Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Topic started by: Judge Joe Brown on December 09, 2010, 02:47:04 PM
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deleted September 8, 2011
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Great thread!
I think we should start with what education levels are needed for the various positions. I am sure that most of the people have at least a little education, highschool diploma GED etc. which may be fine for some positions but we should define the standard first in order to determine if the people they hire meet the minimal requirements for their job position.
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UMMMM.....Lemme see 1.cause they work cheap
2. cause they'll buy in,drink the cool-aid ,and not know any better.
3. they cant be held accountable to any certifications or licences.
Does that about cover it? :nods:
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UMMMM.....Lemme see 1.cause they work cheap
2. cause they'll buy in,drink the cool-aid ,and not know any better.
3. they cant be held accountable to any certifications or licences.
Does that about cover it? :nods:
Not a bad idea, seamus, think of the profits they could reap if they could just do "on the job training" with high school drop outs lol. Maybe that is the next generation of schools!
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Where in the hell do you think straight got ITS staff? Though I sometimes say things in a thin( ok,ok not so thin) layer of sarcasm,that doesnt keep it form being true. Truly a trait of a fraudulent establishment. Caveat emptor and all that shit.
Why is it Ive never seen any of the wilderness programs having a trained/ certified First Responder/ W.E.M.T./E.M.T/or Paramedic out the backside of beyond with "troubled" youth? Even if the "therapy" end of it isnt bs,what good does it do a dead child? I fucking hate the Idea of some kid dying some where because profit was more important than life itself. Why do kids die in programs for horseshit reasons? Just to be the devils advocate lemme say this(with a grain of sarcasm)
What a marketing gimmick from hell it would be to boast of a program actually having such staff. But alas, it might cut into somebodys profits,so ........Even you gotta admit governmental,stauatory reqirements for progams are shoddy as hell.
And that doesent get into the abuse/mindfuck end of it.
If it were MY child,id want to see documentation for this "fully trained" staff. If memory serves, at straight they were called "para-pofessional", which in reality meant SQUAT.....I seriously doubt there ever could be a " good " program,just because of such issues. Just think of how fucking EXPENSIVE it would have to be to turn a fucking profit,and if it didnt turn a profit, it wouldnt exist( Where would the profit motive be?) at all.
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Where in the hell do you think straight got ITS staff? Though I sometimes say things in a thin( ok,ok not so thin) layer of sarcasm,that doesnt keep it form being true. Truly a trait of a fraudulent establishment. Caveat emptor and all that shit.
Why is it Ive never seen any of the wilderness programs having a trained/ certified First Responder/ W.E.M.T./E.M.T/or Paramedic out the backside of beyond with "troubled" youth? Even if the "therapy" end of it isnt bs,what good does it do a dead child? I fucking hate the Idea of some kid dying some where because profit was more important than life itself. Why do kids die in programs for horseshit reasons? Just to be the devils advocate lemme say this(with a grain of sarcasm)
What a marketing gimmick from hell it would be to boast of a program actually having such staff. But alas, it might cut into somebodys profits,so ........Even you gotta admit governmental,stauatory reqirements for progams are shoddy as hell.
And that doesent get into the abuse/mindfuck end of it.
If it were MY child,id want to see documentation for this "fully trained" staff. If memory serves, at straight they were called "para-pofessional", which in reality meant SQUAT.....I seriously doubt there ever could be a " good " program,just because of such issues. Just think of how fucking EXPENSIVE it would have to be to turn a fucking profit,and if it didnt turn a profit, it wouldnt exist( Where would the profit motive be?) at all.
It has gotten much better since then, Seamus. Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors. I am with you and I also wish they had more requirements around getting these people better trained as first responders or at least getting more trained people into the field.
The wilderness programs are a hell of a lot safer than they were 10, 20 30 years ago and a lot more effective.
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Note:
when a program representative says: "we've changed" or "we don't do that anymore".
he/she really means "we're calling it something else, but it's pretty much the exact same thing."
I have no doubt that programs today are hiring people with records, or at the very least with very little qualification. WWASP being a good example. There are countless others, including "reputable" programs, who have been caught employing under-qualified personnel.
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They measure it with the body count.
CONFIRM tHE KILL.
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Note:
when a program representative says: "we've changed" or "we don't do that anymore".
he/she really means "we're calling it something else, but it's pretty much the exact same thing."
I have no doubt that programs today are hiring people with records, or at the very least with very little qualification. WWASP being a good example. There are countless others, including "reputable" programs, who have been caught employing under-qualified personnel.
Thats why it is important for parents to check themselves. Qualifications can be verified and parents can ask to speak with other parents who who have had kids go thru the process. They can ask to see if studies have been done. etc.
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Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors.
That's an awfully big claim to make without citation. You'll have to provide some evidence for this, Whooter. I have never, ever seen a single "Board Certified Counselor" and here you're claiming most wilderness programs have them backing up "licensed personnel"? I call bullshit.
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Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors.
That's an awfully big claim to make without citation. You'll have to provide some evidence for this, Whooter. I have never, ever seen a single "Board Certified Counselor" and here you're claiming most wilderness programs have them backing up "licensed personnel"? I call bullshit.
From my readings I was under the impression all Wilderness programs today hired licensed professionals.
Here are the people from SUWS as an example:
Link (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/staff.html)
SUWS
Leah is a Certified Counselor with the National Board of Certified Counselors, has a Masters of Science Degree in Community Counseling,
Jesse Quam is the Clinical Director for SUWS of the Carolinas. Before earning his Masters of Clinical Social Work from Boston College (May, 2005), Jesse worked for Aspen Achievement Academy,
Clinical Team
4 LPC’s
2 LCSW’s
1 Phd
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First this...
Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors.
Presented as fact that at least 50% plus one wilderness programs fit this bill.
From my readings I was under the impression all Wilderness programs today hired licensed professionals.
Now presented as Whooter's impression based on one counselor from one program having a certification.
I didn't see anywhere even in the sole example you provided that any counselor was actually licensed to practice either.
So, of all wilderness programs in the US today, Whooter has shown that one has one certified counselor, but has failed in a miserable way to prove that the majority of wilderness programs have certified counselors and has not shown any counselors of any wilderness programs to be licensed to practice therapy.
You have to parse Whooter's statements carefully because what he presents as "facts" are actually just his uninformed opinions with no facts at all.
From my readings I was under the impression...
Don't you read Fornits, Whooter? We have posted dozens of examples of wilderness programs hiring uneducated, unlicensed, uncertified "counselors." This is usually posted in conjunction with an article describing how a kid in their care was maimed or killed by these very same unqualified people. Let's knock off the lying, Whooter. You know as well as the rest of us do that your premise is completely false. You are now in retreat mode to distance yourself from your ridiculous and false assertion.
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UMMMM.....Lemme see 1.cause they work cheap
2. cause they'll buy in,drink the cool-aid ,and not know any better.
3. they cant be held accountable to any certifications or licences.
Does that about cover it? :nods:
Pretty much, yes.
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I have never, ever seen a single "Board Certified Counselor" and here you're claiming most wilderness programs have them backing up "licensed personnel"? I call bullshit.
Lets see, DJ has never seen a Board Certified Counselor in Wilderness Programs. The first program I looked at was SUWS of the Carolinas
Here are the people from SUWS as an example:
Link (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/staff.html)
SUWS
Leah is a Certified Counselor with the National Board of Certified Counselors, has a Masters of Science Degree in Community Counseling,
Jesse Quam is the Clinical Director for SUWS of the Carolinas. Before earning his Masters of Clinical Social Work from Boston College (May, 2005), Jesse worked for Aspen Achievement Academy,
Clinical Team
4 LPC’s
2 LCSW’s
1 Phd
So we can conclude that wilderness Programs Hire licensed and Board Certified employees.
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Note:
when a program representative says: "we've changed" or "we don't do that anymore".
he/she really means "we're calling it something else, but it's pretty much the exact same thing."
I have no doubt that programs today are hiring people with records, or at the very least with very little qualification. WWASP being a good example. There are countless others, including "reputable" programs, who have been caught employing under-qualified personnel.
Thats why it is important for parents to check themselves. Qualifications can be verified and parents can ask to speak with other parents who who have had kids go thru the process. They can ask to see if studies have been done. etc.
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"including "reputable" programs"
Geesh, would these be Aspen programs.
Thats why it is important for parents to check themselves. Qualifications can be verified and parents can ask to speak with other parents who who have had kids go thru the process. They can ask to see if studies have been done. etc.
This is just another classical asinine statement that just jumps from your brain to your fingers. Yeah every parent is just doing this Whooter.
OK, lets say the parents do try to investigate the qualifications of employees as you say. One would assume the said program Directors are fully aware of their staff qualifications and/or lack of. That being said, Whooter do you really think that the Director of said program is going to allow this information to be made readily available especially staff that barely made it through H.S.
Shit, the programs can't even find Directors with the proper schooling and we all know know that information was not made available until a program closing "outed" the info, (Bitz, in case you were wondering).
Whooter, all your foolishness is so stupid really. You could give a rats ass about children.
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This is just another classical asinine statement that just jumps from your brain to your fingers. Yeah every parent is just doing this Whooter.
OK, lets say the parents do try to investigate the qualifications of employees as you say. One would assume the said program Directors are fully aware of their staff qualifications and/or lack of. That being said, Whooter do you really think that the Director of said program is going to allow this information to be made readily available especially staff that barely made it through H.S.
Shit, the programs can't even find Directors with the proper schooling and we all know know that information was not made available until a program closing "outed" the info, (Bitz, in case you were wondering).
Whooter, all your foolishness is so stupid really. You could give a rats ass about children.
Many of the programs have the names and education right on their website. We need to be aware that not all the sites are kept up to date. But you should be able to get started here:
Link (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/staff.html)
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Whooter wrote:
It has gotten much better since then, Seamus. Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors. I am with you and I also wish they had more requirements around getting these people better trained as first responders or at least getting more trained people into the field.`
The wilderness programs are a hell of a lot safer than they were 10, 20 30 years ago and a lot more effective.
How would measure effectiveness?
I would measure it by assessing the child upon arrival, again at discharge and then again 6 months or a year out. With a large enough population you could tell how successful the program has been.
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Whooter wrote:
The wilderness programs are a hell of a lot safer than they were 10, 20 30 years ago and a lot more effective.
How would measure effectiveness?
I would measure it by assessing the child upon arrival, again at discharge and then again 6 months or a year out. With a large enough population you could tell how successful the program has been.
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Don't you think that it would be more effective to assess them 3 or 4 years down the road. These programs are supposed to be life changing. A year out doesn't really show anything, I mean at 100 grand a person, don't you think there should be lifelong change and not just a years worth?
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Don't you think that it would be more effective to assess them 3 or 4 years down the road. These programs are supposed to be life changing. A year out doesn't really show anything, I mean at 100 grand a person, don't you think there should be lifelong change and not just a years worth?
I think that is a really good question. The program should get the child back on track and then after graduation they should be heading down a healthy path for a reasonable period of time. But for how long?
After the child graduates he will be outside the influences of the 24/7 care. He can make choices on what friends to hang around with, where he lives, family influences, what he reads, who he listens too, what road models he chooses and the influences of the program will fade and be replaced by the influences of the environment the child chooses.
I think parents expectations may be until the child reaches adult age, is more mature and can better grasp the consequences of his/her actions.
We could think of it like taking antibiotics for an ear infection. The doctor can get you all better again and educate you on the causes and then send you back into the world.
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This is just another classical asinine statement that just jumps from your brain to your fingers. Yeah every parent is just doing this Whooter.
OK, lets say the parents do try to investigate the qualifications of employees as you say. One would assume the said program Directors are fully aware of their staff qualifications and/or lack of. That being said, Whooter do you really think that the Director of said program is going to allow this information to be made readily available especially staff that barely made it through H.S.
Of course they would, Heretik. The information is available on the programs’ web site most of the time. They post the names and backgrounds of their staff. I am sure there are jobs for people who have their High school diploma. I wouldn’t try to discredit them for that, practically every business has a need for the lower paid/qualified people.
Shit, the programs can't even find Directors with the proper schooling and we all know know that information was not made available until a program closing "outed" the info, (Bitz, in case you were wondering).
I am not sure what you mean? Sharon Bitz’s education was available for people to view. Where did you get this idea?
I do admit that it is difficult to find qualified people to relocate to these rural areas, but I don’t see them as under qualified.
Whooter, all your foolishness is so stupid really. You could give a rats ass about children.
Well, the way I see it you are the one who is selfish and couldn’t care about the kids. You are willing to deny kids treatment because you happen to think all programs are the same. You are worse than the guy who thinks all programs are great because he had a good experience. You shouldn’t look at the world as black and white. There are many shades of gray, Heretik, try to open your mind a little and step back and give the kids credit who worked hard to turn their lives around instead of crapping on them.
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UMMMM.....Lemme see 1.cause they work cheap
2. cause they'll buy in,drink the cool-aid ,and not know any better.
3. they cant be held accountable to any certifications or licences.
Does that about cover it? :nods:
seamus knows the deal. The rest of this thread is basically Whooter trying to avoid this axiom.
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Whooter, please show us an example of a employee record/file of all employees (staff) and their qualifications/credentials. Use one of your Aspen favorites. I will guarantee you will not find the lower paid staff (who actually do most of the day to day functions) on your list, properly bio'd.
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Lets take another look:
Residential Program Example:
click “Faculty & staff Bio’s”
Link (http://http://www.swiftriver.com/about/staff.htm)
Even the guy who drives the van is listed.
Wilderness Program Example:
Link (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/staff.html)
Click at the bottom for "complete staff list"
Even the housekeeper is listed!
I have never, ever seen a single "Board Certified Counselor" and here you're claiming most wilderness programs have them backing up "licensed personnel"? I call bullshit.
Read it and weep, DJ:
Link (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/staff.html)
Leah is a Certified Counselor with the National Board of Certified Counselors, has a Masters of Science Degree in Community Counseling,
Well what do ya know...."Board Certified Counselors"
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Shit.....Maybe I should be a feild instuctor, I can see my bio now:
Seamus, Earl of Donnybrook
I am a graduate and former staff member of Straight inc, I attended university of Florida,majoring in Pre-med. Was an E.M.T./ Paramedic and Firefighter for 14 years, and a Police officer for 2.
I hold current certification as a wilderness 1st responder. I raced dogsleds ,in both sprint,and mid-distance. Have competed in summer biathalon,and shot IPSC as well. In my free time I enjoy reading,writing short stories,climbing , kayaking,cross-country skiing, fishing hunting and winter camping.I play 6 instruments,and ride horses as well. :roflmao: :ftard:
DISCLAIMER: while seamus is guilty of more than occasional sarcasm,and general asshattery, he has absolutly no desire to be involved in ANY sort of program EVER, on any level.....PERIOD.....Its just not in me. Its not who I am.
I have a buddy, who lives in another state who does give a voluntary demonstration of blacksmithing at a program about every 6 mos or so.He truly does it out of kindness.He says if he ever saw a bruised or battered kid there he'd "rat 'em out" in a hot minute.He says most of the kids are un-happy somehow and just kinda "killing time".
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Whooter, you really think we are that stupid and you are Oh, so smarrrrt. Most of those folks on that pretty brochure outside of academic teachers don't even work their full time, the mentors come and go often. Your wilderness program may have the storyteller or not and they may have the same staff or not. These jobs are notorious for turn over unless you are on the top where it pays. But you already knew this. I figured you would pick Swift. Nice try.
The children, Whooter.
Keep going Whooter, there are many more programs, not as pretty as Swift. You really have no morals at all.
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Whooter, you really think we are that stupid and you are Oh, so smarrrrt. Most of those folks on that pretty brochure outside of academic teachers don't even work their full time, the mentors come and go often. Your wilderness program may have the storyteller or not and they may have the same staff or not. These jobs are notorious for turn over unless you are on the top where it pays. But you already knew this. I figured you would pick Swift. Nice try.
The children, Whooter.
Keep going Whooter, there are many more programs, not as pretty as Swift. You really have no morals at all.
Here was you question again:
Whooter, please show us an example of a employee record/file of all employees (staff) and their qualifications/credentials. Use one of your Aspen favorites. I will guarantee you will not find the lower paid staff (who actually do most of the day to day functions) on your list, properly bio'd.
It is exactly what you asked for, Heretik. The list right down to the housekeepers. You can claim anything is fake if you like, but the ball is in your court. If you feel those people dont work there then you need to prove it. I think you are just a little pissed that I proved you wrong once again. Your perception of the industry is unrealistic at best. The facts always trip guys like you up.
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Whooter, stop trying to misdirect what you and I already know (maybe you don't know). Whooter are you trying to say all these clinical counselors work full time at Swift???? Mon-Fri/ 52 weeks out of the year except vacation time.
Amato, Jordana Clinical Counselor
Blackburn, Kathy Clinical Counselor
Curtis, Richard Clinical Counselor
Donahue, Elizabeth Clinical Counselor
Everson, Audrey Clinical Counselor
Nelson, Alix Clinical Counselor
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Whooter, stop trying to misdirect what you and I already know (maybe you don't know). Whooter are you trying to say all these clinical counselors work full time at Swift???? Mon-Fri/ 52 weeks out of the year except vacation time.
Amato, Jordana Clinical Counselor
Blackburn, Kathy Clinical Counselor
Curtis, Richard Clinical Counselor
Donahue, Elizabeth Clinical Counselor
Everson, Audrey Clinical Counselor
Nelson, Alix Clinical Counselor
Yes it is a snap shot of the employees whenever the last time the web site was updated. Maybe Kathy Blackburn left and was replaced with a new person for example, but this is a list of their staff. What did you think it was?
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Whooter, stop trying to misdirect what you and I already know (maybe you don't know). Whooter are you trying to say all these clinical counselors work full time at Swift???? Mon-Fri/ 52 weeks out of the year except vacation time.
Amato, Jordana Clinical Counselor
Blackburn, Kathy Clinical Counselor
Curtis, Richard Clinical Counselor
Donahue, Elizabeth Clinical Counselor
Everson, Audrey Clinical Counselor
Nelson, Alix Clinical Counselor
Yes it is a snap shot of the employees whenever the last time the web site was updated. Maybe Kathy Blackburn left and was replaced with a new person for example, but this is a list of their staff. What did you think it was?
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So according to you all (6) clinical counselors work full time at Swift.
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Whooter, stop trying to misdirect what you and I already know (maybe you don't know). Whooter are you trying to say all these clinical counselors work full time at Swift???? Mon-Fri/ 52 weeks out of the year except vacation time.
Amato, Jordana Clinical Counselor
Blackburn, Kathy Clinical Counselor
Curtis, Richard Clinical Counselor
Donahue, Elizabeth Clinical Counselor
Everson, Audrey Clinical Counselor
Nelson, Alix Clinical Counselor
Yes it is a snap shot of the employees whenever the last time the web site was updated. Maybe Kathy Blackburn left and was replaced with a new person for example, but this is a list of their staff. What did you think it was?
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So according to you all (6) clinical counselors work full time at Swift.
Yes, why not call them and ask if there website reflects their present employees. It is probably very close. If business drops off then they may reduce to 5 clinical counselors and then pick up another counselor when business picks up again.
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Whooter, stop trying to misdirect what you and I already know (maybe you don't know). Whooter are you trying to say all these clinical counselors work full time at Swift???? Mon-Fri/ 52 weeks out of the year except vacation time.
Amato, Jordana Clinical Counselor
Blackburn, Kathy Clinical Counselor
Curtis, Richard Clinical Counselor
Donahue, Elizabeth Clinical Counselor
Everson, Audrey Clinical Counselor
Nelson, Alix Clinical Counselor
Yes it is a snap shot of the employees whenever the last time the web site was updated. Maybe Kathy Blackburn left and was replaced with a new person for example, but this is a list of their staff. What did you think it was?
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So according to you all (6) clinical counselors work full time at Swift.
Yes, why not call them and ask if there website reflects their present employees. It is probably very close. If business drops off then they may reduce to 5 clinical counselors and then pick up another counselor when business picks up again.
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I already have done this, as a matter of fact I already knew the answer before this conversation even started. I just wanted to know what you knew. Whooter as I have always said you are a fool waltzing around here, playing games.
The children, Whooter.
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I already have done this, as a matter of fact I already knew the answer before this conversation even started. I just wanted to know what you knew. Whooter as I have always said you are a fool waltzing around here, playing games.
The children, Whooter.
Sure, Heretik, I think we all believe that ASR told you that their web site was wrong. You made a fool of yourself. I showed you both websites, if you want to believe they are fake then that is your prerogative, but until you bring some proof to the table we need to stick with the verifiable facts. I am sorry you got egg on your face, Heretik, but you asked for me to show you a staff list and I provided two. One for residential treatment and one for wilderness.
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I already have done this, as a matter of fact I already knew the answer before this conversation even started. I just wanted to know what you knew. Whooter as I have always said you are a fool waltzing around here, playing games.
The children, Whooter.
Sure, Heretik, I think we all believe that ASR told you that their web site was wrong. You made a fool of yourself. I showed you both websites, if you want to believe they are fake then that is your prerogative, but until you bring some proof to the table we need to stick with the verifiable facts. I am sorry you got egg on your face, Heretik, but you asked for me to show you a staff list and I provided two. One for residential treatment and one for wilderness.
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You still have not answered my question, my only question. Do the 6 counselors work there full time. Zero in on the question, big guy. It seems you do not know. Which is OK. Which would then lead to believe that anybody can post a brochure. But people that know the industry post the details.
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I already have done this, as a matter of fact I already knew the answer before this conversation even started. I just wanted to know what you knew. Whooter as I have always said you are a fool waltzing around here, playing games.
The children, Whooter.
Sure, Heretik, I think we all believe that ASR told you that their web site was wrong. You made a fool of yourself. I showed you both websites, if you want to believe they are fake then that is your prerogative, but until you bring some proof to the table we need to stick with the verifiable facts. I am sorry you got egg on your face, Heretik, but you asked for me to show you a staff list and I provided two. One for residential treatment and one for wilderness.
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You still have not answered my question, my only question. Do the 6 counselors work there full time. Zero in on the question, big guy. It seems you do not know. Which is OK. Which would then lead to believe that anybody can post a brochure. But people that know the industry post the details.
I did answer you a few posts back. My answer was "Yes" they do. If they have more kids come in then maybe the number of counselors will jump to 7 if they need the added support. I agree with you that anybody can post a brochure, but this one was posted by ASR and it reflects their staff at the time of the web site update.
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I already have done this, as a matter of fact I already knew the answer before this conversation even started. I just wanted to know what you knew. Whooter as I have always said you are a fool waltzing around here, playing games.
The children, Whooter.
Sure, Heretik, I think we all believe that ASR told you that their web site was wrong. You made a fool of yourself. I showed you both websites, if you want to believe they are fake then that is your prerogative, but until you bring some proof to the table we need to stick with the verifiable facts. I am sorry you got egg on your face, Heretik, but you asked for me to show you a staff list and I provided two. One for residential treatment and one for wilderness.
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You still have not answered my question, my only question. Do the 6 counselors work there full time. Zero in on the question, big guy. It seems you do not know. Which is OK. Which would then lead to believe that anybody can post a brochure. But people that know the industry post the details.
I did answer you a few posts back. My answer was "Yes" they do. If they have more kids come in then maybe the number of counselors will jump to 7 if they need the added support. I agree with you that anybody can post a brochure, but this one was posted by ASR and it reflects their staff at the time of the web site update.
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I was lead to believe that the counselors were more on a consulting bases. Yes they did have certain students to deal with but they also worked elsewhere other then Swift. They had there own practice or counseling sessions aside from Swift. That they only gave Swift so many hours a week.
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I was lead to believe that the counselors were more on a consulting bases. Yes they did have certain students to deal with but they also worked elsewhere other then Swift. They had there own practice or counseling sessions aside from Swift. That they only gave Swift so many hours a week.
When my daughter was there they had licensed therapists who were not on staff with the school come in to handle the individual therapy, they had their own private practice and not all the kids had individual therapy at that time (only if the parents opted for it) and the therapists would invoice the parents and were paid directly by the parents not through the school. These therapists would communicate with the childs therapist at home in an effort to work together and communicate progress. These therapists were never listed on ASR's web site , as I remember, because they were not employees of Aspen.
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When in doubt I like to go back to the original statements. Here's Whooter's original statement that says the MAJORITY of wilderness programs have MULTIPLE BOARD CERTIFIED COUNSELORS and that the people who work directly with the kids are LICENSED.
Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors.
Since Whooter made this claim he was able to provide one single program with one single board certified counselor who appears not be be licensed in any way and did not show that there were any licensed providers with the kids in the field, as he originally claimed.
So we can all agree that if Whooter actually had any evidence to support his assertion above he would have posted that. It's clear he does not and that's why he has changed the subject and purposely derailed the thread with off-topic nonsense.
This claim by Whooter can officially be declared utterly false until such a time that Whooter can provide evidence that more than half of all wilderness programs employ more than one board certified counselor and that all people working in the field with the kids are licensed providers.
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Lets take another look:
Residential Program Example:
click “Faculty & staff Bio’s”
Link (http://http://www.swiftriver.com/about/staff.htm)
Even the guy who drives the van is listed.
Wilderness Program Example:
Link (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/staff.html)
Click at the bottom for "complete staff list"
Even the housekeeper is listed!
I have never, ever seen a single "Board Certified Counselor" and here you're claiming most wilderness programs have them backing up "licensed personnel"? I call bullshit.
Read it and weep, DJ:
Link (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/staff.html)
Leah is a Certified Counselor with the National Board of Certified Counselors, has a Masters of Science Degree in Community Counseling,
Well what do ya know...."Board Certified Counselors"
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When in doubt I like to go back to the original statements. Here's Whooter's original statement that says the MAJORITY of wilderness programs have MULTIPLE BOARD CERTIFIED COUNSELORS and that the people who work directly with the kids are LICENSED.
Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors.
Since Whooter made this claim he was able to provide one single program with one single board certified counselor who appears not be be licensed in any way and did not show that there were any licensed providers with the kids in the field, as he originally claimed.
So we can all agree that if Whooter actually had any evidence to support his assertion above he would have posted that. It's clear he does not and that's why he has changed the subject and purposely derailed the thread with off-topic nonsense.
This claim by Whooter can officially be declared utterly false until such a time that Whooter can provide evidence that more than half of all wilderness programs employ more than one board certified counselor and that all people working in the field with the kids are licensed providers.
I'll take Whooter's last post as an admission that he has no evidence of his claims. We can wait for him to give us a rundown on the staffs of the rest of the wilderness programs operating in the US.
If Whooter wants us to believe that if one single program has one single certified counselor that it means "most wilderness programs have multiple board certified counselors" then we ought to be able to conlcude that if one wilderness program kills one kid that the majority of wilderness programs kill multiple kids. See the obvious fallacy in Whooter's intentionally misleading posts?
We'll wait for Whooter to show evidence of his claims, but until then we can all agree that he just made up those claims from thin air. when he stops trying to wiggle out of it and back pedal he will either have the evidence or will have been shown to be lying again, which would be no real surprise.
No offense, Whooter, but we can't take your word for it, based on your past lies and deceptions.
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No offense, Whooter, but we can't take your word for it.....
No offense taken, DJ, I understand your dilemma. I believe we should all provide links to back up what we state and that we should not take everyones' post at face value. I think we can both agree on this point. You had indicated in a previous post that you never saw a program which had a board certified counselor. The first one that I pulled up had a board certified Counselor on staff. Which I presented here:
Link (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/staff.html)
Leah is a Certified Counselor with the National Board of Certified Counselors, has a Masters of Science Degree in Community Counseling......
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I have never, ever seen a single "Board Certified Counselor" and here you're claiming most wilderness programs have them backing up "licensed personnel"? I call bullshit.
Link 1 (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/staff.html)
Leah is a Certified Counselor with the National Board of Certified Counselors, has a Masters of Science Degree in Community Counseling,
I looked at a few more wilderness Programs and they had board certified Counselors also. Lets take a look:
Link 2 (http://http://www.stonemountainschool.com/staff.html) Stone Mountain
Mark is a Nationally Certified Counselor through the National Board of Certified Counselors and is a Licensed Professional Counselor in the state of North Carolina.
Link 3 (http://http://www.wildernesstherapy.org/Articles/NaropaSymposium.htm)
and was accredited by the National Board of Certified Counselors (NBCC)
Link 4 (http://http://www.bouldercreekacademy.net/about/therapists.shtml)
Tatum Miller, LCPC
She is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor (LCPC) and Board Certified
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When in doubt I like to go back to the original statements. Here's Whooter's original statement that says the MAJORITY of wilderness programs have MULTIPLE BOARD CERTIFIED COUNSELORS and that the people who work directly with the kids are LICENSED.
Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors.
Since Whooter made this claim he was able to provide one single program with one single board certified counselor who appears not be be licensed in any way and did not show that there were any licensed providers with the kids in the field, as he originally claimed.
So we can all agree that if Whooter actually had any evidence to support his assertion above he would have posted that. It's clear he does not and that's why he has changed the subject and purposely derailed the thread with off-topic nonsense.
This claim by Whooter can officially be declared utterly false until such a time that Whooter can provide evidence that more than half of all wilderness programs employ more than one board certified counselor and that all people working in the field with the kids are licensed providers.
I'll take Whooter's last post as an admission that he has no evidence of his claims. We can wait for him to give us a rundown on the staffs of the rest of the wilderness programs operating in the US.
If Whooter wants us to believe that if one single program has one single certified counselor that it means "most wilderness programs have multiple board certified counselors" then we ought to be able to conlcude that if one wilderness program kills one kid that the majority of wilderness programs kill multiple kids. See the obvious fallacy in Whooter's intentionally misleading posts?
We'll wait for Whooter to show evidence of his claims, but until then we can all agree that he just made up those claims from thin air. when he stops trying to wiggle out of it and back pedal he will either have the evidence or will have been shown to be lying again, which would be no real surprise.
No offense, Whooter, but we can't take your word for it, based on your past lies and deceptions.
When in doubt, we just go back to the original quote. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that there are about 200 wilderness programs or programs with a wilderness component operating in the US. If Whooter's claims are true, he should be able to provide at least 101 examples to back up his claim.
I also noticed that Whooter only showed one single board certified counselor for each program he listed, but his claim was "board certified counselorS" as in "more than one per program" so I would need to see at least two for every program over the span of 101 programs to believe it. Cherry-picking 2 programs that have a single certified counselor doesn't fit the bill. Also we would need to see that there are "licensed professionalS" (plural) who are with the kids in the field every day as Whooter also claimed earlier.
I think we can see that the truth has been stretched so far that it broke in this case, but I will be patient and wait for Whooter to provide his evidence that "most programs" have "multiple board certified counselors" and that the "field personnel are licensed providers" or drop the claim.
This is why readers have to be careful and parse the claims made by people who gain financially from the TTI. They will say anything to promote their programs.
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I think we have beaten the Board Certified question within wilderness programs to death. Lets take a look at Residential Programs and what they provide for trained professionals.
Here is a program Team Model:
* Clinical Director
* Students assigned a master's level counselor who heads a team
* Individual Counseling 1x/week
* Group Counseling 3x/week
* Team Groups, Themed Groups (Mood Management, Adoption, Loss, Eating Disorders, Relapse Prevention)
We should investigate the types of people they hire to support this model that they market to the parents.
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So now you admit that of all wilderness programs in the US, there are only two certified counselors. I knew we would come to this point at some time. You made up a big, phony lie and now are stuck with the inability to prove it so the back pedal is in effect. Nice try, but you failed again, Whooter. The facts always catch you with your pants down, don't they?
Readers should understand that Whooter is almost always caught lying like this and attempts to wiggle free from his lies by changing the subject.
Whooter now admits he lied in his OP.
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This is what I was responding to, DJ. I am not attacking you or calling you a liar. I am just clearing up a misunderstanding on your part. Maybe not all wilderness programs have board Certified counselors and maybe I was incorrect when I stated that I thought most of the wilderness programs had them. We would have to review them all to know for sure. but we can all agree that some do and this is a big step if you look at programs from 20, 30 years ago.
I have never, ever seen a single "Board Certified Counselor" and here you're claiming most wilderness programs have them backing up "licensed personnel"? I call bullshit.
Link 1 (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/staff.html)
Leah is a Certified Counselor with the National Board of Certified Counselors, has a Masters of Science Degree in Community Counseling,
I looked at a few more wilderness Programs and they had board certified Counselors also. Lets take a look:
Link 2 (http://http://www.stonemountainschool.com/staff.html) Stone Mountain
Mark is a Nationally Certified Counselor through the National Board of Certified Counselors and is a Licensed Professional Counselor in the state of North Carolina.
Link 3 (http://http://www.wildernesstherapy.org/Articles/NaropaSymposium.htm)
and was accredited by the National Board of Certified Counselors (NBCC)
Link 4 (http://http://www.bouldercreekacademy.net/about/therapists.shtml)
Tatum Miller, LCPC
She is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor (LCPC) and Board Certified
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I know what you're responding to, but it is not what you claimed earlier. Here, re-read your claims from before and either provide the evidence or admit you lied again. Changing the subject doesn't help readers evaluate your truthfulness.
I saw your response the first five times you posted it and I am still asking you to respond to what you claimed, which you are strictly avoiding because you know you told another big, fat whopper of a lie. Just prove your claim or admit you lied. Then we can move on to whatever else you want to discuss, but not until you prove your claims or admit you lied. We can wait. I'll remind you as often as needed to keep you on track.
When in doubt I like to go back to the original statements. Here's Whooter's original statement that says the MAJORITY of wilderness programs have MULTIPLE BOARD CERTIFIED COUNSELORS and that the people who work directly with the kids are LICENSED.
Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors.
Since Whooter made this claim he was able to provide one single program with one single board certified counselor who appears not be be licensed in any way and did not show that there were any licensed providers with the kids in the field, as he originally claimed.
So we can all agree that if Whooter actually had any evidence to support his assertion above he would have posted that. It's clear he does not and that's why he has changed the subject and purposely derailed the thread with off-topic nonsense.
This claim by Whooter can officially be declared utterly false until such a time that Whooter can provide evidence that more than half of all wilderness programs employ more than one board certified counselor and that all people working in the field with the kids are licensed providers.
I'll take Whooter's last post as an admission that he has no evidence of his claims. We can wait for him to give us a rundown on the staffs of the rest of the wilderness programs operating in the US.
If Whooter wants us to believe that if one single program has one single certified counselor that it means "most wilderness programs have multiple board certified counselors" then we ought to be able to conlcude that if one wilderness program kills one kid that the majority of wilderness programs kill multiple kids. See the obvious fallacy in Whooter's intentionally misleading posts?
We'll wait for Whooter to show evidence of his claims, but until then we can all agree that he just made up those claims from thin air. when he stops trying to wiggle out of it and back pedal he will either have the evidence or will have been shown to be lying again, which would be no real surprise.
No offense, Whooter, but we can't take your word for it, based on your past lies and deceptions.
I stated that I thought most of the wilderness programs had them.
Uh, no you didn't. You stated as a fact that MOST have more than one certified counselor and that most also have licensed staff with the kids. Now you're trying to revise your statement since you were nabbed fabricating yet again. It's called "back pedaling" or "walking it back,"Whooter. It's what people do when they're caught in a provable lie, like you were.
When in doubt, just go back to the original quote. Either prove it or admit you just made it up. It's not that big of a deal to admit you lied. It's not like anyone would be surprised or anything.
Good thing you're not in court now, like you were for your many admitted criminal offenses, because you'd be charged with perjury for sure!
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I know what you're responding to, but it is not what you claimed earlier. Here, re-read your claims from before and either provide the evidence or admit you lied again. Changing the subject doesn't help readers evaluate your truthfulness.
I saw your response the first five times you posted it and I am still asking you to respond to what you claimed, which you are strictly avoiding because you know you told another big, fat whopper of a lie. Just prove your claim or admit you lied. Then we can move on to whatever else you want to discuss, but not until you prove your claims or admit you lied. We can wait. I'll remind you as often as needed to keep you on track.
When in doubt I like to go back to the original statements. Here's Whooter's original statement that says the MAJORITY of wilderness programs have MULTIPLE BOARD CERTIFIED COUNSELORS and that the people who work directly with the kids are LICENSED.
Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors.
From my experience I have seen that most wilderness programs have Board Certified Counselors on staff to support the program. I may be wrong here, DJ, I admit this. We cannot know for sure unless we look at all the programs. I reviewed several wilderness programs and the ones I looked at had certified counselors on staff.
If you interpreted my statement as saying each program had more than one board certified counselor this is not what I meant not my intent. I used Wilderness Programs as a plural and Board Certified Counselors as a plural meaning there are many counselors covering many programs. I hope that clears it up.
You had indicated that you never heard of one wilderness program having board certified counselors and I provided several for you to review.
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No, nobody "interpreted" anything. You stated it as a fact and got caught lying again. You made a statement and it was proven false. This is called "lying" and you are very familiar with the subject ; )
We have now come full circle and Whooter has admitted he told another whopper. I guess that's progress, but it would be nice if he would just stop lying and then we wouldn't have to go through this every time he makes a claim. He would cite some facts and be accurate if he cared about the truth. But what he really cares about is his financial ties to Aspen, so he lies to promote them. It's a shame, but we have to parse everything he writes and demand documentation based on his long history of fabricating.
