Fornits
General Interest => Feed Your Head => Topic started by: Oscar on December 20, 2010, 12:31:33 AM
-
Our researchers have noticed that a number of former NATSAP members have dropped out of the organization. They are mentioned in various documents but they don't figure when you search the database. Not that it is a problem for our research, but it is an interesting trend.
Are anyone aware of if there is some kind of split going on inside this organization?
-
This could possibly be because NATSAP was dreamed up, founded and funded by Len Buccellato of HLA/Ridge Creek "School" and he's getting a lot of bad publicity again for incidents at the private detention center RCS and that is transferring onto NATSAP. Those programs may want to try to disassociate themselves from Len's problems and bad press.
-
This could possibly be because NATSAP was dreamed up, founded and funded by Len Buccellato of HLA/Ridge Creek "School" and he's getting a lot of bad publicity again for incidents at the private detention center RCS and that is transferring onto NATSAP. Those programs may want to try to disassociate themselves from Len's problems and bad press.
In all fairness to the readers, the readers need to understand that you hold this heavily biased opinion because you were fired by Len Buccellato for not revealing that you had a felony record for selling drugs to kids. You lied to the man and you got caught. This did not sit well with you and now you spend your days and nights trying to make this man and the school look bad.
...
-
Well, you have a very vivid imagination, but that has nothing to do with "NATSAP members dropping out" does it?
I think they are dropping out because of some transference of Len's bad publicity onto NATSAP since he created NATSAP.
-
Well, you have a very vivid imagination, but that has nothing to do with "NATSAP members dropping out" does it?
I think they are dropping out because of some transference of Len's bad publicity onto NATSAP since he created NATSAP.
Unless you have a link of some type to support what you are saying then the readers will probably wonder why you are saying it. Dont you think? I was just providing them with the background necessary to make an informed assessment on your baseless statement and why you would make it. We agreed in the past that the readers have a right to know the truth and it should not be considered an attack. Just to be clear and fair.
As far as members dropping out of NATSAP I find it an interesting trend. I would like to look at it further to try to determine the root cause of the fluctuation.
...
-
The only issue is that you aren't being truthful. You are in process of derailing this thread because your ties to Aspen and NATSAP have been thoroughly discussed here and you'd rather not have people know these items. Sadly, you resort to making up stories to support your agenda.
Remember this one?
I fabricated a son
Where you admitted you even made up your family? I don't think that people are going to lend your foolish fairytales much credit.
So...NATSAP is losing members, therefore NATSAP is losing revenue in the form of membership dues and to me it looks like that is happening because of the bad press being run on NATSAP's founder.
-
The only issue is that you aren't being truthful. You are in process of derailing this thread because your ties to Aspen and NATSAP have been thoroughly discussed here and you'd rather not have people know these items. Sadly, you resort to making up stories to support your agenda.
Remember this one?
I fabricated a son
Where you admitted you even made up your family? I don't think that people are going to lend your foolish fairytales much credit.
So...NATSAP is losing members, therefore NATSAP is losing revenue in the form of membership dues and to me it looks like that is happening because of the bad press being run on NATSAP's founder.
Exactly, DJ so comments like:
In all fairness to the readers, the readers need to understand that you hold this heavily biased opinion because you were fired by Len Buccellato for not revealing that you had a felony record for selling drugs to kids. You lied to the man and you got caught. This did not sit well with you and now you spend your days and nights trying to make this man and the school look bad.
You and I do not consider these comments attacks. Its nice we can find common ground.
...
-
With the caveat that I quoted you admitting you made up your family, etc. You said it and I just quoted it. What you said about me is false, but what I said about you was your own words. Just to be clear.
So now that the derailing issue is settled maybe Whooter could try to add some value to the discussion by offering his reasons why his professional trade group is shrinking? I'd be interested in hearing from a NATSAP/program insider's perspective which Whooter can offer.
-
With the caveat that I quoted you admitting you made up your family, etc. You said it and I just quoted it. What you said about me is false, but what I said about you was your own words. Just to be clear.
So you admit that you made that quote up and lied. What I supplied was information on why you try to make RCS and the people that run the school look bad. Its important that the people understand the reasoning behind your comments in my opinion.
Getting back to NATSAP, members may feel that NATSAP is not adding any value to their business or is supporting programs which they feel are not up to their same standards. Maybe the ones dropping out received notice from NATSAP that they are not on a favorable list with them.
...
-
No, of course I didn't make it up. Not only did I not make it up, you admitted you did it, so we need not rehash that here. You "fabricated a son" and that's a shame you did that and got exposed for it, but the more immediate tie you have to this thread is that you are an admitted Aspen Ed fiduciary, so we need to be clear that your people have a lot of dollars tied up in NATSAP when we read your responses.
-
No, of course I didn't make it up. Not only did I not make it up, you admitted you did it, so we need not rehash that here. You "fabricated a son" and that's a shame you did that and got exposed for it, but the more immediate tie you have to this thread is that you are an admitted Aspen Ed fiduciary, so we need to be clear that your people have a lot of dollars tied up in NATSAP when we read your responses.
You can say I was part of 911 if you like, but the readers are still entitled to know that you once worked for HLA and you were fired because you did not disclose that you had a felony record for selling drugs.
Here you are admitting you lied to your employer and was fired. You were giving advice to other people to never tell the truth on your application.
I personally would advise never to tell. Nothing good can come from it. Only REAL possibility is getting terminated on the spot.
You were fired from HLA because you were selling drugs.
I ended up getting hit with 1-3 in NYS system for my first and only pop - no sale involved. However, I was CHARGED with A Class felony which carries 25-life in NY.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=103722#p103722)
You also did time for other offenses. Sometimes people hold grudges against the places that fire them or cause them to be placed in jail. When you come out and twist the truth and generate lies about HLA I think it is important that the readers understand why you are doing this. I dont think you would disagree with this.
...
-
Nutsac and member dropping out..?
What?
:D
-
Gee, Whooter, you are really convincing. Lols. I'm sorry you spend your days and nights here making up phony stories about everyine else and vomiting all of your inadequacies on the rest of us. I wish you wouldn't, but you do. Get it all out of your system, big guy. It will all be over before you know it, so enjoy yourself while you can. My username has only been registered for a couple of months, so you're not fooling anyone by pointing to some posts from five years ago by someone called "Troll Control." You'll have to do better than that, Whooter. Once people see your links point to other posters they will quickly stop clicking if they haven't already.
