Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on May 12, 2002, 11:18:00 PM
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I stumbled on this website after doing a I-net search on Art Barker. I have to agree with everyone who has posted horror stories about the Seed. I first went in to the seed in '73 at the time they were at the old tropical race track in Miami. They closed the race track facility and I wound up at the old warehouse on state road 84.
I was only 14 when I went in and was a little guy, around 5'0" tall, I wound up being in there for 13 months on a 5 month program. While I was in there I was physically beaten and mentally tortured. The place was an absolute joke and a fraud. The sad part is that the fraud was played on our parents and we were the victims. The scars will always be there.
It took me a number of years to achieve some degree of normalcy in my life. I can remember seeing a documentary on that Straight Inc program many years ago and having nightmares for about a month afterwards. That is what I ean about the scars always being there.
I have been an attorney for about 9 years and on many occassions, on my way to the Broward Courthouse, I have drove by the andrews avenue facility, and get pissed when I see the sign. If I knew the law back then I would own Art Barker forever. Any decent lawyer would wipe that piece of crap out. He and his wife Shelly, that piece of trash Libby, John Underwood and others are lower than the slime at the bottom of a sewer.
Anyhow I am glad to see a website like this and I wish everybody that has survived the seed, straight inc or anything else like it the very best.
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And HEllo to you as well. I am so happy to be finally meeting survivors of the Seed. The horror show that was the seed was my little private shamfull secret for years and years. I have now "outed" myself to friends and even my own children, and I feel so much better.
As for Art & Co, they know about us and in my opinion, are feeling the shame they heaped on us big time. Art has been donating money feverishly to charity and recently closed the seed.
Welcome to our forum, and if you want to remain anonymous, pick a fake name or use only your first name.
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Hey Mr. Anonymous - are ya coming to our conference? See http://www.trebach.org/abuse (http://www.trebach.org/abuse) We need ya there. Glad to hear you have survived.
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Hello anonymous,
We're having a Seed / Straight reunion on June 8 - 9 in Saint Petersburg, Fl. where Straight was founded out of the closing of The Seed-St Pete.
We are looking for attorneys to sit on a panel on Sunday June 9. We'd love to have you on that panel.
[email protected]
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Hello again :
I am the person who started this thread and I am glad to see some response. My name is Mike, I don't need to be anonomous because because I don't feel like I have anything to be ashamed off in terms of being in the Seed 28-29 years ago. Art Barker and his followers (staff members) are the scum bags , not us.
In terms of this reunion I am not sure if I could add anything to the legal panel because I have not been involved in any litigation involving these kind of issues. I practice primarily in the area of criminal law. If any of the lawyers involved with your cause have cases going on in South Florida I might be able to lend a hand.
Like everyone else who has posted on this board I have my own horror stories about my captivity in the Seed or it's predeccesors. Hopefully message boards like this one will encourage or enable people to air out their feelings and vent. In addition they may help potential future victims make more informed choices on where to send their children or where not to send them.
If I can be of any assistance e-mail be at [email protected]
[ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2002-05-15 03:11 ]
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Hello, Mike. It is a pleasure to make your acquaintance. Who was John Underwood? Was he a senior staff member with a new york Accent? If so, he came to St Pete with Libby, Shelly, and Arthur to do the devil's work.
Tell us about some of your experiences while you were there.
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John Underwood was a senior staff member in '73-'74. I am not sure what happend after that. He was a big skinny guy from New York with blondish/brown hair. I also remember Arthur, another heavy set black guy named Robert who used to cut hair, a lady named Debbie del Bueno( or something to that effect) Penny, a heavy set black lady who was a good singer, there was a guy named Scott who was also from New York,. Back then they had facilities in Ft. Lauderdale, St. pete, Ft Pierce, and Miami, I was in Miami when they closed and merged with broward. I think they kind of rotated the staff members.
I remember one particular incident that happend right before Christmas at an open meeting. I had been in the program for about 7 months and had just got started over. They had all of the kids singing etnic songs and when it came to the jewish kids I would not get up and sing. They had some dignartaries there such as newspaper writers, judges ect... When John Underwood kept proding me to sing I told him to F-himself in front of the entire open meeting. I was dragged back to the offices out of public view immediately. After the meeting I was brought in front of the group and Underwood went nuts on me. He was demanding that I apologize to the group and I wouldn't. This went on for about 30-45 minutes,(it seemed like a lifetime then) and all I did was glare at him and who ever took a turn a yelling at me. I never apologized and I guess they were tired and finally started letting everyone go home.
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Wow, you were a brave kid, I lived in constant fear of being called on. I too was forteen, but fortunately, I was able to hide out pretty good in group and rarely got called on, and did my best to avoid personal confrontation. I did some things there that I am not proud of, like helping restrain kids trying to escape. i was so young and totally submitted to the cult, which caused me great shame. I was in St Pete starting in June of 73. Art, Libby, Suzie Connors, and several others from Ft Lauderdale were there. I have an Art Barker story that I will post soon that I think you really will appreciate.
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Hey Mike - if ya can't come as a lawyer, then come as a survivor - because you are . . . we all are. Take care -
Mike, Straight Survivor '78 -'80
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hey, I started in andrews, then to 84
in @71 til I think about 75 / 76 - they liked me so much I had to get it right a few times, at least that's what Underwood would tell me. Small world huh
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Yes i agree.It is truly a small world.
This site has given me comfort in knowing that I was not alone with my feelings about the emotional abuse that took place in there.
Welcome,
debi
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It is really strange to hear all these names like John Underwood and Penny... I remember when Penny came in and was scared like the rest of us, I don't know what happened but before I knew it, she was a staff member... I remember thinking that was a little freaky, but whatever....I was 13 when I was forced in and 2 days later I turned 14, Happy Birthday to me...I think the guy's name that was from New York was Danny, because he had a strong New York accent and he was the one who talked to me first and I thought he was a pretty nice guy, until I went to him after that old comer took his belt to my ass in front of his family, and told him how bad he had embarrassed me by taking my pants down and his come back was good for him, I didn't thing he had it in him, now I have a whole new respect for him... Boy, was I crushed, but it was then that I knew I was on my own and I had to do everything and anything to make them all believe that I was part of them... I even made myself belive it..... I sure would like to run into that oldcomer today, I am 43 now and that's a scar that I will probably take to my grave......
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Underwood was the top of the food chain then,
He was the male Libby, he was equal to her in all ways, if anything, he was little above her then, I've seen him over rule her once or twice,and her take it.
Before John, there was Paul, forget his last name right now, but they were the top rung, if you wanted to get near (god) himself, you HAD to go through him.
Then one day he married a staffer named Pam,
and left to live his life. (smart move)
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I remember the night john went off on you, scared the shit out of me. I kept thinking of that night for awhile and all I could remember was art saying we had a bigger tree then the white house, then I had a flash, then a flood like I was there, it was scarry.
I remember thinking, I'm glad that's not me.
I was an oldcomer then,
do you remember which room it was? I want to validate my memory, was it the big room, or was it the smaller one?
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It was in the big room, I remember after the incident happend the staff escorted me out of public view to the back offices. A few of them really let me have it and I thought that was the end of it. After the open meeting broke up and the parents and guest left Underwood called me out and really went off on me.
Do you remember when the so called "druggies" would drive by on 84 and throw shit at dudes doing security, at the front gate, and at the building in general ? Or would drive by and yell all kinds of shit ? In retrospect that was pretty funny stuff.
About the memory I can remember a few peoples names but not many. I still can recall alot of faces in my mind, which is kind of weird considering I graduated back in '74.
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I remember it, it was the big room, I just wanted to be sure, we did raps in there and everything, they had the back area set up for offices for a long tine in the begining.
Yeah, I remember the gate, we used to get a lot of traffic yelling back then, I always thought it was funny, even people come on the program and say, I used to drive by and yell and stuff, some people even got shot at,
I did the gate a few time's, I loved it, cause I didn't have to be in group.
remember what Art would drive in then, That long black limo, with robert chung driving.
I guess roberts still taking him were he wants to go, from what I hear.
Good to know some of still survived from way back then.
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remember what Art would drive in then, That long black limo, with robert chung driving.
Reminds me of a movie I once saw;
driving Mr. Artie
Serious, he used to be driven in a black limo?
Naw, it wasn't a cult....
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For John_Ft.Pierce, this brings an old thread back to the top. , note the date is was originally posted. More than three years before scumbag Underwood showed up on this site.
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I spoke w/ JU on the phone the other day. We talked of mice and kings and many things for about an hour till I had to go pick up my daughter from work. At some point in that conversation, I asked him if he had ever considered that he had been so cloistered in the whole thing that his perceptions of it were warped. He said no, never considered it. Probably never will.
R.I.P. Big FrankIn no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.
--James Madison, U.S. President
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Excellent point Ginger. It only proves what folks like you and Greg have been posting about for a number of years. These people are so close minded, and sheltered from the real world while in the program, they never considered that they might have a few things wrong. That is part of the whole cult mentality. The cult has it right and the rest of the world is just plain wrong.
When you read Underwood's post it smacks of total arrogance. It is like he has things figured out and the rest of the world doesn't have a clue. The fact of the matter is the clueless ones are the Underwood's, Chun's, Libby's, & Barkers of the world.
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I must make a comment here. I spoke to John for about two hours the other day on the phone before he posted.
Like him, hate him, blame him or praise him...I don't care.
But know this...John told me in no uncertain terms that he knew many mistakes were made, that Art Barkers ego was way over the top, That the rules at the seed were way to harsh for young kids, That He understood how the seed could have been very traumatic for people like me, and that the entire seed staff focused on Art Barker instead of the Seed, and many other things that someone firmly entrenched in cultic mentality could never have said.
Also don't forget that the seed used him up and spit him out for the very same reason it did many of us, because we decided to assert some independent thinking.
I think his post was brave. I am not going to say I agree with everything he said, but I am glad he said it and wish he would say more. There are stil unanswered questions.
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I've been sitting here reading all the posts about John and his post, and all posts you started about John's post. Ya know, I've been shaking my head reading all the comments. Sure the "Seed sucked", yes it messed me up in some ways too. Yet, it got me off of all the dope I was doing. I too was full of fear, and would hide behind people so I wouldn't be "called on". I just feel a lot of people haven't let go of the past yet. I was in there for 10 1/2 months starting in July of 73. I didn't know how to function on the "outside" when I graduated. I know, because of my ego I messed up some of my newcomers. Who was I to "raise" young kids I didn't even know, lest know my own self.
I understand everyone had their own unigue experience in the Seed, yet why is there so much hostility, anger, and resentment still??? I let go a long time ago. All of my resentments weren't hurting anyone but myself. If Art has some guilt, fine. He messed up hundreds, if not thousands of young kids. Now almost 50 myself, and I got re-programmed with the help of a therapist, I don't live in the past anymore. The past is gone. I only have today, and I'm not guaranteed tomorrow. I appreciate this site, and I understand that people are still hurt by the whole experince of the Seed, but I don't feel hostility towards others who post is necessary. This is just MY opinion. I'm not dogging anyone nor this site. I think this site is vital, and I'm grateful someone told me about it. For now, I'm grateful to have survived the Seed, and life is good. Take care everyone.
Julie
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Well, Julie, I can only speak for myself. I'm nowhere near as angry and hostile as some people seem to think. I am, however, interested in bringing about open discussion about the methods employed by The Seed.
Even though your lilly white ass is now safe and sound and your shrink was able to help you mitigate some of the damage. Good to hear it! But there are several thousand kids right now undergoing physical and psyche abuse by exactly the methods use in The Seed. I think that if the scam were to become common knowledge, as the clams and Mormons are understood in Europe, then fewer people will fall for the scam.
I hope that, one day, local authorities will actually enforce laws against child abuse as practiced under the guise of TC style treatment. Right now, I'd be satisfied w/ just eliminating public funding and court coercion. One important aspect of carrying that off is dispelling the myth that the TC method is proven safe and effective and based in good science. It is not. As a publicly funded, law enforcement and court supported treatment for raging adolescance, it is largely based on Art's bullshit.
I think people should know that.
When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do.
William Blake
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BTW, if this is all so boring and unimportant, why invest the time to read it?
My initial response was to sue her for defamation of character, but then I realized that I had no character.
-- Charles Barkley, on hearing Tonya Harding proclaim herself "the Charles Barkley of figure skating"
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Lilly White??? I did not know that...
still pretty cute for 50 though... :razz:
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Ginger, can't you say a decent thing to someone without putting them down. Does every response need to contain a blast of hostility and anger. Geez. You were doing okay, patting her on the back until you punched her in the mouth.
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Forget about the kids who are being munched up right now? After all, we're all ok and that's all that matters?
Sorry if it offends you. But I find that sort of thinking to be shocking and contemptable.
BTW, what's so insulting about reference to one's lilly white ass? I have one too, ya know. I just don't think mine is any more important than anyone else's.
One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics.
--Stephen Hawking, English scientist
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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Mine is nicely tanned.
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On 2005-08-13 09:01:00, JaLong wrote:
"I've been sitting here reading all the posts about John and his post, and all posts you started about John's post. Ya know, I've been shaking my head reading all the comments. Sure the "Seed sucked", yes it messed me up in some ways too. Yet, it got me off of all the dope I was doing. I too was full of fear, and would hide behind people so I wouldn't be "called on". I just feel a lot of people haven't let go of the past yet. I was in there for 10 1/2 months starting in July of 73. I didn't know how to function on the "outside" when I graduated. I know, because of my ego I messed up some of my newcomers. Who was I to "raise" young kids I didn't even know, lest know my own self.
I understand everyone had their own unigue experience in the Seed, yet why is there so much hostility, anger, and resentment still??? I let go a long time ago. All of my resentments weren't hurting anyone but myself. If Art has some guilt, fine. He messed up hundreds, if not thousands of young kids. Now almost 50 myself, and I got re-programmed with the help of a therapist, I don't live in the past anymore. The past is gone. I only have today, and I'm not guaranteed tomorrow. I appreciate this site, and I understand that people are still hurt by the whole experince of the Seed, but I don't feel hostility towards others who post is necessary. This is just MY opinion. I'm not dogging anyone nor this site. I think this site is vital, and I'm grateful someone told me about it. For now, I'm grateful to have survived the Seed, and life is good. Take care everyone.
Julie"
Julie..great post!
I think that your approach, if it works for you, is perfect. It seems to be similar for me. I think hostility and blaming is counterproductive for me living a happy healthy life. Understanding is another thing.
Everyone here has such a varied experience. I find that fascinating.
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On 2005-08-13 16:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Mine is nicely tanned."
Mine Im sad to say...blindingly white.
:grin:
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Thats more than I wanted to know ::kma::
I like that littlemoon guy...
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Ginger, you may not think you are angry and hostile, yet your comment about my "lilly white ass" shows the opposite. This is the crap I was talking about. Having to be a smart butt. I choose not to curse, that's just me though. I know how many other kids are going through the same thing, if not worse then we had it in the Seed. Look at the kids in Irag, and everywhere else in the world??? But what can we do about it except write our Legislators, and Congressman. I'm fighting the Government right now here in FL., and I will continue to. Remember the Serenity Prayer. What we CANNOT CONTROL, what we CAN, and the wisdom to know the difference? Shortened form. It sure keeps me from getting angry about situations I cannot control. Just FYI. Take care of Ginger. OK?
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J, We're the grown ups now. It's our tax money at work, it's our legislature, it's our public school systems and our law enforcement. We can and must control this. These are our dogs now. No one else is gonna call them off.
If every cigarette you smoke takes seven minutes off your life, every game of Dungeons & Draggons you play delays the loss of your virginity by seven hours.
--Brian Warner - The Long Hard Road Out Of Hell
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Hello everybody !!!!!!!!!!
by DKM84 ยป 21 Aug 2002, 01:24
I remember the night john went off on you, scared the shit out of me. I kept thinking of that night for awhile and all I could remember was art saying we had a bigger tree then the white house, then I had a flash, then a flood like I was there, it was scarry.
I remember thinking, I'm glad that's not me.
I was an oldcomer then,
do you remember which room it was? I want to validate my memory, was it the big room, or was it the smaller one?
Interesting
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:jawdrop: