM
Look, if you would rather not argue semantics or verbage, Does "taken by force against one's will" While not being placed under arrest.  serves the same meaning. Just kinda' rolls off the tounge huh?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 14, 2010, 09:54:55 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
If the minor is not under arrest, then why can't he just say no! I ain't goin'. Because he has no rights to start with. If he dosen't go with the transporter, or won't get on the school bus, the the parents should call the cops.By the time it got to court, maybe he could get a lawyer or some sort of advocate.  to represent his(or her) wishes. problem is, kids don't have money. Nobody is lining up to represent children. It ain't safe to be a kid anywhere, anymore. And until things change. they'll just keep lining up (for a fee) to take the kids away. = LEGAL KIDNAPPING!

I guess the survivor would not be lying if there was a term "Legal Kidnapping" but I have never heard of this.  I understand what you are saying, none-ya, but I think the term "escort Service" would be the more accurate description.  



...
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 09:58:25 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

Really is Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry not count, Ursus. Yes, it has been established in the debates on this Web Site and the dozens upon dozens of other sites. All the interested reader has to do is read the various opinions on the sites. Most of the opinions are from kids that went through the programs.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: none-ya on October 14, 2010, 10:09:44 PM
Quote
Whooter wrote;
"Why make up stories of being kidnapped"


Hey keeper, his question came from the original post. And Iv'e been answering ever since. Kidnapping is not lying. I just posted this a minute ago and you saw fit to remove it? what gives? Maybe we have a problem, But im still on point.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 14, 2010, 11:08:31 PM
Whooter are you ever going to be able back up your claims? Honestly John just provide a single post that backs up your nonsense about abuse survivors lying. Just one.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Ursus on October 14, 2010, 11:27:51 PM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.
Really is Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry not count, Ursus. Yes, it has been established in the debates on this Web Site and the dozens upon dozens of other sites. All the interested reader has to do is read the various opinions on the sites. Most of the opinions are from kids that went through the programs.
What are you trying to say, Danny? Are you trying to say: that because the allegedly offending vernacular is used not only on fornits, but also on "Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry" ...  that this is further proof that these "kids" must be "lying?"
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 14, 2010, 11:46:05 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.
Really is Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry not count, Ursus. Yes, it has been established in the debates on this Web Site and the dozens upon dozens of other sites. All the interested reader has to do is read the various opinions on the sites. Most of the opinions are from kids that went through the programs.
What are you trying to say, Danny? Are you trying to say: that because the allegedly offending vernacular is used not only on fornits, but also on "Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry" ...  that this is further proof that these "kids" must be "lying?"

I thought what I said was very clear, read the comments from the various sites kids/adults from programs are calling other kids/adults from programs (most of the time they know one another, they are from the same program and time) liars and fabricators. They are challenging stories for there truthfulness.
I just wondered if you were going to acknowledge this information or act like it does not exist. Because it does. They are not EdConns, parents or ex-program kids/adults promoting programs for a certain program or Corp. These posters have no incentive to protect profits and they are not trying to  pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 15, 2010, 12:06:56 AM
I have no need to embellish or lie about my time in the program.  I have a life now and I am happy with it, despite their efforts.  The programs, on the other hand, and all who depend on them for their livelihood, have a very obvious need to maintain credibility.  This is why they change their names every couple of years and keep moving from one jurisdiction to another, with a few exceptions where there is particularly lax oversight.
   These programs still use a nearly identical “behavior modification” model to the one used by the place I was in 25 years ago.  The programs have worked very hard to conceal this fact from the public.  They have created their own language, like other human rights violators have done in the past, to soften public perception of their transgressions  ( re-education doesn’t sound that bad, like some kind of school, right? ).  
   So now we have the term; “escort services”, which tells the hearer nothing about what the services actually do.  Paid abductors would be better.  Or just goons.  


noun |?es?kôrt|
a person, vehicle, ship, or aircraft, or a group of these, accompanying another for protection, security, or as a mark of rank : a police escort | he was driven away under armed escort.
• a man who accompanies a woman to a particular social event.
• a person, typically a woman, who may be hired to accompany someone socially : [as adj. ] an escort agency.
verb |i?skôrt| [ trans. ]
accompany (someone or something) somewhere, esp. for protection or security, or as a mark of rank : Shiona escorted Janice to the door | the shipment was escorted by armed patrol boats.
ORIGIN late 16th cent. (originally denoting a body of armed men escorting travelers): from French escorte (noun), escorter (verb), from Italian scorta, feminine past participle of scorgere ‘to conduct, guide,’ based on Latin ex- ‘out of’ + corrigere ‘set right’ (see correct ).


   Please note there is nothing in this definition about “accompanying people” against their will.  This industry has also co-opted the words “boarding school”,
“drug treatment center” and “boot camp” into their web of deceit and greed.  The facilities now bearing these names, where they forcibly re-educate captive teenagers in a manner that would be strikingly reminiscent to a POW from the Korean war, bear no resemblance to their original definitions.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Ursus on October 15, 2010, 12:54:38 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.
Really is Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry not count, Ursus. Yes, it has been established in the debates on this Web Site and the dozens upon dozens of other sites. All the interested reader has to do is read the various opinions on the sites. Most of the opinions are from kids that went through the programs.
What are you trying to say, Danny? Are you trying to say: that because the allegedly offending vernacular is used not only on fornits, but also on "Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry" ...  that this is further proof that these "kids" must be "lying?"
I thought what I said was very clear, read the comments from the various sites kids/adults from programs are calling other kids/adults from programs (most of the time they know one another, they are from the same program and time) liars and fabricators. They are challenging stories for there truthfulness.
I just wondered if you were going to acknowledge this information or act like it does not exist. Because it does. They are not EdConns, parents or ex-program kids/adults promoting programs for a certain program or Corp. These posters have no incentive to protect profits and they are not trying to  pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts.
Well... your observations of human behavior have been my observations as well, but... these are not integrally pertinent to the point I was making. People calling each other liars and fabricators does not establish that any of the parties to the discussion are liars or fabricators, although some of them may well be. About the only safe conclusion you can draw from such observations, barring any additional information, is that folk are disagreeing with one another.

The point I was making has to do with the thematic structure of this thread, namely, how Whooter set it up.

The thread title was phrased as a question: "Why do Survivors need to Lie?" The question relies on a premise, namely, that "survivors need to lie." Of course, Whooter did not make said premise as the title of the thread, 'cuz he knew that such a thread would have been relegated to OFFA right pronto, since it's basically just inflammatory rhetoric. So, he phrased it as a question, hoping folks not in the know would just blindly accept the underlying premise, and those in the know would be put on the defensive.

Whooter used the first sentence of the OP as the vessel of proof and/or rationalization for making the thread: "It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs."

The phrasing of the opening sentence suggests that this statement is a widely accepted fact. Perhaps even one supported by empirical research and/or analysis. It is NOT. And yet, a certain group of people do seem to tout such claims or similar as "statements of fact," and they are usually EdCons and program proponents. Why? Because it is a marketing strategy.

While there are certainly many who tout claims that kids unhappy with their program experience are liars, fabricators and/or embellishers, it is usually quite clear, from the context if not the words themselves, that this is their belief or opinion. And... that's a somewhat different kettle of fish.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Ursus on October 15, 2010, 01:35:09 AM
To summarize (in case ya found the linguistic analysis too boring  ;) ):


I have no quibble, Danny, with your observation that people on "Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry" are calling each other liars, fabricators, equivocators, embellishers, and various other descriptives too colorful to repeat. I just don't find it overly pertinent to the above request, namely proof or evidence that "it is widely established" that kids "who did not do well [vis a vis their program(s)] have a need to embellish or lie."
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 15, 2010, 08:12:17 AM
Quote from: "Ursus"
To summarize (in case ya found the linguistic analysis too boring  ;) ):

  • Whooter titled this thread with a question based on a false or, at the least, arguable premise.
  • He supplied rationalization for said premise with a contestable statement that he offered as fact.
  • I requested proof or evidence that said statement was, indeed, "fact."
  • Whooter has yet to supply it. He has ignored my request.

I have no quibble, Danny, with your observation that people on "Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry" are calling each other liars, fabricators, equivocators, embellishers, and various other descriptives too colorful to repeat. I just don't find it overly pertinent to the above request, namely proof or evidence that "it is widely established" that kids "who did not do well [vis a vis their program(s)] have a need to embellish or lie."

Thanks, I can not at this point establish that all kids who did not do well in programs, embellish and lie either and make this a fact. Other then to say that, it appears most of the squabbling on these various sites is about how they did in their programs.
I do understand your comments here about the intent of this post. Point taken.
Yet I will say this, I can understand his defense to his character.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 15, 2010, 08:39:43 AM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
I have no need to embellish or lie about my time in the program.  I have a life now and I am happy with it, despite their efforts.  The programs, on the other hand, and all who depend on them for their livelihood, have a very obvious need to maintain credibility.  This is why they change their names every couple of years and keep moving from one jurisdiction to another, with a few exceptions where there is particularly lax oversight.
   These programs still use a nearly identical “behavior modification” model to the one used by the place I was in 25 years ago.  The programs have worked very hard to conceal this fact from the public.  They have created their own language, like other human rights violators have done in the past, to soften public perception of their transgressions  ( re-education doesn’t sound that bad, like some kind of school, right? ).  
   So now we have the term; “escort services”, which tells the hearer nothing about what the services actually do.  Paid abductors would be better.  Or just goons.  


noun |?es?kôrt|
a person, vehicle, ship, or aircraft, or a group of these, accompanying another for protection, security, or as a mark of rank : a police escort | he was driven away under armed escort.
• a man who accompanies a woman to a particular social event.
• a person, typically a woman, who may be hired to accompany someone socially : [as adj. ] an escort agency.
verb |i?skôrt| [ trans. ]
accompany (someone or something) somewhere, esp. for protection or security, or as a mark of rank : Shiona escorted Janice to the door | the shipment was escorted by armed patrol boats.
ORIGIN late 16th cent. (originally denoting a body of armed men escorting travelers): from French escorte (noun), escorter (verb), from Italian scorta, feminine past participle of scorgere ‘to conduct, guide,’ based on Latin ex- ‘out of’ + corrigere ‘set right’ (see correct ).


   Please note there is nothing in this definition about “accompanying people” against their will.  This industry has also co-opted the words “boarding school”,
“drug treatment center” and “boot camp” into their web of deceit and greed.  The facilities now bearing these names, where they forcibly re-educate captive teenagers in a manner that would be strikingly reminiscent to a POW from the Korean war, bear no resemblance to their original definitions.

Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.
There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School. BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.
Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself. This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.  
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 09:27:40 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "none-ya"
If the minor is not under arrest, then why can't he just say no! I ain't goin'. Because he has no rights to start with. If he dosen't go with the transporter, or won't get on the school bus, the the parents should call the cops.By the time it got to court, maybe he could get a lawyer or some sort of advocate.  to represent his(or her) wishes. problem is, kids don't have money. Nobody is lining up to represent children. It ain't safe to be a kid anywhere, anymore. And until things change. they'll just keep lining up (for a fee) to take the kids away. = LEGAL KIDNAPPING!

I guess the survivor would not be lying if there was a term "Legal Kidnapping" but I have never heard of this.  I understand what you are saying, none-ya, but I think the term "escort Service" would be the more accurate description.  



Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 15, 2010, 09:28:40 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.

Yes, and the word "escort" is a deliberate attempt to soften and hide the reality that these children are being "taken against their will".  In many cases they are just ASSUMED to be a danger to themselves or others.  What happened to innocent until proven guilty?


There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School.

I never said there was, my point was that they have taken words already in existence and used them to describe something reasonably new in this country, coercive thought reform facilities.  This is blatantly deceptive.

 BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.

OK, good point, I guess.  I was talking about the "wilderness survival camps".

Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself.

I never stop being angry at people like you and Whooter.

 This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.  

I reiterate;  I have no need to embellish or lie about my time in the program. I have a life now and I am happy with it, despite their efforts. The programs, on the other hand, and all who depend on them for their livelihood, have a very obvious need to maintain credibility. This is why they change their names every couple of years and keep moving from one jurisdiction to another, with a few exceptions where there is particularly lax oversight.
These programs still use a nearly identical “behavior modification” model to the one used by the place I was in 25 years ago. The programs have worked very hard to conceal this fact from the public. They have created their own language, like other human rights violators have done in the past, to soften public perception of their transgressions ( re-education doesn’t sound that bad, like some kind of school, right? ).
So now we have the term; “escort services”, which tells the hearer nothing about what the services actually do. Paid abductors would be better. Or just goons.
Title: Re: Why do EdCons pretend that Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 09:30:06 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.
Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

Really is Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry not count, Ursus. Yes, it has been established in the debates on this Web Site and the dozens upon dozens of other sites. All the interested reader has to do is read the various opinions on the sites. Most of the opinions are from kids that went through the programs.


No, they don't count when you're being asked to back up something you've stated as fact.  Facebook, Myspace and Twitter are not examples of "proof" or "evidence".  ::)
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 09:32:31 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"

Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.

They're allowed to be taken without any proof whatsoever of them being a "danger" to anyone.

Quote
Do survivors lie and embellish.


Is that a question?  The answer is generally, no.  We don't have to.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DKincaidCFS on October 15, 2010, 09:39:48 AM
Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 09:43:37 AM
Quote from: "DKincaidCFS"
Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?


I think it's mostly program survivors.  There are a few ex-staff, a couple of program parents (both pro and con) and at least one EdCon I can think of.  Which category do you fall into?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 15, 2010, 09:45:06 AM
Quote from: "DKincaidCFS"
Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?

The vast majority of us are "program veterans" or "survivors", but one or two people here are obviously affiliated with programs and are trying to do damage control.  I hope you read this before the "gatekeeper" trashes it into the OFFA section.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DKincaidCFS on October 15, 2010, 09:50:04 AM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DKincaidCFS"
Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?


I think it's mostly program survivors.  There are a few ex-staff, a couple of program parents (both pro and con) and at least one EdCon I can think of.  Which category do you fall into?

I am doing some research into "programs" (for lack of a better term) and the people who attended them.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 09:52:52 AM
Quote from: "DKincaidCFS"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DKincaidCFS"
Can you tell me, generally, what is the mix of posters here?  Are most posters "program veterans," family members, program staff, educational consultants, etc.?


I think it's mostly program survivors.  There are a few ex-staff, a couple of program parents (both pro and con) and at least one EdCon I can think of.  Which category do you fall into?

I am doing some research into "programs" (for lack of a better term) and the people who attended them.

Have you had any exposure to them before this?  What sparked your interest?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DKincaidCFS on October 15, 2010, 09:56:44 AM
I have done extensive research into similar topics previously and I am now exploring this particular area to assess if it is meritorious of continued work geared ultimately toward publication.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 09:59:05 AM
Quote from: "DKincaidCFS"
I have done extensive research into similar topics previously and I am now exploring this particular area to assess if it is meritorious of continued work geared ultimately toward publication.


Great!  I hope you delve deeply into it.  Welcome.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Ursus on October 15, 2010, 10:21:30 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
I have no need to embellish or lie about my time in the program.  I have a life now and I am happy with it, despite their efforts.  The programs, on the other hand, and all who depend on them for their livelihood, have a very obvious need to maintain credibility.  This is why they change their names every couple of years and keep moving from one jurisdiction to another, with a few exceptions where there is particularly lax oversight.
   These programs still use a nearly identical “behavior modification” model to the one used by the place I was in 25 years ago.  The programs have worked very hard to conceal this fact from the public.  They have created their own language, like other human rights violators have done in the past, to soften public perception of their transgressions  ( re-education doesn’t sound that bad, like some kind of school, right? ).  
   So now we have the term; “escort services”, which tells the hearer nothing about what the services actually do.  Paid abductors would be better.  Or just goons.  


noun |?es?kôrt|
a person, vehicle, ship, or aircraft, or a group of these, accompanying another for protection, security, or as a mark of rank : a police escort | he was driven away under armed escort.
• a man who accompanies a woman to a particular social event.
• a person, typically a woman, who may be hired to accompany someone socially : [as adj. ] an escort agency.
verb |i?skôrt| [ trans. ]
accompany (someone or something) somewhere, esp. for protection or security, or as a mark of rank : Shiona escorted Janice to the door | the shipment was escorted by armed patrol boats.
ORIGIN late 16th cent. (originally denoting a body of armed men escorting travelers): from French escorte (noun), escorter (verb), from Italian scorta, feminine past participle of scorgere ‘to conduct, guide,’ based on Latin ex- ‘out of’ + corrigere ‘set right’ (see correct ).


   Please note there is nothing in this definition about “accompanying people” against their will.  This industry has also co-opted the words “boarding school”,
“drug treatment center” and “boot camp” into their web of deceit and greed.  The facilities now bearing these names, where they forcibly re-educate captive teenagers in a manner that would be strikingly reminiscent to a POW from the Korean war, bear no resemblance to their original definitions.
Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.
There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School. BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.
Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself. This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.  
Danny, not agreeing with another poster is NOT the same thing as attacking them. Lack of agreement is generally part and parcel of a discussion, especially one as controversial as this one.

Whether Shady is angry or not, I see nothing in Shady's post, quoted above, that can be construed or interpreted as an attack on Whooter or his character.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 10:30:27 AM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

If a guy who was shot in a hunting accident feels he needs to tell everyone he was shot by a terrorist because "Hunting Accident" doesnt describe the way he truly felt when he was shot this would still be wrong and it would be lying.

Why not be truthful and tell everyone it was an escort Service and then describe how tough those guys are and how you felt being handcuffed was abusive?  Why lie about it is my question.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 10:33:42 AM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Danny, not agreeing with another poster is NOT the same thing as attacking them. Lack of agreement is generally part and parcel of a discussion, especially one as controversial as this one.


Ursus, you forget that we're dealing with LGAT mentality here (this isn't an attack either.  It's an observation that I fully believe is true).  Of course disagreeing is considered attacking.  In the LGAT world, you just do NOT question what you're told to think!  Those of us who've been in programs know exactly what happens if you do.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 11:05:38 AM
Ursus, you were looking for examples of kids lying or embellishing their stories.  Just a quick scan of the database here on fornits brings up many examples.  Here are a few of them:

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=65118#p65118)
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14548&p=303137&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p303137)
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24538&p=302114&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p302114)
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24369&p=299920&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p299920)
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 15, 2010, 11:19:47 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Ursus, you were looking for examples of kids lying or embellishing their stories.  Just a quick scan of the database here on fornits brings up many examples.  Here are a few of them:

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=65118#p65118)
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14548&p=303137&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p303137)
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24538&p=302114&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p302114)
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24369&p=299920&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p299920)
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.



...

This is not lying.  These people are telling the truth AS THEY SEE IT.  At least one of these posters was a parent with no affiliation with any program.  To that parent, their daughters friend was kidnapped and tortured, period.  This, along with your other three examples lends credence to our argument that "escort" is grossly misleading and what is happening to these kids is much closer to most peoples definition of "kidnapping and torture".
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 12:07:54 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"

This is not lying.  These people are telling the truth AS THEY SEE IT.  At least one of these posters was a parent with no affiliation with any program.  To that parent, their daughters friend was kidnapped and tortured, period.  This, along with your other three examples lends credence to our argument that "escort" is grossly misleading and what is happening to these kids is much closer to most peoples definition of "kidnapping and torture".

Its not misleading if that is what happened to them.  How can it be?  If you were escorted than that is the fact.  If it felt different then the person can explain that but they shouldnt lie.

What if another survivor says he felt like he was abused in his program.  If after we speak to him he says he was forced to sit in a class room all day which to him "AS HE SEES IT" is abusive.  Would this then also have to be considered abuse?

If a guy says he was shot by a terrorist but it turns out to be a hunting accident.  Can he justify his lie by saying he felt terrorized and thought he was going to die?  The fact is that he was not shot by a terrorist.  The same as these kids, the fact is that they were escorted to their school.

A person cannot change the facts because of how they feel.  They can say they got hit by a bus when in fact they got hit by a bicycle just because it felt like a bus.

Spreading lies that you were kidnapped when in fact you were not is just wrong.  The same as if you were saying you were abused when in fact you were just forced to sit in a class room is lying also.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 12:12:19 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 15, 2010, 12:16:02 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"

This is not lying.  These people are telling the truth AS THEY SEE IT.  At least one of these posters was a parent with no affiliation with any program.  To that parent, their daughters friend was kidnapped and tortured, period.  This, along with your other three examples lends credence to our argument that "escort" is grossly misleading and what is happening to these kids is much closer to most peoples definition of "kidnapping and torture".

Its not misleading if that is what happened to them.  How can it be?  If you were escorted than that is the fact.  If it felt different then the person can explain that but they shouldnt lie.

What if another survivor says he felt like he was abused in his program.  If after we speak to him he says he was forced to sit in a class room all day which to him "AS HE SEES IT" is abusive.  Would this then also have to be considered abuse?

If a guy says he was shot by a terrorist but it turns out to be a hunting accident.  Can he justify his lie by saying he felt terrorized and thought he was going to die?  The fact is that he was not shot by a terrorist.  The same as these kids, the fact is that they were escorted to their school.

A person cannot change the facts because of how they feel.  They can say they got hit by a bus when in fact they got hit by a bicycle just because it felt like a bus.

Spreading lies that you were kidnapped when in fact you were not is just wrong.  The same as if you were saying you were abused when in fact you were just forced to sit in a class room is lying also.



...

Same as if you created a fake family in order to advance your agenda.  People, seriously, why do you humor the ultimate liar?

Quote from: "whooter"
I fabricated a son

'Nuff said.  Nobody else here has ever been shown to be liar of this magnitude.  Not even  :shamrock: Li'l sidekick :shamrock: .
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 12:26:51 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?

No, my question was "Why lie about it"? (no you specifically)  Why do people lie and tell people they were kidnapped?  Why not just be honest and say they were taken by an escort service and then tell them it felt like they were kidnapped instead of deceiving people.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 15, 2010, 12:31:02 PM
Why don't you "just be honest"?  You fabricated a whole family, man.  What's your need to lie?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 12:35:19 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?

No, my question was "Why lie about it"? (no you specifically)  

Then you should have phrased it that way instead of, again, trying to make it seem as if I've said something I haven't.


Quote
Why do people lie and tell people they were kidnapped?  Why not just be honest and say they were taken by an escort service and then tell them it felt like they were kidnapped instead of deceiving people.

To them, being woken up in the middle of the night, handcuffed and taken by force to a place that doesn't have proper credentials to "treat" anyone, let alone a "troubled child", where said child has no recourse to report abuse or ask for help IS kidnapping.  To you, it's escorting so you use that word because that's what you believe it to be.  They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is.  But you know this already and are playing semantics again in order to cloud the issue.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 15, 2010, 12:51:42 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


Escort service sounds like a call girl operation.

It also doesn't truly describe what happens to these kids.  They're not gently escorted by some nice people to a nice place.  They're usually ripped from their beds in the very early hours of the morning, sometimes handcuffed, screamed at and told that they're going to this "place" and that they'd better not fight.  That's not exactly "escorting" yet you guys get away with calling it that.

I understand that you may feel "Escort Service" doesnt describe how the kids feel, Anne, by why lie about it?

When did I do that?

No, my question was "Why lie about it"? (no you specifically)  Why do people lie and tell people they were kidnapped?  Why not just be honest and say they were taken by an escort service and then tell them it felt like they were kidnapped instead of deceiving people.



...

Why do professional kidnappers who work for programs feel the need to lie and call their services "escort services"?  They are armed, they are taking a minor away, by force, to a place where they will have no human rights and no recourse to the law.  I think this is the root of your misconception, Whooter.  You are believing the side that obviously has a vested financial interest in these programs maintaining a benign public image.  And, inexplicably, dismissing out of hand all the reports of abuse from people who have actually been through one of these places.  Why would you do that, I wonder?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 12:57:22 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Then you should have phrased it that way instead of, again, trying to make it seem as if I've said something I haven't.
I didnt say "Why did you lie about it?  I said:

... why lie about it?

But I will try to phrase things more carefully for you.

Quote
To them, being woken up in the middle of the night, handcuffed and taken by force to a place that doesn't have proper credentials to "treat" anyone, let alone a "troubled child", where said child has no recourse to report abuse or ask for help IS kidnapping.  To you, it's escorting so you use that word because that's what you believe it to be.  They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is.  But you know this already and are playing semantics again in order to cloud the issue.

I think the key to this (or one of them) is this statement "They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is."

So it really doesn't matter if it is fact or not.  They are stating what they believe it to be.  If someone pointed out to them that it was an escort service then would they still ignore the facts and report it as kidnapping?  I think the answer is "yes" to this.

Along the same line of thinking then would it also be okay to report something which occurred inside the program as abuse even though it was not abuse.  If the child thought cleaning their room was abusive then it is okay to tell everyone that they were abused by the program?  If a child never had to clean his room before then this very well may feel like abuse to him.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Froderik on October 15, 2010, 01:03:14 PM
Lying is what Whooter does best.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 01:06:45 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Then you should have phrased it that way instead of, again, trying to make it seem as if I've said something I haven't.
I didnt say "Why did you lie about it?  I said:

... why lie about it?

But I will try to phrase things more carefully for you.

Quote
To them, being woken up in the middle of the night, handcuffed and taken by force to a place that doesn't have proper credentials to "treat" anyone, let alone a "troubled child", where said child has no recourse to report abuse or ask for help IS kidnapping.  To you, it's escorting so you use that word because that's what you believe it to be.  They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is.  But you know this already and are playing semantics again in order to cloud the issue.

I think the key to this (or one of them) is this statement "They use the word kidnapping because they believe that's what it is."

So it really doesn't matter if it is fact or not.  They are stating what they believe it to be.  If someone pointed out to them that it was an escort service then would they still ignore the facts and report it as kidnapping?

Just because they refer to themselves as an 'escort service' that doesn't meant that's what they actually do.  Do they provide hookers to the kids?

Quote
 I think the answer is "yes" to this.

If you're going to answer your own questions, why ask them?

Quote
Along the same line of thinking then would it also be okay to report something which occurred inside the program as abuse even though it was not abuse.  If the child thought cleaning their room was abusive then it is okay to tell everyone that they were abused by the program?  If a child never had to clean his room before then this very well may feel like abuse to him.

This is why I hate getting into discussions with you.  Your stupid analogies that have NOTHING to do with the subject at hand and your talent for spin make me dizzy.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 01:10:02 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"

Why do professional kidnappers who work for programs feel the need to lie and call their services "escort services"?  They are armed, they are taking a minor away, by force, to a place where they will have no human rights and no recourse to the law.  I think this is the root of your misconception, Whooter.  You are believing the side that obviously has a vested financial interest in these programs maintaining a benign public image.  

I am not believing one side or the other, Shady.  I am just stating the facts.  Look up the escort sites.  Look for various amber alerts.  Are any of these agencies being investigated for kidnapping.  I haven't been able to find even one.   How many reported kidnappings in the united states end up with the kid in a program?  Where are all the reports and arrests?  Being kidnapped is a fantasy statement for many on fornits.  If you were really being truthful you would state that they were escorted to the program and then expand on it like..... the escort service was harsh and handcuffed me and forced me into their car etc.  But you dont do that, you need to try to deceive the reader.  Once your friend or the readers figures out that you were not really kidnapped then your credibility is zero and no one will believe the rest of your story.  How could they?  How would they be able to differentiate between the fantasy and the facts.


Quote
And, inexplicably, dismissing out of hand all the reports of abuse from people who have actually been through one of these places.  Why would you do that, I wonder?

again you do this.  Where did I dismiss all reports of abuse.  See this is what you believe so it makes it factual to you.  I never stated That I dismiss all reports of abuse.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 15, 2010, 01:24:44 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
you need to try to deceive the reader

No, you need to try to deceive the reader.  You are liar of the first magnitude.  You made up your whole family and story.  Your "credibility is zero," not the others who post here.

Did you forget this?

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

Only a whacko would make up shit like that.  You're crazy, man.  Your whole life is a lie.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 15, 2010, 01:29:42 PM
Once your friend or the readers figures out that you were not really who you claimed to be, then your credibility is zero and no one will believe the rest of your story. How could they? How would they be able to differentiate between the fantasy and the facts.  


"whooter wrote:
I fabricated a son

I am done, I had enough of program toads when I was locked in one of those cesspits.  Kudos though Whooter, you are a champion liar and spin doctor, I can only imagine how many parents you have conned to get so good at this argument.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 01:35:22 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Once your friend or the readers figures out that you were not really who you claimed to be, then your credibility is zero and no one will believe the rest of your story. How could they? How would they be able to differentiate between the fantasy and the facts.  


"whooter wrote:
I fabricated a son

I am done, I had enough of program toads when I was locked in one of those cesspits.

 :tup:   It's so tiresome.

 
Quote
Kudos though Whooter, you are a champion liar and spin doctor, I can only imagine how many parents you have conned to get so good at this argument.

He's a marketer (yes, yes....it's my belief).  It's pretty much his profession to spin.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 15, 2010, 02:00:30 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
He's a marketer (yes, yes....it's my belief). It's pretty much his profession to spin.

He's a program marketer.  That's the key.  No normal person unconnected to programs would spend over five years here trying to discredit people who were abused by programs.  It just fails the smell test.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 02:03:41 PM
There are a few threads here dedicated to attacking me personally.  Cant we please keep the personal attacks in those threads?  I will try to get down there to respond in those sections is you like.

Back to the Topic:

I sense from the frustration level and argument that many here feel that the escort services should be renamed “Kidnapping Services”.  Maybe I would even agree with you, but we cant do that on our own and expect to communicate to people outside of fornits what happened to you.

If you stated that you were taken to a program by an escort service and then went on to explain how you were treated and how you felt you were kidnapped then this would get your point across just as effectively.  But to lie to people that you were kidnapped you run the risk of getting caught in that lie and then no one believing you.  If later on you state that you were abused in the program people would step back a little and say “This is the same person who lied about being kidnapped so how do we know he is telling the truth about being abused”?  

If the person redefines  kidnapping then maybe he/she is redefining abuse too.

Do you see what I mean?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Froderik on October 15, 2010, 02:05:24 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
same old shit same old shit same old shit same old shit same old shit

^^ LIES ^^
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 02:05:44 PM
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
He's a marketer (yes, yes....it's my belief). It's pretty much his profession to spin.

He's a program marketer.  That's the key.  No normal person unconnected to programs would spend over five years here trying to discredit people who were abused by programs.  It just fails the smell test.


Oh absolutely.  But I believe his background even before he shipped his kid off (whatever the gender.....I can't keep track anymore) was in marketing, but probably wasn't too successful.  He just saw the opportunity to cash in with the TTI and scared, vulnerable parents.  They're easier marks.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 15, 2010, 03:14:25 PM
Danny B wrote:
Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.
There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School. BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.
Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself. This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.


Ursus wrote:
Danny, not agreeing with another poster is NOT the same thing as attacking them. Lack of agreement is generally part and parcel of a discussion, especially one as controversial as this one.

Whether Shady is angry or not, I see nothing in Shady's post, quoted above, that can be construed or interpreted as an attack on Whooter or his character.


DannyB wrote:
I guess I was taking into account the totality of his posts towards Whooter and generalizing my judgment of his attitude. Which I don't think is that far off. Between Watchful Yoemen and Shady they are running neck and neck with their sarcastic negative responses.
Ursus, try this out. If you have been asked countless times who you are, what are you doing here, what is your name, who do you work for ect...and have answered all these questions to the best of your ability, taking into consideration confidentiality and after all of this you are still subjected to ridicule and and slander, Yes I would call this attacking.
More to the point, if he said his name is not John Rueben and you keep callinh him that, I would say that is attacking. Same with his employment, family and so on. Folks here are calling him names, saying he works for fictitious EDConns, Corps ect...disparaging his family and so on. This is all attacking because he has said it is not true. You have not conclusively proven he is lying, at all.
All this ties into why survivors need to lie, you/they just can not tolerate a mild mannered highly intelligent parent in your so-called backyard. You folks begin to vibrate and sweat and you have to remove this obstacle of fear, yes Whooter represents one big fear you folks can not control.
I'll talk about this more later. Hope it remains here and doesn't get moved to "offa".
Oh, I do agree with you in your first sentence there above, thanks.


Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 15, 2010, 03:41:02 PM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Danny B wrote:
Shady, just demonstrated the exact point Whooter was making. Of course children are being taken against their will, especially if they are harmful to themselves or others.
There is not a "BootCamp" in this country that calls itself a Boarding School. BootCamps were primarily run by the States Detention Services/ Jails/ Juvie.
Shady is doing this because he is angry right now and believes he is irritating, Whooter or myself. This is the premise of Whooter's thread. Why? Do survivors lie and embellish. Well as Shady demonstrated right here because they get angry at another poster for not agreeing with them and they want to attack this person.


Ursus wrote:
Danny, not agreeing with another poster is NOT the same thing as attacking them. Lack of agreement is generally part and parcel of a discussion, especially one as controversial as this one.

Whether Shady is angry or not, I see nothing in Shady's post, quoted above, that can be construed or interpreted as an attack on Whooter or his character.


DannyB wrote:
I guess I was taking into account the totality of his posts towards Whooter and generalizing my judgment of his attitude. Which I don't think is that far off. Between Watchful Yoemen and Shady they are running neck and neck with their sarcastic negative responses.
Ursus, try this out. If you have been asked countless times who you are, what are you doing here, what is your name, who do you work for ect...and have answered all these questions to the best of your ability, taking into consideration confidentiality and after all of this you are still subjected to ridicule and and slander, Yes I would call this attacking.
More to the point, if he said his name is not John Rueben and you keep callinh him that, I would say that is attacking. Same with his employment, family and so on. Folks here are calling him names, saying he works for fictitious EDConns, Corps ect...disparaging his family and so on. This is all attacking because he has said it is not true. You have not conclusively proven he is lying, at all.
All this ties into why survivors need to lie, you/they just can not tolerate a mild mannered highly intelligent parent in your so-called backyard. You folks begin to vibrate and sweat and you have to remove this obstacle of fear, yes Whooter represents one big fear you folks can not control.
I'll talk about this more later. Hope it remains here and doesn't get moved to "offa".
Oh, I do agree with you in your first sentence there above, thanks.



Making the same obtuse pigheaded argument over and over no matter what the other side says is not "highly intelligent".  And accusing other posters of molesting their own children, as I have read in Whooters posts, is not "mild mannered".  And telling all of us here, who know full well how abusive the treatment we received was, that nobody believes us because our accounts do not sound the way he thinks they should sound, how is that "mild mannered"?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 03:41:54 PM
Anne allow me to use you as an example for a moment

A good example of a survivor embellishing is when Anne Bonney gets frustrated with a conversation she will start to make up lies about people and attack them.  This plays itself out over and over again here on fornits.  

So, if a survivor has a habit of doing this then would this same person make up lies about the program they were in if they hated it and were frustrated that they couldn't fight back.  I believe that if someone is willing to lie, embellish and exaggerate here on fornits against another poster then it is easy to conclude that she would lie about events in her program also.

Anne Bonney wrote about whooter a few posts back:
Quote
He just saw the opportunity to cash in with the TTI and scared, vulnerable parents. They're easier marks.
The above quote is just one of many lies that Anne continues to peddle.

Comparing this to the original topic.  "Why do survivors need to lie?"

Why does Anne Bonney need to lie about me here on this thread?  Because she is frustrated that I will not agree with her?  Why not come out and say why you are frustrated?  Is it because I lied also in a thread awhile back?  Because I am middle of the road to pro-program? or because I wont agree with you?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 15, 2010, 04:37:50 PM
I'm not quite sure how I can "embellish" a belief I hold and I stated it as my belief, not a fact. But feel free to try & bait me some more.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 04:47:38 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
I'm not quite sure how I can "embellish" a belief I hold and I stated it as my belief, not a fact. But feel free to try & bait me some more.

Yes, you stated the first sentence as a believe.  But not the second where I took the quote from (which supported the title of this thread).  Dont play the victim about being baited, anne.  You do it all day long, name calling is part of your M.O..  Anyway we can move on I wanted to make my point, which I did, but I dont want to create a flame war over this.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 15, 2010, 05:01:27 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"

Making the same obtuse pigheaded argument over and over no matter what the other side says is not "highly intelligent".  And accusing other posters of molesting their own children, as I have read in Whooters posts, is not "mild mannered".  And telling all of us here, who know full well how abusive the treatment we received was, that nobody believes us because our accounts do not sound the way he thinks they should sound, how is that "mild mannered"?

Shady, I am sorry I come across as you describe.  I do understand the abuse that many of you received.  But why would someone jeopardize themselves being believed by lying or embellishing their stories?  I have never understood that.

If someone like Shaggy can communicate what occurred to him effectively by just telling the truth why cant other people?  He didnt need to lie to get his point across and describe what happened to him.

Do some people feel telling the truth just isn't abusive enough or dramatic enough?  Does adding words like torture, Gulag and kidnapping attract more sympathy or gain more attention?  I think this is what I am looking to understand.  I heard answers like:  It feels like kidnapping to them,  or the law should be changed to call it kidnapping.  Which makes a little more sense but doesn't explain why they would jeopardize being caught lying for a little more drama.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 15, 2010, 05:29:20 PM
Quote
Shady wrote:
Making the same obtuse pigheaded argument over and over no matter what the other side says is not "highly intelligent".  And accusing other posters of molesting their own children, as I have read in Whooters posts, is not "mild mannered".  And telling all of us here, who know full well how abusive the treatment we received was, that nobody believes us because our accounts do not sound the way he thinks they should sound, how is that "mild mannered"?

Well I think you should examine yourself and find out why you do the same thing yet are strangely detached from this reality.
Shady, seriously you are no different, he has his opinions as you have yours. Difference Whooter is not going out of his way to lie and fabricate stories, either about the TTI or other people personally. His short comings usually are within a response better yet a defense.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 15, 2010, 10:31:30 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Another derail thread created solely to tarnish survivors. It's sad really.  Specifically when it originates from someone who takes great pride in pernicious perfidy. The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable.

Jeesh, Samara, why have we not heard you complain like this when posts were being written about others. I hate to tell you but you folks are not above lying and down right manipulative reactions.

Your quote:
"The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable".

My quote:
How about this characterization, just basic garden variety folks. See, not all the drama.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Eliscu2 on October 16, 2010, 06:06:50 AM
:seg:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 16, 2010, 09:46:24 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote
Shady wrote:
Making the same obtuse pigheaded argument over and over no matter what the other side says is not "highly intelligent".  And accusing other posters of molesting their own children, as I have read in Whooters posts, is not "mild mannered".  And telling all of us here, who know full well how abusive the treatment we received was, that nobody believes us because our accounts do not sound the way he thinks they should sound, how is that "mild mannered"?

Well I think you should examine yourself and find out why you do the same thing yet are strangely detached from this reality.
Shady, seriously you are no different, he has his opinions as you have yours.

The difference is my opinion is based on my own experience INSIDE one of these programs, while Whooter admits he was never in one.

 Difference Whooter is not going out of his way to lie and fabricate stories, either about the TTI or other people personally.

Are we talking about the same Whooter?

 His short comings usually are within a response better yet a defense.

I could not understand that last sentence at all so I don't know how to respond to it.  

The very title of this thread tells you how much respect he has for everyone here.  He has been pissing in this pool for years and you just stand by and let him do it?  Where are your balls?  I guess they broke you pretty good at Elan.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 16, 2010, 10:32:29 AM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"

I could not understand that last sentence at all so I don't know how to respond to it.  

The very title of this thread tells you how much respect he has for everyone here.  He has been pissing in this pool for years and you just stand by and let him do it?  Where are your balls?  I guess they broke you pretty good at Elan.

Speaking of Balls, Shadyacres.  Why do you piss and moan about me but accept all the lies said about me personally?  People say I profit from the industry, had kids who committed suicide a wife that left me etc.  The list is extensive.

People make up stories all the time and lie.  Why do you stand by and accept this if lying bothers you so much?  Could it be a double standard?

How about if I started saying you deserved to be in a program because your parents didnt want to raise their own grandchild and that you had dropped out of school and were heading for your 3rd abortion and they were tired of paying to get you out of jail?  Would that be okay? or is it only okay if the person being lied about is pro-program or holds a moderate view?

You only see what you chose to see Shady.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 16, 2010, 01:19:49 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote
Shady wrote:
Making the same obtuse pigheaded argument over and over no matter what the other side says is not "highly intelligent".  And accusing other posters of molesting their own children, as I have read in Whooters posts, is not "mild mannered".  And telling all of us here, who know full well how abusive the treatment we received was, that nobody believes us because our accounts do not sound the way he thinks they should sound, how is that "mild mannered"?

Well I think you should examine yourself and find out why you do the same thing yet are strangely detached from this reality.
Shady, seriously you are no different, he has his opinions as you have yours.

The difference is my opinion is based on my own experience INSIDE one of these programs, while Whooter admits he was never in one.

 Difference Whooter is not going out of his way to lie and fabricate stories, either about the TTI or other people personally.

Are we talking about the same Whooter?

 His short comings usually are within a response better yet a defense.

I could not understand that last sentence at all so I don't know how to respond to it.


The very title of this thread tells you how much respect he has for everyone here.  He has been pissing in this pool for years and you just stand by and let him do it?  Where are your balls?  I guess they broke you pretty good at Elan.


My last sentence refers to Whooters frustration sometimes with malicious posters who blatantly beat up other posters they see as weaker.
Short comings: (character flaws (peccadilloes) slight nuance of a larger flaw) Whooter sometimes shows these nuances in his defense, to a post.  
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 16, 2010, 02:15:04 PM
Quote
My last sentence refers to Whooters frustration sometimes with malicious posters who blatantly beat up other posters they see as weaker.
Short comings: (character flaws (peccadilloes) slight nuance of a larger flaw) Whooter sometimes shows these nuances in his defense, to a post.

Yet you ignore that all Whooter does is lie about not only surivors, but about himself.

Take a look:

Here he jokes about molesting his own make believe daughter and having her killed:

Quote
by TheWho » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:52 am

"Guest" wrote:
Ignore the who. He talks about respect for privacy but regularly makes reference to his own daughter and claims he molested her. The man belongs in jail

I heard he had his daughter killed and hired someone to molest her. He is one sicko, he should be banned from posting.

http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21541&hilit=molest&start=45

We've already seen how he fabricated his daughter, why does he have a need to lie?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 16, 2010, 02:18:25 PM
Here he not only further acknowledges his sons existence and death, but makes fun of it:

Quote
Report this postReply with quoteRe: "TheWho"'s True Identity
by TheWho » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:18 am

Why did you say that, who?


Rudy Bentz is a sex offender,murderer and torturer.

Yes, I did see his resume, I think it is also on Linkedin also.


Rudy Bentz, your ally, runner of the gulags called CEDU and academy at swift river. As are YOU, through your complicity with him.

I miss those days, has anyone heard how he is doing?



Was it sad looking at the corpse of your son?

I actually couldn’t make it. I was getting a complimentary trip from Aspen. But I had it filmed, I plan to watch it this summer.


I bet you thought "great marketing opprotunity."

I am not a betting man. I saw the opportunity and the money that came in from the first obit was amazing!! Imagine how much I could make if both kids died. A parents dream!! It was a sure thing.


Your son felt such pain because of you.

I know isn’t it great!! I wish ASR would take more pictures.


You degraded and murdered him.

We all have to die someday!!! Degradation is just part of the journey.



You had him sexually abused.

I called ahead to make sure they could do it right!!


and SUVs (stripped searched) Maybe the guards fondled him extra? --they usually do.

They better have, I paid extra for that!! Did you hear that they didn’t? I would be disappointed, maybe sue... they cashed the check!!!



I bet that thought appeals to you.

Ahhhh... you know me well!!!


http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27884&p=336599&hilit=sexually#p336599
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 16, 2010, 02:29:31 PM
Here John creates a fake persona (lie) and ridicules and dismisses a girls report of being sexually abused in a program:

Quote
Re: Katies Story
by TheWho » Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:23 pm

Deprogrammed wrote:
NeilW wrote:
So what if I am a parent, does that make me bad? I come to fornits for good reasons. When a kid posts their story of what they claim happened in a program, someone needs to play devils advocate and question their story. I do this through direct confrontation, or humor. If a kid says they were sexually abused, I might make a joke about it. I know for a fact sexual abuse doesn't happen in programs, so I don't see the issue with making it into a humurous situation.
If some kid decides to list the abuses directed against them, I might copy the list then point out which individual actions of abuse amuse me the most, and which one's are my favorites. You have to remember, abuse doesn't happen in programs. When some of you claim that it does, I know you are lying and I know pointing it out will make you upset. Then I can point out how venemous you are, and go to bed feeling like I made a difference in the world for good.

I'm not going to get upset or angry either. In fact I am going to remain incredibly calm while I tell you Mr. Dearest Neil, that you are a sick, sick, sick fuck.
That is all.
-DP

Sorry everyone, a troll hijacked my name and making some havoc. Guess thats what I get for not opening up an account.

NeilW


http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=27274&p=329784&hilit=sexually#p329784
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 16, 2010, 02:47:38 PM
Here John tries to criticize another poster for posting anonymously or posting under other user names:

Quote
Remember that you are anonymous yourself, Ajax. Why do you cower behind a false name? If you were being truthful you would have nothing to hide and would post honestly under your name.

http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24460&p=337817&hilit=Ajax#p337817

He ignores the fact that he routinely does this himself. Why do you have to lie John?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 16, 2010, 02:58:18 PM
So why do you have such a need to lie Whooter John?

You can't argue the points of this industry not being abusive, so instead you simply lie about the people who are beating you.

You accuse them of molesting or abusing their own children. You question their educational backround. You accuse them of making up their reports of abuse. Even in my own instance you became so enraged over all the times I've proven you wrong and shamed you, you lie and try and pretend I was locked up in HLA for less than the year I spent there. When you get really desperate you even try and question my sexuality, all because of your own sick mindset. You never have any evidence or information to back up your claims. You just start throwing wild punches all because you can't stand to accept this industry you work for has been proven to be abusive.

Deal with it John.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 16, 2010, 05:51:21 PM
Just to recap to this point, I believe what we are hearing mostly is that people use the word “Kidnap” to describe being escorted because “Escort Service” doesn’t sound abusive enough.  Many here feel uncomfortable telling other people they were escorted to a program so they embellish their story to replace escort with kidnap.

The one thing I still have a hard time understanding is that I have read that many survivors complain about not being taken seriously about their stories and being viewed as just druggies with little credibility.  If this is the thought here then why would survivors jeopardize their credibility further by not telling the truth or embellishing their stories?  I would think it would be just the opposite and they would work that much harder to build up their credibility.  Keeping communication clear, consistent and honest would go a long way in establishing this.

On a side note:
I don’t want to derail this thread with off topic arguments so I responded to one of Bruces posts over here:
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31442&p=384135#p384135)

We can continue in that thread if you like.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 16, 2010, 06:33:43 PM
Tell us John, if you were woken up in the middle of the night, handcuffed by strangers, thrown into a car and taken to an undisclosed location what would you call it?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 16, 2010, 08:03:40 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Tell us Whooter, if you were woken up in the middle of the night, handcuffed by strangers, thrown into a car and taken to an undisclosed location what would you call it?

I would call it frightening as all hell.  I would probably feel like I was kidnapped and maybe going to be held for ransom.

But if later on I found out that an escort service was hired to take me to a rehab because my mother was too frail to take me and I would have resisted her attempts I would not continue to tell people that I was kidnapped.

I would tell people that my mother hired an escort service to take me to rehab and they scared the bejesus out of me and I thought I was being kidnapped until they explained what was happening.  but I wouldnt spend my life lying to people trying to make them think I was actually kidnapped.  It just wouldn't be right and would hurt my credibility when they found out that no kidnappings ever occurred in my town and that I was lying.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 16, 2010, 08:15:22 PM
Well under that same logic lets imagine this situation:

Your parents are seperated and in a heated custody battle. Your father has been awarded sole custody, but your mother goes on the run and takes you with. Your father tracks you down and not wanting to have your mother arrested sends in an agency to enter your home, and take you in the middle of the night. No explination is given to you until you get to your father.

Is it kidnapping?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 16, 2010, 08:35:41 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Well under that same logic lets imagine this situation:

Your parents are seperated and in a heated custody battle. Your father has been awarded sole custody, but your mother goes on the run and takes you with. Your father tracks you down and not wanting to have your mother arrested sends in an agency to enter your home, and take you in the middle of the night. No explination is given to you until you get to your father.

Is it kidnapping?

No it would not be kidnapping, the agency explains the situation to the child and quickly takes control of the situation so that the child and parents cannot have a confrontation.  The agency will not enter the home without setting it up with the parent(s) ahead of time.  The child typically watches movies, snacks and is even allowed to smoke if they like until they get to their destination.  The people are trained to make sure the child feels safe and knows what is going on.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 17, 2010, 11:06:38 AM
No explination given, no conversation had with the other parent in question.

Is it kidnapping.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 17, 2010, 11:25:47 AM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
No explination given, no conversation had with the other parent in question.

Is it kidnapping.

If it were an escort service they contact the parent in the home ahead of time and set up a time.  It is typically in the middle of the night.  The parent lets the employees into the home and lets them know where the childs room is.  After a brief deescalation the situation is explained to the child.  

RB, what you can do is check some of the escort Service web sites to verify the process used.   The web sites do not use the words Kidnapping at all.  At least not in the ones that I reviewed.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 17, 2010, 12:09:13 PM
What you're refusing to do is consider this from the childs perspective. A child who is snatched out of his bed, handcuffed, and taken in a strangers car and never told where he's going till he gets there is going to feel kidnapped. He's going to describe it the same way. He has no choice in the matter so the situation and feelings involved are going to be similar. To call it that is not a lie.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 17, 2010, 12:24:17 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
What you're refusing to do is consider this from the childs perspective. A child who is snatched out of his bed, handcuffed, and taken in a strangers car and never told where he's going till he gets there is going to feel kidnapped. He's going to describe it the same way. He has no choice in the matter so the situation and feelings involved are going to be similar. To call it that is not a lie.

I agree that it feels like the child was kidnapped.  I would feel the same way.  But the child will realize after talking to the people or the parents later on that it was an escort service.  So when telling the story they should avoid lying and just tell the truth about what occured.

Its like the guy who was shot in a hunting accident.  He just feels the bullet hit him and doesnt know what happened to him.  he is scared that he is going to die and thinks he was shot on purpose or by terrorists.  But after he wakes up in the hospital and finds out it was a hunting accident it would be lying to tell people he was shot by terrorists.

Maybe a better way to approach this is to say "I was escorted to the program via an escort service but I was really scared and thought I was being kidnapped" This would be more accurate and would save the person credibility.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 17, 2010, 12:46:27 PM
kid·nap? ?/?k?dnæp/  Show Spelled
[kid-nap]  Show IPA
 
–verb (used with object), -napped or -naped, -nap·ping or -nap·ing.  
to steal, carry off, or abduct by force [/b]or fraud, esp. for use as a hostage or to extract ransom.
Use kidnapping in a Sentence
See images of kidnapping
Search kidnapping on the Web

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1675–85; kid1  + nap,  var. of nab

—Related forms
kid·nap·pee, kid·nap·ee, noun
kid·nap·per, kid·nap·er, noun
un·kid·naped, adjective
un·kid·napped, adjective


—Can be confused: ? hijack, kidnap, shanghai, skyjack.


—Synonyms
seize, bear off, bear away.


http://http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kidnapping

Mystery solved. It's kidnapping.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 17, 2010, 12:48:44 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
What you're refusing to do is consider this from the childs perspective. A child who is snatched out of his bed, handcuffed, and taken in a strangers car and never told where he's going till he gets there is going to feel kidnapped. He's going to describe it the same way. He has no choice in the matter so the situation and feelings involved are going to be similar. To call it that is not a lie.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you Robert that the child may feel like there being kidnapped. But in all actuality they are not. They are not by their parents definition or by the judicial system of this country.
What we fail to explain here is the terror many kids put there parents or parent through (including siblings) entire families are held hostage (so to speak) by this one out of control child. Outside of being picked up by a escort service the next usual step is the police. I will tell you they start their aggressive reactions with the police and they will not like what the police do, to deal with it.
At some point in time Robert, I hope we can finally start talking about the thousands of children who do need the help some of these programs provide.
I think at times some of you here can not identify with the thousands of other kids who do need help.
I am very sorry your parents made a bad mistake with you and placed you in treatment of any kind. I mean that, I am also sorry you ended up at HLA. I know what it is like to be at a program that is abusive.
I also know with a little investigation you will find there are programs out there that are legitimately helping kids.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 17, 2010, 01:55:11 PM
It fits the definition of kidnapping. So at this point we will simply have to agree to disagree. I ran into a similar situation with Whooter a few years ago. He refused to accept the difference between a legal definition, and what comes out of a dictionary. He claimed that because ASR fit the dictionary definition of a school it should be considered as such, even though it did not fit the legal definition of one. I am simply using his own standards now. The situation kids who were taken by escorts are describing fits the dictionary definition of the word kidnapping. The fact that it may notfit the legal definition (still arguable) is moot.

That being the case it is apparent these kids are not lying when they say they were kidnapped. Since that has now been settled what other subjects do you feel they have lied about?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 17, 2010, 02:03:22 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
It fits the definition of kidnapping. So at this point we will simply have to agree to disagree.

In reality it is an Escort Service.  The kids can easily look it up to verify once they get home from their program.

But I understand that many disagree with this and that is what these forums are for is to discuss the issues.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 17, 2010, 02:13:28 PM
By that standard if a kidnapper calls himself something else is he no longer a kidnapper?

A person can call it whatever he likes, according to the dictionary, and your standards, it's kidnapping.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 17, 2010, 02:23:53 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
By that standard if a kidnapper calls himself something else is he no longer a kidnapper?

A person can call it whatever he likes, according to the dictionary, and your standards, it's kidnapping.

You need to look at the business model itself.  If they go outside of their model and start kidnapping people then I think it would warrant a call to 911 or the FBI.  But the parents sign over legal custody to these people to allow them to transport the child to the program.  Kidnappers that I have read about dont ask the parents for a waiver.

I think we would need to see some evidence that these people have been arrested for kidnapping.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 17, 2010, 02:29:07 PM
Not every kidnapper is arrested. Plenty of them get away with it. Doesn't change what they did though.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 17, 2010, 02:52:48 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
It fits the definition of kidnapping. So at this point we will simply have to agree to disagree. I ran into a similar situation with Whooter a few years ago. He refused to accept the difference between a legal definition, and what comes out of a dictionary. He claimed that because ASR fit the dictionary definition of a school it should be considered as such, even though it did not fit the legal definition of one. I am simply using his own standards now. The situation kids who were taken by escorts are describing fits the dictionary definition of the word kidnapping. The fact that it may notfit the legal definition (still arguable) is moot.

That being the case it is apparent these kids are not lying when they say they were kidnapped. Since that has now been settled what other subjects do you feel they have lied about?

Robert, there is no "agree to disagree" because you don't make laws and you were not the parent that authorized the escort. I am not going to argue with you at all. Because what you have to say about this subject has little credence, it would not hold up in any court in America, what the heck are you going to say to the judge, Websters Dictionary says this, like Websters has more authority then our laws.
(The fact that it may not fit the legal definition (still arguable) is moot.) Robert this sentence does not even make sense. All your doing here is showing your stubbornness.
Solution, change the law and change parents minds.
Which is not going to happen because some children do become overly aggressive to the point parents can not control them, hence, in comes the escort service.

Robert, you are not lying by definition, you are misrepresenting the facts of this subject. We could settle this if your  unyielding attitude would change a little.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 17, 2010, 03:10:33 PM
It is no different than the fact that ASR would not be considered a school in a court of law. Despite whatever the programs supporters might have claimed, it simply did not fit the legal definition.

Whooter started this thread, I am simply using his own standards in the conversation. This is not an attack, or playing games by any means, I'm simply employing the same tactics used earlier. According to Whooter if something fits the dictionary's definition of a term, then the fact that it may not fit the legal definition simply does not matter.

Under that standard it is reasonable for a child who is escorted to a program under those conditions kidnapping.

Do you disagree?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: DannyB II on October 17, 2010, 03:41:41 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
It is no different than the fact that ASR would not be considered a school in a court of law. Despite whatever the programs supporters might have claimed, it simply did not fit the legal definition.

Whooter started this thread, I am simply using his own standards in the conversation. This is not an attack, or playing games by any means, I'm simply employing the same tactics used earlier. According to Whooter if something fits the dictionary's definition of a term, then the fact that it may not fit the legal definition simply does not matter.

Under that standard it is reasonable for a child who is escorted to a program under those conditions kidnapping.

Do you disagree?

Robert, my name is Danny. Would it be OK, if you could answer as Robert.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 17, 2010, 03:45:15 PM
If I could answer as Robert? I'm not sure what you mean.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 17, 2010, 04:30:22 PM
If we look at the escort services themselves they don’t mention kidnapping as part of their service.  There has not been one instance of a person being arrested for this activity nor an open investigation.  No amber alerts.  Besides a few people’s words here on fornits there is no evidence that any kidnapping has occurred which resulted in a child ending up in a program.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 17, 2010, 04:32:44 PM
Again, you're ignoring that a person may call it whatever they like. It doesnt change that it fits the dictionary definition.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 17, 2010, 04:45:31 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Again, you're ignoring that a person may call it whatever they like. It doesnt change that it fits the dictionary definition.

Exactly, RB, thats my point.  People here can call events anything they want.  Being forced to clean their room can be called abusive, being taken to school by escort service can be called Kidnapping, having to stay in their room can be called "Isolation".

But by doing this they risk their credibility.  That is the point I am trying to make.  People shouldn't call things anything they want if they are going to be viewed as credible.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 17, 2010, 05:07:22 PM
Quote
Exactly, RB, thats my point. People here can call events anything they want. Being forced to clean their room can be called abusive, being taken to school by escort service can be called Kidnapping, having to stay in their room can be called "Isolation".

But by doing this they risk their credibility. That is the point I am trying to make. People shouldn't call things anything they want if they are going to be viewed as credible.

Maybe, but many of the claims the survivors make on here fit not only the dictionary definition, but the legal definition of it as well. Being physically beaten, made to perform back breaking labor for hours on end, having your food rationed, be screamed at incessantly, being spit at and told youre a horrible person, kept in substandard or disgusting living conditions, having your sleep deprived, given hack therapy, having your communication restricted, told "we won't let you go until you give in and agree with us", it all falls under the legal definition of abuse, and it all happens in programs.

The same way being kept in a room alone for days on end with no outside contact fits the legal definition of isolation.

I'll tell you what, if you can find a post made from a person on here who was an actual survivor claiming that they were made to wash dishes, or sent to their room and are calling it abuse then I'll agree with you. Until then I've never seen nor heard of a survivor being such a baby over something so trivial.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 17, 2010, 05:23:48 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"

Maybe, but many of the claims the survivors make on here fit not only the dictionary definition, but the legal definition of it as well. Being physically beaten, made to perform back breaking labor for hours on end, having your food rationed, be screamed at incessantly, being spit at and told youre a horrible person, kept in substandard or disgusting living conditions, having your sleep deprived, given hack therapy, having your communication restricted, told "we won't let you go until you give in and agree with us", it all falls under the legal definition of abuse, and it all happens in programs.

There is no doubt in my mind that kids have been abused in programs.  I have read enough of the stories and claims inside and outside of fornits to conclude that some programs are abusive.  But what drives a survivor to embellish their stories with Gulag,inmate, prison etc.?  The GAO investigators or the families never mentioned these descriptors.

If someone screamed and spit at me I would want to say it was Jim Morrison at XYZ Program who did this to me.  Be honest and straight forward and factual about it.  To say I was abused by prison guards while I was an inmate at the local Gulag just lacks credibility to me and I think to most people who would hear this.

Why embellish it further to tarnish your own credibility?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 17, 2010, 05:57:04 PM
If the shoe fits......

The fact is the terms these kids are using are appropriate for the situation. They aren't exaggerating, they're simply using relatable words and situations to describe their expereince.

Any luck on finding a post where a child called washing dishes or being sent to his room abuse?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 17, 2010, 06:01:08 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
If the shoe fits......

The fact is the terms these kids are using are appropriate for the situation. They aren't exaggerating, they're simply using relatable words and situations to describe their expereince.

Any luck on finding a post where a child called washing dishes or being sent to his room abuse?

 :tup:  :tup:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 17, 2010, 06:27:33 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
If the shoe fits......

The fact is the terms these kids are using are appropriate for the situation. They aren't exaggerating, they're simply using relatable words and situations to describe their expereince.

We have come full circle.......and that is why I started this thread.  I think that survivors are hurting themselves and their credibility by using certain words to describe what happened to them, when in fact the events did not occur.  I understand that you do not agree with me and that is okay.  But maybe someone reading this will understand the next time he is speaking with someone about his/her experience that they choose their words carefully.  Words that reflect themselves and how they want to be portrayed.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 17, 2010, 07:28:45 PM
Quote
by using certain words to describe what happened to them, when in fact the events did not occur.

That's what you keep missing Whooter. The events did occur.

Were you able ever to find a post from someone claiming washing dishes or being sent to their room was abusive?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 17, 2010, 07:52:43 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"

That's what you keep missing Whooter. The events did occur.

We disagree here and thats okay.

Quote
Were you able ever to find a post from someone claiming washing dishes or being sent to their room was abusive?

I never planned on looking.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 17, 2010, 10:12:12 PM
Quote
We disagree here and thats okay.

Yes it is okay. However at the end of the day I was there and you were not. I experienced these things first hand, and I witnessed them happening to others, you did not. My testimony still bears more weight than yours in these matters.

Quote
I never planned on looking.


Then it would appear as if you don't have much to go on. If you can't provide an instance of a survivor actually lying about being abused, or even exaggerating, then why are you bringing any of this up?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 17, 2010, 11:08:18 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"

Yes it is okay. However at the end of the day I was there and you were not. I experienced these things first hand, and I witnessed them happening to others, you did not. My testimony still bears more weight than yours in these matters.

I dont agree with you on this.

Quote
Then it would appear as if you don't have much to go on. If you can't provide an instance of a survivor actually lying about being abused, or even exaggerating, then why are you bringing any of this up?

You are missing the whole point of this thread, RB.  I am not out to prove people are lying about being abused.  I understand the kids have been abused in these places.  I was pointing out that when posters exaggerate about being sent to a Gulag or being kidnapped that it hurts their credibility.  If they follow up with a story that they were abused then they may not be believed .  The person listening may feel they have to take it with a grain of salt.

I think it is risky to combine exaggeration with facts because it is hard to differentiate where the exaggeration ends and the facts begins.

If a person is truly hurt in one of these places why not just state the facts... xyz escort Service, xyz Program, Jim Palny abused me etc.  Why add all the drama about kidnapping, prisons and Gulags?  What is gained by it?


...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 18, 2010, 11:32:39 PM
Quote
You are missing the whole point of this thread, RB. I am not out to prove people are lying about being abused. I understand the kids have been abused in these places. I was pointing out that when posters exaggerate about being sent to a Gulag or being kidnapped that it hurts their credibility. If they follow up with a story that they were abused then they may not be believed . The person listening may feel they have to take it with a grain of salt.

I think it is risky to combine exaggeration with facts because it is hard to differentiate where the exaggeration ends and the facts begins.

If a person is truly hurt in one of these places why not just state the facts... xyz escort Service, xyz Program, Jim Palny abused me etc. Why add all the drama about kidnapping, prisons and Gulags? What is gained by it?

I've got to say I'm surprised to hear you say this. It wasn't so long ago that you claimed that all kids who claimed to have been abused in a program were lying. Now you're claiming that they have been abused? Why the turn around?

As to your other comments, again it isn't an exaggeration. If a kid uses a relatable term to describe what he experienced or how he was abused he's not lying. You created this thread in effort to answer your charge that survivors lie, yet now you're claiming that you're not trying to prove that they do lie. Which is it?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 19, 2010, 07:34:39 AM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Quote
You are missing the whole point of this thread, RB. I am not out to prove people are lying about being abused. I understand the kids have been abused in these places. I was pointing out that when posters exaggerate about being sent to a Gulag or being kidnapped that it hurts their credibility. If they follow up with a story that they were abused then they may not be believed . The person listening may feel they have to take it with a grain of salt.

I think it is risky to combine exaggeration with facts because it is hard to differentiate where the exaggeration ends and the facts begins.

If a person is truly hurt in one of these places why not just state the facts... xyz escort Service, xyz Program, Jim Palny abused me etc. Why add all the drama about kidnapping, prisons and Gulags? What is gained by it?

I've got to say I'm surprised to hear you say this. It wasn't so long ago that you claimed that all kids who claimed to have been abused in a program were lying. Now you're claiming that they have been abused? Why the turn around?
Well, I have always made it clear that some of the programs are abusive and kids do get abused in these places.  I just contend that the number is very small.  I have written a lot of posts here on fornits but I think you would be hard pressed to find one that says no kids have been abused in programs unless it was tongue-in-cheek.

As to your other comments, again it isn't an exaggeration. If a kid uses a relatable term to describe what he experienced or how he was abused he's not lying. You created this thread in effort to answer your charge that survivors lie, yet now you're claiming that you're not trying to prove that they do lie. Which is it?[/quote]

I think in effect the advice will help survivors credibility. I have  heard that they are viewed as lying druggies from survivors themselves here on fornits.  I was pointing out that one of the problems is that they exaggerate too much and should be more truthful with the description of the events in the program.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 19, 2010, 08:53:41 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
I was pointing out that one of the problems is that they exaggerate too much and should be more truthful

Quote from: "Whooter"
I fabricated a son

 :rofl:  :roflmao:  :rofl:  :roflmao:  :rofl:  :roflmao:  :feedtrolls:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Samara on October 19, 2010, 09:19:54 AM
I can think of no program survivor who has lied about the program. Program stories are all too consistent.

This whole thread title is a cruel insult. The reason survivors connected in the first place is because we recognize all the experiences we shared in fraudulent, abusive programs. There were too many familiarities - eerily so. Why this thread is even allowed from someone who perpetuates this type of therapeutic abuse is baffling. Especially someone has has created lies and personas of Titanic proportion.  Someone who makes a mockery of rape and taunts survivors in the exact same way as his Cult Guru predecessors. (Another common program tactic.) To have this same person - who has posted 10,000 times - stories of unbelievable convolution - admonish survivors to "stop exaggerating" is pretty sick.  It is bewildering to have the Grand Cockroach of Liars offer any sort of advisement on honesty. Although seriously, can Whooter win an award for persistence?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 19, 2010, 08:39:44 PM
Quote
Well we originally estimated it to be under 1% which is below the national level, and if you could blow these figures out of the water you would, with the figures you have, so we can safely assume the estimate is well below 1% since you are sitting on your information.


http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16007&p=252507&hilit=originally#p252507


This doesnt seem very middle of the road Whooter.

Quote
I think in effect the advice will help survivors credibility. I have heard that they are viewed as lying druggies from survivors themselves here on fornits. I was pointing out that one of the problems is that they exaggerate too much and should be more truthful with the description of the events in the program.

You speak as if you don't consistently post under various guises and backrounds. Again, these kids aren't exaggerating anything, you however have.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 19, 2010, 09:16:46 PM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Quote
Well we originally estimated it to be under 1% which is below the national level, and if you could blow these figures out of the water you would, with the figures you have, so we can safely assume the estimate is well below 1% since you are sitting on your information.


http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16007&p=252507&hilit=originally#p252507


This doesnt seem very middle of the road Whooter. ]/quote]

Why are you questioning that it would not be below 1%.  You havent presented any argument that states it may be above that number.  I dont think it exceeds this number and I dont think many on fornits would think it is much higher either.  no one has disputed this except yourself, what is your point Bruce?



Quote
You speak as if you don't consistently post under various guises and backrounds. Again, these kids aren't exaggerating anything, you however have.

I have been able to expose one (just one) Anti-program poster here on fornits (who obviously represents the sentiments of the other posters here) and it turned out that he lied about his past posts.  He claimed to have never posted as a guest and I showed he had 3,500 guest posts and many aliases.  He posted as children, parents, survivors pretending to be abused etc.

If vast numbers of anti-program people like yourself come out to support his actions then that just leads us to believe that you would also be posting the same way.  Am I not correct in my thinking?  So what posts are we to believe?  How many of these posts of abuse are for real and how many are faked like DJ did?  If people thought what he did was wrong and DJ does not represent what they stand for then they would have said that but that wasnt the case now was it?
Give it some thought.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 19, 2010, 11:05:11 PM
I'll repost this here because it applies to this thread as well:

Once again you are using flawed logic. You're using conjecture and assumptions to claim what you believe others are doing. The fact of the matter is you have no real basis. Can you point to a post of someone supporting DJ's actions?

Wait a second, I'll do your homework for you......well rather I'll take a page from your playbook.


DJ saw the games you were playing by posting under various guises and backrounds. He simply sought to "add balance" and "even the scales". DJ is a moderate middle of the road poster who was being trolled by you. He showed that you have more than 10,000 posts after he exposed you and all the games you play.


Using your logic we can safely assume that given that there are only a small number of pro program posters like yourself, and given that none of them have condemned your actions, it stands to reason they are all playing the same games you are.

Agreed?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 20, 2010, 06:29:44 AM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
I'll repost this here because it applies to this thread as well:

Once again you are using flawed logic. You're using conjecture and assumptions to claim what you believe others are doing. The fact of the matter is you have no real basis. Can you point to a post of someone supporting DJ's actions?

Wait a second, I'll do your homework for you......well rather I'll take a page from your playbook.


DJ saw the games you were playing by posting under various guises and backrounds. He simply sought to "add balance" and "even the scales". DJ is a moderate middle of the road poster who was being trolled by you. He showed that you have more than 10,000 posts after he exposed you and all the games you play.


Using your logic we can safely assume that given that there are only a small number of pro program posters like yourself, and given that none of them have condemned your actions, it stands to reason they are all playing the same games you are.

Agreed?

Exactly, Bruce, sometimes it is easier to see the point if you flip it around and take a look from a different perspective.

If fornits were a predominately pro-program extremist forum and we examined a pro-program posters posts and found that this person was writing posts pretending to be a student who did well in programs and invented parents who had great out comes.  Two things could happen:

1.     the majority of the people would respond by saying what he did was wrong or
2.   they could back him and say he did a good job.
   
If number 1 was true we could conclude that this activity does not reflect that of the average poster on fornits.  If number two were true we could conclude that many people did the same thing as he did and a good portion of the posts by all members of fornits were lies.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 20, 2010, 10:16:38 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
I think in effect the advice will help survivors credibility.

No one has asked for, nor do we want or need you advice so you can stop now.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 20, 2010, 10:46:52 AM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
I think in effect the advice will help survivors credibility.

No one has asked for, nor do we want or need you advice so you can stop now.

Hmmmm....
We?  Who is we Anne?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 20, 2010, 10:51:01 AM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
I think in effect the advice will help survivors credibility.

No one has asked for, nor do we want or need you advice so you can stop now.

Seconded.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Samara on October 20, 2010, 10:51:58 AM
Third-ed.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 20, 2010, 10:54:16 AM
Quote from: "Samara"
Third-ed.

That was a private joke.  Anne knows what I meant by it.  lol



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 20, 2010, 10:57:48 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
I think in effect the advice will help survivors credibility.

No one has asked for, nor do we want or need you advice so you can stop now.

Hmmmm....
We?  Who is we Anne?



Well, so far it's me, Samara and Shadyacres.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 20, 2010, 10:58:29 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Samara"
Third-ed.

That was a private joke.  Anne knows what I meant by it.  lol


Yes, and the "we" is your part, not mine.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 20, 2010, 10:59:59 AM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Samara"
Third-ed.

That was a private joke.  Anne knows what I meant by it.  lol


Yes, and the "we" is your part, not mine.

lol okay I'll let it slide.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Froderik on October 20, 2010, 11:01:09 AM
I'm tired of being tormented to hell.

Program people are paper pushing, money grubbing, soulless, conscienceless thieves and liars.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 20, 2010, 12:15:21 PM
Quote from: "Froderik"
I'm tired of being tormented to hell.

Program people are paper pushing, money grubbing, soulless, conscienceless thieves and liars.

Considering the topic of the thread you posted this in,Frod, what you really mean is:

You are energized and elated because:

Program people are considerate, non materialistic, religious, extremely honest people?




...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on October 20, 2010, 12:18:06 PM
Quote from: "Froderik"
I'm tired of being tormented to hell.

Program people are paper pushing, money grubbing, soulless, conscienceless thieves and liars.

Yes, they are, as exemplified by the previous poster.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Froderik on October 20, 2010, 12:22:04 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Froderik"
I'm tired of being tormented to hell.

Program people are paper pushing, money grubbing, soulless, conscienceless thieves and liars.

Considering the topic of the thread you posted this in,Frod, what you really mean is:

You are energized and elated because:

Program people are considerate, non materialistic, religious, extremely honest people?

Hate to admit it, but that was funny.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 20, 2010, 07:11:36 PM
Quote from: "AuntieEm2"
My experience was that my niece told the truth about her family/family dynamics, and her honesty got her sent to a program.

Meanwhile her parents were the liars and manipulators who, for example, lied to my niece and told her they were going on a family vacation, when in fact she was handed over to goons who transported her to a program. My niece was honest about being angry that they did this to her, while her parents wanted her to lie about her feelings and say she liked and needed the program.

Her parents lied to all of us when they said she would only be there for a few months, when she was there for more than 3 years with no home visit (although in fairness, I don't know if this was a lie told to them by the program). The program also told a whopper when they diagnosed her, absurdly, with Asperger's (she did not and does not have the symptoms).

Manipulation and lies were tools the parents and the program used to force conformity, while honesty and truth got my niece sent there and kept there.

I think this serves as a very good example on how to communicate to the general public how a child was handled and this also serves to help communicate my point at bit more.

".....when in fact she was handed over to goons who transported her to a program."

If AuntieEm2 had written that her niece was kidnapped and taken to a Gulag and placed in isolation for 3 years where she was cut off from society  and systematically tortured and brainwashed I think we would all agree that we could not be sure how long she spent in her program.  

We would ask ourselves: "Was the 3 years exaggerated the same as the kidnapping was ?"

The language that AuntieEm2 chose to use was open and honest and we can believe that "3 years" is not an exaggeration (in my opinion), whereas in the previous paragraph we would all doubt that she spent that long in a program at all based on the other exaggerations in the sentence.  We would probably conclude that she spent a few months there maybe tops.

so I think it is important to chose the words wisely and be accurate about what happened to you from start to finish.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: yeshadette21 on October 21, 2010, 06:07:45 AM
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Because if the child was threatening and tormenting his family to the point of they were seriously scared for their safety, then it is not kidnapping.
Hey, try this 2 cops walk in his bedroom snatch his butt drag him to the squad car throw his ass in the car and cart him off to jail. Is that kidnapping. No it is called going to jail, well call this going to a program.
Ya know not every story is a picture you have in your head.[/b]



Safety is everybody's concern in all phases of life. Children needs protection from people whom they believe they can get it. Perfect health condition is also needed by all children. We can all give it to them if we only know what to do.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 21, 2010, 11:51:40 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "AuntieEm2"
My experience was that my niece told the truth about her family/family dynamics, and her honesty got her sent to a program.

Meanwhile her parents were the liars and manipulators who, for example, lied to my niece and told her they were going on a family vacation, when in fact she was handed over to goons who transported her to a program. My niece was honest about being angry that they did this to her, while her parents wanted her to lie about her feelings and say she liked and needed the program.

Her parents lied to all of us when they said she would only be there for a few months, when she was there for more than 3 years with no home visit (although in fairness, I don't know if this was a lie told to them by the program). The program also told a whopper when they diagnosed her, absurdly, with Asperger's (she did not and does not have the symptoms).

Manipulation and lies were tools the parents and the program used to force conformity, while honesty and truth got my niece sent there and kept there.

I think this serves as a very good example on how to communicate to the general public how a child was handled and this also serves to help communicate my point at bit more.

".....when in fact she was handed over to goons who transported her to a program."

If AuntieEm2 had written that her niece was kidnapped and taken to a Gulag and placed in isolation for 3 years where she was cut off from society  and systematically tortured and brainwashed I think we would all agree that we could not be sure how long she spent in her program.  

We would ask ourselves: "Was the 3 years exaggerated the same as the kidnapping was ?"

The language that AuntieEm2 chose to use was open and honest and we can believe that "3 years" is not an exaggeration (in my opinion), whereas in the previous paragraph we would all doubt that she spent that long in a program at all based on the other exaggerations in the sentence.  We would probably conclude that she spent a few months there maybe tops.

so I think it is important to chose the words wisely and be accurate about what happened to you from start to finish.


I think you're getting too caught up in the words we've chosen to use.  On the rare occasions when I speak about this stuff outside of Fornits, I don't normally use the words you seem to be so hung up on.  Here, since it's a site mainly populated by survivors, I don't see it as the big issue that you do and quite frankly, I think you bring it up as more of a distraction and discrediting method than anything else.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Ursus on October 21, 2010, 05:33:45 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "AuntieEm2"
My experience was that my niece told the truth about her family/family dynamics, and her honesty got her sent to a program.

Meanwhile her parents were the liars and manipulators who, for example, lied to my niece and told her they were going on a family vacation, when in fact she was handed over to goons who transported her to a program. My niece was honest about being angry that they did this to her, while her parents wanted her to lie about her feelings and say she liked and needed the program.

Her parents lied to all of us when they said she would only be there for a few months, when she was there for more than 3 years with no home visit (although in fairness, I don't know if this was a lie told to them by the program). The program also told a whopper when they diagnosed her, absurdly, with Asperger's (she did not and does not have the symptoms).

Manipulation and lies were tools the parents and the program used to force conformity, while honesty and truth got my niece sent there and kept there.
I think this serves as a very good example on how to communicate to the general public how a child was handled and this also serves to help communicate my point at bit more.

".....when in fact she was handed over to goons who transported her to a program."

If AuntieEm2 had written that her niece was kidnapped and taken to a Gulag and placed in isolation for 3 years where she was cut off from society  and systematically tortured and brainwashed I think we would all agree that we could not be sure how long she spent in her program.  

We would ask ourselves: "Was the 3 years exaggerated the same as the kidnapping was ?"

The language that AuntieEm2 chose to use was open and honest and we can believe that "3 years" is not an exaggeration (in my opinion), whereas in the previous paragraph we would all doubt that she spent that long in a program at all based on the other exaggerations in the sentence.  We would probably conclude that she spent a few months there maybe tops.

so I think it is important to chose the words wisely and be accurate about what happened to you from start to finish.
I think you're getting too caught up in the words we've chosen to use.  On the rare occasions when I speak about this stuff outside of Fornits, I don't normally use the words you seem to be so hung up on.  Here, since it's a site mainly populated by survivors, I don't see it as the big issue that you do and quite frankly, I think you bring it up as more of a distraction and discrediting method than anything else.
Yep. I agree. Whooter just likes to twist folks' words into what they're not, and goad them into reacting with angry tirades. Must make him feel awfully superior, like ... "My sandcastle is bigger than your sandcastle!"   :D
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 21, 2010, 06:25:38 PM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "AuntieEm2"
My experience was that my niece told the truth about her family/family dynamics, and her honesty got her sent to a program.

Meanwhile her parents were the liars and manipulators who, for example, lied to my niece and told her they were going on a family vacation, when in fact she was handed over to goons who transported her to a program. My niece was honest about being angry that they did this to her, while her parents wanted her to lie about her feelings and say she liked and needed the program.

Her parents lied to all of us when they said she would only be there for a few months, when she was there for more than 3 years with no home visit (although in fairness, I don't know if this was a lie told to them by the program). The program also told a whopper when they diagnosed her, absurdly, with Asperger's (she did not and does not have the symptoms).

Manipulation and lies were tools the parents and the program used to force conformity, while honesty and truth got my niece sent there and kept there.
I think this serves as a very good example on how to communicate to the general public how a child was handled and this also serves to help communicate my point at bit more.

".....when in fact she was handed over to goons who transported her to a program."

If AuntieEm2 had written that her niece was kidnapped and taken to a Gulag and placed in isolation for 3 years where she was cut off from society  and systematically tortured and brainwashed I think we would all agree that we could not be sure how long she spent in her program.  

We would ask ourselves: "Was the 3 years exaggerated the same as the kidnapping was ?"

The language that AuntieEm2 chose to use was open and honest and we can believe that "3 years" is not an exaggeration (in my opinion), whereas in the previous paragraph we would all doubt that she spent that long in a program at all based on the other exaggerations in the sentence.  We would probably conclude that she spent a few months there maybe tops.

so I think it is important to chose the words wisely and be accurate about what happened to you from start to finish.
I think you're getting too caught up in the words we've chosen to use.  On the rare occasions when I speak about this stuff outside of Fornits, I don't normally use the words you seem to be so hung up on.  Here, since it's a site mainly populated by survivors, I don't see it as the big issue that you do and quite frankly, I think you bring it up as more of a distraction and discrediting method than anything else.
Yep. I agree. Whooter just likes to twist folks' words into what they're not, and goad them into reacting with angry tirades. Must make him feel awfully superior, like ... "My sandcastle is bigger than your sandcastle!"   :D


I'd have used a different descriptor :rofl: , but yup!   :seg2:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 21, 2010, 07:09:58 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


I'd have used a different descriptor :rofl: , but yup!   :seg2:

Ursus used the analogy of Sandcastles because he knows that Pro-program people are typically better endowed then the anti-program types in that area.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 21, 2010, 07:10:21 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


I'd have used a different descriptor :rofl: , but yup!   :seg2:

Ursus used the analogy of Sandcastles because he knows that Pro-program people are typically better endowed then the anti-program types in that area.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 21, 2010, 08:49:45 PM
Quote
Exactly, Bruce, sometimes it is easier to see the point if you flip it around and take a look from a different perspective.

If fornits were a predominately pro-program extremist forum and we examined a pro-program posters posts and found that this person was writing posts pretending to be a student who did well in programs and invented parents who had great out comes. Two things could happen:

1. the majority of the people would respond by saying what he did was wrong or
2. they could back him and say he did a good job.

If number 1 was true we could conclude that this activity does not reflect that of the average poster on fornits. If number two were true we could conclude that many people did the same thing as he did and a good portion of the posts by all members of fornits were lies.


"We" cannot conclude anything. You are guessing, based on nothing. You have no real reason to believe that other posters are playing the same game you played for years. You're just using your usual excuse of "others are doing it too!".

This is no different then any of the other numerous accusations you've made towards others without any evidence or basis. Most people refer to that aslying Whooter. Why do you do that?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 27, 2010, 06:47:07 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
So I'm new here, I've been sitting back reading posts here for a few weeks now. I have got to chime in on this stuff. As a survivor of one of the roughest programs out there I have a few things that just need to be said. First of all, there are definitely lies and fabrications by some people about the level of abuse and exactly what happened during their incarcerations. I have seen some posts on another topic that I witnessed personally, and the story was complete B.S. I 100% agree that the people out there lying about incidences of abuse need to reign it in and be honest. That being said, without any fabrication these programs are abusive and wrong. At least the one I was in. Judging from the fact that the people who ran my program (Brightway and Paradise Cove) are basically the same people running most of these programs (WWASPS), I don't discount the fact that abuse occurs, rampantly. Here's my issue. If you are a parent out there and you think that an out of control teen, and there are many variations as to what constitutes "out of control", answer me this. What do you think would happen if you hogtied your teen and locked him in a closet for a week, fed him one cup of rice and a cup of water a day, and if he "refused" to cooperate (CAT 4!!!) so you physically assaulted (I mean "restrained") him or her to the point of causing injury, that means even bruising, what do you think would happen to you?

Well, I'll tell you. You would go to Jail! You would not pass go, you would not get a chance to explain to CPS that this is for their own good, your ass would get locked up. So tell me why are these programs allowed to therapeutically abuse? Plain and simple, follow the money trail. If you were a billion dollar parent, you could afford to lobby some legislation to allow you to beat the hell out of your kid whenever you want.

What I'm saying is, at the least these programs are child abusers. My experience, beyond abuse. Fabrications are completely unnecessary, so the survivors out there please be straight shooters, the lies are only going to help the real criminals get away with their crimes.

Res ipsa loquitur

Thank you for your perspective, Gonzotherapy,  I agree with you and there are many ways for survivors to communicate what happened to them during their stay in a program without resorting to embellishing or lying.  It just really kills the credibility of the whole story and leaves the reader wondering what to believe.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 27, 2010, 11:00:06 PM
Quote
Thank you for your perspective, Gonzotherapy, I agree with you and there are many ways for survivors to communicate what happened to them during their stay in a program without resorting to embellishing or lying. It just really kills the credibility of the whole story and leaves the reader wondering what to believe.


Sort of how you lying and posting under various guises claiming success stories where none exists and fabricating a family? Funny how this random posters claims some random story was bs and you assume he's telling the truth. No word yet on which story he's referring to or even what makes him more credible over the original poster.

I'm also still waiting to hear on why you routinely lie about things on here.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 28, 2010, 05:36:13 PM
I will happily clarify, but before I do understand that I hate these programs. I was in Paradise Cove with Chris Sutton, didn't know him well, we played spades a few times but I never really got to know him. Any of you paying attention should know who Sutton is. The story I am referring to was posted in here a few years ago. It pertained to Brian Vaifanua throwing a puppy off of a cliff to terrorize a kid who was there. The story started out somewhat true and then somehow got completely convoluted.

I was there, what really happened was the dog got thrown off a cliff, not by Vaifanua, by one of the Samoan staff. The dog was absolutely not a puppy given to the kid they referred to. Even though Frederickson was way younger than most of us, 12 I think when this happened, and immature for his age ( he looked more like a 9 year old) there is no way in hell they would have let anyone have a puppy. The dog was some stray that wandered around the beaches. Steven was attached to it, and he did name the dog Monkey; but it was not his dog. And it was certainly not thrown off a cliff to terrorize him or anyone else. It was a mangy mutt, it looked diseased. If any of you have been to Mexico, or many third-world countries, they don't treat dogs like we do. They're not friends, they're just animals. And the cliff was more of a very steep hill, I doubt the dog even got hurt. The dog was whacked by a machete, I don't know who did that, but it still wandered around the beach with a giant gaping wound. Personally I wish they would have killed that dog, we had enough disease running around those beaches without having that nasty mutt around.

Regardless, there is no need to fabricate atrocitites done by these programs. Steven got hogtied regularly, stuck in iso for days at a time, that kid definitely did not belong there and what they did to him there was criminal. He got some of the worst treatment I have ever seen another person go through. Me, I did'nt suffer too much. If you were mentally strong enough to play the game, you could survive there. There were many there who were not, many kids driven crazy by the horrible treatment. If you have never seen someone who has lost their minds from abuse, let me tell you what would happen. As their minds went they started to care less and less about hygiene. It was a task to keep yourself clean there, we usually took three showers a day, in cold water. 10 seconds to get wet, go to the back of the line, 20 seconds to rinse off. If your parents didn't send you soap, you had to buy program soap, basically a bar of wax. If you did not attentively clean yourself and make sure to rinse off all the soap, first the laffa (ringworm) would set in, balls first, then armpits, and if you didn't take good care of that with their "medicine" (acid) that shit would keep spreading. Then of course the scabies, that was always a fun one. Even those of us who did our best to keep clean got this stuff because of the horribly unsanitary conditions. The crazy ones, they were itching infested messes.

That's not even beginning to mention the malnutrition and many other below par child safety issues that went on there. There are people who manage to think that this stuff needs embellished upon, trust me, it doesn't. What actually happened was criminal enough. My experience is that the people who do lie about the conditions are the ones who suffered the most, the ones who didn't bow down to the system and try to survive. Most likely they are lying because they feel the need to make sure that someone is listening, because they don't understand why this was allowed to happen. I excelled in the program, I made it to level three and was a family leader when I left, thank god my parents ran out of money because even the limited amount of brainwashing (and yes, brainwashing is exactly what they do) I succumbed to still took me years to shake off. I never even realized that what they were doing was not "help" it was torture. It was and continues to be wrong. If I ever run across one of the people who benefited from these scams, I wish them the best of luck, what goes around will come around. :soapbox:  :soapbox:  :soapbox:  :soapbox:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 28, 2010, 07:03:08 PM
That is a terrible story, GonzoTherapy, I am sorry you had to go thru that.  As to the lying aspect of your post, the stories do get people’s attention and maybe gains them a few minutes of gratification that people may feel sorry for them momentarily.  But I sense it goes beyond that.

There are so many reasons that people lie.  Some people inflate their grades on their resume because they are projecting themselves into a better job and feel justified doing so because they are worth more than the company is paying them.

Some kids become accustomed to lying in their teen years (and earlier) to get themselves out of trouble and when they learn that it works then they continue this habit, many throughout their lives to avoid accountability for their actions, blaming fellow employees for their screw-ups etc.

My sense is that the program wasn’t as bad as what they felt they went through.  They don’t have a story of abuse or a specific smoking gun that will communicate to the reader that the program was torturous.  So they fabricate a story about being kidnapped and taken to this dark place.  Everyone knows that kidnapping rarely ends well and is a good story line and is also an instant attention getter.

Maybe some survivors try to one-up each other and say I was abused more than you?

But my question still remains “Why would a person jeopardize their credibility by lying if the person was really abused?”  Maybe they have nothing to lose because they were never abused to begin with.  But this does a huge disservice to those few survivors who were truly abused during their stay in a program.

I am not sure there is a single answer.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 28, 2010, 07:25:17 PM
That's all great Whooter, you sound like someone who believes they are insightful, you sound alot like the program staff. As far as you empathizing with my suffering, I don't need your empathy. I barely even touched on all that was wrong about the program. The physical abuse was nothing compared to the mental, and there is nobody, NOT ONE PERSON, who went to that program and was not abused. They did not adhere to International guidelines on child care by a long shot. I can't speak for other programs as I was only in Brighway and Paradise Cove, but I can certainly say that the organization that ran my program (WWASPS) runs alot of these other ones; and there M.O. is lie, cheat, steal, and abuse. So while there may be embellishments, and I am not for that, they are embellishments on abuse. Not made up abuse, embellished abuse. I don't know what you are, but my insight is that you don't know jack shit about programs or survivors, because you have never been in a program and had to survive it.

Most of what I see in your writing is somebody who believes they are an authority. More power to you. Maybe you should start believing you are superman and take a flying leap into that steaming pile you're shoveling. Seriously, you sound exactly like someone who thinks they know something. I guess one benefit of these programs is learning how to identify bullshit.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Ursus on October 28, 2010, 07:56:19 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
That's all great Whooter, you sound like someone who believes they are insightful, you sound alot like the program staff. As far as you empathizing with my suffering, I don't need your empathy. I barely even touched on all that was wrong about the program. The physical abuse was nothing compared to the mental, and there is nobody, NOT ONE PERSON, who went to that program and was not abused. They did not adhere to International guidelines on child care by a long shot. I can't speak for other programs as I was only in Brighway and Paradise Cove, but I can certainly say that the organization that ran my program (WWASPS) runs alot of these other ones; and there M.O. is lie, cheat, steal, and abuse. So while there may be embellishments, and I am not for that, they are embellishments on abuse. Not made up abuse, embellished abuse. I don't know what you are, but my insight is that you don't know jack shit about programs or survivors, because you have never been in a program and had to survive it.

Most of what I see in your writing is somebody who believes they are an authority. More power to you. Maybe you should start believing you are superman and take a flying leap into that steaming pile you're shoveling. Seriously, you sound exactly like someone who thinks they know something. I guess one benefit of these programs is learning how to identify bullshit.
Well. Now THAT was a refreshing read!  :D
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Nick08f1 on October 28, 2010, 08:32:39 PM
My older brother spent his last 6 months before turning 18 in Tranquility Bay, and how dare you, Whooter, diminish his horrible experiences by your ignorant ramblings. He is not the same person in any shape or form. He's 26 years old now, and he's an alpha-male who's afraid of the dark now. You think my brother doesn't want to point out the people that abused him and make them liable for their actions? Damn right he does, but the ones doing the abuse in Jamaica weren't walking around wearing name tags so he can point them out. I'm not going to go into the abuse that he told me about because you'll just say he's a liar, but I worked with someone else who went there (the son of the bastard mom who bought into the bull shit and recommended TB to my parents) and his mentality is just as messed up from abuse that he told me about also. They must have some great brainstorming sessions in these "schools" (which you aren't allowed to talk in) to all have corroborating stories. The fact that the Kays and others profit off of the destruction of America's youth is mind-blowing, and any congressman who wants to help legislate against it is perceived as having a personal vendetta against the GOP.

On another note, I'm going to start another thread because I think my brother would do well if he was able to talk with others that had similar experiences and I had only came across this forum today. My brother is not very computer literate so he doesn't realize that there are mediums like this out there.

Whooter. Get a life.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Nick08f1 on October 28, 2010, 08:45:12 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"

so I think it is important to chose the words wisely...



...

Why would YOU call them survivors? You are conceding abuse went on by your very own choice of words. If it was more like a wholesome treatment program like you said... you would be called alumni and graduates and so forth.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 28, 2010, 09:16:34 PM
Nick08f1 and Gonzo therapy, my hands are tied here.  The title of the thread is “Why do survivors need to  lie?”.  If we go off of this topic then we will all receive a warning.  So based on this I extracted the portions of Gonzotherapys post which referred to lying and embellishing and focused on those.  I went off topic saying I was sorry for what you went through and got slapped down for that (I should have kept to the lying portion only).  I extended courtesy to your off topic posts both you and Nick08f1 and respond the best I can in keeping within the topic.

Quote
My older brother spent his last 6 months before turning 18 in Tranquility Bay, and how dare you, Whooter, diminish his horrible experiences by your ignorant ramblings.

Nick08f1 you obviously have not read through his thread or you would have held your rage for someone else.  We have been discussing various subjects including why people say they were kidnapped when in fact they were transported to a program via escort service and why survivors need to embellish stories of their time spent in programs.  Nick08f1 I suggest you take your own advice and start another thread instead of trying to derail this one with your rage.  I have had no knowledge of your brother or the details of his time in TB up until this point so I dont know how I could possibly diminish his experience.

Quote
Why would YOU call them survivors? You are conceding abuse went on by your very own choice of words. If it was more like a wholesome treatment program like you said... you would be called alumni and graduates and so forth.

You have a point, they should be called alumni and graduates.  I have been posting here so long that I have fallen in with the terminology a bit.  But I have seen bumper stickers which say “I have survived ___________” ,  so the title is fairly benign and not very misleading in my opinion.  Programs are unique enough to form a subset of people who can say they survived a shared experience.

(http://http://rlv.zcache.com/i_survived_catholic_school_tshirt-p235187745919446125q6v8_400.jpg)


...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 28, 2010, 10:24:18 PM
First of all, my problem with survivors lying is the fact that it leads to the possibility that the abusers could get away with it. In my experience the only lies I have seen were not complete fabrications, they were stretches of the truth. Whooter, you have some jacked up mentality in trying to make it look like these programs were and are reputable businesses. What is the truth? What are you? I'm going with one of two options, you are either currently an employee or profiteer involved in the programs, or you are a parent who lost a child because of the program and you are trying to justify this in your sick little head. Reminds me of Corey Murphy's mom after he blew his brains out. Still trying to justify the hell SHE put HIM through by sending him to WWASPS programs. Either way you are a complete douche.

You got slapped down not because you went of topic, but because your a complete douche. You try to twist my words around and highlight the part where I talk about seeing a lie. Here's a little info for you if you want to quote something, if I saw 1 lie I saw 1,000 truths. Yaa, the lying bothers me because it takes away from the truth. But like I said 99.99% of the stories I have seen about my program are true. And where the hell do you get these "escort services" take kids to McDonalds. In my experience you are kidanpped, handcuffed or hogtied, if you fight you get diapers and thorazene. McD's? No, your lucky to get a drink of water, and even luckier if the drive is short enough that you don't shit your pants.

If you want to look at lies heres a couple, Brightway was not a licensed facility, neither was Paradise Cove. Browning Academy was not an accredited school. Program lies. And it just keeps going and going, I could write 10 pages on the lies they tell parents. The amount of lies they tell is mind boggling. The greatest one I saw was the ad video for paradise cove, HAH, talk about your great works of fiction.

As far as you go Whooter, why are you even here? It's obvious that you either don't know jack about programs, or you are the biggest liar of all, because if you do have any knowledge about these programs you would know that they are HUGE lying, thieving, cheating, soulless worthless scum of the earth. Therefore, either by choice, or by ignorance, you are the supporter of some of the most worthless "people" (and I hesitate to even classify them as that) on the face of the earth. Bravo, Captain Douchebag. :tup:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 28, 2010, 10:46:27 PM
Look there is no need to attack me because of my opinion.  I am of the belief that some programs are abusive and others are not.  Many kids are helped by programs and some are hurt by them.  I am not an extremist like yourself.  Unlike you I am able to see both sides of the issue.  Yes programs lie and so do survivors.  This topic is about survivors lying.  There have been discussions about programs lying and pro-program parents lying.  I accept those threads and they are worth discussing like this one is.

I highlighted the part about the lying in your thread because that is the topic here.  You seem to be very ignorant about the industry in general and post here on pure emotion versus intelligence, you can only see the industry through your own singular experience which is too bad because there are many kids who benefit greatly from their time spent in a program.  Your input here would be greatly appreciated if you could stop and accept that there are many other people around you who have voices also.

I hope you consider opening up your mind a little to opposing opinions without feeling threatened and in need of reducing yourself to attacks and name calling.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 28, 2010, 10:56:39 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
First of all, my problem with survivors lying is the fact that it leads to the possibility that the abusers could get away with it.

This is a good point.  If the abusers can point out that the survivors are lying about being kidnapped then how can they expect people to believe they were abused in a program?  If they embellish one aspect of their story then how can the reader distinguish between the truth and lies in the rest of the story.

The abusers can exploit this fact and discredit the story.

Whereas if the survivor told the truth from the beginning then it would be difficult to shake the persons credibility.

Do you see what I mean?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 28, 2010, 11:52:13 PM
I see exactly what you mean. You are the one that brought me into this thread in the first place. I don't like the fact that some people lie about the abuse. You opened this whole discussion and I haven't seen you reference one thing, one lie as you call it. I really just don't understand what you are attempting to accomplish. I mean, you accuse people of lying, but you haven't stated one instance in which there was a lie. So I'm curious, I shared my experience of a lie, what is yours? Do you actually have one? Or is this some kind of attempt at discrediting an entire group of people to save yourself from abuse charges?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 28, 2010, 11:55:27 PM
And I'm curious Whooter, where do you get off accusing anyone else of being a liar when you have admitted to being a liar yourself? The one instance I have seen in my limited readings of your posts is the fabricated son. So why don't you start a thread called "Why does Whooter need to lie?"
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 29, 2010, 12:46:47 AM
All people lie if they feel the ends justify the means.  Problem is in the long run it's never really worth it as people tend to get caught and it damages credibility.
Title: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 29, 2010, 12:47:24 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
That is a terrible story, GonzoTherapy, I am sorry you had to go thru that.  As to the lying aspect of your post, the stories do get people’s attention and maybe gains them a few minutes of gratification that people may feel sorry for them momentarily.  But I sense it goes beyond that.

There are so many reasons that people lie.  Some people inflate their grades on their resume because they are projecting themselves into a better job and feel justified doing so because they are worth more than the company is paying them.

Some kids become accustomed to lying in their teen years (and earlier) to get themselves out of trouble and when they learn that it works then they continue this habit, many throughout their lives to avoid accountability for their actions, blaming fellow employees for their screw-ups etc.

My sense is that the program wasn’t as bad as what they felt they went through.  They don’t have a story of abuse or a specific smoking gun that will communicate to the reader that the program was torturous.  So they fabricate a story about being kidnapped and taken to this dark place.  Everyone knows that kidnapping rarely ends well and is a good story line and is also an instant attention getter.

Maybe some survivors try to one-up each other and say I was abused more than you?

But my question still remains “Why would a person jeopardize their credibility by lying if the person was really abused?”  Maybe they have nothing to lose because they were never abused to begin with.  But this does a huge disservice to those few survivors who were truly abused during their stay in a program.

I am not sure there is a single answer.



...


Whooter you have yet to provide your own smoking gun of a survivor actually lying about something.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 29, 2010, 12:52:13 AM
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Whooter you have yet to provide your own smoking gun of a survivor actually lying about something.

Very good point.  Like I put in one of my first posts on this thread.  Whooter's question is loaded.  The real question is "do survivors lie", and if they do, where's a good example.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: none-ya on October 29, 2010, 01:37:40 AM
I f I may here (and I can't believe this is still going on)
Just when is the smallest exageration equal to a bald face lie?
I know the treatment I recieved was real. Now if I in some way compare my expieinces with those of a Korean pow or Russian gulog survivor, does that make me a liar?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 08:06:21 AM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
And I'm curious Whooter, where do you get off accusing anyone else of being a liar when you have admitted to being a liar yourself? The one instance I have seen in my limited readings of your posts is the fabricated son. So why don't you start a thread called "Why does Whooter need to lie?"

There have been several threads dedicated to pro-program people lying,  parents lying, Whooters lies.  When it was brought up about the fabricated son we reviewed the post and I explained why I wrote what I did.  I stand behind what I wrote.  On the other hand, Gonzotherapy, when I exposed certain anti-program people of pretending to be survivors of different programs, making up stories and asked why they posted them these individuals ran off and started deleting their posts and/or changed their user name.

Quote from: "Psy"
Very good point. Like I put in one of my first posts on this thread. Whooter's question is loaded. The real question is "do survivors lie", and if they do, where's a good example.

I have provided several examples of people claiming they were kidnapped and as a result ended up in a program.  There are no recorded amber alerts, police reports or documented articles to support any child was ever kidnapped by a program or ended up in a program as a result of a kidnapping.  So why would a person lie about this?  The people taking them to the program would explain that they are paid escorts or as a minimum they could find out by asking their parents what happened.  Why lie about it and risk getting caught and damaging their credibility?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 29, 2010, 09:42:12 AM
Quote from: "none-ya"
I f I may here (and I can't believe this is still going on)
Just when is the smallest exageration equal to a bald face lie?
I know the treatment I recieved was real. Now if I in some way compare my expieinces with those of a Korean pow or Russian gulog survivor, does that make me a liar?

Senator Sam Ervin didn't think so.  In fact, he directly compared what kids went thru in Seed to what our Korean war POWs went thru.

Edited to replace Straight with the Seed.  And Straight was considered by many to be even more abusive than the Seed.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 29, 2010, 10:13:30 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
On the other hand, Gonzotherapy, when I exposed certain anti-program people of pretending to be survivors of different programs, making up stories and asked why they posted them these individuals ran off and started deleting their posts and/or changed their user name.

Now was the person who did that a survivor, Whooter?  Tell the truth now.  No.  He was STAFF.  The only other person I know who did that (Sue Scheff) was a parent.  We're discussing survivor's lies here, Whooter.  On topic, too. So put up or shut up. Where is an example.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 29, 2010, 10:17:19 AM
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Whooter"
On the other hand, Gonzotherapy, when I exposed certain anti-program people of pretending to be survivors of different programs, making up stories and asked why they posted them these individuals ran off and started deleting their posts and/or changed their user name.

Now was the person who did that a survivor, Whooter?  Tell the truth now.  No.  He was STAFF.  The only other person I know who did that (Sue Scheff) was a parent.  We're discussing survivor's lies here, Whooter.  On topic, too. So put up or shut up. Where is an example.

He's accused me of lying and "embellishing" and that I even said that "Straight helped me" and I've asked him numerous times for a citation and never got a response.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 29, 2010, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "none-ya"
I f I may here (and I can't believe this is still going on)
Just when is the smallest exageration equal to a bald face lie?
I know the treatment I recieved was real. Now if I in some way compare my expieinces with those of a Korean pow or Russian gulog survivor, does that make me a liar?

Senator Sam Ervin didn't think so.  In fact, he directly compared what we went thru in Straight to what our Korean war POWs went thru.

And Gregory Kutz of the GAO used the term Brainwashing to describe what programs do too. The term is accurate.  It may sound sensational but it is accurate, as are the comparisons to Korean and Chinese brainwashing techniques, especially considering how such techniques aren't as physical as people might think -- mostly comprised of encounter groups.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 29, 2010, 10:32:14 AM
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "none-ya"
I f I may here (and I can't believe this is still going on)
Just when is the smallest exageration equal to a bald face lie?
I know the treatment I recieved was real. Now if I in some way compare my expieinces with those of a Korean pow or Russian gulog survivor, does that make me a liar?

Senator Sam Ervin didn't think so.  In fact, he directly compared what we went thru in Straight to what our Korean war POWs went thru.

And Gregory Kutz of the GAO used the term Brainwashing to describe what programs do too. The term is accurate.  It may sound sensational but it is accurate, as are the comparisons to Korean and Chinese brainwashing techniques, especially considering how such techniques aren't as physical as people might think -- mostly comprised of encounter groups.


Just for clarification purposes.....


Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "none-ya"
I f I may here (and I can't believe this is still going on)
Just when is the smallest exageration equal to a bald face lie?
I know the treatment I recieved was real. Now if I in some way compare my expieinces with those of a Korean pow or Russian gulog survivor, does that make me a liar?

Senator Sam Ervin didn't think so.  In fact, he directly compared what kids went thru in Seed to what our Korean war POWs went thru.

Edited to replace Straight with the Seed.  And Straight was considered by many to be even more abusive than the Seed.


Quote from: "psy"
especially considering how such techniques aren't as physical as people might think -- mostly comprised of encounter groups.


Abso-friggin-lutely
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 10:46:45 AM
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Whooter"
On the other hand, Gonzotherapy, when I exposed certain anti-program people of pretending to be survivors of different programs, making up stories and asked why they posted them these individuals ran off and started deleting their posts and/or changed their user name.

Now was the person who did that a survivor, Whooter?  Tell the truth now.  No.  He was STAFF.  The only other person I know who did that (Sue Scheff) was a parent.  We're discussing survivor's lies here, Whooter.  On topic, too. So put up or shut up. Where is an example.

Psy I was responding to Gonzotherapys question about lies he has read that I have told (I am not a survivor either).  I was pointing out that I have exposed anti program people of lying and making up survivor stories of abuse.  We have seen lies on all sides of the issue I think we can agree.

On to some examples:


Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=65118#p65118)
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14548&p=303137&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p303137)
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24538&p=302114&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p302114)
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24369&p=299920&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p299920)
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 29, 2010, 10:56:59 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
And I'm curious Whooter, where do you get off accusing anyone else of being a liar when you have admitted to being a liar yourself? The one instance I have seen in my limited readings of your posts is the fabricated son. So why don't you start a thread called "Why does Whooter need to lie?"

There have been several threads dedicated to pro-program people lying,  parents lying, Whooters lies.  When it was brought up about the fabricated son we reviewed the post and I explained why I wrote what I did.  I stand behind what I wrote.  On the other hand, Gonzotherapy, when I exposed certain anti-program people of pretending to be survivors of different programs, making up stories and asked why they posted them these individuals ran off and started deleting their posts and/or changed their user name.

Quote from: "Psy"
Very good point. Like I put in one of my first posts on this thread. Whooter's question is loaded. The real question is "do survivors lie", and if they do, where's a good example.

I have provided several examples of people claiming they were kidnapped and as a result ended up in a program.  There are no recorded amber alerts, police reports or documented articles to support any child was ever kidnapped by a program or ended up in a program as a result of a kidnapping.  So why would a person lie about this?  The people taking them to the program would explain that they are paid escorts or as a minimum they could find out by asking their parents what happened.  Why lie about it and risk getting caught and damaging their credibility?


...

Kidnapping does not just have to be for ransom, Whooter, for the thousandth time.  In the cases you keep citing it is the parents themselves who hired the kidnappers, so obviously there would be no amber alerts.  That is why this is so scary, these places don't just brainwash the kids, they convince the parents that it is necessary to deny all human rights to their child, that their child doesn't deserve them right now, as if basic human rights must be earned.  The only obvious liar I have seen on this forum is you.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 11:07:54 AM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"

Kidnapping does not just have to be for ransom, Whooter, for the thousandth time.  In the cases you keep citing it is the parents themselves who hired the kidnappers, so obviously there would be no amber alerts.  That is why this is so scary, these places don't just brainwash the kids, they convince the parents that it is necessary to deny all human rights to their child, that their child doesn't deserve them right now, as if basic human rights must be earned.  The only obvious liar I have seen on this forum is you.

Bottom line is these kids were transported to their school via an "Escort Service".  They all know that but they choose not to tell the truth.  Why is that?

If an escort Service becomes Kidnapping then does being forced to read become abuse?  Is a day in your room considered Isolation?  Does the program become a prison or gulag?  Do you become an inmate instead of a Resident?  Is being forced to sit in a class room Brainwashing?  Is cleaning the common hallway Agrarian Labor?  Is missing a meal starvation?

How does a person reading the stories interpret them?

Do you see what I mean?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 29, 2010, 11:08:48 AM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Kidnapping does not just have to be for ransom, Whooter, for the thousandth time.  In the cases you keep citing it is the parents themselves who hired the kidnappers, so obviously there would be no amber alerts.  That is why this is so scary, these places don't just brainwash the kids, they convince the parents that it is necessary to deny all human rights to their child, that their child doesn't deserve them right now, as if basic human rights must be earned.  The only obvious liar I have seen on this forum is you.


A-fucking-men!

 :notworthy:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Troll Control on October 29, 2010, 11:19:45 AM
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Whooter"
On the other hand, Gonzotherapy, when I exposed certain anti-program people of pretending to be survivors of different programs, making up stories and asked why they posted them these individuals ran off and started deleting their posts and/or changed their user name.

Now was the person who did that a survivor, Whooter?  Tell the truth now.  No.  He was STAFF.  The only other person I know who did that (Sue Scheff) was a parent.  We're discussing survivor's lies here, Whooter.  On topic, too. So put up or shut up. Where is an example.

To be fair, the "examples" Whooter "cited" were fabricated like his "son."  He never did provide any proof whatsoever of those accusations.  He just linked to any random post with an "edit stamp" and claimed that "before it was edited, it said ______."  Which, of course, was a complete fabrication.  

Other "examples" Whooter "cited" were actually posts he himself had written and tried to pin on others by phonying up "quotes" with no links to the OP's.

You have to keep in mind that Whooter is the ultimate prevaricator and lies about everything.  Now Psy appears willing to further perpetrate Whooter's lies without offering a shred of evidence either.  Pretty weak.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 29, 2010, 11:25:56 AM
Quote from: "Troll Control"
Now Psy appears willing to further perpetrate Whooter's lies without offering a shred of evidence either.  Pretty weak.

(http://http://www.billymeade.com/simages/quizzicaldog.jpg)
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 29, 2010, 11:32:03 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"

Kidnapping does not just have to be for ransom, Whooter, for the thousandth time.  In the cases you keep citing it is the parents themselves who hired the kidnappers, so obviously there would be no amber alerts.  That is why this is so scary, these places don't just brainwash the kids, they convince the parents that it is necessary to deny all human rights to their child, that their child doesn't deserve them right now, as if basic human rights must be earned.  The only obvious liar I have seen on this forum is you.

Bottom line is these kids were transported to their school via an "Escort Service".  They all know that but they choose not to tell the truth.  Why is that?

The Nazi's shipped millions of Jews to death camps, but they called it "relocation".  Why is that?

If an escort Service becomes Kidnapping then does being forced to read become abuse?  Is a day in your room considered Isolation?  Does the program become a prison or gulag?  Do you become an inmate instead of a Resident?  Is being forced to sit in a class room Brainwashing?

If you have to sit in that classroom for 12 hours every day, no moving your head or looking to the sides, no slouching, no bathroom breaks.  Endure endless LGAT sessions, be forced to reveal your deepest secrets so they can be used to manipulate you, then yes, it is brainwashing.

 Is cleaning the common hallway Agrarian Labor?  Is missing a meal starvation?

No, picking okra is agrarian labor though, which is what you would do in the program they sent you to if you hurt someone in my program.  Much like the way WWASP used Tranquility Bay.

How does a person reading the stories interpret them?

I think that survivors use the language they do specifically so they will not NEED an interpreter.

Do you see what I mean?

...

The Orwellian Newspeak you keep insisting we use lest we be thought dishonest was adopted by the programs deliberately to hide the truth of their "treatment model".

Do you see what I mean?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 01:03:51 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
The Nazi's shipped millions of Jews to death camps, but they called it "relocation". Why is that?

If you study the Nazi relocation program and systematic  extermination of the Jews you would read that these people were asked to pack up their personal belongings (what they could carry) and hop on a truck or train to be relocated.  They were not Kidnapped, they went willingly.

Quote
If you have to sit in that classroom for 12 hours every day, no moving your head or looking to the sides, no slouching, no bathroom breaks. Endure endless LGAT sessions, be forced to reveal your deepest secrets so they can be used to manipulate you, then yes, it is brainwashing.

Many people here are under the false impression that I dont accept that abuse occurs in programs.  I would consider this abuse and again I am not saying that abuse did not occur, I am saying that unless people are honest how are we to interpret the stories?  For example in your above description if you had started out by exaggerating that you were kidnapped first then we would have to interpret your quote this way:

“If you had to sit in a classroom for 6 hours every day, no getting up and walking around except for lunch and we had to ask permission to use the bathroom.  Were required to go to LGAT sessions which where designed to help us talk about our problems so that the staff could help us through the tough task of dealing with them."



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 29, 2010, 01:16:37 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
The Nazi's shipped millions of Jews to death camps, but they called it "relocation". Why is that?

If you study the Nazi relocation program and systematic  extermination of the Jews you would read that these people were asked to pack up their personal belongings (what they could carry) and hop on a truck or train to be relocated.  They were not Kidnapped, they went willingly.

...

EXACTLY!  Parents willingly hire "escort services" to take their kid away to a totalitarian thought reform camp.  Just like the jews who thought they were just being relocated, they are completely oblivious to reality until it is too late.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 29, 2010, 01:34:39 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
The Nazi's shipped millions of Jews to death camps, but they called it "relocation". Why is that?

If you study the Nazi relocation program and systematic  extermination of the Jews you would read that these people were asked to pack up their personal belongings (what they could carry) and hop on a truck or train to be relocated.  They were not Kidnapped, they went willingly.

 ::)  ::)  ::) You've got to be kidding.

Quote from: "Whooter"
“If you had to sit in a classroom for 6 hours every day,

Jeeez, talk about exaggerating, Shady said 12 and you reduced it to 6.  It was actually 12 - 18 hours a day.

Quote from: "Whooter"
no getting up and walking around except for lunch


And even then we were walked by the higher phasers with their hands wrapped around our beltloops, very often so hard that there was actual physical damage done to our genitals.

 
Quote from: "Whooter"
and we had to ask permission to use the bathroom.


Not only that, if the higher phasers didn't feel like we needed to go, they'd deny us. Same thing if we asked for water.  If they did take us we were walked by higher phasers with their hands wrapped around our beltloops, very often so hard that there was actual physical damage done to the genitals and while being watched pissing or taking a shit.  The stall doors were either removed or forced to remain open.

 
Quote from: "Whooter"
Were required to go to LGAT sessions which where designed to help us talk about our problems so that the staff could help us through the tough task of dealing with them."

They were NOT designed to help us.....they were designed to reprogram and control us.  It was directly taken from the re-education/thought reform techniques used by the Koreans on U.S. POWs
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: lifeboat on October 29, 2010, 01:39:53 PM
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31368&start=0 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31368&start=0)

CEDU lifeboat

Quote
The lifeboat experience was very hard for me.  I would never wish for anyone in my peer group to die.  This experience made me very sad.  I would never want to say goodbye to friends if I were dying.  I did not like to sort out in my head whether people should die or not.  I have a special compassion for people.  I don't believe that anyone should have to die.  When I had to say goodbye to people like my grandmothers, sister, brother, friends, and put a rose on my mother's grave and one on my father's grave, it shows how much  I love people.  I was also thinking about Shiela's little girl when I went around to her, I don't like thinking like that at all.  I began to think that when the boat was drowning it is was my turn to go to sleep and wonder if my mother felt this way when she died.  I now understand her, I think just from experiencing this exercise.  This exercise is a very important lesson because it teaches me that I have to tell people how much I love them.  I felt small when I was done sharing for one minute why I think I should live.  Because I kept on babbling the same thing over a few times.  There should have been more reasons why I should live - why I felt small.

If a person explains this to an outsider, people think they're crazy and lying.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 02:29:55 PM
I am still curious Whooter. Where exactly have you found a lie. It seems a little ridiculous that you start a thread about survivors lying, and of all the posts you have made have not identified one single lie. Even the post I made, the only post in this entire thread that cited a real example, still could be my perspective over someone elses, there were about three hundred kids there that day. In addition, that really wasn't about abuse, it was about a dog. I have witnessed and experienced myself many levels of abuse. And since we seem to keep going back to the kidnapping versus escort, I think the only reason it is not legally considered kidnapping because of the loophole they've been able to exploit in respect to classifying kids as mental patients. If a parent put their kids in handcuffs or zipties they would be charged with abuse, no matter how out of control that kid was. As far as comparing it to cops arresting kids, if they had broken the law they would be arrested, and prisoners are treated better than the kids in these programs. It is a loophole they've been able to use, that doesn't make it right. I think you said it best yourself when you remarked that Nazis called the rounding up of Jews into concentration camps as "relocation". I'm sure you don't see it that way though, you sound like the kind of person that supports Naziism and you probably think the Holocaust wasn't real.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 02:51:22 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
The Nazi's shipped millions of Jews to death camps, but they called it "relocation". Why is that?

If you study the Nazi relocation program and systematic  extermination of the Jews you would read that these people were asked to pack up their personal belongings (what they could carry) and hop on a truck or train to be relocated.  They were not Kidnapped, they went willingly.

...

EXACTLY!  Parents willingly hire "escort services" to take their kid away to a totalitarian thought reform camp.  Just like the jews who thought they were just being relocated, they are completely oblivious to reality until it is too late.

So we finally agree "Escorts".  If you ever listen to a Jewish survivor of the holocaust you will notice that they dont try to lie about what happened to them.  They dont tell everyone that they were kidnapped or say things that are not true.  Most of their stories have been confirmed through records and document seized from the Germans.

If you took the stories of survivors here on fornits you would stumble on finding any documented evidence that the person was kidnapped.  There would be no FBI case no amber alert, no police records and no kids reporting kidnappings after they left the program.  So their whole story just falls apart and the kid loses what  credibility he/she had.

@ Anne Bonney: Regarding changing the story from 12 hours to 6 hours (and the rest of the quote), if you read my post you would understand why that was done.  



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 29, 2010, 03:06:49 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"

So we finally agree "Escorts".  If you ever listen to a Jewish survivor of the holocaust you will notice that they dont try to lie about what happened to them.  They dont tell everyone that they were kidnapped or say things that are not true.  Most of their stories have been confirmed through records and document seized from the Germans.

If you took the stories of survivors here on fornits you would stumble on finding any documented evidence that the person was kidnapped.  There would be no FBI case no amber alert, no police records and no kids reporting kidnappings after they left the program.  So their whole story just falls apart and the kid loses what  credibility he/she had.

So, you're still playing the semantics game I see.

Quote from: "Whooter"
@ Anne Bonney: Regarding changing the story from 12 hours to 6 hours (and the rest of the quote), if you read my post you would understand why that was done.  

Explain it to me like I'm a complete idiot (like you don't already consider me to be so), cuz I still don't understand why you did it.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 03:12:47 PM
I thought I just went over that, no there are no reports, because their parents the, legal guardians, hire someone to kidnap them. I am sure that cooperative kids were treated better than uncooperative ones, throughout the program I saw that to be true. My point remains though, the mental patient loophole. If a parent handcuffed their kid in the back of a car and got caught, they would get arrested. Just because they found a way around the law, doesn't make it right. I still don't see how this constitutes as a lie. The reason people went to brightway before going to Samoa is so they could effectively break them first, I guarantee you things would have not gone so smoothly for them if they tried to put kids straight on a plane over to Samoa against their will. Just because they are intelligent enough to find ways to legally kidnap, doesn't make it any less wrong. Where is the lie? You started a thread about Survivor Lies, but you have shown nothing to prove a single lie. A broad generalization, how about one specific instance. If what they do is so benign, why is there no videotape of these "escorts". Why wouldn't they show that they are doing nothing wrong, especially because they are facing millions of dollars in lawsuits over the allegations. I know why they don't have videotapes of it, because if they showed what really went on, they would not only be facing civil suits, they would be facing criminal charges for kidnapping, because that's what it is.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 03:18:19 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
I am still curious Whooter. Where exactly have you found a lie.

I posted them on page 8 and then again a page or 2 back.

 
Quote
It seems a little ridiculous that you start a thread about survivors lying, and of all the posts you have made have not identified one single lie. Even the post I made, the only post in this entire thread that cited a real example, still could be my perspective over someone elses, there were about three hundred kids there that day. In addition, that really wasn't about abuse, it was about a dog. I have witnessed and experienced myself many levels of abuse. And since we seem to keep going back to the kidnapping versus escort, I think the only reason it is not legally considered kidnapping because of the loophole they've been able to exploit in respect to classifying kids as mental patients.

So someone catches you in a lie and says: why did you call your escort kidnapping?  and then you go on about some loop hole because you are classified as a mental patient the reader is going to think you are some kind of nut.  Why not just tell them you were hog tied and taken to the program by an escort service?  Why risk getting caught lying or having them think you are a mental patient?

 
Quote
If a parent put their kids in handcuffs or zipties they would be charged with abuse, no matter how out of control that kid was. As far as comparing it to cops arresting kids, if they had broken the law they would be arrested, and prisoners are treated better than the kids in these programs. It is a loophole they've been able to use, that doesn't make it right. I think you said it best yourself when you remarked that Nazis called the rounding up of Jews into concentration camps as "relocation". I'm sure you don't see it that way though, you sound like the kind of person that supports Naziism and you probably think the Holocaust wasn't real.

I think it was ShaddyAcres who called it "relocation" originally but it doesnt matter.  Why do you make broad statements like that against people you dont know in the middle of a discussion?  Now you consider me a supporter of the Nazis who thinks the holocaust never happened.  So now when you turn around and try to sell us on the idea that you were abused in a program or tell your story what are we to believe?  That you are mad at the program and believe them to be evil like you think I am (because the program didnt agree with you) and therefore you feel justified in making up  stories about your program to make them look bad like you just did to me?



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 03:22:31 PM
Why don't you mention that to your program buddies. It's cheap to tape everything now, so why don't they do it. Cops do it to protect themselves from lawsuits. Maybe the programs should as well. You would think, since they are doing nothing wrong and all these accusations are lies, that they would be happy to do so. If not to appease the doubters out there, they should do it to save their own asses. Real easy to prove that these kids (who you still have not identified or quoted one single instance of a lie) are liars. Programs are still operating, still "escorting" kids, why not prove to the courts that are breathing down their necks as we speak, that all of this is legal and these accusations are lies?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 03:42:16 PM
Oh, I'm sorry, where did I lie? I'm the one making things up? Where's your proof of that. My program was shut down for allegations of abuse (Paradise Cove, Brightway, look that up), the sister programs in Mexico, Jamaica, and Costa Rica shut down because of allegations of abuse. Lets not forget that some of these programs are in third world countries and were shut down by their governments. Don't you think it is a little odd that a program that is perfectly within the law gets shut down? Over and over and over and over. The only way they are able to re-open is by switching up ownership and playing little legal games. Their tactics are so shady that they are facing a 100,000,000 dollar lawsuit. Prove that one word of what I said is a lie.

Yes allegations. I know that's where you are going. But if these allegations are so unfounded, why are these programs repeatedly getting shut down. They could easily prove their innocence by letting authorities in, or by videotaping to prove these kids are lying. Do you think that will happen? Of course not. You know it and I know it. They could prove these kids are lying in a heartbeat, IF THEY WERE LYING!!! But since they're not, that makes it a little more difficult.

And I am so sorry for calling you a Nazi, if you didn't sound like such a fascist I wouldn't have made the remark. Your wordplay and attempts to discredit are very indicative of Mein Kampf, of course without the intelligence.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 03:55:54 PM
O.K. I reviwed your posts on pg. 2 and 10. I see you making a statement and then calling that statement that you made a lie. So, why do survivors need to lie? Can you please quote one lie and show some evidence to support that, all I see is what you said, thats it.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 03:59:34 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
Why don't you mention that to your program buddies. It's cheap to tape everything now, so why don't they do it. Cops do it to protect themselves from lawsuits. Maybe the programs should as well. You would think, since they are doing nothing wrong and all these accusations are lies, that they would be happy to do so. If not to appease the doubters out there, they should do it to save their own asses. Real easy to prove that these kids (who you still have not identified or quoted one single instance of a lie) are liars. Programs are still operating, still "escorting" kids, why not prove to the courts that are breathing down their necks as we speak, that all of this is legal and these accusations are lies?

I am sure you have more program buddies than I do, Gonzo.  But I am not sure what you mean?  Tape what?  I don't think the programs have any problem with the kids calling the escorts services kidnapping.  I dont think they care that they are called Gulags.  These are names that the kids who didn't do well in programs call them.  The majority of the kids, which did well,have no reason to try to discredit the program or risk discrediting themselves.

The courts dont need to look far to find the escorts.  They can do a google search like this... Escort (http://http://www.safeandsoundtransportation.com/)



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 04:02:31 PM
This is the 3rd time so I may get tagged for flooding:
 Here are a few of them:

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=65118#p65118)
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14548&p=303137&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p303137)
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24538&p=302114&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p302114)
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24369&p=299920&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p299920)
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 04:17:13 PM
And why are those lies. Kidnap-verb (used with object), -napped or -naped, -nap·ping or -nap·ing.  
to steal, carry off, or abduct by force or fraud.

How is it again that these are lies?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 04:20:26 PM
And I am sure that they don't have a problem with these accusations. Especially because they enjoy all of the effort involved in shutting these programs down, relocating their captives, and jumping through hoops to re-open under different names and ownership. I know plenty of people who left the program on higher levels, myself included, that KNOW these programs are abusive.

I'm sorry, where is your proof that these are lies?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 04:28:49 PM
I graduated both seminars, they called them Discovery and Focus when I was in, I staffed seminars and was one week from moving up to level 4 (junior staff) from the family leader position when I left. And that was actually doing pretty well for a 1 year stay. So for you to say that all people who lie about this abuse, which you accuse me of, were people who didn't do well. I did very well. So what is your new story?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 04:40:57 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
And I am sure that they don't have a problem with these accusations. Especially because they enjoy all of the effort involved in shutting these programs down, relocating their captives, and jumping through hoops to re-open under different names and ownership. I know plenty of people who left the program on higher levels, myself included, that KNOW these programs are abusive.

I'm sorry, where is your proof that these are lies?

Where are you getting the idea that I think these places are not abusive.  I understand that there are programs that are abusive.  What I dont understand is why people need to exaggerate or lie about their experience.  If the truth was that bad why not tell the truth?  



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 04:48:55 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.  


...

Who has established this? I guarantee I can find more kids that would testify that the truth is kidnapping, abuse, brainwashing, etc... Than you could find saying they were liars. Or are we just going to take the word of staff that these kids are liars? The people who have everything to lose if the allegations are true. Of course, if they had actually been abusive they would just admit it, right? They wouldn't try to discredit the accusers by hiring somebody to sit and babysit forums twisting words and making incredibly broad unfounded allegations of lies. I think I should call them up and let them know they are over-paying you. You are a miserable failure at discrediting anything.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 05:19:00 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"

Who has established this? I guarantee I can find more kids that would testify that the truth is kidnapping, abuse, brainwashing, etc... Than you could find saying they were liars. Or are we just going to take the word of staff that these kids are liars? The people who have everything to lose if the allegations are true. Of course, if they had actually been abusive they would just admit it, right? They wouldn't try to discredit the accusers by hiring somebody to sit and babysit forums twisting words and making incredibly broad unfounded allegations of lies. I think I should call them up and let them know they are over-paying you. You are a miserable failure at discrediting anything.

I never brought up staff you did.  It doesn’t matter whether or not you are paid to come on here to lie about programs or not.  That doesn’t matter to me.  The fact remains that you are trying to make the readers believe that kids are kidnapped every day, held for years, brainwashed and then re-released into the general population and not one has ever gone to the police to report the kidnappings.  

In the state of Massachusetts if a child is kidnapped it would make national news and various people like Nancy Grace of CNN would hunt these people down.  But this hasn’t happened because these stories are all in your mind, Gonzo.

Go ahead and try telling people in your neighborhood that thousands of kids are being kidnapped, tortured and brainwashed in Gulags dispersed around the United States.  Go to your local police station or FBI and ask them to investigate all these kidnappings.  Then come back and tell us what type of reaction you got.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 05:48:39 PM
Ummm... There is a 100,000,000 lawsuit that is proceeding forward. Charges include kidnapping. Plaintiffs number 250+. The reason they have gotten away with it is because government officials are some of the ones who have profited from these scams. As far as what I am trying to get people believe, I don't think anyone is reading this but you. I am certainly not being paid, I'm sorry you are not astute enough to understand what I wrote. You are obviously the one who is getting paid to be here. Overpaid in my opinion. If you are the best they can do they are in a sad state of affairs. The facts are that they have gotten away with it all because they can afford to, for the time being.

If they wanted to discredit these lies and avoid the lawsuit, they can videotape all of their "escorts" and their methods. That doesn't happen because they will prove that the survivors are TELLING THE TRUTH!!! I was totally on board with survivors not lying. I agree that this discredits and hurts those who tell the truth. But I have not seen one instance of a complete fabrication, only embellishing on true abuse. You sidestep every truth you are faced with. This bores me. Who can you possibly be to accuse others of lying?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 06:03:52 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
Ummm... There is a 100,000,000 lawsuit that is proceeding forward. Charges include kidnapping. Plaintiffs number 250+. The reason they have gotten away with it is because government officials are some of the ones who have profited from these scams. As far as what I am trying to get people believe, I don't think anyone is reading this but you. I am certainly not being paid, I'm sorry you are not astute enough to understand what I wrote. You are obviously the one who is getting paid to be here. Overpaid in my opinion. If you are the best they can do they are in a sad state of affairs. The facts are that they have gotten away with it all because they can afford to, for the time being.

Do you have a link to a lawsuit in-which a program was found guilty of kidnapping?  How about an escort agency?  How about a pending kidnapping case that is in court?  Anything?


Quote
If they wanted to discredit these lies and avoid the lawsuit, they can videotape all of their "escorts" and their methods. That doesn't happen because they will prove that the survivors are TELLING THE TRUTH!!!

If there was a reason to defend themselves then I am sure they would.  Why should the programs worry about the escort agencies?  The program isnt responsible for what the escort agencies do.  You have failed to support your argument.

Quote
I was totally on board with survivors not lying. I agree that this discredits and hurts those who tell the truth. But I have not seen one instance of a complete fabrication, only embellishing on true abuse. You sidestep every truth you are faced with. This bores me. Who can you possibly be to accuse others of lying?

You have actually been sidestepping, Gonzo, I have provided you with evidence and each time you come back saying you cannot find it.  Tell you what... show the readers one completed investigation for kidnapping where the child was found and recovered from a program or show us a pending one.  This stuff is all in your mind.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 06:15:46 PM
So, because Bin Laden has not been caught yet he must not be a terrorist? How am I side-stepping. You accuse people of lying, you accuse me of lying. You are obviously paid by programs to help alleviate the wounds forums like this are inflicting. Heres a fact for you. Robert Lichfield, the head of the WWASPS organization was FIRED by Mitt Romney from his finance division, because of allegations of abuse. The lid is coming off, I'm sure you won't be around for me to say I told you so when it does.

Fact, program after program has been closed because of allegations of abuse. Fact, look up the pending lawsuit against WWASPS, they have shown that many of the escort services used were in fact owned by the same people who owned the programs.

Fact- your allegations of lies have less backing than the allegations of abuse do.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 06:22:13 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Whooter"



Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=65118#p65118)
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14548&p=303137&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p303137)
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24538&p=302114&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p302114)
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24369&p=299920&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p299920)
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.



...
I have looked at all of these links. Why are they lies? Because you said so?  :ftard:
Really? You didn't excell in debate class did you?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 06:28:46 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
So, because Bin Laden has not been caught yet he must not be a terrorist? How am I side-stepping. You accuse people of lying, you accuse me of lying. You are obviously paid by programs to help alleviate the wounds forums like this are inflicting. Heres a fact for you. Robert Lichfield, the head of the WWASPS organization was FIRED by Mitt Romney from his finance division, because of allegations of abuse. The lid is coming off, I'm sure you won't be around for me to say I told you so when it does.

Fact, program after program has been closed because of allegations of abuse. Fact, look up the pending lawsuit against WWASPS, they have shown that many of the escort services used were in fact owned by the same people who owned the programs.

Fact- your allegations of lies have less backing than the allegations of abuse do.


I understand WWASP programs, they are on their way out and there are only a few left.  They dont represent the industry in my opinion.  There are over 300 programs today.

All I am saying, Gonzo, is that you are obviously lying because you use the word "Fact" a lot but fail every time to bring evidence to the table.  I am not sure who or what is motivating you to lie here on the forum but I can tell you that it will not work. Maybe you are desperate or something but eventually even the most extreme program haters will require you to provide a link to all these facts you claim to have.



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 06:32:26 PM
http://www.caica.org/Mitt_Romney_Robert_Lichfield.htm (http://www.caica.org/Mitt_Romney_Robert_Lichfield.htm)
Feel free to explore the site, everything you claim that I have lied about is right here. FACT.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 06:42:22 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
http://www.caica.org/Mitt_Romney_Robert_Lichfield.htm
Feel free to explore the site, everything you claim that I have lied about is right here. FACT.

So you concede that you have no evidence of kids being kidnapped or people being prosecuted or convicted for kidnapping.  I didnt think so but I wanted you to realize this in your own time.  A single newspaper article of the kidnappers being apprehended would be a good start.

I am familiar with caica and their articles.



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 06:52:27 PM
http://www.wturley.com/Recent-Filings/2 ... Claims.pdf (http://www.wturley.com/Recent-Filings/20090115_Wood_PL_5th_Amd_Complaint_Without_Claims.pdf)
Keep shoveling. You're doing a fine job.
Title: Re: The smoking gun
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 06:55:41 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
http://www.wturley.com/Recent-Filings/20090115_Wood_PL_5th_Amd_Complaint_Without_Claims.pdf
Keep shoveling. You're doing a fine job.

Try searching for kidnap or kidnapping.  no mention in your link.



...
Title: Why not be honest about survivor stories?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 07:05:20 PM
If programs are truly abusive and posters here on fornits believe that then why lie? Why not just write that you were abused in a program and explain what happened and by whom? Why make up stories of being kidnapped and held in a prison, placed in isolation in a Gulag and brainwashed? It is really easy to check the credibility of this. I don’t think one amber alert resulted in the capture of a teenager being located at a program nor a link to a report of a child being kidnapped. Yet we read on fornits that this occurs everyday.

So why the lies? Just curious.



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 07:41:02 PM
Well the definition of kidnapping is -- forcibly taking someone against their will. Whether the government recognizes this or not does not make the kidnapee a liar. Of course as we have seen anyone who is anti-program is a liar. You have continually called me a liar. Where is your proof of that? Right there along with your other opinions, I mean "proof".
Whooter
 :agree:
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 29, 2010, 07:44:58 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Whooter"
On the other hand, Gonzotherapy, when I exposed certain anti-program people of pretending to be survivors of different programs, making up stories and asked why they posted them these individuals ran off and started deleting their posts and/or changed their user name.

Now was the person who did that a survivor, Whooter?  Tell the truth now.  No.  He was STAFF.  The only other person I know who did that (Sue Scheff) was a parent.  We're discussing survivor's lies here, Whooter.  On topic, too. So put up or shut up. Where is an example.

Psy I was responding to Gonzotherapys question about lies he has read that I have told (I am not a survivor either).  I was pointing out that I have exposed anti program people of lying and making up survivor stories of abuse.

Irrelevant.  The topic of the thread was survivor's lies, not the lies of generic anti-program people, which could be interpreted to be a very very wide set of people.  Where is the smoking gun of a lying survivor, Whooter?  You titled the thread "why do survivors need to lie?", implying they do.  Where is the proof for that loaded question?  Quit being evasive and answer the very very simple question.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 29, 2010, 07:48:29 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=65118#p65118)
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14548&p=303137&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p303137)
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24538&p=302114&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p302114)
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24369&p=299920&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p299920)
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.
...

I think that we've established that those are all statements of opinion, and very reasonable ones at that. I can cite case law (http://http://www.animallaw.info/cases/causnv895p2d1269.htm) (search for "evaluative opinion") if you really really want. Where is a false statement of fact (i.e. a lie), Whooter?
Quote from: "Peta V. Berosini"
An evaluative opinion involves a value judgment based on true information disclosed to or known by the public. Evaluative opinions convey the publisher's judgment as to the quality of another's behavior and, as such, it is not a statement of fact. “Under the Restatement (Second) virtually all ‘evaluative only’ opinions would be nonactionable, since they are by definition based on disclosed facts.... The statement that ‘Jane Doe did not deserve the Oscar for her movie role because it was a shallow, two-bit, hack performance’ is not actionable even in the face of ironclad proof that every other living being who has ever seen the movie loved the performance.”*625 Rodney A. Smolla, Law of Defamation § 6.05 [2], page 6-20 (1988) (citations omitted). The divergent evaluative opinions expressed in the case now before us are subject to debate. Neither is “right” or “wrong.”

In the present case, everyone involved has seen the “movie”; and all the facts upon which opinions were based were “disclosed” in the videotape itself. Those who were of the opinion that Berosini was being abusive to the animals were making an evaluative judgment based on the facts portrayed in the video. All viewers of that video are free to express their opinion on the question of whether they think Berosini was being cruel to those animals, and no one can be successfully sued for expressing such an evaluative opinion-even if it is “wrong.” There is no such thing as a false idea or a wrong opinion. See **1276 Nevada Ind. Broadcasting Corp. v. Allen, 99 Nev. 404, 410, 664 P.2d 337, 341-42 (1983).

In other words, the known facts here are that kids are transported to programs by Escort Services.  When the word "kidnapping" is applied to these known facts it becomes qualitative...  It becomes opinion, even if it might otherwise be legally "false" (however in this case there is a good argument that what escort services do is also legally kidnapping.  Even if "kidnapping" were not evaluative opinion in this context, it could very well be a true statement of fact.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 29, 2010, 07:56:25 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
be honest how are we to interpret the stories
Interpretations not facts. Interpretations are the facts...  well.. interpreted.  They are opinion.  They cannot be more or less honest or true or false any more than any other opinion can be.  Show me a false statement of fact coming from a survivor.  Example:

"John Doe Staffer punched me." would be a false statement of fact if John Doe never punched me.  On the other hand "the food at Happy Happy Ranch tasted like vomit" is a statement of opinion.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 29, 2010, 08:00:36 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
I am still curious Whooter. Where exactly have you found a lie. It seems a little ridiculous that you start a thread about survivors lying, and of all the posts you have made have not identified one single lie. Even the post I made, the only post in this entire thread that cited a real example, still could be my perspective over someone elses, there were about three hundred kids there that day. In addition, that really wasn't about abuse, it was about a dog.

And more than likely the dog became a puppy not out of malice, but out of a simple miscommunication as a result of the "telephone game".  Nobody mentioned a machete either until you, and if the intent was to shock, that certainly would have been included.  Personally I find your first hand version of the events just as disturbing.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: psy on October 29, 2010, 08:10:29 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
Why don't you mention that to your program buddies. It's cheap to tape everything now, so why don't they do it. Cops do it to protect themselves from lawsuits. Maybe the programs should as well. You would think, since they are doing nothing wrong and all these accusations are lies, that they would be happy to do so. If not to appease the doubters out there, they should do it to save their own asses. Real easy to prove that these kids (who you still have not identified or quoted one single instance of a lie) are liars. Programs are still operating, still "escorting" kids, why not prove to the courts that are breathing down their necks as we speak, that all of this is legal and these accusations are lies?
Video tapes tend to disappear at the few programs that do that. EG: Judge Rotenberg Center in Canton MA.  It's very difficult for survivors to prove abuse in large part because so much of the proof is in the hands of the program.  They're called liars and there isn't much they can do.  Most people believe those in "authority" who are just there to "help the children" over "troubled" teens, despite the lack of due process and often no diagnosis either.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 08:18:24 PM
Whooter,
Your thread was a joke. I was the only one who cited a specific instance of a survivor lie, and all it was was an embellishment on the truth. Over and over again I have stated that I have seen no complete fabrications of abuse, only embellishments, and even those are incredibly rare compared to the truths I have seen. And to be honest I completely understand as someone who went through it, why someone would embellish to get a point across. Your entire point, if I can even thread through your bullshit and truth dodging to find it, was that the claims of kidnapping were lies. What do we call it when we are forcibly removed against our will? You find a better word to describe it, great, more power to you, still won't change the fact that kidnapping is the best word to describe it. The fact remains that you have several times called me a liar, where do you prove that? I think the thread is gone because you are a joke, and so was the thread. And I love the fact that you dismiss the hundreds of people in that lawsuit as being liars. You know what the sick thing is, your vehemenent opposal and attempts to discredit people with no proof whatsoever makes me think that you must be well aware of what goes on and are actively working to cover up the truth. I won't feel sorry for you when this web of lies comes crashing down on you.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 29, 2010, 08:31:54 PM
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
I am still curious Whooter. Where exactly have you found a lie. It seems a little ridiculous that you start a thread about survivors lying, and of all the posts you have made have not identified one single lie. Even the post I made, the only post in this entire thread that cited a real example, still could be my perspective over someone elses, there were about three hundred kids there that day. In addition, that really wasn't about abuse, it was about a dog.

And more than likely the dog became a puppy not out of malice, but out of a simple miscommunication as a result of the "telephone game".  Nobody mentioned a machete either until you, and if the intent was to shock, that certainly would have been included.  Personally I find your first hand version of the events just as disturbing.

I agree with that 100%. The thread I saw that on seemed to be more "what I heard" than "what I saw". Far more disturbing than anything they did to the dog was the things they did to Frederickson. I think they treated that dog better than they treated him.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 29, 2010, 10:34:19 PM
I have submitted several examples of kids claiming that they were kidnapped and ended up at a program.  There has never been any evidence of kidnapping reports that I have seen here.

A recent survivor, gonzotherapy, was frustrated with our discussion when the link he provided of a lawsuit against WWASP programs turned out to have no reference to kidnapping that I could find.   He starts to write lies that I called all the people in the lawsuit liars as is evident in the post below.

Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
And I love the fact that you dismiss the hundreds of people in that lawsuit as being liars.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385320#p385320)

So we have established that survivors do lie. I am not saying all of them do but posters like Gonzotherapy may become frustrated with the fact that the programs remain open and their stories are falling on deaf ears so they decide to fabricate some stories to up the ante like he did with me.  Trying to discredit me by saying I called all those people liars and trying to make readers believe I get paid by the industry to write here on fornits.  If he can so easily lie about me who he has known for one day imagine the motivation he has to lie about WWASP programs which are still in operation.

Just something to think about.

The lies may be justified and understood to be okay by many here.  But my point is that the lies discredit the rest of your story.  Why take the risk of having people just not believe you if you truly have something important to communicate?  Integrity is crucial when you are accusing someone of wrong doing.



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: none-ya on October 29, 2010, 11:46:00 PM
I will try one more time with this. If you found yourself being abducted from your home in the middle of the night,by armed goons threatenng you to leave with them. If you could get to a phone, what would you say? HELP I'M BEING TRANSPORTED???
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Froderik on October 30, 2010, 12:03:56 AM
Quote from: "none-ya"
I will try one more time with this. If you found yourself being abducted from your home in the middle of the night,by armed goons threatenng you to leave with them. If you could get to a phone, what would you say? HELP I'M BEING TRANSPORTED???

 :rofl:  :tup:
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 12:13:53 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
I have submitted several examples of kids claiming that they were kidnapped and ended up at a program.  There has never been any evidence of kidnapping reports that I have seen here.

A recent survivor, gonzotherapy, was frustrated with our discussion when the link he provided of a lawsuit against WWASP programs turned out to have no reference to kidnapping that I could find.   He starts to write lies that I called all the people in the lawsuit liars as is evident in the post below.

Just something to think about.

The lies may be justified and understood to be okay by many here.  But my point is that the lies discredit the rest of your story.  Why take the risk of having people just not believe you if you truly have something important to communicate?  Integrity is crucial when you are accusing someone of wrong doing.



...
Are you for real? One- I left the program almost 13 years ago. I guess that could be recent. 2- You over and over call me a liar. Proof?

I said that you called all those people liars because you clearly said that the abuse suffered is a lie. Since you make no specific cases, I went ahead and made the generalization for you. The only one who is a liar here is you. And no surprise that you were not intelligent enough to get away with it, because you got caught and admitted it.

You are far from a formidable adversary. Your retort to everything I say is - Liar, your a liar, liar, no you lie, liar, c'mon. Is that the best you can do, are you going to even attempt not to look like a left out schoolgirl?
Integrity is crucial when you are accusing someone of wrong doing? Do you even know what integrity means? Obviously you don't know what the word kidnapping means. Taken against your will. Therefore if someone is taken to a program they don't want to be at, they have been kidnapped. I'm sorry, do you need me to use smaller words?
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 12:35:38 AM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.  


...

This is a great one. Who doesnt do well and graduates the program? Oh, the people who say anything bad about the program, even if they graduated, they must not have done well. So, they must be liars. People who didn't "do well" did not graduate my program. That is what you call an oxymoron. I generalized that you called the hundreds of people in the lawsuits liars because the way you refer to anyone who didn't do well lies about the program. If that's not what you meant, my bad. You need to just chill on calling me a liar, pot calling the kettle black.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 12:43:45 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
I
So we have established that survivors do lie.



...
We have? Does anyone else agree with this? Just curious.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 30, 2010, 07:52:37 AM
Gonzo you did lie about me a couple of times in this thread.  When you posted the lawsuit I stated I did not see any reference to kidnapping and you stated that I called them liars.

Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
And I love the fact that you dismiss the hundreds of people in that lawsuit as being liars.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385320#p385320)

Then another time you were frustrated with our conversation you tried to make the readers believe that I was being paid by the industry to post here, thereby discrediting my opinions.  You have been here for about a day and know nothing about me yet you make up lies about me?

Quote

They wouldn't try to discredit the accusers by hiring somebody to sit and babysit forums twisting words and making incredibly broad unfounded allegations of lies. I think I should call them up and let them know they are over-paying you. You are a miserable failure at discrediting anything.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385283#p385283)

Most of us lie at one time or another, but I am curious as to why you need to lie about me here on the forum.  If you would do this to someone you hardly know about then what are we to believe about your stories of your time in a program?  Could it be that you are equally frustrated with the programs still being open and want to hurt them too?  Discredit them? Would this lead you to lie like you did about me?




...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 30, 2010, 10:04:09 AM
Whooter, you think you are clever but deliberate stupidity is not cleverness.  You are obviously some kind of program shill, a child could see that from your posts.  Either you are financially dependent on this industry and have taken it upon yourself to run damage control here, or you have simply been hired by elements of this industry.  I am glad the moderators have not banned you because your posts are possibly more powerful proof of the prevailing attitudes at these programs than any of our stories.  You obviously have no compassion for these kids, and no respect for what they went through.  Gonzotherapy got your number after one day, summed you up beautifully.  So keep it up, your tactics speak for themselves.
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 30, 2010, 10:11:31 AM
Quote from: "psy"
I think that we've established that those are all statements of opinion, and very reasonable ones at that. I can cite case law (http://http://www.animallaw.info/cases/causnv895p2d1269.htm) (search for "evaluative opinion") if you really really want. Where is a false statement of fact (i.e. a lie), Whooter?
Quote from: "Peta V. Berosini"
An evaluative opinion involves a value judgment based on true information disclosed to or known by the public. Evaluative opinions convey the publisher's judgment as to the quality of another's behavior and, as such, it is not a statement of fact. “Under the Restatement (Second) virtually all ‘evaluative only’ opinions would be nonactionable, since they are by definition based on disclosed facts.... The statement that ‘Jane Doe did not deserve the Oscar for her movie role because it was a shallow, two-bit, hack performance’ is not actionable even in the face of ironclad proof that every other living being who has ever seen the movie loved the performance.”*625 Rodney A. Smolla, Law of Defamation § 6.05 [2], page 6-20 (1988) (citations omitted). The divergent evaluative opinions expressed in the case now before us are subject to debate. Neither is “right” or “wrong.”

In the present case, everyone involved has seen the “movie”; and all the facts upon which opinions were based were “disclosed” in the videotape itself. Those who were of the opinion that Berosini was being abusive to the animals were making an evaluative judgment based on the facts portrayed in the video. All viewers of that video are free to express their opinion on the question of whether they think Berosini was being cruel to those animals, and no one can be successfully sued for expressing such an evaluative opinion-even if it is “wrong.” There is no such thing as a false idea or a wrong opinion. See **1276 Nevada Ind. Broadcasting Corp. v. Allen, 99 Nev. 404, 410, 664 P.2d 337, 341-42 (1983).

In other words, the known facts here are that kids are transported to programs by Escort Services.  When the word "kidnapping" is applied to these known facts it becomes qualitative...  It becomes opinion, even if it might otherwise be legally "false" (however in this case there is a good argument that what escort services do is also legally kidnapping.  Even if "kidnapping" were not evaluative opinion in this context, it could very well be a true statement of fact.

I see what you are trying to say, psy, But I don’t agree that kidnapping can just be a matter of opinion.  If we accepted this then how would we standardize and understand description from survivors here?  They could just as easily say making their bed in the morning was abuse and torture or that being forced to go to school was brainwashing.  They could justify their words by saying it felt like torture or abuse or brainwashing.

None of these events would be classified as true in the legal sense of the words and would be thrown out of court.  



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 30, 2010, 12:03:24 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Whooter, you think you are clever but deliberate stupidity is not cleverness.  You are obviously some kind of program shill, a child could see that from your posts.  Either you are financially dependent on this industry and have taken it upon yourself to run damage control here, or you have simply been hired by elements of this industry.  I am glad the moderators have not banned you because your posts are possibly more powerful proof of the prevailing attitudes at these programs than any of our stories.  You obviously have no compassion for these kids, and no respect for what they went through.  Gonzotherapy got your number after one day, summed you up beautifully.  So keep it up, your tactics speak for themselves.

Shady, you cant see beyond your own nose on this subject.  I am not the one disrespecting survivors and having a lack of compassion for them, you are and those like you.  There are kids who went to programs who were seriously abused and some of them died at the hands of program staff who are still working in the industry as we speak.  How are these kids (and those like them) going to be able to find people to listen to them and find their story credible when we have people like yourself running around claiming to have been kidnapped and carried off to Gulags and tortured.  Its not only disrespectful to those who were actually abused in these places but it is disrespectful to kids who were kidnapped, held for Ransom and/or killed.  Have some guts tell the readers you were taken by "Oneway escort service" and were forced to do such and such at xyz Program".  Be honest!

If I was shot in a hunting accident I could tell everyone that I was so scared that it felt like someone was trying to kill me.  But it would be a lie to tell everyone that I was attacked by terrorists.

The kids who were taken by escort may have been frightened, it may have felt like kidnapping to them and it is a service that I don’t think I would use partly because of this.  But the child would have full knowledge that they were not being taken by kidnappers after a very short period of time so why would they lie about it?

Why do you accept this disrespect towards other survivors, Shady?  You water down and desensitize the whole experience with this vocabulary to the point that you cannot distinguish between those people who were abused and those who just had a rough time.

I am not the enemy here, shady, you are.  I am just pointing it out to you.  You can continue to say you were kidnapped and dragged to a gulag where you were tortured and brainwashed.  But I don’t think it is fair to other survivors to embellish, lie or make up stories.



...
Title: Re: Why not be honest about survivor stories?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 30, 2010, 12:25:01 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
If programs are truly abusive and posters here on fornits believe that then why lie? Why not just write that you were abused in a program and explain what happened and by whom? Why make up stories of being kidnapped and held in a prison, placed in isolation in a Gulag and brainwashed? It is really easy to check the credibility of this. I don’t think one amber alert resulted in the capture of a teenager being located at a program nor a link to a report of a child being kidnapped. Yet we read on fornits that this occurs everyday.

So why the lies? Just curious.

...

When did you read on fornits that there are amber alerts for program victims every day?  There are no amber alerts for these kids because their parents have been persuaded to hire kidnappers themselves to take their child away to be "re-programmed" in a place that is, to them and to most of us here, a re-education Gulag.  You claiming that this opinion is not valid is reminiscent of the philosophy of the program I was in.  Our opinions meant nothing, the Staff TOLD us how to think and feel.  That is what you appear to be trying to do to us here.  We, unlike you, have had an opportunity to discover first hand what these places are like for the kids that are locked inside them.  What gives you the right to ignore this?
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 30, 2010, 12:59:06 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Whooter, you think you are clever but deliberate stupidity is not cleverness.  You are obviously some kind of program shill, a child could see that from your posts.  Either you are financially dependent on this industry and have taken it upon yourself to run damage control here, or you have simply been hired by elements of this industry.  I am glad the moderators have not banned you because your posts are possibly more powerful proof of the prevailing attitudes at these programs than any of our stories.  You obviously have no compassion for these kids, and no respect for what they went through.  Gonzotherapy got your number after one day, summed you up beautifully.  So keep it up, your tactics speak for themselves.

Shady, you cant see beyond your own nose on this subject.  I am not the one disrespecting survivors and having a lack of compassion for them, you are and those like you. There are kids who went to programs who were seriously abused and some of them died at the hands of program staff who are still working in the industry as we speak.

Abused to the point of death, sounds like torture to me.  What kind of place does that to people?

  How are these kids (and those like them) going to be able to find people to listen to them and find their story credible when we have people like yourself running around claiming to have been kidnapped and carried off to Gulags and tortured.  Its not only disrespectful to those who were actually abused in these places but it is disrespectful to kids who were kidnapped, held for Ransom and/or killed.  Have some guts tell the readers you were taken by "Oneway escort service" and were forced to do such and such at xyz Program".  Be honest!

First and most important rule, Whooter.  By the way, what do you do for a living again?

If I was shot in a hunting accident I could tell everyone that I was so scared that it felt like someone was trying to kill me.  But it would be a lie to tell everyone that I was attacked by terrorists.

That is the stupidest argument I have ever heard.  Were you hunting with AK 47's?  Semtex?  Sarin gas?  These programs and the methods they use bear a very strong resemblance to the notorious communist thought reform facilities of the recent past.

The kids who were taken by escort may have been frightened, it may have felt like kidnapping to them and it is a service that I don’t think I would use partly because of this.  But the child would have full knowledge that they were not being taken by kidnappers after a very short period of time so why would they lie about it?

Again, they are not lying.  They have been abducted by strangers, who have taken them to a strange place and they have no idea what will happen to them.  They have nobody they can trust at this point, they are isolated by their abductors.  Your semantics just serve to reveal your true disposition and your true agenda.

Why do you accept this disrespect towards other survivors, Shady?  You water down and desensitize the whole experience with this vocabulary to the point that you cannot distinguish between those people who were abused and those who just had a rough time.

Please define "had a rough time"

I am not the enemy here, shady, you are.  I am just pointing it out to you.  You can continue to say you were kidnapped and dragged to a gulag where you were tortured and brainwashed.

I can and will, because that's what happened, with the exception of kidnapping.  My mom just lied to me to get me there, as the program had suggested.  There may not have been any "Transport Agencies" in Florida in 1985, in any case I had NO IDEA that my mother had even considered this, so lying to me was practical, and cheaper.

 But I don’t think it is fair to other survivors to embellish, lie or make up stories.

Again, please provide an example of lying, embellishment or made up stories ( actual examples, not your usual ridiculous semantic nonsense ).


...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 02:38:12 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Gonzo you did lie about me a couple of times in this thread.  When you posted the lawsuit I stated I did not see any reference to kidnapping and you stated that I called them liars.

Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
And I love the fact that you dismiss the hundreds of people in that lawsuit as being liars.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385320#p385320)

Then another time you were frustrated with our conversation you tried to make the readers believe that I was being paid by the industry to post here, thereby discrediting my opinions.  You have been here for about a day and know nothing about me yet you make up lies about me?

Quote

They wouldn't try to discredit the accusers by hiring somebody to sit and babysit forums twisting words and making incredibly broad unfounded allegations of lies. I think I should call them up and let them know they are over-paying you. You are a miserable failure at discrediting anything.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385283#p385283)

Most of us lie at one time or another, but I am curious as to why you need to lie about me here on the forum.  If you would do this to someone you hardly know about then what are we to believe about your stories of your time in a program?  Could it be that you are equally frustrated with the programs still being open and want to hurt them too?  Discredit them? Would this lead you to lie like you did about me?




...
First of all, I have read enouigh of your posts to see that you regularly accuse people who bash programs as liars, therefore by no stretch of the imagination I came to the conclusion that you would think that all plaintiffs in that lawsuit you see as liars. I think many would agree that this is a fair assumption to make and does not constitute me as being a liar.

As far as me saying you are a Nazi supporter who doesn't believe ion the holocaust, I've read enough of your posts to see that you are someone who attempts to discredit people who do not share your views: Fascism a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2:  tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>

I didn't think I needed to clarify, by Nazi I was alluding to your fascist mentality.
 
I didn't think these needed clarification, but I forgot I was conversing with someone of diminished mental capacities.

As far as your opinions being compromised by a vested interest in the program. My opinion only, and opinions cannot be lies. Opinion:1a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : approval, esteem
2a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view

I hope this helps your limited understanding of the English language. Your opinion that I am a liar, which you attempted to pass off as fact :"We have established that program survivors lie"- (Whooter) Would really make you the liar and not me.

Keep shoveling Whooter, you are doing a fine job. (That was a lie, just so we are clear). :moon:
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 30, 2010, 02:47:28 PM
Whooter I have already provided you with the definition of the word kidnap. Under your own standards it meets the definition, therefore the kids in question are neither lying nor exaggerating.

That being said you have yet to provide a single example of a survivor actually lying about his or her experiences despite your numerous accusations. Why don't you try and focus on your accusations towards Anne or I? You've claimed we've both lied about our experiences. Why not back up those claims?
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 30, 2010, 02:52:43 PM
Gonzo, I dont want to go off topic here about who you think I am and why I am here.  It has nothing to do with the topic at hand which is "do survivors lie?".

I provided proof that you lied twice here on the board and provided links.  You can start another link about how you think I am a Nazi if you like and I would be glad to discuss my motivations.  You should try to substantiate your claims with some proof (like I did with your lies) with links to where I proclaimed myself to be a Nazi  or some other type of evidence to support your allegations of me besides "I have read enough here on fornits to know"

So, Gonzotherapy,  we have established that you lie  (lied) and you claim to be a survivor.



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 02:58:46 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Gonzo you did lie about me a couple of times in this thread.  When you posted the lawsuit I stated I did not see any reference to kidnapping and you stated that I called them liars.


...
:agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:
http://www.wturley.com/Recent-Filings/2 ... Claims.pdf (http://www.wturley.com/Recent-Filings/20090115_Wood_PL_5th_Amd_Complaint_Without_Claims.pdf)

Pg 56 item 14 -- Kids taken AGAINST their will. (I.E. KIDNAPPING.)
Once again it is my opinion that you are a liar Whooter. Actually considering the mounting evidence, this may actually be a fact. :fuckoff:
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 03:02:47 PM
And since the entire group of people in this forum (YOU) who are calling survivors liars, I think exposing your character is well within the topic.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 03:11:36 PM
Escort (1) : a person or group of persons accompanying another to give protection or as a courtesy (2) : the man who goes on a date with a woman
Transport: to transfer or convey from one place to another <transporting ions across a living membrane>
2: to carry away with strong and often intensely pleasant emotion
3: to send to a penal colony overseas

I'm going to have to say Transport is accurate, but does not exclude kidnapping as part of the transportation.
Kidnap: to seize and detain or carry away by unlawful force or fraud and often with a demand for ransom
To be honest "ransom" fits in well here. Parents pay 10s of thousands to get their child back.

Opinion: You suck at semantics Whootboy. :deal:
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 30, 2010, 03:31:24 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Gonzo you did lie about me a couple of times in this thread.  When you posted the lawsuit I stated I did not see any reference to kidnapping and you stated that I called them liars.


...
:agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:
http://www.wturley.com/Recent-Filings/2 ... Claims.pdf (http://www.wturley.com/Recent-Filings/20090115_Wood_PL_5th_Amd_Complaint_Without_Claims.pdf)

Pg 56 item 14 -- Kids taken AGAINST their will. (I.E. KIDNAPPING.)
Once again it is my opinion that you are a liar Whooter. Actually considering the mounting evidence, this may actually be a fact. :fuckoff:

Nice try, you added the word kidnapping, Gonzo.  It is not referenced in the lawsuit like I pointed out to you earlier.  Hmmm.  I wonder why the lawyers didnt use the word kidnapping? If those kids were indeed kidnapped I am sure they would have pointed that out in the lawsuit.  Why is that?  Do you think that maybe the parents gave permission to the escort agency to transport the children and therefore they were not kidnapped?


The issue isnt whether or not you think I am a liar (There is already a thread dedicated to that subject that you can resurrect if you like).



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 03:34:38 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Gonzo you did lie about me a couple of times in this thread.  When you posted the lawsuit I stated I did not see any reference to kidnapping and you stated that I called them liars.


...
:agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:  :agree:
http://www.wturley.com/Recent-Filings/2 ... Claims.pdf (http://www.wturley.com/Recent-Filings/20090115_Wood_PL_5th_Amd_Complaint_Without_Claims.pdf)

Pg 56 item 14 -- Kids taken AGAINST their will. (I.E. KIDNAPPING.)
Once again it is my opinion that you are a liar Whooter. Actually considering the mounting evidence, this may actually be a fact. :fuckoff:

Nice try, you added the word kidnapping, Gonzo.  It is not referenced in the lawsuit like I pointed out to you earlier.  Hmmm.  I wonder why the lawyers didnt use the word kidnapping? If those kids were indeed kidnapped I am sure they would have pointed that out in the lawsuit.  Why is that?  Do you think that maybe the parents gave permission to the escort agency to transport the children and therefore they were not kidnapped?


The issue isnt whether or not you think I am a liar (There is already a thread dedicated to that subject that you can resurrect if you like).



...
OK. You call it escort or transport. Give me a definition of either of those words that includes the words -- TAKEN AGAINST THEIR WILL.


Fact- You suck at semantics.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 30, 2010, 03:41:22 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
OK. You call it escort or transport. Give me a definition of either of those words that includes the words -- TAKEN AGAINST THEIR WILL.


Fact- You suck at semantics.

Yes, I may suck at semantics, but you struggle with telling the truth and I have links to back me up.  So we have come full circle and proved you lied.

Lets give it a rest unless you want to take into the OFFA section.  I would really like to keep this thread on topic if I can.



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 04:20:55 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
OK. You call it escort or transport. Give me a definition of either of those words that includes the words -- TAKEN AGAINST THEIR WILL.


Fact- You suck at semantics.

Yes, I may suck at semantics, but you struggle with telling the truth and I have links to back me up.  So we have come full circle and proved you lied.

Lets give it a rest unless you want to take into the OFFA section.  I would really like to keep this thread on topic if I can.



...
Since you insist on calling me a liar, and I am a survivor, this is well within topic. Since you so far are the only one accusing survivors of lying about their transports being kidnapping, this is well within topic.

Once again, I have proven that what you call "lies" by me are nothing more than attempts to discredit the facts that I have presented. You are the only admitted and proven liar here. And since you are presenting falsities as proven "lies" by survivors, it is well within topic to show evidence that you are in fact the one lying.

I have not seen one link to my posts where you have proven I am a liar, Taken against their will by force is kidnapping, the reason the lawyers do no use the term kidnapping is most likely because what Utah courts see as kidnapping may not be applied because of the different child protection laws that Utah has. Does not change the fact that being taken against your will is kidnapping. The court is not a dictionary, the court does not make definitions of words. What may legally be accepted as kidnapping does not change the definition of the word.

Your links that "prove" I lied about anything I said is nothing more than your failed attempt at twisting words to support your idiocy.
If you have any sort of educational degree, I suggest you go spend your time trying to get your money back.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 04:26:46 PM
Once again, If you believe that the wording in the lawsuit -- Kids taken against their will; has a better definition than kidnap. Show me. Maybe it doesn't use the word kidnap because they assume no court official is retarded enough that they would believe TAKEN AGAINST THEIR WILL means anything other than kidnap.

Please, prove your truth. One definition of transport or escort that says AGAINST THEIR WILL.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 30, 2010, 04:47:17 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"

I have not seen one link to my posts where you have proven I am a liar,

I posted them at least twice.


Quote
If you have any sort of educational degree, I suggest you go spend your time trying to get your money back.

This is obviously a post out of frustration on your part.  You seem to like taking personal shots at people during a discussion.  A few posts back you created a lie about how I was being paid by the industry to post here on fornits in an attempt to discredit my posts.  Then you start crying that I twisted your words and you never meant to say it.

I understand your position, Gonzo, but you are wrong.  If the kids were indeed kidnapped then the court documents would have stated that.  Instead they said they took the kids against their will.  But you see if the parents give permission and the kids are underage then it is legal and not kidnapping.  If kidnapping were described as kids being taken against their will then most of the school bus drivers in the United states would be in federal prison.

Until the kids turn 18 the parents have the say not the kids.  I think this is where you are getting mixed up.



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 04:51:03 PM
Heres another link for you, the word KIDNAPPING used in the first few seconds to describe "escort services".
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 644740074# (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3527555530644740074#)
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 04:59:18 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"

I have not seen one link to my posts where you have proven I am a liar,

I posted them at least twice.


Quote
If you have any sort of educational degree, I suggest you go spend your time trying to get your money back.

This is obviously a post out of frustration on your part.  You seem to like taking personal shots at people during a discussion.  A few posts back you created a lie about how I was being paid by the industry to post here on fornits in an attempt to discredit my posts.  Then you start crying that I twisted your words and you never meant to say it.

I understand your position, Gonzo, but you are wrong.  If the kids were indeed kidnapped then the court documents would have stated that.  Instead they said they took the kids against their will.  But you see if the parents give permission and the kids are underage then it is legal and not kidnapping.  If kidnapping were described as kids being taken against their will then most of the school bus drivers in the United states would be in federal prison.

Until the kids turn 18 the parents have the say not the kids.  I think this is where you are getting mixed up.



...
If a schoolbus driver handcuffed that kid like they do in escorts, or physically threatened them into submission they would be arrested. I did not create a lie, I concluded that you have a vested interest in supporting and defending these schools, my opinion, which isn't a lie. You calling me a liar for that, well, makes you look stupid. Therefore I concluded that any education you have is worthless. Just my opinion. You twisted my words and tried to make it sound like I was paid to be here. Hmmmmmm, multibillion dollar industry trying to defend itself? No, that would never happen. Or me, backed by who? Who pays money to discredit this business? If you know of one sign me up, I'd gladly get paid to do this.
 And I'm afraid the definition of kidnapping does not include anything about parents permission. What do you think would happen if a schoolbus driver chased down a kid who didn't want to get on the bus, tackled them, and forced them handcuffed onto the bus?
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 05:24:58 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"

Gonzotherapy - "I have not seen one link to my posts where you have proven I am a liar",

I posted them at least twice.

Gonzotherapy -I have not seen one link where you have PROVEN that I am a liar
Quote
If you have any sort of educational degree, I suggest you go spend your time trying to get your money back.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

This is obviously a post out of frustration on your part.  You seem to like taking personal shots at people during a discussion.  A few posts back you created a lie about how I was being paid by the industry to post here on fornits in an attempt to discredit my posts.


Gonzotherapy - "Freudian slip, amazing how truthful they can be. Your doing a fine job discrediting yourself, you definitely don't need my help."


Until the kids turn 18 the parents have the say not the kids.  I think this is where you are getting mixed up.
Gonzotherapy - "I didn't realize that the definition of kidnapping changed the day you turn 18, Hmmmm, funny that's not mentioned in the dictionary."



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 30, 2010, 05:26:46 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
If a schoolbus driver handcuffed that kid like they do in escorts, or physically threatened them into submission they would be arrested.

Yes they would be arrested.  They are paid to drive a bus, but if the kid doesnt want to go to school then he is being taken against his/her will.


Quote
I did not create a lie, I concluded that you have a vested interest in supporting and defending these schools, my opinion, which isn't a lie. You calling me a liar for that, well, makes you look stupid.
You said I was being paid by the industry.  You stated this lie in an attempt to discredit me and my posts.  It was a lie with the intention to deceive the readers.

Quote
Therefore I concluded that any education you have is worthless. Just my opinion. You twisted my words and tried to make it sound like I was paid to be here. Hmmmmmm, multibillion dollar industry trying to defend itself? No, that would never happen. Or me, backed by who? Who pays money to discredit this business? If you know of one sign me up, I'd gladly get paid to do this.
 And I'm afraid the definition of kidnapping does not include anything about parents permission. What do you think would happen if a schoolbus driver chased down a kid who didn't want to get on the bus, tackled them, and forced them handcuffed onto the bus?

The school bus driver would be arrested if they did this, but if the kid doesnt want to go to school then he is being transported against his/her will.



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 05:36:38 PM
My opinion is that you have a vested interest in programs. Not a lie.

My opinion is that you are uneducated. Not a lie.

My conclusion from statements you have made that kids who "did not do well in programs lie about the abuse" made me come to the conclusion that you believed all kids involved in the lawsuit were liars. Also, not a lie, a conclusion based off of your posts.

My opinion is that you are a fascist. Not a lie.

You have not proven once that I lied about anything.

And like I said before, you definitely don't need my help discrediting you or making you look stupid.
You are doing a fine job. :tup:
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 30, 2010, 05:53:20 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
My opinion is that you have a vested interest in programs. Not a lie.

My opinion is that you are uneducated. Not a lie.

My conclusion from statements you have made that kids who "did not do well in programs lie about the abuse" made me come to the conclusion that you believed all kids involved in the lawsuit were liars. Also, not a lie, a conclusion based off of your posts.

My opinion is that you are a fascist. Not a lie.

You have not proven once that I lied about anything.

And like I said before, you definitely don't need my help discrediting you or making you look stupid.
You are doing a fine job. :tup:

Thank you for stating that it was your opinion, Gonzo.  If you had stated that it was your opinion that I was making money posting here (in your original post) then it would not have been considered a lie.  But unfortunately you did not.  I understand that you are new here, Gonzo, and therefore I will not press the matter any further.  From the above post I can see that you have revised your statements from facts - to - opinions and I can accept that appeasement and see that you have learned a valuable lesson that lying can affect not only yourself but many other peoples credibility.  When making statements that are opinions try to remember to communicate that it is opinion.. i.e. "It felt like I was being kidnapped"...  "It is my opinion that you are being paid by the industry" etc.
 

I think we have exhausted this thread.  In closing I hope that many of the readers try to choose their words wisely in describing what transpired during their time in a program.  Its only fair to all the other survivors to try to stick with the truth so as to not discredit or diminish other people’s experiences who really were truly kidnapped and abused.



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 30, 2010, 06:05:37 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
My opinion is that you have a vested interest in programs. Not a lie.

My opinion is that you are uneducated. Not a lie.

My conclusion from statements you have made that kids who "did not do well in programs lie about the abuse" made me come to the conclusion that you believed all kids involved in the lawsuit were liars. Also, not a lie, a conclusion based off of your posts.

My opinion is that you are a fascist. Not a lie.

You have not proven once that I lied about anything.

And like I said before, you definitely don't need my help discrediting you or making you look stupid.
You are doing a fine job. :tup:

Thank you for stating that it was your opinion, Gonzo.  If you had stated that it was your opinion that I was making money posting here (in your original post) then it would not have been considered a lie.  But unfortunately you did not.  I understand that you are new here, Gonzo, and therefore I will not press the matter any further.  From the above post I can see that you have revised your statements from facts - to - opinions and I can accept that appeasement and see that you have learned a valuable lesson that lying can affect not only yourself but many other peoples credibility.  When making statements that are opinions try to remember to communicate that it is opinion.. i.e. "It felt like I was being kidnapped"...  "It is my opinion that you are being paid by the industry" etc.
 

I think we have exhausted this thread.  In closing I hope that many of the readers try to choose their words wisely in describing what transpired during their time in a program.  Its only fair to all the other survivors to try to stick with the truth so as to not discredit or diminish other people’s experiences who really were truly kidnapped and abused.

...
The only person here with a demonstrable inability to "stick to the truth", Whooter, is you.  You started this thread with the supposition that program victims lie about their experiences, then provided zero credible proof for this supposition.  Now you are running away with your tail between your legs.  Get a life.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 06:08:19 PM
Apparently there is agreement that you have not proved once that a survivor has lied. Hence, termination of the thread, again.

Good work.

At first I did not realize that you were not intelligent enough to clearly see what is opinion and what is fact, I did not change what I wrote to delineate for others, just for you. But nice attempt at condescending, problem is you would have to be on a little higher rung to condescend to me.

You truly are, in my opinion of course, a complete douche.
 :cheers:   :ftard:
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 30, 2010, 06:13:41 PM
I agree. We've firmly established that kids who claim they are being kidnapped are, according to the definition, telling the truth.

We've also firmly established that you are as of yet unable to back up any of your claims or accusations that survivors lie about their experiences.

Case closed.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Anonymous on October 30, 2010, 08:15:59 PM
(http://http://www.hai2u.com/HotBlowjob.jpg)

This sums up this entire thread in one graphic meme.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 30, 2010, 08:59:31 PM
Ah, its good to see the old fornits regulars are back and have a place to express themselves, lol.



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 30, 2010, 09:27:06 PM
Whoops a couple of lies:

Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
And I love the fact that you dismiss the hundreds of people in that lawsuit as being liars.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385320#p385320)

Then another time you were frustrated with our conversation you tried to make the readers believe that I was being paid by the industry to post here, thereby discrediting my opinions.  You have been here for about a day and know nothing about me yet you make up lies about me?

Quote

They wouldn't try to discredit the accusers by hiring somebody to sit and babysit forums twisting words and making incredibly broad unfounded allegations of lies. I think I should call them up and let them know they are over-paying you. You are a miserable failure at discrediting anything.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385283#p385283)



...
Title: Re: Why do Survivors need to Lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 09:48:08 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
Quote from: "Whooter"
It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.  


...

You implied here that the allegations of abuse were lies, therefore you are calling all of the people in the lawsuit liars.
And as far as me saying you are paid by the programs, that is my conclusion, how does making an assumption based on observations make me a liar? Why else would you possibly spend this much time discrediting survivors? Not one thing you accused me of lying about did I lie about. You see, there is this thing called intelligence, some people use that intelligence, look at facts and make assumptions based on those facts, this is called analyzation. I know I'm sure I've completely lost you here douche, but really, you calling me a liar over that is no different than you calling the people who described their "transport" as kidnapping liars. You are grasping at straws here, and once again you have proved no lie. Good god you're a douche.
 :tup:  :moon:
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 30, 2010, 10:00:01 PM
Nice try, Gonzo, keep trying
(http://http://diannej.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/backpedaling34.jpg)
 a couple of lies:

Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
And I love the fact that you dismiss the hundreds of people in that lawsuit as being liars.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385320#p385320)

Then another time you were frustrated with our conversation you tried to make the readers believe that I was being paid by the industry to post here, thereby discrediting my opinions.  You have been here for about a day and know nothing about me yet you make up lies about me?

Quote

They wouldn't try to discredit the accusers by hiring somebody to sit and babysit forums twisting words and making incredibly broad unfounded allegations of lies. I think I should call them up and let them know they are over-paying you. You are a miserable failure at discrediting anything.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385283#p385283)



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 10:08:39 PM
This is almost like talking to a fucking five year old, those are not lies little whooter.

Gonzo -- "Whooter you're a douche"
Whooter -- "No I'm not"
Gonzo -- "No whooter, you really are a douche"
Whooter -- "Nu'uh, I'm not a douche"
Gonzo -- "Seriously whooter, you are the biggest douche in the universe"
Whooter -- "Stop, leave me alone, your a liar"
Gonzo -- "No whooter, you're a douche"
Whooter --"I'm not a douche, liar, liar,liar,liar,liar...."
Gonzo -- "Poor whooter, fucking douche....

Those are not lies you fucking pratz.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 30, 2010, 10:16:54 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
This is almost like talking to a fucking five year old, those are not lies little whooter.

Gonzo -- "Whooter you're a douche"
Whooter -- "No I'm not"
Gonzo -- "No whooter, you really are a douche"
Whooter -- "Nu'uh, I'm not a douche"
Gonzo -- "Seriously whooter, you are the biggest douche in the universe"
Whooter -- "Stop, leave me alone, your a liar"
Gonzo -- "No whooter, you're a douche"
Whooter --"I'm not a douche, liar, liar,liar,liar,liar...."
Gonzo -- "Poor whooter, fucking douche....

Those are not lies you fucking pratz.

Calm down Gonzo, there is always tomorrow.


(http://http://www.iancommunity.org/galleries/default-image/Toddler_Tantrum.jpg)

...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 10:19:54 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Nice try, Gonzo, keep trying
 a couple of lies:

Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
And I love the fact that you dismiss the hundreds of people in that lawsuit as being liars.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385320#p385320)

Then another time you were frustrated with our conversation you tried to make the readers believe that I was being paid by the industry to post here, thereby discrediting my opinions.  You have been here for about a day and know nothing about me yet you make up lies about me?

Quote

They wouldn't try to discredit the accusers by hiring somebody to sit and babysit forums twisting words and making incredibly broad unfounded allegations of lies. I think I should call them up and let them know they are over-paying you. You are a miserable failure at discrediting anything.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385283#p385283)



...

As far as I can see neither of these are lies, my opinion is that you have a vested monetary interest in programs. My assumption based on YOUR posts leads me to believe that you think the allegations of abuse are lies. Outlined in the lawsuit it specifically states kids were taken against their will as we have gone over the definition of kidnapping numerous times, this would mean kidnapping. You however stated that if anyone called being "escorted" kidnapping, they were liars. Therefore I came to the easy conclusion that you were calling the kids in the lawsuit liars. Not a lie whooter, I mean Your holiness king douche of the universe. But nice try.

And if I used your guidelines for what is and what is not a lie, damn near every word you post would be a lie.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 30, 2010, 10:43:27 PM
Gonzo, you should have said you were stating an opinion when you posted it.  You are doing damage control now and stating it was an opinion.  The other one stands.  Its no big deal, gonzo, no one is pissed.  I have told lies myself from time to time.  The difference is that I  admit to them.  If you want to continue to jump around the issue, thats cool too.



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 30, 2010, 10:50:14 PM
Once again, I delineated my opinions because you are too daft to come to those conclusions yourself. Once again douche you still have not proven jack shit. Just like you had no proof that anyone lied about being kidnapped. You are not the one who decides what is and what is not truth. That is not in the realm of power for the King Douche of the Universe.

Me saying you are being paid by the program, not a lie, I later specified that it was my opinion (for your special needs). If I knew it was true I would post the information to prove it. I'm just trying to help you, special people deserve to be helped.

My conclusion that you called all the people in the lawsuit liars, not a lie, a conclusion based on your posts. Now unless you have some proof that anything I said was actually a lie. Go douche yourself douchebag. You are boring me.
Andn I am so sorry that intelligent conversation leaves you so far behind that all you can resort to is -- liar, liar, your a liar, whaahaa, liar, liar, why does everybody hate me, your all liars, whaahaa, liar, your a liar, I'm not a douche whaa,haa, liar, liar. :waaaa:

Do the world a favor :suicide:
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Anonymous on October 30, 2010, 10:57:30 PM
(http://http://www.mosbef.com/photos/middle%20finger-thumbnail.jpg)
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on October 30, 2010, 11:00:30 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
This is almost like talking to a fucking five year old, those are not lies little whooter.

Gonzo -- "Whooter you're a douche"
Whooter -- "No I'm not"
Gonzo -- "No whooter, you really are a douche"
Whooter -- "Nu'uh, I'm not a douche"
Gonzo -- "Seriously whooter, you are the biggest douche in the universe"
Whooter -- "Stop, leave me alone, your a liar"
Gonzo -- "No whooter, you're a douche"
Whooter --"I'm not a douche, liar, liar,liar,liar,liar...."
Gonzo -- "Poor whooter, fucking douche....

Those are not lies you fucking pratz.

Awesome!   :roflmao:  This pretty much sums up all of Whooters threads, read one and you've read them all.

 :twofinger: Get a life Whooter  :twofinger:
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 31, 2010, 12:00:18 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
I have told lies myself from time to time.  


...
I'm just glad we're all in agreement about one thing.

Whooter - The Most Prolific Troll Fornits Has Ever Seen - The Definitive Links
And what was that about me being a liar when I said you had a vested monetary interest in programs?
Apparently you do have a vested monetary interest in Aspen Education. Hmmmmmm. So that means when you called me a liar that actually made you the liar. My god man. Just some advice, maybe you should really just not talk at all. Talking makes you sound stupid.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on October 31, 2010, 01:11:17 AM
Quote
As far as I can see neither of these are lies, my opinion is that you have a vested monetary interest in programs. My assumption based on YOUR posts leads me to believe that you think the allegations of abuse are lies. Outlined in the lawsuit it specifically states kids were taken against their will as we have gone over the definition of kidnapping numerous times, this would mean kidnapping. You however stated that if anyone called being "escorted" kidnapping, they were liars. Therefore I came to the easy conclusion that you were calling the kids in the lawsuit liars. Not a lie whooter, I mean Your holiness king douche of the universe. But nice try.

And if I used your guidelines for what is and what is not a lie, damn near every word you post would be a lie.

For the record he has admitted having a fiduciary interest in this abusive industry. He has claimed far less than 1% of all kids in this industry were ever abused. He has claimed that the ones who claim to have been abused are those who did not complete their programs are now looking to blame someone for the current state of their lives. He has also claimed every kid who ever claimed to be abused at ASR was a liar.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Anonymous on October 31, 2010, 01:13:44 AM
The real truth of the matter is I'm madly in love with John Reuben. He's my bagel to his lox, my sonny to his cher. He's the cream on my wheat as well. Without each other we are nothing, with each other the world is a better place for our catty man love.

I :heart: u whootie... You complete me.

I also hate white girls, uppity bitches.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on October 31, 2010, 01:33:03 AM
Quote from: "RobertDouche"
The real truth of the matter is I'm madly in love with John Reuben. He's my bagel to his lox, my sonny to his cher. He's the cream on my wheat as well. Without each other we are nothing, with each other the world is a better place for our catty man love.

I :heart: u whootie... You complete me.

I also hate white girls, uppity bitches.

Word, yo.
  :roflmao:  O0
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Anonymous on October 31, 2010, 01:53:12 AM
You guys need professional help in the worse kind of way.   ::OMG::
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on October 31, 2010, 08:40:35 PM
Happy Halloween! LOL

(http://http://cdn.buzznet.com/assets/users9/ronda/default/happy-halloween--large-msg-1130512036-2.jpg)



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on November 01, 2010, 07:00:21 PM
So I'm taking a poll, The question is: What is Whooters motivation for his thread about kids being molested at school?

Is it A: He is trying to take the spotlight off of program abuse.
       B: He's just a douche and has nothing better to do.
       C: He's making a memoir of his buddies exploits.
       D: He just wishes he wasn't impotent so he could get in on all the action.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Dysfunction Junction on November 02, 2010, 09:49:58 AM
Whooter is back to his anon posting of disgusting porn.  Thanks, Whooter.  We all really needed to see your disgusting fetishes.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Gonzotherapy on November 02, 2010, 07:00:03 PM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
So I'm taking a poll, The question is: What is Whooters motivation for his thread about kids being molested at school?

Is it A: He is trying to take the spotlight off of program abuse.
       B: He's just a douche and has nothing better to do.
       C: He's making a memoir of his buddies exploits.
       D: He just wishes he wasn't impotent so he could get in on all the action.

And I really love the tactic of putting filthy porn next to anything you don't want people to read. Ahhh, the eternal sickness of an immoral mind...
Do you think they send these program pushers to some kind of demented propaganda school ... Or is it just bad genes?
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Watchful Yeoman on November 03, 2010, 07:17:46 AM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
So I'm taking a poll, The question is: What is Whooters motivation for his thread about kids being molested at school?

Is it A: He is trying to take the spotlight off of program abuse.
       B: He's just a douche and has nothing better to do.
       C: He's making a memoir of his buddies exploits.
       D: He just wishes he wasn't impotent so he could get in on all the action.

And I really love the tactic of putting filthy porn next to anything you don't want people to read. Ahhh, the eternal sickness of an immoral mind...
Do you think they send these program pushers to some kind of demented propaganda school ... Or is it just bad genes?

A,B and D.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 04, 2010, 09:54:53 AM
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
So I'm taking a poll, The question is: What is Whooters motivation for his thread about kids being molested at school?

Is it A: He is trying to take the spotlight off of program abuse.
       B: He's just a douche and has nothing better to do.
       C: He's making a memoir of his buddies exploits.
       D: He just wishes he wasn't impotent so he could get in on all the action.

And I really love the tactic of putting filthy porn next to anything you don't want people to read.
Ahhh, the eternal sickness of an immoral mind...
Do you think they send these program pushers to some kind of demented propaganda school ... Or is it just bad genes?

Gawd, I HATE that!  I'm reading along and BAM!  Tubgirl pops up on the screen making me want to puke.  Who the fuck does that??

Edited to add:  A, B & D
Title: Whooter posts nasty porn
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2010, 12:15:57 PM
that's what whooter does when he loses arguments and gets frustrated.  he posts really vile porn anonymously and then tries to pin it on "disgusting fornits posters" and then uses that as an example of how people behave here.  90% of that nasty shit is whooter's work.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on November 06, 2010, 08:21:31 PM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Whooter, everybody lies.  What is wrong with you?  I lie myself if people are not listening to me or I am trying to get peoples attention on a topic.  It doesnt mean that I lie about everything.

Shady, I understand this.  But the problem is how can the readers differentiate between your lies and the truth.  How do we know what is real or not?  This is the trouble that posters like yourself pose to us readers.  What we suppose to believe?
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: RobertBruce on November 07, 2010, 07:52:30 AM
What are readers supposed to believe with you Whooter. I don't know that you ever told the truth on here, aside from you assertion that you have a son, that you have intimate details about John Reuben's life, and that you believe less than 1 % of all kids are ever abused in the TTI, most everything else you say is a lie.

What should we believe?
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Shadyacres on November 08, 2010, 12:20:23 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Whooter, everybody lies.  What is wrong with you?  I lie myself if people are not listening to me or I am trying to get peoples attention on a topic.  It doesnt mean that I lie about everything.

Shady, I understand this.  But the problem is how can the readers differentiate between your lies and the truth.  How do we know what is real or not?  This is the trouble that posters like yourself pose to us readers.  What we suppose to believe?

If you are being paid to do this, you are being paid too much.  Do you see what I mean?
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on November 08, 2010, 08:11:55 AM
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Whooter, everybody lies.  What is wrong with you?  I lie myself if people are not listening to me or I am trying to get peoples attention on a topic.  It doesnt mean that I lie about everything.

Shady, I understand this.  But the problem is how can the readers differentiate between your lies and the truth.  How do we know what is real or not?  This is the trouble that posters like yourself pose to us readers.  What we suppose to believe?

If you are being paid to do this, you are being paid too much.  Do you see what I mean?

If someone is paying you to deceive the readers here on fornits you are doing a good job and should ask them for a raise.  Do you see what I mean?



...
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: DannyB ll on November 08, 2010, 09:43:42 AM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Whooter, everybody lies.  What is wrong with you?  I lie myself if people are not listening to me or I am trying to get peoples attention on a topic.  It doesnt mean that I lie about everything.

Shady, I understand this.  But the problem is how can the readers differentiate between your lies and the truth.  How do we know what is real or not?  This is the trouble that posters like yourself pose to us readers.  What we suppose to believe?

If you are being paid to do this, you are being paid too much.  Do you see what I mean?

If someone is paying you to deceive the readers here on fornits you are doing a good job and should ask them for a raise.  Do you see what I mean?



You are a fraud and a plant Whooter , AKA John Reuben. Just man up and take your lumps, how long do you think people will go with out total confrontation of your bull-crap here, John.Your not liked nor respected, and have been found to be, an antagonistic influence here. How and were do gather the right to talk about treatment.??? If your shit was so together, you would have never been in treatment yourself.

You sound like the patient who told the Dr, I am not  crazy, in-spite of the fact you were already institutionalized.Stand up for the truth John not your illusions and dilutions.We all see your sickness and need for attention.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: Whooter on November 08, 2010, 09:47:45 AM
Quote from: "DannyB ll"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Whooter, everybody lies.  What is wrong with you?  I lie myself if people are not listening to me or I am trying to get peoples attention on a topic.  It doesnt mean that I lie about everything.

Shady, I understand this.  But the problem is how can the readers differentiate between your lies and the truth.  How do we know what is real or not?  This is the trouble that posters like yourself pose to us readers.  What we suppose to believe?

If you are being paid to do this, you are being paid too much.  Do you see what I mean?

If someone is paying you to deceive the readers here on fornits you are doing a good job and should ask them for a raise.  Do you see what I mean?



You are a fraud and a plant Whooter , AKA John Reuben. Just man up and take your lumps, how long do you think people will go with out total confrontation of your bull-crap here, John.Your not liked nor respected, and have been found to be, an antagonistic influence here. How and were do gather the right to talk about treatment.If your shit was so together, you would have never been in treatment yourself.

You sound like the patient who told the Dr, I am not  crazy, in-spit of the fact you were already institutionalized.Stand up for the truth John not your illusions and dilutions.We all see your sickness and need for attention.

Readers, I think we just heard from a very credible source.  From someone who is not afraid to stand up and be himself  errrr, I mean pretending to be someone else.

Thats was classic.  Thanks for the morning humor.  I think the real DannyB (The one you are pretending to be) would appreciate the irony.



...
Title: Whooter
Post by: Froderik on November 08, 2010, 09:50:31 AM
(http://http://www.angryasianman.com/images/angry/pinocchio.jpg)
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: DannyB ll on November 08, 2010, 09:57:06 AM
You are a fraud and a plant Whooter , AKA John Reuben. Just man up and take your lumps, how long do you think people will go with out total confrontation of your bull-crap here, John.Your not liked nor respected, and have been found to be, an antagonistic influence here. How and were do gather the right to talk about treatment.If your shit was so together, you would have never been in treatment yourself.

You sound like the patient who told the Dr, I am not  crazy, in-spit of the fact you were already institutionalized.Stand up for the truth John not your illusions and dilutions.We all see your sickness and need for attention. Readers, I think we just heard from a very credible source.  From someone who is not afraid to stand up and be himself  errrr, I mean pretending to be someone else. The irony is you calling the kettle black, Who is Whooter,?? Google it and it comes up John Reuben, Is that who you are,?? Enlighten us John, and show your the bigger person and come out of the closet. Tell everyone who Whooter is,we already know, but it would be best coming from you.
Title: Re: The smoking gun - do survivors lie?
Post by: DannyB ll on November 08, 2010, 10:19:23 AM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... 091OQemldQ (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&sqi=2&ved=0CCQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fencyclopediadramatica.com%2FDaniel_Gauss&ei=9BDYTICECtj6nweN67m4CQ&usg=AFQjCNFXTNMnc-HgTTK0Fs8k091OQemldQ)


Check out WP80. 100% SFW all the time! Want to help protect free speech? Donate today.
On Saturday, October 30, OldDirtyBtard was martyred by the Pharisitic bastards at the Church of Scientology. The cause of death was labeled suicide, and the police refuse to investigate the issue further. He will be sorely missed. As ODB was a career alcoholic, over-aged EDiots (a word invented by the Captain himself) are recommended to take a shot in remembrance.
Daniel Gauss
   This article needs moar info.
You can help by adding moar info.



Mother of the fucking year. QUEENSRYCHE MOTHERFUCKER m/
Contents [hide]
1 Background
2 Fornits
2.1 Creepypasta
3 Group Therapy Topics
4 Reaction
5 The tears start rolling in
6 Whooter hears a Who
7 See Also
8 External Links
Background

Daniel H. Gauss is a shell of a man, a failure as a father, and the cuckolded husband of Victoria A. Gauss (Vicki_Chic), a groupie who travels with his money. He spends his days working his ass off for a loving wife, in the hopes that he will support a loving family for his daughter. Sadly, he is on the road most of the time. Sadder still, so is the mother!


Wonder who she's buying this for?


Pictured: A very plastic Wife. Not pictured: Husband. Hmm...
Once upon a time, mommy dearest decided it would be a perfectly wonderful idea to send her daughter to a boarding school where she will be kept isolated from all contact with friends and extended family for at least nine months, getting her out of the house so mom and dad can enjoy some quality time together. Or, more likely, apart. Nevertheless, with the kid out of the house, she's no longer forced to worry that her child will grow up like she does, forced to luck out by marrying into money, or in some other way fucking for it, she could then spend the rest of her years fucking shitty band members of a shitty band, and never ever putting out for Daniel. What did she get that GyneFlex for, anyway?
Fornits

All this would have gone just swimmingly had the girl not found Fornits, starting a huge white knight stampede and provoking lulz. You know you're going to have nothing but good, wholesome family fun when the first reply is from Pile of Dead Kids.
As it turns out, the "treatment center" they intend to send their daughter is a torture chamber run by sick fucks (Hmm, who couldn't have guessed that from the whole "nine months in isolation" bit?) which will cost him thousands of dollars a month and has bogus accreditation.
However, the very slimmest glimmer of hope that he can have his daughter 'fixed' despite his shitty non-parenting, as well as the non-parenting and shitty example setting of the mother, motivated both to desperately rationalize their horrible decision. The fact that she can be passed off and thus out of sight, out of mind, and someone else can take the blame for her not being a perfect middle class white girl might have factored in as well, but who knows? If only Vicki had an abortion instead, amirite?
Regardless, the girl did her homework, grabbed a pseudonym, found out what she was in for, and hilarity ensued.
Creepypasta
A highly helpful individual on fornits thought it would be useful to warn poor "Morgan" about what the program had in store, and thought this would somehow convince the parents into not sending her off:
I believe that the best choice for this thread will be to advice Morgan how to survive
the program.

When she arrives she will be taken to the campus we have not been able to locate, once
her parents have left. It is located in the woods. They have about 50 girls in the
program and half of them are in the woods. It is here they will break her.

According to survivors on Myspace the staff is 18 year olds just out of the high school
hired for their muscles. They are not able to give therapy, but they are good at breaking
people down because giving such a young inexperienced person power to control the lives
of others will result in abuse of power.

How can Morgan avoid a beating? How can we prepare her for the possibility of a haircut,
 fingering of her private parts and the loss of rings, earrings, necklaces and her
private clothes? How can we advice her to fake a breaking and confess something which
would satisfy the counselor coming around once per month?

It is the time now until the program, which is important. It is very important that her
 friends at school are ready to air memorial groups on community networks as if she has
 died the minute she goes to the program. It is important that she prepare herself by
not acting out but to make her mentally ready to go to prison, so she has a strategy
once she is forced to surrender herself at the academy.

Her parents will never know what has taken place in the wood. They have been a tour of
 the campus for the good, but broken girls and it is a totally other environment, so
she should prepare herself for something her parents would not believe the program has.

It is a difficult task, but here on the board we have survivors. Please give her some
good advice, so she can survive with as few scars as possible. According to the
survivors on Myspace the program is a normal program which does not prepare the
graduates for life, so she will have to work hard to catch up once she will be released.
Group Therapy Topics

A big part of 'therapy' in programs is forcing everyone to admit to every embarrassing, humiliating, personal, dangerous, threatening or sensitive thought, secret or fantasy - in a group setting! This includes but is by no means limited to phobias, traumas from the past, and the full litany of sexual thoughts. When these are exhausted, they are then generally encouraged to make up new ones, to prove they are working the program. Forcing teenage girls to discuss sexual details? Who came up with this?
Naturally, this means ED must compile the first list of things a 15 year old girl would have to admit to, or what they could be coerced into making up. For best effect, read this in your mind with the voice of a terrified teenage girl:
I used my fingers.
I humped things.
I use the faucet/showerhead.
I let the dog lick me.
I used sharpies.
I kissed a boy.
I kissed a girl (and I liked it!)
I gave a bj.
I ate a girl.
I ate ass.
I had penetrative vaginal sex.
I had penetrative anal sex.
I gave sex with a strapon.
I sold my body for money, like my mom!
I fucked a dog.
I fucked my mom, dad, dog, and the president so I could get another hit of coke while living on the street because I hadn't been saved by the program yet.
I'm sure the average EDiot could figure out where it goes from here, and how Morgan's parents feel this will surely help their child get a solid foundation to enter college at 18 without any emotional or academic problems at all! Straight INC was very fond of having the group facilitator announce they had a drug problem which made them fuck a dog; all the kids had to then make up such a story about how they fucked dogs while high. One can only imagine how far we've progressed in the past thirty years!
With any luck, she'll quickly progress in the program and then can move on to other more pressing subjects, such as coping with being raised by idiots, being stuck in a fucked up program in the wilderness, and being on ED.
Reaction

At this juncture, any reasonable man with a functioning pair of testicles would have said that he would not pay half his paycheck to send his daughter to be sexually probed, instead telling his wife where to go and enjoying a sammich.
Daniel did not.
 
“     
shit, been sleeping [on the couch] for years
     „
 
—Daniel Gauss, admitting his lack of manhood
 
“     
I'm still not in 100% agreement we need ti spend a kings ransome and send Morgan away but vicki, being a highly intuitive person has put it out to her spirit guides and god in general
     „
 
—Yes, because that's what you should entrust your daughter's life to. Your wife's spirit guides.
A man chooses. A slave obeys.
The tears start rolling in



Oh dear god this didn't take long at all
As can be expected, the denizens of fornits sense butthurt - and the light of day, for that matter - and immediately begin a campaign of tears to avoid further purification by lulz.
Not soon thereafter, fornits poster SUCK IT decided it would be a good idea to try to put a cork on this big bottle of lulz. Naturally, reversion and vandalism is the last thing that will EVER work on ED, and after getting a warm hellogoodbye, the fag got banned for being an unfunny loser.


LOL, Flex Wheeler tries to become a tough guy


Shitstorm in progress
Upon his timely banning, gigantic faggot Flex Wheeler decided to threaten an EDiot on fornits in some attempt to stop the lulz or the spread of hilarity and general ownage. Naturally, here at ED, we laugh at internet tough guys and call them stupid, fuck their mom and then tell them how bad her cunt smells - and how loose it is.
IF ONLY SHE HAD GYNEFLEX. IF ONLY BILLY MAYS COULD STILL SELL THEM. WHO KNOWS? MAYBE HE COULD SPEAK TO THE SPIRIT GUIDES AND TELL THEM TO QUIT BEING STUPID NIGGERS! Flex really loves the Gausses, or, is in fact one of them in disguise. Anonymous could not be reached for comment, but approves the attempt made at hiding who he is.
Whooter hears a Who

  :jawdrop:  :jawdrop:  :jawdrop:   Busybody John Reuben, who is also a general fucktard, dickless loser and spineless big-mouth better known as Whooter (formerly "the who") caught wind of an attempt at keeping a kid from a program, and more importantly, sweet sweet money from his coffers, and stepped in as only a true man of genius could.


oh my god you can't wish for better lulz


Whooter tries to dox, and e-psych...


...but fails.


Whooter obviously has full say over who goes to e-jail.


Whooter is a very prolific troll. This makes him about average for Fornits.
Now, this is far from the only genius thing Johnny has done in recent memory - or for that matter, on fornits at all. Nevertheless, it's better to see for yourself. :beat:  :beat:  :beat:
See Also

My Tiny Dick
Sue Scheff
Josef Fritzl
Dying Alone
Cuckold
BDSM
Masochism
Fetish
Butthurt
External Links

The thread that started the shitstorm
Cunt's myspace
Cunt's facebook
Cunt's photobucket
The program
Category: People



http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... Pf8_4TErDA (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CBoQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.savingteens.org%2Fnews&ei=zhTYTMe6Hsz8nAeFr6ioCQ&usg=AFQjCNHyyePXWA-BnwgxVILXPf8_4TErDA)