Here are some more Troll Control posts. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=30975#p374568) Whooter has quite a relationship with this fellow!
I was actually a very valued employee at HLA and they even paid for most of my graduate degree. It was when I started raising concerns about child safety and welfare and they did not address my concerns that I was compelled to quit and turn in documents to the authorities. As you know, many of those documents were the basis for the successful lawsuit against HLA that put it out of business and really hurt your group, NATSAP, because HLA was always held out as the "flagship program" of NATSAP. That blew up in your faces and I see why you would be angry at me and other posters like RobertBruce, Deborah and Jill Ryan who expose the fraud, neglect and abuse of programs under your organization's umbrella (NATSAP).
I can take it and it doesn't bother me, but it does not compensate for NATSAP showing the signs of going under. Aspen and NATSAP are both under extreme financial distress and the only commonality related to Fornits is that you are a fiduciary to these groups. I guess not such a good one though, huh? ; )
-
Nutsac and member dropping out..?
What?
:D
:rofl:
-
I was actually a very valued employee at HLA
"WAS" is the key word. When they found out you lied about your felony record they didnt value you you too much as an employee and terminated you on the spot (your own words), this is when you started your campaign against HLA and RSC. The readers know that if you left on a friendly bases you would not have this passion to lie about the school. Would you? lol. Plus we have the links which show you were fired and had a hidden felony record.
....but it does not compensate for NATSAP showing the signs of going under. Aspen and NATSAP are both under extreme financial distress and the only commonality related to Fornits is that you are a fiduciary to these groups. I guess not such a good one though, huh? ; )
It would be interesting to see the fluctuation and what is causing it. I dont think we have any information right now regarding that.
Here is their current list of programs:
Link (http://http://www.natsap.org/search.asp)
...
-
No, I never said anything like that.
But we do agree NATSAP and Aspen are struggling and looking like they will go under given the weight of the bad press from HLA/RCS and all those DHS reports with rapes and beatings at RCS in them.
-
Our researchers have noticed that a number of former NATSAP members have dropped out of the organization. They are mentioned in various documents but they don't figure when you search the database. Not that it is a problem for our research, but it is an interesting trend.
Are anyone aware of if there is some kind of split going on inside this organization?
Which NATSAP members have dropped out?
Might this have anything to do with that Small Boarding School Association (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31491) you posted about recently, Oscar? Although this latter organization would appear to be, for the most part, focused on what could legitimately be called "regular" small boarding schools, there are a fair number of behavior modification programs included in their membership list as well...
Are these places trying to muddy the picture as to what really goes on in programs?
-
Our researchers have noticed that a number of former NATSAP members have dropped out of the organization. They are mentioned in various documents but they don't figure when you search the database. Not that it is a problem for our research, but it is an interesting trend.
Are anyone aware of if there is some kind of split going on inside this organization?
Which NATSAP members have dropped out?
Might this have anything to do with that Small Boarding School Association (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31491) you posted about recently, Oscar? Although this latter organization would appear to be, for the most part, focused on what could legitimately be called "regular" small boarding schools, there were a fair number of behavior modification programs listed on there as well...
Are these places trying to muddy the picture as to what really goes on in programs?
I think it would be good to give NATSAP some competition. This may cause these organizations to start stepping up end enforcing some standards for their members to meet, even if they are minimal to start with. Just to write a check to be a member is useless in my opinion.
...
-
So NATSAP is useless then. They don't enforce any standards. They're just a trade group.
Our researchers have noticed that a number of former NATSAP members have dropped out of the organization. They are mentioned in various documents but they don't figure when you search the database. Not that it is a problem for our research, but it is an interesting trend.
Are anyone aware of if there is some kind of split going on inside this organization?
Which NATSAP members have dropped out?
Might this have anything to do with that Small Boarding School Association (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31491) you posted about recently, Oscar? Although this latter organization would appear to be, for the most part, focused on what could legitimately be called "regular" small boarding schools, there were a fair number of behavior modification programs listed on there as well...
Are these places trying to muddy the picture as to what really goes on in programs?
I think it would be good to give NATSAP some competition. This may cause these organizations to start stepping up end enforcing some standards for their members to meet, even if they are minimal to start with. Just to write a check to be a member is useless in my opinion.
...
-
So NATSAP is useless then. They don't enforce any standards. They're just a trade group.
I would support them as an association much more so if they had some stricter standards and enforced them, but they dont appear to do that. The requirements for membership are wide open and they dont seem to terminate memberships for falling below standards.
...
-
Exactly, that's why Aspen is still a member after killing, abusing and neglecting kids and getting their facilities shut down for it. They're members in good standing with NATSAP which shows NATSAP is bullshit and doesn't care that its members abuse and even kill kids.
-
Exactly, that's why Aspen is still a member after killing, abusing and neglecting kids and getting their facilities shut down for it. They're members in good standing with NATSAP which shows NATSAP is bullshit and doesn't care that its members abuse and even kill kids.
Ha,Ha,Ha so NATSAP members kill people? What an angry person you are DJ. I feel bad for you in a way, but your comments are classic. You are out to discredit even Wikipedia today!
...
-
The programs that are members of NATSAP kill people and get shut down for it.
You might be able to find evidence to the contrary here (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use).
-
No, NATSAP doesn't kill people. The programs that are members of NATSAP kill people and get shut down for it.
Ha,Ha,Ha The Programs kill people lol. You have tried to discredit me, wikipedia, RCS, HLA, NATSAP, "All Programs" just because they disagreed with your argument. This is just today!!
The New York Times says that Obama won the Presidential Election!
DJ: "That paper is not credible, their readers kill people" lol
Now this is entertainment.
Trying to discredit Wikipedia is still in the lead for best post of the day, though, but the others were good.
...
-
So now Whooter is claiming no kids were ever killed in any NATSAP programs. Wow. Big statement there. Big false statement, but hey, that's what Whooter is all about.
The programs that are members of NATSAP kill people and get shut down for it.
You might be able to find evidence to the contrary here (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use).
-
I forgot to add "Georgia ORS" to the DJ's discredit list for today!
No, NATSAP doesn't kill people. The programs that are members of NATSAP kill people and get shut down for it.
Ha,Ha,Ha The Programs kill people lol. You have tried to discredit me, wikipedia, RCS, HLA, NATSAP, Georgia ORS, "All Programs" just because they disagreed with your argument. This is just today!!
The New York Times says that Obama won the Presidential Election!
DJ: "That paper is not credible, their readers kill people" lol
Now this is entertainment.
Trying to discredit Wikipedia is still in the lead for best post of the day, though, but the others were good.
...
-
It's actually DHS, not ORS, but they agree with me that a girl was raped at RCS by a male inmate due to lack of supervision of the dangerous criminals that roam the grounds freely. This is a main reason why NATSAP memebers are trying to distance themselves from the owner of RCS and founder of NATSAP, IMO. Too many raped and beaten kids keep showing up at RCS and the members of NATSAP don't want to be associated with that.
-
It's actually DHS, not ORS, but they agree with me that a girl was raped at RCS by a male inmate due to lack of supervisoin of the dangerous criminals that roam the grounds freely. This is a main reason why NATSAP memebers are trying to distance themselves from the owner of RCS and founder of NATSAP, IMO. Too many raped and beaten kids keep showing up at RCS and the members of NATSAP don't want to be associated with that.
You cant even get DHS to agree with you on the one rape. They used the words "Sexual activity", but since you have it out for HLA because they fired you for selling drugs to kids and lied on your employment application you spend 24/7 attacking their school. This is classic to watch.
I fabricated a Rape.
We know you did! DHS doesnt side with you DJ and you were left holding the bag with no evidence.
...
-
Rape
–noun
1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse
–verb (used with object)
6. to force to have sexual intercourse.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape)
That's rape.
Sexual Activity
noun
activities associated with sexual intercourse; "they had sex in the back seat"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexual+activity (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexual+activity)
That's sexual activity.
unwanted...sexual activity
Unwanted sexual activity is unwanted intercourse is rape. The girl was raped.
I hope this has been educational about this rape victim's circumstances at RCS. It is a sad story and could have been avoided with proper supervision. According to the DHS report RCS is inadequately staffed with untrained people.
Don't shoot the messenger.
-
Oh come on DJ, you cant discredit NATSAP based on an ORS report. Your argument does not even apply. I believe that NATSAP would do better if it had more teeth. But you cant blame them for all your problems and the fact that you were fired by the industry. You are taking your argument too far.
...
-
All I am saying is that these DHS reports keep coming out of RCS about beatings, stolen cars, police chases and now rapes are making it to the public and when people look at the reports and see the man who started NATSAP is responsible for the problems in the reports it makes them want to avoid the "guilt by association" factor. So they drop out of NATSAP because of this and also because of the awful problems at many NATSAP-approved facilities. The ones who haven't yet been caught for abuse don't want to be associated with the ones who have, many of which carry the NATSAP seal of approval, so the connection is there.
-
All I am saying is that these DHS reports keep coming out of RCS about beatings, stolen cars, police chases and now rapes are making it to the public and when people look at the reports and see the man who started NATSAP is responsible for the problems in the reports it makes them want to avoid the "guilt by association" factor. So they drop out of NATSAP because of this and also because of the awful problems at many NATSAP-approved facilities. The ones who haven't yet been caught for abuse don't want to be associated with the ones who have, many of which carry the NATSAP seal of approval, so the connection is there.
That is much better, DJ. You expressed an opinion and the readers can accept that, myself included. I dont agree with all of what you said but I respect your right to your opinion.
The problem I have is when people attack a program with lies and try to present them as facts.
...
-
This could possibly be because NATSAP was dreamed up, founded and funded by Len Buccellato of HLA/Ridge Creek "School" and he's getting a lot of bad publicity again for incidents at the private detention center RCS and that is transferring onto NATSAP. Those programs may want to try to disassociate themselves from Len's problems and bad press.
Yeah, it's the same opinion I had right at the beginning of this thread before Whooter derailed it. I guess your day-long tantrum was over nothing then. A bit of a waste of your day, no?
-
This could possibly be because NATSAP was dreamed up, founded and funded by Len Buccellato of HLA/Ridge Creek "School" and he's getting a lot of bad publicity again for incidents at the private detention center RCS and that is transferring onto NATSAP. Those programs may want to try to disassociate themselves from Len's problems and bad press.
Yeah, it's the same opinion I had right at the beginning of this thread before Whooter derailed it. I guess your day-long tantrum was over nothing then. A bit of a waste of your day, no?
No the two posts are not the same. The first one you tried to attack you ex-boss who fired you over lying on your employment application about not revealing your felony for selling drugs. I think inserting your personal agenda into the conversations lowers your credibility to almost nil. This is why I commented on your post initially.
You should try to separate out your need to get even with a man who was just doing his job. You had a felony background of selling drugs and there is no place for you being around kids in a program. You cant fault him for that. Just stay with the facts within your argument and you will be okay. Leave the personal stuff out of it.
...
-
No, they're the same. You've conceded your hissy fit was just over nothing. Next time you should try to exercise some self control and not spend all day running in circles only to agree with me in the end after you lose the argument. It's hard to watch you repeat this pattern over and over. You should try working on it and see what happens. Bruce will be in soon to help you work on this personal development you need so badly. Enjoy.
-
only to agree with me in the end after you lose the argument.
So this was my last post and you say you agree with me then:
You should try to separate out your need to get even with a man who was just doing his job. You had a felony background of selling drugs and there is no place for you being around kids in a program. You cant fault him for that. Just stay with the facts within your argument and you will be okay. Leave the personal stuff out of it.
Its good that we agree for a change.
...
-
Work with Bruce, dude. You're working a double again tonight and I expect you back at 7am after that. You know, your normal schedule? I think you should try to squeeze in a coffee and a sandwich before Bruce gets in because your performance dropped off all day and finally ended up with you conceding anyway. You have to do better on the overnight, bro, or you'll be let go. Any questions, go to Bruce. Any comments, go to Bruce.
-
Fact One: This post shows Dysfunction Junction worked at Daytop at one time. It also shows that he had a felony conviction and prison sentance.
Fact Two: He no longer works in the TBS field. According to him he got disillusioned with the industry. I suspect he isn't allowed to be employed by them with a previous felony conviction as most TBS's do background checks for most of their employees usually.
I'll bust your fucking teeth down your throat, choke you until you nearly fall unconscious, then give you a wake-up kick to the temple and send you on your merry way. Your pain, suffering and disfigurement wouldn't matter .......
Look, DJ, you dont need to threaten everyone that disagrees with you. I think we all know that if it were not for your criminal past that you would still be working in the TT industry instead of posting here on fornits to establish a resume that doesnt exist in real life. Maybe when you took this anger of yours out on the kids is why HLA decide to release you along with the fact you lied on your employment application.
...
-
All I am saying is that these DHS reports keep coming out of RCS about beatings, stolen cars, police chases and now rapes are making it to the public and when people look at the reports and see the man who started NATSAP is responsible for the problems in the reports it makes them want to avoid the "guilt by association" factor. So they drop out of NATSAP because of this and also because of the awful problems at many NATSAP-approved facilities. The ones who haven't yet been caught for abuse don't want to be associated with the ones who have, many of which carry the NATSAP seal of approval, so the connection is there.
That is much better, DJ. You expressed an opinion and the readers can accept that, myself included. I dont agree with all of what you said but I respect your right to your opinion.
The problem I have is when people attack a program with lies and try to present them as facts.
...
If he wasn't telling the truth, why were the lawsuits successful? You deny the past because the past is connected to the present. Natsap still exists. When it comes to Straight Inc, you'll try to win some over by expressing /some/ sympathy and saying things were done wrong but I don't think i've ever heard you criticize a current program. This is the exact same pattern as your run of the mill educational consultant. I have archived a Lon Woodbury review of Paradise Cove giving it glowing reviews. Turns out it wasn't much of a paradise... more of an inferno for those put there. But at the time it was a wonderful program. Cedu was open for quite some time too.
Parents should wonder about where their kids are at now, but the'll be conned. The excesses you claim no longer exist somehow happened at an Aspen program in Oregon. You insulted those who suffered at Aarc. You defend the worst of the worst and act like there's nothing at all wrong with what those kids went through. You pretend this doesn't happen anymore. You call them liars. To you the past is irrelevant. You claim they changed but where is the proof, other than your word which has historically had it's weaknesses to put it diplomatically. You can't deny that all these kids are saying the exact same thing year after year, generation after generation of program. They cannot all be lying because if they were their stories would not match.
And you always neglect to mention that NATSAP is merely a trade organization and many of these places have little or no real accreditation.
-
If he wasn't telling the truth, why were the lawsuits successful?
There are always going to be lawsuits regardless of how well run an organization is. Lawsuits are not a good measure of success or failure. Many times people see an opportunity to sue someone and they go after it.
You deny the past because the past is connected to the present. Natsap still exists. When it comes to Straight Inc, you'll try to win some over by expressing /some/ sympathy and saying things were done wrong but I don't think i've ever heard you criticize a current program. This is the exact same pattern as your run of the mill educational consultant. I have archived a Lon Woodbury review of Paradise Cove giving it glowing reviews. Turns out it wasn't much of a paradise... more of an inferno for those put there. But at the time it was a wonderful program. Cedu was open for quite some time too.
Hitler was time magazine Man of the Year. Hindsight is 20/20, psy. I am not a fan of CEDU or paradise cove. There are 100’s of programs out there and the argument always comes down to pointing the finger at one or two programs or a picture of the hobbit or a 300 pound staff member who sat on a kid.
The industry is growing stronger and getting better but there will always be a few that take their eyes off the children in place of higher profits. They will get the spot light but they dont necessarily represent the others.
Parents should wonder about where their kids are at now, but the'll be conned. The excesses you claim no longer exist somehow happened at an Aspen program in Oregon. You insulted those who suffered at Aarc. You defend the worst of the worst and act like there's nothing at all wrong with what those kids went through. You pretend this doesn't happen anymore. You call them liars. To you the past is irrelevant. You claim they changed but where is the proof, other than your word which has historically had it's weaknesses to put it diplomatically. You can't deny that all these kids are saying the exact same thing year after year, generation after generation of program. They cannot all be lying because if they were their stories would not match.
I have stated several times that there are good and bad programs today. Yet you criticize that. How many posters on fornits come out and say there are good programs today? Do you really believe that every program is bad and every child is abused? Why criticize my position being in the middle when you are surrounded by expremists?
And you always neglect to mention that NATSAP is merely a trade organization and many of these places have little or no real accreditation.
I never stated I was a big supporter of NATSAP,psy. Here are 2 responses in this thread from me.
I would support them as an association much more so if they had some stricter standards and enforced them, but they dont appear to do that. The requirements for membership are wide open and they dont seem to terminate memberships for falling below standards.
I think it would be good to give NATSAP some competition. This may cause these organizations to start stepping up end enforcing some standards for their members to meet, even if they are minimal to start with. Just to write a check to be a member is useless in my opinion.
Why does it bother people here so much that I can see both sides of the issue? Why are you threatened so much because I stand alone and don’t join the group think that all programs are evil and perform brainwashing?
I accept your opinions for the most part.
...
-
I have never said that every single program does these things, Whooter. You know that. That would be absurd. What i'm saying is that it's near impossible to tell a good program from a bad program (bad programs of old stayed open a long time by hiding their actions much in the same way modern programs do) and because of that, and because of how common abuse is, there are no good programs for all intents and purposes. The risk is simply too high.
-
I have never said that every single program does these things, Whooter. You know that. That would be absurd. What i'm saying is that it's near impossible to tell a good program from a bad program (bad programs of old stayed open a long time by hiding their actions much in the same way modern programs do) and because of that, and because of how common abuse is, there are no good programs for all intents and purposes. The risk is simply too high.
I agree with that to a certain extent, psy, that is why I would like to see a better association (good housekeeping seal of approval) to be formed which limits members to certain minimal requirements, accredited, licensed etc. and a probationary period for infractions found by DHS and finally removal from the association if minimal standards are not met. This would be an organization worth joining nd would help (versus further confuse or mislead) parents looking to find a good program.
...
-
I have never said that every single program does these things, Whooter. You know that. That would be absurd. What i'm saying is that it's near impossible to tell a good program from a bad program (bad programs of old stayed open a long time by hiding their actions much in the same way modern programs do) and because of that, and because of how common abuse is, there are no good programs for all intents and purposes. The risk is simply too high.
Where there's smoke, there's fire. psy is right about this, parents. You should find a way to get your kid real help from real professionals in your communities without exposing them to these reckless programs. Too many children have been damaged and too many have been lost.
-
I have never said that every single program does these things, Whooter. You know that. That would be absurd. What i'm saying is that it's near impossible to tell a good program from a bad program (bad programs of old stayed open a long time by hiding their actions much in the same way modern programs do) and because of that, and because of how common abuse is, there are no good programs for all intents and purposes. The risk is simply too high.
Where there's smoke, there's fire. psy is right about this, parents. You should find a way to get your kid real help from real professionals in your communities without exposing them to these reckless programs. Too many children have been damaged and too many have been lost.
This is an area where many of us agree. I would recommend that all parents seek out professionals locally to help your child prior to considering placement in a program. I have always been a strong believer that programs should be viewed as a last resort when all other options have been exhausted. There are those who feel children should never be placed in programs, but those like myself feel a parent should never give up and just hope for the best. Parents should consider all avenues available to help their child.
...
-
Does anyone know if there Is there a screening process for programs to be part of NATSAP?
I think there are minimal requirements to join. Someone posted them here on fornits a year or so ago. I would have to look back to see.
...
-
You insulted those who suffered at Aarc.
I think he went further than "insulting," psy. He called the AARC abuse victim a child molester and accused him of raping his own son. Of course Whooter did this under an assumed username, so it was only revealed it was him after his posts were linked to his "Whooter" username.
Whooter is just an example of the mentally ill, sick, control freaks that make up NATSAP's membership. There are many mor elike him out there right now with your kids behind closed doors. It's a really scary thought.
-
Lets not forget! lol
I like to go with the reports that supply links
Lets not forget your past DJ:
I was fired for what I did when they found out and now I am paying for it in prison.............I know firsthand what I am talking about because I molested a child in the past.
You are a sick person DJ.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=390164#p390164)
...
-
All I am saying is that these DHS reports keep coming out of RCS about beatings, stolen cars, police chases and now rapes are making it to the public and when people look at the reports and see the man who started NATSAP is responsible for the problems in the reports it makes them want to avoid the "guilt by association" factor. So they drop out of NATSAP because of this and also because of the awful problems at many NATSAP-approved facilities. The ones who haven't yet been caught for abuse don't want to be associated with the ones who have, many of which carry the NATSAP seal of approval, so the connection is there.
When the truth is told, the industry shills go bananas. This set off Whooter and now he's busy accusing everyine of molesting children to take the focus off the abuses committed by the programs he toils for.
-
lol, our DJ has a bit of a temper when the truth comes out.
Fact One: This post shows Dysfunction Junction worked at Daytop at one time. It also shows that he had a felony conviction and prison sentance.
Fact Two: He no longer works in the TBS field. According to him he got disillusioned with the industry. I suspect he isn't allowed to be employed by them with a previous felony conviction as most TBS's do background checks for most of their employees usually.
I'll bust your fucking teeth down your throat, choke you until you nearly fall unconscious, then give you a wake-up kick to the temple and send you on your merry way. Your pain, suffering and disfigurement wouldn't matter .......
Look, DJ, you dont need to threaten everyone that disagrees with you. I think we all know that if it were not for your criminal past that you would still be working in the TT industry instead of posting here on fornits to establish a resume that doesnt exist in real life. Maybe when you took this anger of yours out on the kids is why HLA decide to release you and the fact that HLA found out about your drug conviction that you lied about.
...
-
All I am saying is that these DHS reports keep coming out of RCS about beatings, stolen cars, police chases and now rapes are making it to the public and when people look at the reports and see the man who started NATSAP is responsible for the problems in the reports it makes them want to avoid the "guilt by association" factor. So they drop out of NATSAP because of this and also because of the awful problems at many NATSAP-approved facilities. The ones who haven't yet been caught for abuse don't want to be associated with the ones who have, many of which carry the NATSAP seal of approval, so the connection is there.
Am I not allowed to state my opinions without being attacked personally for them? Isn't that against the rules of this forum?
-
When the truth is told, the industry shills go bananas. This set off Whooter and now he's busy accusing everyine of molesting children to take the focus off the abuses committed by the programs he toils for.
I am not attacking or accusing anyone of anything, DJ. We both agreed that posting the truth cannot be construed as an attack. As far as your statement of molesting children you will notice that I have supplied a link to the original statement. I am posting this because you are in error. Lets take another look:
I like to go with the reports that supply links
Lets not forget your past DJ:
I was fired for what I did when they found out and now I am paying for it in prison.............I know firsthand what I am talking about because I molested a child in the past.
You are a sick person DJ.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=390164#p390164)
...
-
When the truth is told, the industry shills go bananas. This set off Whooter and now he's busy accusing everyine of molesting children to take the focus off the abuses committed by the programs he toils for.
I am not attacking or accusing anyone of anything, DJ. We both agreed that posting the truth cannot be construed as an attack. As far as your statement of molesting children you will notice that I have supplied a link to the original statement. I am posting this because you are in error. Lets take another look:
I like to go with the reports that supply links
Lets not forget your past DJ:
I was fired for what I did when they found out and now I am paying for it in prison.............I know firsthand what I am talking about because I molested a child in the past.
You are a sick person DJ.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=390164#p390164)
...
-
Nutsac and member dropping out..?
What?
:D
:roflmao:
-
So NATSAP is useless then. They don't enforce any standards. They're just a trade group.
I would support them as an association much more so if they had some stricter standards and enforced them, but they dont appear to do that. The requirements for membership are wide open and they dont seem to terminate memberships for falling below standards.
So normal people can conclude what DJ said....
So NATSAP is useless then. They don't enforce any standards. They're just a trade group.
-
I thought it was pretty basic material when I presented it, too.
-
So NATSAP is useless then. They don't enforce any standards. They're just a trade group.
I would support them as an association much more so if they had some stricter standards and enforced them, but they dont appear to do that. The requirements for membership are wide open and they dont seem to terminate memberships for falling below standards.
So normal people can conclude what DJ said....
So NATSAP is useless then. They don't enforce any standards. They're just a trade group.
I dont view things as black and white, Anne. I understand that you and people like DJ view the world this way.. i.e. all programs are bad, every child gets abused, all edcons are evil, NATSAP is useless etc. These are phrases people use when they are unwilling to step back and look at the larger picture or have a prejudice of some type.
I dont think NATSAP is useless at all. I just think they could be more effective if they had more teeth and stricter standards to become and maintain membership.
Do you see, Anne, how you twist things yourself?
...
-
I dont view things as black and white, Anne. I understand that you and people like DJ view the world this way.. i.e. all programs are bad, every child gets abused, all edcons are evil, NATSAP is useless etc. These are phrases people use when they are unwilling to step back and look at the larger picture or have a prejudice of some type.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: OMG.....that's hilarious!!!! It's you guys that view the world as black and white. The LGAT-type programs say they can "cure" anyone, no matter what the malady (drugs, anorexia, "defiant" behavior, dressing in all black :eek: etc.). I've NEVER said that all programs are bad/evil etc. Don't forget, I have a daughter that went through some really tough shit for 5+ years. Her father and his parents (and my dad) were absolutely convinced that she would die if I didn't put her in a program similar to Straight and that was the only way. She proved that bullshit wrong. What I have said is that the programs that use the LGAT-type methods are abusive by their very nature, and I've been very careful to make that distinction. Yet another example of you twisting.
Dude......you're done. :seg:
Do you see, Anne, how you twist things yourself?
No.
-
I dont view things as black and white, Anne. I understand that you and people like DJ view the world this way.. i.e. all programs are bad, every child gets abused, all edcons are evil, NATSAP is useless etc. These are phrases people use when they are unwilling to step back and look at the larger picture or have a prejudice of some type.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: OMG.....that's hilarious!!!! It's you guys that view the world as black and white. The LGAT-type programs say they can "cure" anyone, no matter what the malady (drugs, anorexia, "defiant" behavior, dressing in all black :eek: etc.). I've NEVER said that all programs are bad/evil etc. Don't forget, I have a daughter that went through some really tough shit for 5+ years. Her father and his parents (and my dad) were absolutely convinced that she would die if I didn't put her in a program similar to Straight and that was the only way. She proved that bullshit wrong. What I have said is that the programs that use the LGAT-type methods are abusive by their very nature, and I've been very careful to make that distinction. Yet another example of you twisting.
Dude......you're done. :seg:
Do you see, Anne, how you twist things yourself?
No.
I think anyone who has read my posts know that I dont view things in black and white. I can see typically see both sides of an argument. NATSAP can be considered a little weak without being viewed as useless. I am able to make that distinction but in your post above you were not able to separate that out.
...
-
I think anyone who has read my posts know that I dont view things in black and white. I can see typically see both sides of an argument. NATSAP can be considered a little weak without being viewed as useless. I am able to make that distinction but in your post above you were not able to separate that out.
Wow.....what happened while I was gone? You've really gone off the deep end now. I mean, you've always been a prick, but......WOW.
-
I think anyone who has read my posts know that I dont view things in black and white. I can see typically see both sides of an argument. NATSAP can be considered a little weak without being viewed as useless. I am able to make that distinction but in your post above you were not able to separate that out.
Wow.....what happened while I was gone? You've really gone off the deep end now. I mean, you've always been a prick, but......WOW.
I think this is The Grand Finale. He has been very busy the past few days with really nasty and false personal attacks, so you're not alone.
-
I think anyone who has read my posts know that I dont view things in black and white. I can see typically see both sides of an argument. NATSAP can be considered a little weak without being viewed as useless. I am able to make that distinction but in your post above you were not able to separate that out.
Wow.....what happened while I was gone? You've really gone off the deep end now. I mean, you've always been a prick, but......WOW.
Don't be idiotic. You think Whooter is here just giving his honest opinion? Whooter is a troll. Trolls will say whatever required to get a rise out of the audience. The audience here, hates programs. So what does he say? Programs are wonderful. It's that simple. That is why you get up every morning and come to check fornits, and argue with Whooter. It's pathetic, all of you. The same argument, every single fucking day. Don't you ever get tired of going in circles with each other? You waste so much time and energy on an internet troll, how sad for you.
-
I think anyone who has read my posts know that I dont view things in black and white. I can see typically see both sides of an argument. NATSAP can be considered a little weak without being viewed as useless. I am able to make that distinction but in your post above you were not able to separate that out.
Wow.....what happened while I was gone? You've really gone off the deep end now. I mean, you've always been a prick, but......WOW.
I think this is The Grand Finale. He has been very busy the past few days with really nasty and false personal attacks, so you're not alone.
Are you mentally ill? How many times have you claimed that because of you (of course) that Whooter will soon be banned, tarred and feathered and run out of fornits forever? The time is coming, it's soon, bla, blah, bla. You are so full of shit. You are here everyday having the same damn argument with a troll, wow, big life accomplishment there!! Your parents would be so proud. Whooter is pathetic. Probably a combination of anger/loneliness and hatred for people like you drives them to post here all day, everyday. Yet you are here to reply and keep it going. Fuck you Dysfunction for being an egomaniac, and your punishment for this character flaw is a lifetime of pointless arguing on fornits with trolls. I am flabbergasted at how people take this all seriously, you act like defeating Whooter is some kind of righteous agenda. You are pathetic and with every post you continue to demonstrate that. How sad you have nothing better to do with your life.
-
But you spend your life giving the play by play of it. Isn't that even more of a waste? Doesn't that make you even more pathetic? Just askin'.
I did get Whooter banned for a week just a few weeks ago, BTW. Right now he has another case in the Supreme Court with a much bigger penalty riding on it. Like I said, give it a few days.
-
Don't be idiotic. You think Whooter is here just giving his honest opinion? Whooter is a troll. Trolls will say whatever required to get a rise out of the audience. The audience here, hates programs. So what does he say? Programs are wonderful. It's that simple. That is why you get up every morning and come to check fornits, and argue with Whooter. It's pathetic, all of you. The same argument, every single fucking day. Don't you ever get tired of going in circles with each other? You waste so much time and energy on an internet troll, how sad for you.
:notworthy:
Are you mentally ill? How many times have you claimed that because of you (of course) that Whooter will soon be banned, tarred and feathered and run out of fornits forever? The time is coming, it's soon, bla, blah, bla. You are so full of shit. You are here everyday having the same damn argument with a troll, wow, big life accomplishment there!! Your parents would be so proud. Whooter is pathetic. Probably a combination of anger/loneliness and hatred for people like you drives them to post here all day, everyday. Yet you are here to reply and keep it going. Fuck you Dysfunction for being an egomaniac, and your punishment for this character flaw is a lifetime of pointless arguing on fornits with trolls. I am flabbergasted at how people take this all seriously, you act like defeating Whooter is some kind of righteous agenda. You are pathetic and with every post you continue to demonstrate that. How sad you have nothing better to do with your life.
:notworthy:
TROLL FEEDERS :ftard: :beat: :timeout: :feedtrolls:
-
I did get Whooter banned for a week just a few weeks ago, BTW.
Well then, you can die a satisfied man, because your life truly had meaning. You are fucking insane, just like all the other losers who get trapped in Whooter's net. Tha'ts right, Whooter is trolling you and has you in his net. He is in control of you, not the other way around. You know what? I bet Whooter is laughing at you right now. Sure, he's a troll and annoying sometimes. But people like you and Anne Bonney who feed trolls , day after fucking day, are the worst. Ban yourslef from fornits, do us all a favor!
-
I did get Whooter banned for a week just a few weeks ago, BTW.
Well then, you can die a satisfied man, because your life truly had meaning. You are fucking insane, just like all the other losers who get trapped in Whooter's net. Tha'ts right, Whooter is trolling you and has you in his net. He is in control of you, not the other way around. You know what? I bet Whooter is laughing at you right now.
Yep Sure, he's a troll and annoying sometimes.
annoying all times [quote="Guest"But people like you and Anne Bonney who feed trolls , day after fucking day, are the worst. Ban yourslef from fornits, do us all a favor![/quote] Woah there. Going too far now
-
He's not laughing. Just look how he's acting out. It's actually Whooter who has blown a gasket, is out of control and is a compulsive poster. I like to use his sickness to bring attention to topics I'd like to be viewed and also to help those topics climb in search engine rankings. He's a useful idiot. All of the good posts and discussion are in the first few pages and then Whooter's rage and insecurity keep the thread on top as he posts compulsively. If he fucks up the thread right away, I report it to moderators so they clean it up and then when the thread has run its course, but isn't easily searchable,
I get Whooter to keep it at the top and improve its rankings. It's a system I like to use.
-
I think anyone who has read my posts know that I dont view things in black and white. I can see typically see both sides of an argument. NATSAP can be considered a little weak without being viewed as useless. I am able to make that distinction but in your post above you were not able to separate that out.
:roflmao: :roflmao:
-
If whooter is so integral to your annoying system then why do you want him banned? Can;t you come up with a better system than keeping stupid troll feeding threads at the top?
-
If Ethics Committees were to be assigned the task of investigating complaints, looking into situations their own members became aware of and communicate informally, then gathering and presenting evidence to a different body that is impartial to judge the situation, we believe that the compliance with the standards would be vastly enhanced. We believe that this approach would close the gap between what is on paper in well written ethics statements, and what actually occurs, would be narrowed.
We are aware of specific noncompliance in both NATSAP and IECA that are in addition to specific concerns reported on this website. We don’t enter formal complaints where we lack evidence that we can present without breaking confidentiality and without risking a complex legal entanglement. Like most people, we are reluctant to take on the role of prosecutor. We believe the alleged standards of both NATSAP and IECA would be far more credible if these organizations would supply the investigative body and the prosecutor and not just the tribunal.
NATSAP is basically useless, even according to EdCons.
-
For those readers unfamiliar with the topic of NATSAP more information can be found here:
NATSAP Information (http://http://www.natsap.com/)
...
-
More on NATSAP and its ineffectiveness:
Following the testimony by the parents, Ms. Moss of NATSAP, a trade organization of 180 residential
treatment programs that served 16,000 youth in 2006, described her organization and its efforts to work
to ensure that only programs of the highest quality are on the market. She indicated that early in 2007,
the NATSAP Board of Directors had passed a new requirement for membership. The Board now requires
that all prospective members must either be licensed by a state mental health agency, or accredited by an
appropriate mental health accrediting organization. Ms. Moss indicated that her organization was not an
accrediting organization itself, and did not look upon itself as providing a “Good Housekeeping Seal of
Approval” to programs.
Rep. Todd Russell Platts pointed that of the 10 programs studied by GAO, five were NATSAP members
at the time of the fatality, and that while two of these programs had since closed, three continued to operate.
Rep. Dale E. Kildee asked Ms. Moss about the number of complaints that NATSAP had looked into of
their member programs, and asked for records on this. While Ms. Moss indicated that the primary benefits
that NATSAP members receive are educational benefits, such as access to conferences and regional meetings,
Rep. Kildee noted that member programs “may gain a certain credibility” by belonging to NATSAP that
can be used for marketing. He indicated that NATSAP has “something to prove to this Committee and the
American public that you are supplying more than just credibility.”
Mr. Kutz noted that the NATSAP logo was displayed prominently in the marketing of the programs
that they had studied, and Dr. Pinto reported that parents with whom she had talked often referred to a
program’s membership in NATSAP, and were not sure how to interpret what it meant. Dr. Pinto also reported
that parents have no place to get accurate and complete information about programs, and that in earlier
correspondence, NATSAP had referred to concerns about the problem of abuse and neglect in residential
treatment as “the noisy complaint of a few individuals.” Ms. Moss indicated that NATSAP wanted to improve
the quality of residential treatment, that they had already taken some steps in this direction by strengthening
the membership requirements, and that their Board would take the input from the Committee under close
consideration.
Dr. Pinto reported that she had conducted an on-line survey of youth and parents in an attempt to
determine if in fact the complaints about residential treatment were restricted to a few isolated incidents, or
were more widespread. Over a six-month period she received more than 700 responses to a lengthy survey.
Respondents had participated in 85 different programs in 23 states, and while some respondents reported
having positive experiences, complaints of mistreatment were widespread and significant. The complaints
included deficiencies in health care and sanitation, unreported incidents of physical and sexual abuse, violation
of basic human rights such as privacy and dignity, requiring individuals to endure painful stress positions for
extended periods of time, providing very little food and inadequate nutrition, engaging in cruel and dangerous
thought reform procedures, and using seclusion and restraint procedures excessively. Overall, Dr. Pinto
indicated that the survey respondents had expressed “profound distress about their residential care experiences.”
In only six months Dr. Pinto received over 700 complaints. Staggering data.
-
NATSAP stands for: The National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs
NATSAP Information (http://http://www.natsap.com/)
...
-
I am tired of smelling your garbage disfuntion junction. You are very annoying, what program were you in?
-
Actually, many of the programs that had deaths and serious abuse problems *were* NATSAP members, including the one in which Paul Lewis’ son died. How did he die? He was sent to the program because he was suicidally depressed. He threatened to commit suicide. The program thought he was faking and ignored him. He hung himself. The program had *no* plan for dealing with suicides and Ryan’s threats were *not* evaluated by professional staff.
There is *no* evidence that these programs help *anyone*– and lots of risk. Anecdote is not evidence. If your child has a particular problem, find professionals who deal with *that problem* not with a one-size-fits-all punitive program that says it can treat Asperger’s with the same approach it uses on addiction.
And if a program will not let you talk to your child, makes your child “earn” the privilege of talking with you, or tells you to ignore your child’s complaints of abuse– run the other direction. If you are told to automatically ignore complaints, how would you know if they are true? Any program that sees all teens with mental health problems as “liars” and “manipulators” doesn’t empathize with teens and therefore will not be effective in treating them and will be dangerous, as real health complaints will be ignored.
Link (http://http://www.empoweringparents.com/blog/boot-camps-military-schools/are-boot-camps-safe-for-your-child-%E2%80%93-part-1-of-2/)
-
The hot topic these days is The National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs. If anyone wants more information on this topic you can get it here:
NATSAP Information (http://http://www.natsap.com/)
...
-
I believe repetitive posting of a website URL advertising NATSAP is a violatoin of the "anti-Spam" rules here. Everyone saw it the first time it was posted. It's still there. Repeating the posting isn't adding to the conversation. Several serious NATSAP criticisms were levelled and we should discuss those rather than Spam this thread.
-
Fuck all y'all, especially you, motherfucker. :twofinger: :fuckoff: ::deadhorse:: :fuckoff: :fuckoff: :moon: :rofl: :roflmao: :sue: :beat: :twofinger:
-
If whooter is so integral to your annoying system then why do you want him banned? Can;t you come up with a better system than keeping stupid troll feeding threads at the top?
Maybe. What do you suggest? When Whooter is gone, I will just use his stock responses from the archives. He really can't add anymore to his work. It's been plain repetition for about 3 years now. We have the material we need.
-
I believe repetitive posting of a website URL advertising NATSAP is a violatoin of the "anti-Spam" rules here. Everyone saw it the first time it was posted. It's still there. Repeating the posting isn't adding to the conversation. Several serious NATSAP criticisms were levelled and we should discuss those rather than Spam this thread.
I think everyone has heard your opinion of NATSAP also more than once.
...
-
I think NATSAP is garbage, personally.
-
I think NATSAP is garbage, personally.
Calm down, now DJ.
...
-
If whooter is so integral to your annoying system then why do you want him banned?
If Disfunction Junction was kicking whooters ass all over the forum and making a fool out of him do you think he would want to get him banned? Think about it. He wants him banned because whooter makes him look like a fool all day everyday.
-
I'm calm. I just think NATSAP is garbage. They have no enforceable standards and several programs that negligently killed kids are members in good standing at NATSAP. This is a huge problem.
-
Whooter makes himself look like a fool all day every day. His supposed arguments aren't at all difficult to counter. Most of his statements are ridiculous that there is no reason to reply. DJ and RB Not worth it to :wall: expend that much effort.
They have every reason to defend themselves when whooter intentionally misquotes or entirely fabricated quotes. Unfortunately, it’s just static considering they’ve spent so much time fucking feeding the thing.
-
If whooter is so integral to your annoying system then why do you want him banned?
If Disfunction Junction was kicking whooters ass all over the forum and making a fool out of him do you think he would want to get him banned? Think about it. He wants him banned because whooter makes him look like a fool all day everyday.
Thanks Guest :tup:
...
-
Whatever you may think the reason is, it's coming up shortly.
-
Our researchers have noticed that a number of former NATSAP members have dropped out of the organization. They are mentioned in various documents but they don't figure when you search the database. Not that it is a problem for our research, but it is an interesting trend.
Are anyone aware of if there is some kind of split going on inside this organization?
It seems that way.
-
All I am saying is that these DHS reports keep coming out of RCS about beatings, stolen cars, police chases and now rapes are making it to the public and when people look at the reports and see the man who started NATSAP is responsible for the problems in the reports it makes them want to avoid the "guilt by association" factor. So they drop out of NATSAP because of this and also because of the awful problems at many NATSAP-approved facilities. The ones who haven't yet been caught for abuse don't want to be associated with the ones who have, many of which carry the NATSAP seal of approval, so the connection is there.
That is much better, DJ. You expressed an opinion and the readers can accept that, myself included. I dont agree with all of what you said but I respect your right to your opinion.
The problem I have is when people attack a program with lies and try to present them as facts.
...
If he wasn't telling the truth, why were the lawsuits successful? You deny the past because the past is connected to the present. Natsap still exists. When it comes to Straight Inc, you'll try to win some over by expressing /some/ sympathy and saying things were done wrong but I don't think i've ever heard you criticize a current program. This is the exact same pattern as your run of the mill educational consultant. I have archived a Lon Woodbury review of Paradise Cove giving it glowing reviews. Turns out it wasn't much of a paradise... more of an inferno for those put there. But at the time it was a wonderful program. Cedu was open for quite some time too.
Parents should wonder about where their kids are at now, but the'll be conned. The excesses you claim no longer exist somehow happened at an Aspen program in Oregon. You insulted those who suffered at Aarc. You defend the worst of the worst and act like there's nothing at all wrong with what those kids went through. You pretend this doesn't happen anymore. You call them liars. To you the past is irrelevant. You claim they changed but where is the proof, other than your word which has historically had it's weaknesses to put it diplomatically. You can't deny that all these kids are saying the exact same thing year after year, generation after generation of program. They cannot all be lying because if they were their stories would not match.
And you always neglect to mention that NATSAP is merely a trade organization and many of these places have little or no real accreditation.
:notworthy: :tup: