Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Teen Challenge => Topic started by: Firebird81 on May 02, 2007, 12:05:19 AM
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I am a graduate of the southern California Teen Challenge and a former staff member of Los Angeles Teen Challenge. I am also a graduate of the Teen Challenge Ministry Institute. Because of Teen Challenge I have been clean for 13 years.
Surely, as with any program there are those who have complaints, but in all of my years working with TC and my experiences with other programs, Teen Challenge is by and far a much better organization than any other around.
Your website seems to make some revelation that TC is a home mission of the Assemblies of God. That's some great investigative work there.....considering that Teen Challenge has ALWAYS prided itself in being so and the AG has always prided itself in having TC as part of it's denomination. There's no great mystery there, nor is there any great mystery that it is Pentecostal based.
Teen Challenge is structured as a strict, somewhat regimented program for a reason, the same reason that most other long term programs are, hardcore drug addicts need a structured environment to help them change their lives.
I will gladly answer any questions you have about TC, as I am proud to have been a part of it. Literally 10's of thousands of others like me are out there. You apparently have a very distorted view of this great organization.
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Still waiting for a response, Karly. You were very quick to set up a blog attacking the Teen Challenge program, but as I see from another former TC family member's post, you don't seem to be in a hurry to learn the truth. The truth is, there's nothing to expose here. You want to know what's taught? Daily schedule? program structure? fundraising? I have all the answers you need.
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I'll tell you what my agenda is for setting this up. I want to know what's going on in all these other Synanon based programs and I want anyone with an interest to be able to easily find out a broad range of views.
I have a theory. I think that, all of these programs we're talking about are remarkably similar in their core operations and methods. For instance, in Straight, we didn't speak in tongues. But you did have to "motivate" on cue to demonstrate without all the controls, both overtly mandated and compulsively enforced, the whole thing falls apart.
Can you articulate your agenda for posting here? Is it really that much different from my agenda in inviting you?
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Teen Challenge is not in any way shape or form a spinoff or based on the Synanon program. There is no coersion in Teen Challenge. People are not beaten, are not forced to disclose their deepest secrets to anyone. Counselors focus more on answering questions and helping guide students on the path of Christianity, although students with problems are certainly welcome to seek out their counselors and talk about it. People are not encouraged to no have i ever heard of anyone signing over their assets or property to Teen Challenge.
Teen Challenge is not communal. They do not want graduates of the program to remain in the program indefinitely. They want them to go and live their lives successfully and drug free in the real world. Teen Challenge does not use mind control techniques and does not abuse it's students. Think of Teen Challenge as a one year crash course in Christianity and you will have an idea of what the program is about.
Students attend classes on dealing with and overcoming anger, developing solid personal relationships with others and with God, on how to deal with abuses they may have suffered in life that influenced their life's decisions. They attent classes on practical ways to live their life according to Biblical principles. At NO time are Teen Challenge students forced to speak in tongues or any of that other pentecostal nonsense. Teen Challenge is far more subdued in those areas than some pentecostal churches are. While they Do believe in the baptism of the holy spirit, they do not force anyone to try it.
Teen Challenge is a 501c3 non-profit. They do not claim tax exemption because of being a religious organization. They had to prove that they met all of the requirements to receive charity status.
This program was started in 1958 in New York City after a small town pastor named David Wilkerson went there to reach 7 gangmembers on trial for a heinous crime. He failed to meet those kids, but quickly saw the need in the bedford-stuyvesant projects for help. He was laughed at and ridiculed but he established the first teen challenge and it has grown from there.
Every staff member of tc has been taught a Christianity based on love not wrath. Teen Challenge teaches it's staff that if you scare someone into the kingdom of God they can be scare out, but if you love them in, they will stay. Certainly there have been occasions where a staff member has acted wrong and if there is a pattern of problem, I can assure you that tc will not allow him to stay. All staff of every TC in the world go thru extensive background checks and are required to interview in front of a panel to determine that they are not a predator looking to harm kids in any way.
I appreciate you allowing me to voice this, and I hope I have or can shed some light on this program and what it is about to you. There is no comparison to be made with TC and Synanon or any other cultic group.
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It is just bizarre that you would try to float that obvious bullshit. Just look at what former inmates and their families are saying. Sure, vountary with the other option being contracting hep-c by ass rape in prison. Sure, love and kindness to those who pretend to speak in tongues. Condemnation and humiliation to the rest. That's what you call "love bombing".
Look darlin, most of what you "know" simply isn't true. Art Barker had a remarkably similar cover story. So did Joe Ricci. I wouldn't be surprised a bit if they all, along w/ Bob Mehan and a few others, turned out to be CIA assets.
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I've been thinking about this "false voluntary" problem - those ordered into TC if they want to avoid jail. To be honest, until all this came up, I didn't know such a situation existed.
