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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: phoenix on August 11, 2004, 01:12:00 PM

Title: I want to understand
Post by: phoenix on August 11, 2004, 01:12:00 PM
Erased[ This Message was edited by: phoenix on 2004-08-16 19:52 ]
Title: I want to understand
Post by: chrisjones on August 11, 2004, 02:47:00 PM
Has she told you anything?  You need to listen to her and not try to pry into her mind.  There are alot of issues behind each individual.  What happened to me might be totally different than what happened to her.

Let her tell you.  Just listen.

Be understanding...  This would not be the way to 'Get Close' to someone.

Like I said Listen.  You might never find out the whole story.

To this day my husband just knows that I was in treatment for a long time.  It will take time becuase I know he would not understand if I start telling him my story.
Title: I want to understand
Post by: kpickle39 on August 11, 2004, 03:10:00 PM
Hello back at you Pheonix-

First, I would like to thank you for your interest in knowing more about your friend.   Straightling folks are definately a unique breed.  Second, I can not tell you exactly what your went thru individually, but I do know what your friend experienced collectively by just being incarcerated on a daily basis as a child.    

Your friend was torn up emotionally.  She was told that she was worthless and a slut, that unless she finished the program, her family and straightling friends would have nothing to do with her.  She was told she was worthless, untrustworthy, that she was a piece of shit as a person and was fundementally flawed.

She was told that she had a "disease" called being an addict. She was told that she would be either dead, insane or in jail if she did not comply and finish the program.   They took away her individuality and made her part of the "group".  

I'm not sure when she was in, but at various times and places she may have had a restricted diet.  These diets consisted of most likely peanut butter and bread.  When I was in straight St. Pete, we were served food that was gleaned from dumpsters, ie t hrow away bread and doughnuts.  Her liquid intake was regularly restricted.   We were allowed 2 dixie riddle cups a day of unsweetened koolaid, w/no sweetner (maybe 8 ounces of liquid).  The only time I could really hydrate myself was in the shower.   She kept long hours.  Our day lasted anywhere from 15 to 20+ hours a day.  She heard repition and mantra.  She may have been beaten for non-compliance.   Crapping and peeing were regulated.  She was made to sit in uncomfortable positions for long periods of time.
She was probably scared her entire time there.  To move ahead, one must make others look bad.

Think abu grey (sp)prison.   Think of massive child abuse on a scale that rivals anything seen in the western world.    

She probably dreams about straight and has pstd.  I dreamt about straight and still do for almost 25 years now.


My wife (bless her heart) married me, a straight survivor.   She is the one that saved my life.  I am ok now (more or less).  Thanks to my family, esp my wife, friends and lots of hard work and prayer on my part.   Straight will probably have long-lasting, maybe lifetime impact.  But she can become a survivor.   Be her friend; she most likely harbors lots of anger.  If it comes out, don't run away.  We have been rejected enough in our life.    I do not have a therapist.  I do not trust them.  I split the word up into two words... THE RAPIST.  We all have had about all the thereapy we can handle.   Encourage her.  Show her unconditional friendship and love.  She will be ok; be her friend.

Glad you found fornits.   It has helped me lots.


Sincerely,

Mike Sherman, Straight Survivor 1978 - 1980
http://www.safetyintl.org (http://www.safetyintl.org)[ This Message was edited by: kpickle39 on 2004-08-11 12:25 ]
Title: I want to understand
Post by: wanderer on August 11, 2004, 03:38:00 PM
First I want to say I don't think anyone without prior knowledge of Straight has ever taken me seriously enough to do research. Usually I don't discuss it, but when I do the usual reaction is "Wow that must have sucked" followed by an uncomfortable silence meaning lets change the subject. Or they just think I must have deserved it. So my hat's off to you.

Second we all had such varied experiences and reactions to those experiences that I can't give clarity to her situation. An example is many people here have nightmares and PTSD. I have never had either. I have my personal issues to deal with of course. Nobody could block out all the messages they force fed down your throat all day for that length of time. However I think I did a damn good job (for a 16 yr old) when I left to leave alot of that bullshit there in the building. I remember thinking I will never again take fresh air and car rides with the windows open in the sun with the music blaring for granted again. (Keep reading the posts and you will understand why those 2 things are significant to most of us.)

What else could I say: stic: around a couple of days...and then you can listen to your friend with a new understanding probably.
Title: I want to understand
Post by: phoenix on August 11, 2004, 03:40:00 PM
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Title: I want to understand
Post by: phoenix on August 11, 2004, 04:08:00 PM
Erased...[ This Message was edited by: phoenix on 2004-08-16 19:53 ]
Title: I want to understand
Post by: Antigen on August 11, 2004, 04:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-11 12:40:00, phoenix wrote:

Hurry up and wait right?


Yeah, to some extent, that's probably the ticket.

Chris gave you some good advice, too.

One of the most hurtful lies propagated by the Program is that we all can be diagnosed, labeled, cataloged according to some outside expert's dictates. It's just so much simpler to do the worksheet from Reader's Digest or whatever than to actually get to know someone.

I don't know how I'd feel about my husband looking into the Program. There wasn't an internet back then (or, at least, not as it is today) so it's hard for me to say how I would have felt about it.

One thing, though, and you probably already know this one. After all these years, it wasn't all pathology and paranoia. A lot of my fears, which seemed totally unreasonable to most people at the time, turned out to be very well founded.

...it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,
tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds..

--Samuel Adams

Title: I want to understand
Post by: Anonymous on August 11, 2004, 04:33:00 PM
Quote
Where they need a voice, I will stand up and shout for them.

"


Thank you - we need all the voices we can get.

kpickle39
Title: I want to understand
Post by: Anonymous on August 11, 2004, 04:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-11 13:22:00, Antigen wrote:


I don't know how I'd feel about my husband looking into the Program. There wasn't an internet back then (or, at least, not as it is today) so it's hard for me to say how I would have felt about it.


Is that a caution that maybe I shouldnt be looking into this?
Title: I want to understand
Post by: ehm on August 11, 2004, 04:54:00 PM
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=29&15 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=29&15)

"The Program" and two years will get you a vastly improved kid in *EXACTLY* the same way that "The Program" and four bucks will get you a cup of espresso at Starbucks.

Timoclea

Title: I want to understand
Post by: Antigen on August 11, 2004, 04:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-11 13:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2004-08-11 13:22:00, Antigen wrote:



I don't know how I'd feel about my husband looking into the Program. There wasn't an internet back then (or, at least, not as it is today) so it's hard for me to say how I would have felt about it.




Is that a caution that maybe I shouldnt be looking into this?  "


No, just something to think about. Tread lightly, maybe?

The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled.
-- Plutarch

Title: I want to understand
Post by: phoenix on August 11, 2004, 05:31:00 PM
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Title: I want to understand
Post by: phoenix on August 11, 2004, 05:41:00 PM
Erased...[ This Message was edited by: phoenix on 2004-08-16 19:54 ]
Title: I want to understand
Post by: Anonymous on August 11, 2004, 07:59:00 PM
In all sincerity, this is one of the most heartwarming threads I've read... just people helping people. Thank you.

Shanlea
Title: I want to understand
Post by: phoenix on August 12, 2004, 02:07:00 AM
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Title: I want to understand
Post by: Scarstruck on August 12, 2004, 10:09:00 AM
Tell you what ...lay off the psycho analytical aspect..
 Be understanding...let her come to you if she wants to talk about it.
 Dont treat her like ..like the way you treat a handicapped person or someone thats dying..
 Im sure we all feel like nutty wierdos as is...Iknow I dont need any help with that.

 Wait ...Me? giving relationship advice? thats funny.
 Haha I can barely leagve my bedroom as is...cant even get a bag of weed or carton of smokes without having anxiety attacks..
Title: I want to understand
Post by: Anonymous on August 12, 2004, 10:13:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-08-12 07:09:00, Scarstruck wrote:

"Tell you what ...lay off the psycho analytical aspect..

 Be understanding...let her come to you if she wants to talk about it..cant even get a bag of weed or carton of smokes without having anxiety attacks..
"


That's a very good point...(the analytical stuff)...  Consider it dropped...

I've heard the term "anxiety attacks"....  Not to sound dumb, but what are they?
Title: I want to understand
Post by: future.air on August 12, 2004, 11:46:00 AM
Hi.
I wrote the coping mechanisms post.  

I am a survivor and my boyfriend is struggling to understand.   I don't consider it to be psychobabble.

For so long the trauma was reacting instead of me.  I am attempting to understand PTSD and all of its specific ramifications.  With each person, I'm sure the pain is expressed differently.

My boyfriend gets scared of my anger too and he, at times, has left with no explanation.  Leaving, with no exchange of safe affection, COMPLETELY triggers the feeling of abandonment I felt when my parents dropped me off in that abusive hellhole.  

Saying,  "I love you I will be back in an hour or I will call you tomorrow at 10am I want to talk to you when we are both calm enough to not be abusive, usually works".

If you can hug her when she's freaking out that is like heaven for me.  In Straight, we were unable to express anger or fear. Usually only shame, regret and remorse for the wrongs we did in the past.  Raps were focused on the past and hopes of the future.

I KNOW, this requires a hell of a lot of strength when the other person is having an irrational and INTENSE reaction that goes way beyond the present and initial trigger.  It is important to remember it is not about you.  My boyfriend has a tendency to take it personally.  It triggers his feelings of inadequacy and then we get trapped in a vicious circle.

In my experience, identifying the issues is helping!  Differentiating the past from the present is key to my personal recovery as well as the potential success of my relationship.
I support you for working so hard to know the woman you love.  That is admirable.   Please continue posting.  It helps me to hear the other side.  

All the best,
Elizabeth
Title: I want to understand
Post by: phoenix on August 12, 2004, 12:18:00 PM
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Title: I want to understand
Post by: ehm on August 12, 2004, 01:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-12 07:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

I've heard the term "anxiety attacks"....  Not to sound dumb, but what are they?"


http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/panic.html (http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/panic.html)

http://www.anxietypanic.com/ (http://www.anxietypanic.com/)

Seemingly uncontrollable bouts of panic and fear that effect you both physically and emotionally.

Is she in therapy?

To the extent that a society limits its government to policing functions which curb the individuals who engage in aggressive and criminal actions, and conducts its economic affairs on the basis of free and willing exchange, to that extent domestic peace prevails. When a society departs from this norm, its governing class begins, in effect, to make war upon the rest of the nation. A situation is created in which everyone is victimized by everyone else under the fiction of each living at the expense of all.

--Edmund A. Opitz

Title: I want to understand
Post by: webcrawler on August 12, 2004, 02:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-08-12 09:18:00, phoenix wrote:

"
Quote

On 2004-08-12 08:46:00, future.air wrote:



If you can hug her when she's freaking out that is like heaven for me.  In Straight, we were unable to express anger or fear. Usually only shame, regret and remorse for the wrongs we did in the past.  Raps were focused on the past and hopes of the future.





I KNOW, this requires a hell of a lot of strength when the other person is having an irrational and INTENSE reaction that goes way beyond the present and initial trigger.  It is important to remember it is not about you.  My boyfriend has a tendency to take it personally.  It triggers his feelings of inadequacy and then we get trapped in a vicious circle.









Thanks Elizabeth!



On my MSN right now, my line is "Sometimes doing nothing is harder than doing something difficult"...   I'm finding it really difficult to not try and "ride in like the white knight".. But its occured to me that just as I am having to wrestle that feeling internally right now, survivors must have similar battles ALL THE TIME.



Now that I know "whats going on" when she gets upset, I think I will be much better able to cope.  I wish I had the presence of mind to tell her those words you mentioned when I would leave..  But I wouldnt..  Instead I would, like your man, leave without a word, or worse, actually say something like "Forget this.. I dont want this"... Its amazing in retrospect that she doesnt hate me.... and no wonder its difficult for her to "come back"...



You right too, it brings up feelings of inadequacy in the partner.. I certainly felt it...  It goes through your head "I guess I'm not the one she wants...  I mean look, I cant make her happy.. it must be me.. she must want to move on but doesnt know how to tell me..  I'll make it easy and start a fight"....  



You want to know the really ironic thing? When we would fight, I wanted reassurance too.. I would have loved to have been able to walk up to her, past the raised voices and the anger, and just hugged her...



I pray every night for her happiness.. and I pray that she can feel she can trust me..



She may decide that we can only ever be friends from now on. That will really hurt.. She'll be "the one that got away".. I truly believe we are soul mates.  But if friendship is all she can share with me, I will be the best friend she has.  Everything all of you are sharing is invaluable.



Its kind of like having digital cable and a normal TV... plug the two into each other, and despite both the cable co. and the TV doing their best - the picture remains static. A digital descrambler is needed..  I could be wrong here, but I think I really needed to know all this so I could properly understand what she was trying SO HARD to say to me.  It pains me to think of the effort she put into trying to make me understand, only to be left feeling abandoned and rejected (her worst fear no doubt).  



Do any of you have any questions for me? (It just occured to me that I'm the one asking all the questions here)...



"







I think you should just hug her. A lot of times I'm pretty mean myself to people I care about and a hug can change things. Sounds corny I know. You sound like a good guy. Hell, if she doesn't marry you there are a whole lot of other good women that can use a good man by their side.
Title: I want to understand
Post by: future.air on August 12, 2004, 02:24:00 PM
hi.
No, I don't have any questions right now.  But I'll let you know if I do.

I enjoyed the cable analogy. There has been static in my life for a long time.  I didn't want to subscribe to the channels that brought back pictures of the years in lock-up.
I'm not sure if she knows about this site.  But a couple months ago when I found this site it was a big shock.
It took me another couple months to have the courage to start posting.

Thanks for saying during a fight you need reassurance too.  The few times during heated moments I've attempted to understand his fears  it  really helps.  
I need to get better about assuring him that it's not his fault and keeping the focus on the initial anger -usually rooted in the past.

You obviously love her very much.   Everything you are doing will most certainly let her know you are dedicated.
Title: I want to understand
Post by: future.air on August 12, 2004, 02:31:00 PM
Quote

I think you should just hug her. A lot of times I'm pretty mean myself to people I care about and a hug can change things.



 From this ::argue::  to this    ::kiss::

Very true.  I believe body language and energy sometimes expresses more than words.
Title: I want to understand
Post by: phoenix on August 12, 2004, 02:51:00 PM
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Title: I want to understand
Post by: phoenix on August 13, 2004, 11:10:00 PM
Someone (who's handle I forget) made a good point...  So I'm clearing all my comments out...

I leave this site for her support..
Title: I want to understand
Post by: webcrawler on August 14, 2004, 06:13:00 AM
Sounds like it's just time to move on from each other once and for all. You can't make anyone have feelings they don't have. Yeah, you came here, but we don't know her name. I think you respected her enough to not put her name out there.
Title: I want to understand
Post by: ehm on August 15, 2004, 12:28:00 AM
Getting this personal about a person who is a survivor, who knows about this site, but is too shy/fearful to post here would be a big warning flag to tread softly. You seemed to have jumped into this site head first, but where does that leave her comfort zone with ever coming here to post on her own? I mean, you've already revealed so much, I can understand how she would feel like her privacy has been invaded. My advice to you would be to edit all your posts about her and apologize to her for unintentionally breaking her trust.

Then, since she's not your girlfriend anymore, stop posting here. Let this be her turf, not your relationship advice chat network. I'm sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, but have some consideration for how deep the waters of this situation goes. That's the main reason I tried to direct you to survivors of spouses. This is for her, that is for you. She hasn't even had a chance to post, and it's already been tainted for her.

I really think it would be best to take a big step back.

When the government's boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence.
-- Gary Lloyd

Title: I want to understand
Post by: phoenix on August 16, 2004, 10:56:00 PM
Thanks Lezli,

Its done...
Title: I want to understand
Post by: Anonymous on April 08, 2005, 11:29:00 AM
I guess they broke up and now somebody is bitter? :roll:

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#93877 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9045&forum=9&start=20#93877)
Title: I want to understand
Post by: seamus on April 08, 2005, 01:34:00 PM
[ This Message was edited by: seamus on 2005-04-08 10:37 ]
Title: I want to understand
Post by: Anonymous on April 08, 2005, 11:25:00 PM
Mike Sherman aka KPICKLE promised he would stop posting his lies here.
Mike Sherman is a child abuser and caused the death of a child,and never paid for the crime.Please kill yourself kpickle or I will have to kill your whour wife before your very eyes.
Mike Sherman is a piece of dog shit and does not deserve to breath our fresh air!
Dont ever give kpickle your personal information or you will be sorry.
Title: I want to understand
Post by: ` on April 09, 2005, 12:29:00 AM
Animals, your death threats are totally unacceptable. kpickle has my personal information and would never betray me. YOU are the one who is untrustworthy.

by the way, I know your real name but I am NOT giving it out here. quit being so damn mean to everyone. apologize to kpickle and take back what you said about his wife.

do you need assistance getting mental health care? believe it or not, in spite of all your antics, some people see that you are suffering and only wish that you would get whatever help it is you need to get better.

for real, animals, no one here is out to get you, no one here is your enemy.