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No, nobody "interpreted" anything. You stated it as a fact and got caught lying again. You made a statement and it was proven false. This is called "lying" and you are very familiar with the subject ; )
We have now come full circle and Whooter has admitted he told another whopper. I guess that's progress, but it would be nice if he would just stop lying and then we wouldn't have to go through this every time he makes a claim. He would cite some facts and be accurate if he cared about the truth. But what he really cares about is his financial ties to Aspen, so he lies to promote them. It's a shame, but we have to parse everything he writes and demand documentation based on his long history of fabricating.
I apologize for the confusion, DJ. I tried to explain my reasoning above and what I meant. If you interpret this as lying on my part then that is okay. Each person can interpret for themselves.
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I think we have beaten the Board Certified question within wilderness programs to death. Lets take a look at Residential Programs and what they provide for trained professionals.
Here is a program Team Model:
* Clinical Director
* Students assigned a master's level counselor who heads a team
* Individual Counseling 1x/week
* Group Counseling 3x/week
* Team Groups, Themed Groups (Mood Management, Adoption, Loss, Eating Disorders, Relapse Prevention)
We should investigate the types of people they hire to support this model that they market to the parents.
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Good. So now we have gotten to the truth after so many post on so many pages. Whooter now admits he just made up his claims and that no evidence bears them out. It took a while, but now we can all see that Whooter's claims were false and he now admits they are false.
That wasn't so hard now, was it? Honesty is the best policy, but we need to examine the claims of people tied financially to tht TTI very carefully. They are not honest brokers, as we have demonstrated yet again.
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I added Counselors and Teachers to the list as shown below:
Here is a program Team Model:
* Clinical Director
* Students assigned a master's level counselor who heads a team
* Individual Counseling 1x/week
* Group Counseling 3x/week
* Team Groups, Themed Groups (Mood Management, Adoption, Loss, Eating Disorders, Relapse Prevention)
Master's Level, CADAC Substance Abuse Counselor:
* Administers the SASSI to all students
* Substance Abuse Education Groups 1x/week
* Individual Substance Abuse Counseling
* AA & NA meetings both on and off campus
* Relapse Prevention Groups
Educational Support:
* 11 teachers
* Organizational Coach
We should investigate the types of people they hire to support this model that they market to the parents.
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I was lead to believe that the counselors were more on a consulting bases. Yes they did have certain students to deal with but they also worked elsewhere other then Swift. They had there own practice or counseling sessions aside from Swift. That they only gave Swift so many hours a week.
When my daughter was there they had licensed therapists who were not on staff with the school come in to handle the individual therapy, they had their own private practice and not all the kids had individual therapy at that time (only if the parents opted for it) and the therapists would invoice the parents and were paid directly by the parents not through the school. These therapists would communicate with the childs therapist at home in an effort to work together and communicate progress. These therapists were never listed on ASR's web site , as I remember, because they were not employees of Aspen.
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Swift brochure does not say or infer that the counselors work there full-time or not. This is something only folks with "a need to know" know. The brochure that was produced and looked at by you prior to sending your daughter there probably said the same thing. Only after you got to know the situation did you understand the working arrangement with the counselor your daughter was assigned to.
What makes you so sure they changed.
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I was lead to believe that the counselors were more on a consulting bases. Yes they did have certain students to deal with but they also worked elsewhere other then Swift. They had there own practice or counseling sessions aside from Swift. That they only gave Swift so many hours a week.
When my daughter was there they had licensed therapists who were not on staff with the school come in to handle the individual therapy, they had their own private practice and not all the kids had individual therapy at that time (only if the parents opted for it) and the therapists would invoice the parents and were paid directly by the parents not through the school. These therapists would communicate with the childs therapist at home in an effort to work together and communicate progress. These therapists were never listed on ASR's web site , as I remember, because they were not employees of Aspen.
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Swift brochure does not say or infer that the counselors work there full-time or not. This is something only folks with "a need to know" know. The brochure that was produced and looked at by you prior to sending your daughter there probably said the same thing. Only after you got to know the situation did you understand the working arrangement with the counselor your daughter was assigned to.
What makes you so sure they changed.
I wouldn't expect them to document how many hours each person works. I sat with admissions and went over all the interactions my daughter would have and with whom. I was introduced to the staff, although I did not meet my daughters individual therapist until my first visit but I did speak to her over the phone prior to that to receive updates. My daughter approved the communication on a week by week basis and she also communicated with my daughters therapist at home who she was seeing prior to her placement.
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What makes you so sure they changed.
I am not sure exactly what has changed since that time.
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As a recap, I think we have established that wilderness programs hire board Certified Counselors.
I have never, ever seen a single "Board Certified Counselor" and here you're claiming most wilderness programs have them backing up "licensed personnel"? I call bullshit.
Link 1 (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/staff.html)
Leah is a Certified Counselor with the National Board of Certified Counselors, has a Masters of Science Degree in Community Counseling,
I looked at a few more wilderness Programs and they had board certified Counselors also. Lets take a look:
Link 2 (http://http://www.stonemountainschool.com/staff.html) Stone Mountain
Mark is a Nationally Certified Counselor through the National Board of Certified Counselors and is a Licensed Professional Counselor in the state of North Carolina.
Link 3 (http://http://www.wildernesstherapy.org/Articles/NaropaSymposium.htm)
and was accredited by the National Board of Certified Counselors (NBCC)
Link 4 (http://http://www.bouldercreekacademy.net/about/therapists.shtml)
Tatum Miller, LCPC
She is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor (LCPC) and Board Certified
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UMMMM.....Lemme see 1.cause they work cheap
2. cause they'll buy in,drink the cool-aid ,and not know any better.
3. they cant be held accountable to any certifications or licences.
Does that about cover it? :nods:
seamus wins the prize!
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The prize, lol
An example of some of the qualifications for program staff:
Clinical Team Link (http://http://www.swiftriver.com/about/staff.htm)
Amato, Jordana Clinical Counselor ……..Master, LICSW
Blackburn, Kathy Clinical Counselor….. MSW in Clinical Social Work from Smith College
Curtis, Richard Clinical Counselor ………….. MA in Counseling Psychology
Donahue, Elizabeth Clinical Counselor……………. Masters of Social Work from Smith College
Everson, Audrey Clinical Counselor …………. two master’s degrees in Counseling/Psyhology, M.A., M.Ed.
Nelson, Alix Clinical Counselor ………….. Masters Degree in Counseling
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UMMMM.....Lemme see 1.cause they work cheap
2. cause they'll buy in,drink the cool-aid ,and not know any better.
3. they cant be held accountable to any certifications or licences.
Does that about cover it? :nods:
seamus wins the prize!
:deal: I'm going to say seamus has it right.
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These are the teachers they have on staff. I will pull together their qualifications for us to look at.
Ballou-Baldwin, Martha Administrative Assistant
Gutermuth, Brittany Teacher
Jasinski, Chris Teacher
LaForest, Jennifer Teacher
Lyons, Judith Learning Specialist
Misener, Melinda Teacher
Tripler, Charles Teacher
Wallender, John Teacher
Wilcox, Dennis Academic Registrar/Scheduler
Williams, Greg Teacher
Winston, Jeff Teacher
...
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Note:
when a program representative says: "we've changed" or "we don't do that anymore".
he/she really means "we're calling it something else, but it's pretty much the exact same thing."
I have no doubt that programs today are hiring people with records, or at the very least with very little qualification. WWASP being a good example. There are countless others, including "reputable" programs, who have been caught employing under-qualified personnel.
Aspen Ed is another one.
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These are the teachers they have on staff.
Ballou-Baldwin, Martha Administrative Assistant .... Licensed Practical Nurse
Gutermuth, Brittany Teacher......BA in Environmental Studies
Jasinski, Chris Teacher....... BA in Linguistics and Minor in French
LaForest, Jennifer Teacher .........Bachelor of Arts degree in Chemistry & Philosophy
Lyons, Judith Learning Specialist .......Masters in Education from Fitchburg State.
Misener, Melinda Teacher .......degree in Comparative Literature.
Tripler, Charles Teacher ......no info
Wallender, John Teacher ...... bachelor’s from State University of New York,
Wilcox, Dennis Academic Registrar/Scheduler .......majored in Mathematics
Williams, Greg Teacher ....BA in Biology from the Univ of Penn.
Winston, Jeff Teacher ..... Temple University with a degree in Communications.
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I think they can hire that people at a very low cost.Usually relatively low educated people can be hired at very low cost.It might be the reason for this.
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I think they can hire that people at a very low cost.Usually relatively low educated people can be hired at very low cost.It might be the reason for this.
Its a good point, Alvasin, It always comes down to cost. Look at your local public school, the school system does not hire all PhD's in fact most of the teachers are not that highly educated themselves. If the people in the town thought they wanted PhDs to teach there children they would raise taxes and pay the higher salaries. Same with programs, they hire what the customers want. Many of the kids entering these programs dropped out of school anyway so just getting their butts in a classroom is a big step lol.
But that aside, it is good to see these programs are getting themselves licensed and accredited to the point where they can hand out diplomas.
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I think they can hire that people at a very low cost.Usually relatively low educated people can be hired at very low cost.It might be the reason for this.
From what I have seen this is true, Alvasin. Program line staff are typically minimum wage, uneducated and inexperienced.
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I think they can hire that people at a very low cost.Usually relatively low educated people can be hired at very low cost.It might be the reason for this.
Its a good point, Alvasin, It always comes down to cost. Look at your local public school, the school system does not hire all PhD's in fact most of the teachers are not that highly educated themselves. If the people in the town thought they wanted PhDs to teach there children they would raise taxes and pay the higher salaries. Same with programs, they hire what the customers want. Many of the kids entering these programs dropped out of school anyway so just getting their butts in a classroom is a big step lol.
But that aside, it is good to see these programs are getting themselves licensed and accredited to the point where they can hand out diplomas.
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Insane!!!!! You will talk even if what comes out of your mouthy is totally without merit. That is what I meant by my characterization of your type of research being nothing more the a conversation with your buddies outside at the barbecue before Sunday's football games.
School teachers at the very least have to have a Bachelors Degree and they need to have taken classes throughout the year to build credits to fulfill their accreditation. This is all well documented within the school administration.
You just recklessly react around here to comments and because you have a flair with speech you confuse this ability with actual credibility. No!!! Whooter, just because you can write does not mean you actually know what you are talking about. I know!!! Amazing!!!!!, Most people with your abilities are not wasting them away trying to bullshit others. What you have accomplished around here is to show everyone that you are a "fool". I wonder if this behavior is synonymous with your life in general. You don't care whether Aspen hires educated staff to handle the kids or not. You have shown over and over that the children are secondary (maybe not at all) to your agenda/ego here.
I know you disagree with this assessment of your interactions around here. Well guess what, you are not being singled out or being demonized by the masses. You are being highlighted and most of the time people have gone out of their way to try and teach you something yet it fails every time. You have it all figured out.
Well for someone that has it all figured out, how did you end up all by yourself. Please don't tell me your the "Mother Theresa" and Fornits is your Calcutta.
Your David and Fornits is the Goliath ect.....Please.
Martyr....yeah that's it. Your behavior here is your martyrdom.
Or.....just another way for a someone to entertain themselves.
The children, Whooter.
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I think they can hire that people at a very low cost.Usually relatively low educated people can be hired at very low cost.It might be the reason for this.
Its a good point, Alvasin, It always comes down to cost. Look at your local public school, the school system does not hire all PhD's in fact most of the teachers are not that highly educated themselves. If the people in the town thought they wanted PhDs to teach there children they would raise taxes and pay the higher salaries. Same with programs, they hire what the customers want. Many of the kids entering these programs dropped out of school anyway so just getting their butts in a classroom is a big step lol.
But that aside, it is good to see these programs are getting themselves licensed and accredited to the point where they can hand out diplomas.
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School teachers at the very least have to have a Bachelors Degree and they need to have taken classes throughout the year to build credits to fulfill their accreditation. This is all well documented within the school administration.
I think you mis understood my post. Let me pull out your fit and focus on the discussion at hand. So we agree that if we look at our local public school system they are not all educated to the PhD level. Like Heretik says the teachers are bachelor level and some, in my experience, are masters level. So we are on the same page here, Heretik. Many of the programs are becoming accredited with the state they are in and are even able to hand out diplomas. Many other schools, if they are too small, partner with the local school system to keep the children educated.
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Heretik, here is a program teacher staff list:
These are the teachers they have on staff.
Ballou-Baldwin, Martha Administrative Assistant .... Licensed Practical Nurse
Gutermuth, Brittany Teacher......BA in Environmental Studies
Jasinski, Chris Teacher....... BA in Linguistics and Minor in French
LaForest, Jennifer Teacher .........Bachelor of Arts degree in Chemistry & Philosophy
Lyons, Judith Learning Specialist .......Masters in Education from Fitchburg State.
Misener, Melinda Teacher .......degree in Comparative Literature.
Tripler, Charles Teacher ......no info
Wallender, John Teacher ...... bachelor’s from State University of New York,
Wilcox, Dennis Academic Registrar/Scheduler .......majored in Mathematics
Williams, Greg Teacher ....BA in Biology from the Univ of Penn.
Winston, Jeff Teacher ..... Temple University with a degree in Communications.
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No link to an updated source = not believable. I can't accept Whooter's word for it. He lies too much.
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No link to an updated source = not believable. I can't accept Whooter's word for it. He lies too much.
Link (http://http://www.swiftriver.com/about/staff.htm)
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Any independent verification? Youhave said many times when trying to explain why ASR didn't have any licensed teachers that it was just "the website isn't up to date."
We'll have to see some credible evidence, Whooter.
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Accreditation
CITA (Commission on International and Trans-Regional Accreditation)
Approved as a private school by the Mohawk Trail Regional School Committee in compliance with Massachusetts Chapter 71 Section 1
SEVIS-approved and qualified to accept international students
Link (http://http://www.swiftriver.com/)
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Still no proof I see. We can wait until the website is updated I guess. Let us know.
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Still no proof I see. We can wait until the website is updated I guess. Let us know.
Waiting is always a good option. Patience is a virtue.
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UMMMM.....Lemme see 1.cause they work cheap
2. cause they'll buy in,drink the cool-aid ,and not know any better.
3. they cant be held accountable to any certifications or licences.
Does that about cover it? :nods:
So we have come full circle, seamus. Your answer is still the best one.
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Here is a program teacher staff list:
These are the teachers that ASR have on staff.
Ballou-Baldwin, Martha Administrative Assistant .... Licensed Practical Nurse
Gutermuth, Brittany Teacher......BA in Environmental Studies
Jasinski, Chris Teacher....... BA in Linguistics and Minor in French
LaForest, Jennifer Teacher .........Bachelor of Arts degree in Chemistry & Philosophy
Lyons, Judith Learning Specialist .......Masters in Education from Fitchburg State.
Misener, Melinda Teacher .......degree in Comparative Literature.
Tripler, Charles Teacher ......no info
Wallender, John Teacher ...... bachelor’s from State University of New York,
Wilcox, Dennis Academic Registrar/Scheduler .......majored in Mathematics
Williams, Greg Teacher ....BA in Biology from the Univ of Penn.
Winston, Jeff Teacher ..... Temple University with a degree in Communications.
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Ive come to this pretty late. Whooter having a general degree is not enough for working directly with kids who can have complex problems. I got hired and I had a commerce degree with a marketing minor. But I was expected to help run group therapy sessions that were sometimes really emotionally intense. I had not even worked in my field yet. It is not like working at summer camp. You have to deal with situations that require real knowledge and a sophisticated level of expert skill. Lots of these kids are still young and if their issues are dealt with in expertly it can lead to making the problem a lot worse. I really did not know what to do when kids would tell the group that they had been sexually abused.
i should add that the guy who i had to work most closely with did not have any degree. He was straight from the army. The way he acted toward the kids did not calm them it actually sometimes provoked a more angry reaction. One time he used what they called a pain compliance technique that basically involved giving the kid chinese burns. I don't even remember what the kid was being difficult about.
it was meant to make the kid quickly compliant but it lasted for like 20 minutes. This kid got more angry and ended up being asked to leave because he eventually took a swing at the guy. He was in for taking drugs like dope and had no prior history of violence. He had always been pretty mellow for most staff. He wasn't even a smart ass.
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Ive come to this pretty late. Whooter having a general degree is not enough for working directly with kids who can have complex problems. I got hired and I had a commerce degree with a marketing minor. But I was expected to help run group therapy sessions that were sometimes really emotionally intense. I had not even worked in my field yet. It is not like working at summer camp. You have to deal with situations that require real knowledge and a sophisticated level of expert skill. Lots of these kids are still young and if their issues are dealt with in expertly it can lead to making the problem a lot worse. I really did not know what to do when kids would tell the group that they had been sexually abused.
i should add that the guy who i had to work most closely with did not have any degree. He was straight from the army. The way he acted toward the kids did not calm them it actually sometimes provoked a more angry reaction. One time he used what they called a pain compliance technique that basically involved giving the kid chinese burns. I don't even remember what the kid was being difficult about.
it was meant to make the kid quickly compliant but it lasted for like 20 minutes. This kid got more angry and ended up being asked to leave because he eventually took a swing at the guy. He was in for taking drugs like dope and had no prior history of violence. He had always been pretty mellow for most staff. He wasn't even a smart ass.
9403390, When my daughter attended they had a masters level licensed counselor who was assigned to each peer group (as they were called then) and she also saw a independent therapist who was not paid by the school. Do they still do this? They had a guy from the army but he was in the wilderness piece and was pretty tough on the kids and was expected to get them in shape for main campus.
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I worked in wilderness for aspen not the main school but nevertheless whether it is wilderness or a school my point is the same. If anything wilderness is even more stressful for all concerned so just employing some army guy or someone with a commerce degree to work with the kids often without any qualified supervision is worse. It concerned me that all the guys on your list taught but none had education degrees or diplomas. If I had a regular kid at a normal school i would want all the teachers to have the right qualifications. With the added issues that kids with various mental health issues have it seems to me twice as important that they are at least getting qualified teachers.
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I worked in wilderness for aspen not the main school but nevertheless whether it is wilderness or a school my point is the same. If anything wilderness is even more stressful for all concerned so just employing some army guy or someone with a commerce degree to work with the kids often without any qualified supervision is worse. It concerned me that all the guys on your list taught but none had education degrees or diplomas. If I had a regular kid at a normal school i would want all the teachers to have the right qualifications. With the added issues that kids with various mental health issues have it seems to me twice as important that they are at least getting qualified teachers.
9403390, I didnt include their complete bios. Some had previous experience teaching and/ or teaching degrees I went through their bios quickly and posted their degrees to show that these programs hire people with an education (contrary to what the thread topic says). I believe a few had masters degrees on top of the BAs that I posted.
But you also need to keep in mind that many of these kids dropped out of school and to get them into the classroom with dedicated teachers and open their books , get them back on track academically and study is a huge step. They have a huge success rate of kids moving onto the college of their choice after graduation. So academically they have been very successful.
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But you also need to keep in mind that many of these kids dropped out of school and to get them into the classroom with dedicated teachers and open their books , get them back on track academically and study is a huge step.
That's, almost word for word, what Newton said in his deposition regarding Lulu Corter. Well, they weren't in school anyway so it's just fine to treat them like animals! (Obviously paraphrasing that last part but the underlined part is exactly what he said.
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Back to original question asked by the gatekeeper
" Why does Aspen hire people with no education"?
The same reason the Jack Eckerd torture camp hired you!
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But you also need to keep in mind that many of these kids dropped out of school and to get them into the classroom with dedicated teachers and open their books , get them back on track academically and study is a huge step.
That's, almost word for word, what Newton said in his deposition regarding Lulu Corter. Well, they weren't in school anyway so it's just fine to treat them like animals! (Obviously paraphrasing that last part but the underlined part is exactly what he said.
this is actually a good point ann. When I first signed on I actually questioned whether misbehavior should be rewarded with an outward bound type of trip whne all the other kids were stuck in the classroom. I didnt imagine that kids would be out of school for months at a time (In the case of wilderness) I did outward bound at home where it was pretty much an outdoor ed thing with all the guys at my school and it was great fun. Id heard about the cops also taking at risk kids on outward bound trips for a weekend or maybe up to about a fortnight and thought it was something like that. Year later when I read about that Aaron Bacon kid I saw that his mum expressed similar scepticsm about taking the kid out of school go camping and then obviously reading the rest of the story and just feeling terrible for her. Was lulu corter the kid who spent like ten years in a rehab?
I accept that some kids who are in trouble are skipping school a lot but it makes no logical sense to tell them that on one hand their education is important enough that they have to go to a boarding school that they dont want to go to but on the other hand to employ teachers that are not properly qualified. A lot of kids who are kind of wild at school actually have learning issues. Part of the reason for the bad behavior is because they feel embarrased to admit they are having trouble. Id imagine that teaching kids like this would be difficult and would take a pretty high level of expertese. All the more reason to employ high quality professionals
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But you also need to keep in mind that many of these kids dropped out of school and to get them into the classroom with dedicated teachers and open their books , get them back on track academically and study is a huge step.
That's, almost word for word, what Newton said in his deposition regarding Lulu Corter. Well, they weren't in school anyway so it's just fine to treat them like animals! (Obviously paraphrasing that last part but the underlined part is exactly what he said.
this is actually a good point ann. When I first signed on I actually questioned whether misbehavior should be rewarded with an outward bound type of trip whne all the other kids were stuck in the classroom. I didnt imagine that kids would be out of school for months at a time (In the case of wilderness) I did outward bound at home where it was pretty much an outdoor ed thing with all the guys at my school and it was great fun. Id heard about the cops also taking at risk kids on outward bound trips for a weekend or maybe up to about a fortnight and thought it was something like that. Year later when I read about that Aaron Bacon kid I saw that his mum expressed similar scepticsm about taking the kid out of school go camping and then obviously reading the rest of the story and just feeling terrible for her. Was lulu corter the kid who spent like ten years in a rehab?
I accept that some kids who are in trouble are skipping school a lot but it makes no logical sense to tell them that on one hand their education is important enough that they have to go to a boarding school that they dont want to go to but on the other hand to employ teachers that are not properly qualified. A lot of kids who are kind of wild at school actually have learning issues. Part of the reason for the bad behavior is because they feel embarrased to admit they are having trouble. Id imagine that teaching kids like this would be difficult and would take a pretty high level of expertese. All the more reason to employ high quality professionals