Frankly, I am surprised that it does - b/c of TC's overtly Christian focus. I would think the offenders might be offered something like JADAC or the Morten Center (local drug rehab and treatment center) instead of jail; but I wouldn't think TC would be an option unless the offender requested it b/c of their Christian faith.
OK - clearly I am wrong - just looking at what others are saying about it. But I am surprised. Clearly there are people who felt they were forced into a situation where they and their faith were disrespected. This is not something that should be permitted to continue.
And yet. . .
To order it stopped might deprive men and woman of any choice, and send them to off to jail. Maybe some would prefer jail - but perhaps it is better to have the choice, if one wants it? I mean, its not as if the court is going to say - oh to bad - TC is no longer interested in allowing court ordered placement - so I guess we'll just cut you loose - go on an behave yourself now. Not gonna happen.
I will go on to say it grieves me to see, yet again, how a good work of God can be twisted by human greed and malice. No one in TC should ever feel despised or rejected or demeaned. If they do, then that facility is not projecting the love of Christ, as they were commissioned to do.
And BTW: Speaking in toungs is not proof of one's salvation or Born Again status. It is one of many gifts sometimes given to a believer. It is one gift, among many. Paul was clear it was not the only one, and that all were of value.
IMO - when you have a group of people putting to much focus on that one gift, you soon have a group of people no longer seeking after God - but seeking after a spiritual experience; and so they just might get a spiritual experience that is not God. I can't help but wonder if this is not what has happened to some of these TC chapters? If so, then Firebird - you really should be praying for revival in TC, instead of trying to explain to the fornits crowd what your all about.
That being said, I understand your desire to present the other side - but you should know, there is nothing you can say; no argument or defense you can give; that has not been heard time and again, and from programs and facilities with a proven history of horrible psychological and physical abuses. You might be telling the truth as you know it - but there is nothing you can say that will prove it - and especially not to a crowd that knows as much as this crowd knows, about abusive conditions in drug rehab facilities; and those who defend them.
Its true I thought the staff person I spoke with was kind, and seemd to be dealing with integrity. But I didn't get far enough to learn if I would have felt otherwise had we turned to TC for help.
I was upset to read accounts of families not being able to contact their loved ones (absolutely intolerable) and of false information given during enrollment - or incomplete information (another intolerable situation) and of being forced to pan handle. Tell me, Where did Jesus ever tell his followers to force / compell others to pan handle?? If you don't have enough given freely by those supporting your work, to expand or continue, then you cut back your work, and wait on God to give direction and provide. To those at TC, I'd say, If He isn't providing, maybe He is trying to tell you something.
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Well said,
And I'll say again I'm not out to get you or TC, but the same arguments come up from people defending truly bad places. It's ashame but the word of all facilities has been tainted by many bad ones and laws that allow them to exist. You have something to say do so, I'll drop in from time to time with questions.
Take a look at some of the other threads to see why many here have misgivings about these places. You'd be surprised at how dirty some programs(owners, staff, edcons) can be. If you don't know visit ISAC (http://http://isaccorp.org/) for more information on the issue, although you seem to know something(Synanon?)
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Once again, people are not ordered to Teen Challenge against their will. When someone gets court "ordered" it is because of one of two scenarios. Either they are facing jail and have heard about Teen Challenge and decide to try to get sent to the program instead of going to jail or they have been told they have to enter a program and they then try to convince the judge to consider TC instead of a county run facility.
Antigen's Ghost, have YOU actually read the those topics you asked me to read? I see one mother, who was convinced by Michael's website TC was bad. I see two girls who were in a teen center wher apparently something happened. Howeveer, one of those girls goes on in the thread to get into an argument with someone and then claim she is an oral surgeon making $500,000 a yr. and still uses drugs... that doesn't sound like someone who is a little full of it to you? Would an oral surgeon go on the internet and brag about being a current drug abuser, considering that same oral surgeon would lose the ability to handle any controlled substances? Would indeed be de-certified as a doctor? Would the medical board even certify a person who had a history of drug abuse to begin with????
Like I've been saying in the other thread---TC does not put a heavy focus on tongues, does not say tongues are required for salvation--that would be heresy. People are not ostracized, attacked or belittled at TC. They absolutely are not kept from their families. The first two weeks to 30 days are an isolation period from outside contact, just to get the person focused on the program. After that they can call or write every single day. Family can visit on an family day.
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Your website seems to make some revelation that TC is a home mission of the Assemblies of God. That's some great investigative work there.....considering that Teen Challenge has ALWAYS prided itself in being so and the AG has always prided itself in having TC as part of it's denomination. There's no great mystery there, nor is there any great mystery that it is Pentecostal based.
No great mystery there? Well, not even one Teen Challenge website that I've been to says anything on it about being affiliated with the Assemblies of God church, including the entire main website at http://http://teenchallengeusa.com/. Obviously, you were 'born' knowing this but I wasn't aware of this fact until I really started digging around over on the Assemblies of God's website at http://http://ag.org/top/ to find the Teen Challenge link! So, why are they hiding this 'fact' from the public anyway? That doesn't look like pride to me! That looks more like Teen Challenge is hiding the fact that they are affiliated with the Assemblies of God and visa versa!
Still waiting for a response, Karly. You were very quick to set up a blog attacking the Teen Challenge program, but as I see from another former TC family member's post, you don't seem to be in a hurry to learn the truth. The truth is, there's nothing to expose here.
There is nothing to expose? Evidently you will not face the facts or stop sticking up for this program for five-minutes to read and analyze any of the facts that I have posted on my web blog "Investigating Teen Challenge" at http://http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/. Obviously, you feel that you can butter up the Teen Challenge Program all you want to because that is what you were trained to do all those years! Evidently all that training has left you very close-minded and bitter! Do you even realize that a world outside of Teen Challenge exists???
Teen Challenge is not communal.
If you are sheltered away from the real world every single day for an entire year in Teen Challenge, while having your phone calls monitored and your mail read AND only allowed visits from people who are 'approved' by Teen Challenge then you cannot tell me that you are not in an a place that reeks of a communal nature!
And if you want to argue the fact that your mail isn't read, read this post that a Mpls. reverend has posted on http://http://www.topix.net/forum/city/minneapolis-mn/TN94VATH520HE9UQM/p7- Here is the post from 'rev' which was written on Monday Apr 30th, 2007:
"Number 3 in this gives consent for TC to go through mail - one of my people who went through the program did not receive the regular mailings I sent from our church and was told he didn't get any mail. It seems rather strange that a group that professes to be Christian would cut its clients off from the Christian support of their church. I had worked with this person and encouraged him in his entry to TC - why would mail from us (a simple newsletter or church bulletin) be considered so corruptive that he was not allowed to receive it? And a couple times they sent the mail back to church marked "Unknown here" on it when he had been there almost a year at that time. Did they not even know the names of their clients? Again, as I said before, I would not encourage anyone to enter the program from what I have seen as its "results" of treatment."
and now read the post directly below it from Cherokee Lady, which was written on Tuesday, May 1st, 2007:
"I moved my son out of TC Riverside into a secular rehab on Jan 2, 2007. I'm STILL getting some unopened letters back where they wrote "refused" on them.(they just now are sending them back I guess; ones I wrote over 6 mo. ago.) They completely withheld them, he never knew I had written him those letters. Mine also were letters of encouragement. I'll never donate another dime to this organization."
NOTE: 'Rev' is referring to Number 3 from Page 15 in this Teen Challenge application: http://http://www.saintlouistc.org/pdf/stltc-application.pdf
This is the excerpt from page 15 of the Saint Louis Teen Challenge Application:
TEEN CHALLENGE OF ST. LOUIS
2650 Appletree Acres * P.O. Box 213 * High Ridge, MO 63049 *
STUDENT AGREEMENT
1. I have read the rules and consent to abide by all of them, whether I agree with them or not.
2. I will dedicate myself to the discipleship program until it is recognized by the Teen Challenge staff that I qualify for completion. I realize this is only possible by submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and that I cannot do this in my own strength.
3. I release to Teen Challenge the right to search, read and withhold my mail in the manner explained in the rules.
4. I release to Teen Challenge the right to do a room search without warning.(Note: This is not done routinely, but only at times of definite cause.)
5. I release the right to Teen Challenge to make a thorough search of my person and belongings on the day of my admission.
6. I understand that withdrawal from drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes will be accomplished without medication (cold turkey), aided only by prayer. If this is not agreeable, withdrawal should be done prior to admission.
7. I understand that Teen Challenge will not be held responsible for any of my personal property left, lost, or stolen while I am in the Teen Challenge program. When leaving Teen Challenge, I understand that all my personal property must be taken with me.
8. I release Teen Challenge from all financial or legal responsibilities in case of accident, injury, illness or other misfortune.
9. I understand that I will not receive payment for the work I do while in the Teen Challenge program. I also understand that the purpose of this work is to aid in my character development.
10. I release the right to Teen Challenge to withhold any of my belongings that they deem necessary. Any items not specifically forbidden in the rules will be held for me until my departure.
11. I agree to submit to the authority of all staff members.
12. I understand that I have civil rights guaranteeing confidential communications by phone and mail, as well as exercising the religion of my choice. Teen Challenge is an evangelical Christian discipleship ministry for people with life controlling problems. As such, I realize and submit to the ministry’s expectations to attend Christian religious activities coordinated by the ministry. Further, for reasons of assisting me in dealing with my life controlling problem, I understand staff will regulate and monitor my communications for a period of time determined by staff. I voluntarily give my consent allowing staff to exercise these procedures. I fully understand my rights and what I am waiving.
13. I understand that the following grievance procedure shall be made available to me while participating in the Teen Challenge of St. Louis program: a) The right to seek remedy for any complaint; b) The right to submit a written complaint to my designated case manager; c) The right to grieve directly to any staff member; d) The right to direct access to the facility director and the government authority at some point in the grievance process; e) The right to submit a complaint in writing and to have assistance in writing the complaint if unable to read or write; f) The right for grievances to be resolved in a timely fashion generally within seven days.
__________
Applicant Signature Date
And while you are at it, take a good, long, hard look at #8!
8. I release Teen Challenge from all financial or legal responsibilities in case of accident, injury, illness or other misfortune.
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No great mystery there? Well, not even one Teen Challenge website that I've been to says anything on it about being affiliated with the Assemblies of God church, including the entire main website at http://http://teenchallengeusa.com/. Obviously, you were 'born' knowing this but I wasn't aware of this fact until I really started digging around over on the Assemblies of God's website at http://http://ag.org/top/ to find the Teen Challenge link! So, why are they hiding this 'fact' from the public anyway? That doesn't look like pride to me! That looks more like Teen Challenge is hiding the fact that they are affiliated with the Assemblies of God and visa versa!
KArly, are you really so dim that you think because it is not mentioned on a website that there is some conspiracy to hide the fact that Teen Challenge is part of a well-respected denomination of the Christian faith? I already explained why you wouldn't see that. It is because TC is non-denominational, even tho they are a home mission of the AG. They do not adhere the 16 articles of faith that the AG does. They adhere to 10. The other six are more denomination specific and may be a turnoff to Baptists or other denominations that would have a need for TC. Teen Challenge's turning point meetings, the outpatient program where most interviews for residential treatment are conducted are usually held at AG churches.
Evidently all that training has left you very close-minded and bitter! Do you even realize that a world outside of Teen Challenge exists???
YOU'RE calling me bitter? Wow, the irony of such a statement from you is apalling.
If you are sheltered away from the real world every single day for an entire year in Teen Challenge,
you are not. students receive weekend passes to go home every month once they are out of induction. Furthermore, most students will go on choir outings to churches all over their respective areas most Sundays. Many of those churches also have luncheons afterward where the students get to hang out with the congregants. Fundraising gets students out several days a week. Various outreaches get students out in the world, like the CURE Corps every March in L.A. which is an entire month of street evangelism and outreaches that TC students do participate in.
while having your phone calls monitored and your mail read AND only allowed visits from people who are 'approved' by Teen Challenge then you cannot tell me that you are not in an a place that reeks of a communal nature!
You're right, Karly! Teen Challenge should encourage students to call all their old buddies and talk about the good old days. They should allow students to communicate with old girlfriends they used to get high with, because these people won't try to convince them to come back out and play, will they? Did you ever stop to think that there is a reason for rules like that? Your definition of communal is one then that says residential treatment is wrong. What solution would you propose, Karly. You are obviously the expert.
Regarding Rev's post, it sounds like he was sending things that could have been mistaken for junk mail to me. I would also like to know what kind of church he pastors. Many groups call themselves Christians that mainstream churches consider cults--like the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses.
and now read the post directly below it from Cherokee Lady, which was written on Tuesday, May 1st, 2007:
This would make me ask questions as to why.if it's even true to begin with. There seems to be a coordinated effort I'm seeing here by an organization called Delancey Street. Their own website is very vague. I see nothing to say they are not a for-profit organization. They claim to receive no funds from taxpayers yet the next page says Diane Feinstein has set up a foundation to receive federal taxpayer funds for Delancey Street. And Some of the very complaints you have made about TC I see Delancey street's website does not address. And if they ARE for profit, then Diane Feinstein settingup a foundation for taxpayer funds would bring up ethics issues. Where is their daily schedule? What organizations are there who fund them, besides taxpayers. They claim $10 million annually in donations, yet I see no mention of non-profit status. What is the nature of the vocational training? Washing dishes in the restaurant? Working for a moving company? I want more information about this organization that has taken it upon itself to attack Teen Challenge so vociferously. I see this very website is part of the Delancey Street faithful. How much money does Mimi Silbert make? Is she earning it on the backs of those she claims to help? Can I call Delancey Street and request a full financial statement of their earnings and expenditures like I can BY LAW with Teen Challenge since it is a 501c3 non-profit.
Also, your blog is misleading concerning the Better Business Bureau's opinion of TC. You only showed the Springfield Offices, which do not fundraise and do not treat people. A thorough search of the BBB's website would have included individual TC's of which some actually are members of the BBB.
NOTE: 'Rev' is referring to Number 3 from Page 15 in this Teen Challenge application: http://http://www.saintlouistc.org/pdf/stltc-application.pdf
3. I release to Teen Challenge the right to search, read and withhold my mail in the manner explained in the rules.
Like I said in the other thread, TC does not read mail, except in very special circumstances. And the only mail that is supposed to be withheld is if it is from a questionable source. The student is supposed to be made aware of that and the reasons why it is being withheld and sent back. It is not a policy of TC to hide mail from students.
And while you are at it, take a good, long, hard look at #8!
8. I release Teen Challenge from all financial or legal responsibilities in case of accident, injury, illness or other misfortune.
That's pretty standard. When you got your job, if you do work, you likely signed a very similar release form. It holds no legal water. Students have sued TC in the past and have won. TC does not take that document to court to try to claim some legal standing. It is every businesse's nature to try to avoid being sued. Like I said--most employers do the exact same thing.
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Howeveer, one of those girls goes on in the thread to get into an argument with someone and then claim she is an oral surgeon making $500,000 a yr. and still uses drugs... that doesn't sound like someone who is a little full of it to you? Would an oral surgeon go on the internet and brag about being a current drug abuser, considering that same oral surgeon would lose the ability to handle any controlled substances? Would indeed be de-certified as a doctor? Would the medical board even certify a person who had a history of drug abuse to begin with????
No, that doesn't sound the least bit implausible. I used to answer phones for about 1200 doctors around so Florida. I knew of a top notch neural surgeon who was on a regular opiate maint program; (waaaaaay better pharmaceuticals than the methadone they force on people without such good connections! Ever hear of Oxycodone referred to as "hillbilly heroin"? It's use is rampant around here. Who do you think is diverting all that high quality shit? Patients? Nope, medical staff and pharmacists. It's dangerous shit, no doubt. I've seen plenty of people undo themselves with it. But not everybody. And the odds of maintaining a habit w/o letting it mess up your life are so much better for someone in the medical field because they have both a reliable connect for regent quality drugs and the knowledge to use them to the best effect.
You may think that you've made a compelling argument to dismiss everything this lady has to say. And all your chosen friends may even support you in this. But in the more commonly accepted reality, you come off just like the Drug Free America Foundation and their crack pot ideological brethren in NIDA and ONDCP. When their own publicly funded study showed that 75% of illigal drug users were gainfully employed, instead of conceding that these certain unpatentable drugs that they don't sell under the Merck label don't necessarily make people unemployable, they called for stepped up efforts to make these gainfully employed people unemployed and unemployable.
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Once AGAIN, that very thread has far more people saying they were helped by Teen Challenge and Michael himself is driving the majority of the negative feedback, along with a couple of you here. If tha tyoung lady suffered abuse at a TC as a minor then it is a horrible thing. But it is no way a part of the Teen Challenge program. There have been far more cases of public school teachers abusing students than any reports of problems at TC. In fact right now do a worldwide internet search and find me even 20 different cases of people who report havingbeenabused at TC. Find me 5 lawsuits ever filed against TC for abuse in it's 50 YEAR history. Find me any incident in the entire history of TC where the police have had to raid a facility or shut it down. If TC is so abusive where ar ethe TC survivor suppot groups? Why has this never been reported in the news in 50 YEARS!?! With tha tmany individual centers and the 10's of thousands of people who have passed thru TC's doors why do we not hear thousands of people complaining of abuse?
Michael's own website teenchallengeexposed actually praises most of the staff he mentions. He points out 3 staff he hated, two I know, one I don't but if he said someof things Michael claims , he sounds like an arrogant ass and it's good he's gone. Christie Luna is not Miss warm and fuzzy and is kind of strict for sure, but not abusive. Her husband Larry is an amazing man. He is wonderfully friendly, open, caring individual.
Paul Montoya---Paul Montoya is the big scary green eyed monster induction center interns like to frighten new students with. In truth, he serves a very important purpose and is actually exptremely committed to staff involvement in helping students restore their lives. He teaches first phase at the Christian Life School in Riverside. (the post induction center). Teen challenge tries to match students with what counsellors they think will work best with the student. Sometimes counsellors are changed, because a bad fit was made. Paul Montoya's caseload is usually the harder headed bunch who have a history of causing problems in the program. Paul's very job is to raise the standard on them to either force them to take it more seriously or convince them it's too hard. Paul's class is pretty strict, but fun. You walk in on the first day and he tells you he doesn't allow horseplay or goofing off in class and he introduces you to the acronym LTL--listen to learn and learn to listen.
He's been known to yell arrgghhh out the window in mock frustration, feign a heart attack if a student answers a question right and give out candy during verbal quizzes. It's easy for me to see why some people dislike him, but I will also stand my the statement that most of thos ewho don't are also the biggest troublemakers in the program.
Othe rthan that, Michael does little more than attack the intelligence of other staff and complain about fundraising---on fundraising I agree with him, as do many former and current staff. But options are limited
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KArly, are you really so dim that you think because it is not mentioned on a website that there is some conspiracy to hide the fact that Teen Challenge is part of a well-respected denomination of the Christian faith?
Nope! These days, if you can't find something about a primary affiliation that goes back a generation and a half between two very publicly known entities easily, it pretty much indicates focused effort at obfuscation.
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Antigen's Ghost wrote:
Nope! These days, if you can't find something about a primary affiliation that goes back a generation and a half between two very publicly known entities easily, it pretty much indicates focused effort at obfuscation.
Antigen's Ghost- That was very well said!
Firebird wrote: KArly, are you really so dim that you think because it is not mentioned on a website that there is some conspiracy to hide the fact that Teen Challenge is part of a well-respected denomination of the Christian faith?
And as for you Firebird- keep flinging your mean little words around! It's very becoming to both you and Teen Challenge!
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I have not been flinging mean little words around, Karly. My patience with you is wearing tho. Assemblies of God is not a religion. It is a denomination of the Christian religion. You should correct your blog to state that. Calling it a religion gives the false impression that it teaches a different faith than the Christian religion, which it does not.
As for TC hiding the fact that they are a home mission of AG, here is my challenge to you. Pick up the phone and call any TC center in the country. You pick. Say" I see that you claim to be a Chrisitan drug rehabilitation program. Can you tell me what church you are affiliated with?" Or ask any TC student you see fundraising or out doing other work. You will see exactly how much of a coverup there is.
When you are done with that, ask point blank " if a person is committed by the courts yet doesn't speak in tongues will he be removed from the program or threatened with jail".
If you are going to go to the lengths you have to level accusations and deflect people away from that program, I believe you owe it to those people whom you would like to influence to be absolutely sure you are reporting the truth.
And before you try to point me and others to the topix.net discussions again, I will point out here and now, that comments on your blog, on Michael's website and on those discussions, which portend to attack teen challenge are overwhelmingly posted by the same few people repeatedly. Michael, You, Brenda and a woman who calls herself Cherokee Lady, as well a couple of people who are members of this forum who rely on you and Michael for their information regarding TC. Once again, this is all you have of the thousands of people who have been thru TC. And every ove of those topix.net discussions have large number of TC graduates or advocates who dispute the 5 or 6 of you who make these claims. Once again, Karly, are you interested in truth adn spreading truth or are you just looking for attention or pushing an agenda?
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I'm sorry - but you obviously just cannot control your over-reactional nature long enough to read or think clearly!!! That's too bad for you. But oh well- at least there is a still whole world of people out there who can read and can think clearly!!!
G'Day!
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Nice try, Karly, really. Good strategy there. When presented with the truth and when challenged to actually back up your wild claims and research them yourself before irresponsibly posting them on a blog, you accuse me of doing exactly what you are doing.
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Yay!!! Some one from the Teen Challenge Staff! I can finally rip into you for the pain and suffering you caused a friend of mine!!!
To begin with, I had a friend, this friend was into certin alternative life styles. She was tricked into going to Teen Challenge. There her atlernative life style was challenged and she was forced to change, she was not given a choice, she was not allowed to agrue, and you changed who she was.
This is a major issue for me. Christianity is a choice. Programs like yours, and people like you are poor representaives of christ. You are heritics, people like you were once burned at the stake. Then again so was my friend.
The fact of the matter is that you don't represent Christ or God, or any type of Godly behavior. And if you decide to argue the point, I will rip your agrument to shreads, please try if you want. I was bored all day today. I could use a laugh.
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Yay!!! Some one from the Teen Challenge Staff! I can finally rip into you for the pain and suffering you caused a friend of mine!!!
oh please feel free.
To begin with, I had a friend, this friend was into certin alternative life styles. She was tricked into going to Teen Challenge. There her atlernative life style was challenged and she was forced to change, she was not given a choice, she was not allowed to agrue, and you changed who she was.
What she WAS allowed to do was leave a program she didn't agree with. Teen Challenge does not force people to change. If someone does not want to change they are asked to leave or leave themselves. Are you saying she was a lesbian? How was she changed? I am assuming that she might ahve come out confused about what felt natural to her vs. what Teen Challenge told her on the subject. I am truly sorry for her if that is the case. I wouldn't say I have seen many homosexuals in the men's program, but there have been a few and I would see them try to adhere to a non-homosexual lifestyle and their failure to do so resulted in some of the most scandalous moments in southern California teen Challenge. It's really kind of hard to put a gay man in a progam surrounded by nothing but other men, many of whom work out regularly and are in good shape and tell him that it's wrong for him to want them. his very nature goes against it.
This is a major issue for me. Christianity is a choice. Programs like yours, and people like you are poor representaives of christ. You are heritics, people like you were once burned at the stake. Then again so was my friend.
Yes, Christianity is a choice. Teen Challenge does not try to coerce ANYONE into Christianity. Applicants are told beforehand that this is a Christian progam. They are given a copy of the rules to read and sign the last page stating that they have read and agree to abide by those rules. This is before they are accepted. No one is tricked into going into TC blindly. As far as theology, TC abides by the exact same theology taught in every Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Presbyterian or any other mainstream denomination you can think of.
The fact of the matter is that you don't represent Christ or God, or any type of Godly behavior. And if you decide to argue the point, I will rip your agrument to shreads, please try if you want. I was bored all day today. I could use a laugh.
I supposed you hateful, spiteful, arrogant attitude represents godly behavior?
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What is wrong with being a homosexual?
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That's really not a compelling argument, Firebird. All these programs say the same thing and they're all lying.
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Ok, you say she was alowed to leave. Lets look at the options here to support that she was not really coerced. She was allowed to leave you say. Ok, so her parents were suposed to come down and get her? What if they wouldent? They were trying to force her into the program anyway. Was staff going to drive her home? Or was she just alowed to walk out? gee, a 16 to 17 year old girl in the middle of a major city, without any resorces, sounds safe dose it not? She was forced to go because of the options presented to her.
She was a homosexual, and a wiccian. A alternative religion if there ever was one.
Your Assemblies of God, your not main line, your pentacostal. Dont you dare compair Assemblies of God to Baptist of Lutheran. You believe in laying hands on healing, you believe in speaking in tongues, thats all herticial at worst, self deception at best. Those gifts ended at the end of the apostolic era, when there were no more apostles to continue the gift. While you do follow the main points theologically, largely your a bunch of snake handelers.
As for your last snide comment, I do believe God has killed people in both the old and new testaments, again and again, conistantly condeming those that do wrong. God gets angry, and I can to.
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///You believe in laying hands on healing, you believe in speaking in tongues, thats all herticial at worst, self deception at best. Those gifts ended at the end of the apostolic era, when there were no more apostles to continue the gift. While you do follow the main points theologically, largely your a bunch of snake handelers. ///
I would like to respectfully disagree overlord.
Those who say the gifts came to an end are only reaching for an excuse for their lack of them. Their faith is often luke warm, at best.
See Rev. 3 and the letter to Laodicea.
Those who say the gift's of the Holy Sprit only came to those whom the Apostles touched - the laying on of their hands - are just wrong. Read the book of Acts. Read Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. In I Corinthian's chapter 13 for example, you'll read about when the gifts shall end - and it has not yet come to pass for any of us
In Chapter 14 Paul outlines the various gifts - tell us to ask for them - even the best of them - He dose not say find an apostle and have him lay hands on you - He says if you want the Holy Sprit to provide you with His gifts - Ask.
In Acts you'll read how whole groups had the Sprit fall upon them and how gentiles were also blessed.
The gifts from the Holy Sprit are as Biblical as the message of Salvation. Would you say the fruits of the Sprit have ceased? I think not - so why would the gifts?
Still, I will acknowledge that there is a great deal of false teaching among some A of G and Pentecostal groups. I think they do sometimes approach heresy - sometimes they produce false prophets and teachers - as evil in their motives and teaching as any cult leader. I often fear that the sprit let loose upon their congregations is not at all Holy.
This is why I advise people not to assume any teacher or preacher is to be believed. Read the Book yourself, and take from it what understanding the Sprit provides. Ask for understanding before you open the Book - and know that each time you do this, your understanding will increase. In this way a believer can go from milk to meat.
A good Biblical teacher can be invaluable - but you should never assume any man has the whole truth; or is free from mistaken notions.
I will go on to add, if you can find a Messianic Jew who understands the Jewishness of the Biblical text - and who can explain the various interpretations of the Greek and Hebrew - you will have found someone worth listening to. Not that they too don't make mistakes - but they can help a great deal in understanding the deeper meanings of many passages.
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Those gifts ended at the end of the apostolic era
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Absolutely true. I Corinthians says that miracles will cease, tongues will cease, and knowledge will fade away. This does not mean knowledge per se, but the kind of knowledge that the men who wrote the Bible are said to have received from above. Joseph Smith claimed to have received this kind of knowledge, but that's another subject entirely.
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Joseph Smith claimed to have received this kind of knowledge, but that's another subject entirely.
2 Corinthians 11
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Galatians 1:8
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
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This is a great thread.
FUNDIE FIGHT!
Watching x-tians pussy slap each other over differences of their sects is fucking hilarious.
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Leviticus 20:9
For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall
be upon him.
Proverbs 22:15
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Proverbs 23:13
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Isaiah 45:7 (God speaking)
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
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To begin with, you can bite me TSW, say something productive before we decide to go Inqusition on your heathen ass... :o :lol:
Seriously though, say something that adds to the conversation.
Dr. Fucktard, you cant just pick stuff out of the bible, you have to check the context, whats going on in the chapter, and even the translation your using. You will notice Buzzkill picked out entire chapeters, and groups of verses.
And as for you Buzzkill. There is a differance between the fruits of the spirit and the aposolic gifts. The fruits of the spirit are evidence of the holy spirt in ones life. More ove all your referances are in the apostolic era, there are no referances to these gifts outside that era in scripture, no referances in the old testament, nor any referances after the letters. In Rev is mentions prophcey and visions and alike, but seriously, we are no where close to revalations, the world is not nearly that bad yet.
But accusing people who have no manafested gifts of having a luke warm faith is almost absurd, the gifts are not even a centeral tenant of the faith, if you believe in them or not.
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This is a great thread.
FUNDIE FIGHT!
Watching x-tians pussy slap each other over differences of their sects is fucking hilarious.
Given, given. But you must admit, to be perfectly fair, that none can match the ingenuity of the Irish. They share the same blood lines and heritage originating from a very small island. The share the same basic religion and language. And yet they've been able to sustain this silly argument for nearly 300 years.
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We're all going to rot in the ground until the sun blows up and burns the earth into dust anyway...
Why not drop this shit and go enjoy what we have? Its all we have and all there will ever be.
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///And as for you Buzzkill. There is a differance between the fruits of the spirit and the aposolic gifts.///
Of corse. I was just trying to point out that the work of the Holy Sprit in the believer's life is still manifested in the fruits of the Sprit; so why not also the gifts?
///The fruits of the spirit are evidence of the holy sprit in ones life. ///
Of corse - but also too the gifts.
Check out I Corinthian's chapter 12. You'll read Paul's explanation of the purpose for the gifts. Verses 8 through 11 list the various gifts. Also toward the end, there is a listing, and Paul explaining that no one person has them all, or should expect to.
In chapter 14, you can read Paul explain how the gifts should be used for the edification of the church - and that there should be order and harmony in the service - and not a lot of disorderly babbling so that unbelievers would think them all crazy.
As for when the gifts will come to an end; check out I Corinthian's Chapter 13, verse 8 through 13. I'd like to know what you make of them. We can discuss it in a PM or email if you'd prefer.
///More ove all your referances are in the apostolic era, there are no referances to these gifts outside that era in scripture, no referances in the old testament, nor any referances after the letters.///
Well sure they are all in the Apostolic era. When else would they have been written? Thats when the New Testament was written. I disagree that there is no mention in the Old Testament. Perhaps, you are forgetting the Prophets, (See II Peter Chapter 1 verses 19 through 21) and how often they were led by the Sprit; or Spoke a word that came to them from the Sprit; or the miracles they did - the greater wisdom given to them by the Sprit - The Old Testament is chock full of the workings of the Holy Sprit. They may not have used the word "gift" but they absolutely did have the Holy Sprit working through them in the same way as in the Church age.
What reference would there be after the letters? I'm not sure I understand your meaning here.
///In Rev is mentions prophcey and visions and alike, but seriously, we are no where close to revalations, the world is not nearly that bad yet. ///
Well, we could debate this too, if you'd like. Let me know if you want to discuss it further.
///But accusing people who have no manafested gifts of having a luke warm faith is almost absurd, the gifts are not even a centeral tenant of the faith, if you believe in them or not.///
If you'll take a look at that list of gifts - I think you'd agree that any believer who lacked having any of them would indeed be luke-warm at best. Salt with out flavor might be another way of putting it. Some of those gifts may seem rather mundane - but where would the Church be with out gifted teachers? Those gifted with administrative abilities? Those gifted with hospitality? If there were no churchmen with the gift of great Faith? All are important and all are among the gifts you may receive from the Holy Sprit.
As a believer, you have been given spiritual gifts - think about it - they are there. Think about how you can and should use what ever your gift is for the help of others - because they are all about helping others in some way or another.
But your right - this is not a Salvation issue. You need not believe that speaking in tongues (or any gift) is a true manifestation of the Holy Sprit to be saved. In some cases, I fear you'd be right. But it seems a shame to discount the work of the Holy Sprit in your life - or the lives of other believers. It is meant as a help to you - a comfort. Jesus spoke of the Comforter that would come to the church (see the gospel of John, chapter 14) and it seems a shame to say, no - I don't want it, or even believe in it.
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And the Irish had booze. These modern day Fundies only drink when they think no one is looking.