Teen Advocates USA Recommends Outward Bound Programs

[Karass]

The shame of it is outward Bound has a long standing history and reputation outside of the US in numerous countries which has nothing to do with this industry. Outward Bound Australia, for instance has family options as well as kids ones. While it is designed for those who like a challenge, it is not punitive necessarily.

Outward Bound had that same reputation in the U.S., and maybe it still does in some circles -- and they still have adventure outings for families too.

it is a real shame that Outward bound in the US seems to have allowed its standards to drop so much because it is a well regarded international organisation.

I seem to recall that O.B. has leant (sold) its name to some state-run bootcamps in the U.S., but that's not what this incident was about. Remember, Elisa won this trip and was looking forward to it. It was supposed to be physically demanding, but safe. But the trip leaders should have known better than to do a desert hike on a summer afternoon.

That was me earlier, talking about the southwest deserts and elevation (too lazy to login). In this part of the country, anyone who does any remote outdoor activity -- camping, riding dirt bikes, etc. -- knows the dangers of the summer temperatures in the desert, and also knows where to go -- higher elevation -- to enjoy the wild outdoors without risking heat stroke. A "professional" leading something like an O.B. expedition should know this a lot better than someone like me. There's no excuse for taking that kind of risk with someone else's life -- or even your own. If you want to see the desert instead of the mountains, you do it in the colder months. period.

Oz girl, I don't know how much you have explored the wilder parts of Oz, but I think Aussies have a similar situation and a similar respect for climate as we southwestern Americans. You wouldn't do a hiking trip in north Western Australia in summertime, but if you really want to explore that place, there's a time that's appropriate. I suspect that even Marble Bar is quite nice right about now, in Oz wintertime.

[Oz girl]

Oz girl, I don't know how much you have explored the wilder parts of Oz, but I think Aussies have a similar situation and a similar respect for climate as we southwestern Americans. You wouldn't do a hiking trip in north Western Australia in summertime, but if you really want to explore that place, there's a time that's appropriate. I suspect that even Marble Bar is quite nice right about now, in Oz wintertime.

Absolutely not. Even in winter you dont go unless it is with a really highly trained instrucotr because it still gets hot as hell. particularly in places like marble Bar and the Pilbara. The other danger is falling down a mine shaft as most Oz mining is in the middle of nowhere. many an English or German backpacker has tragically lost their life and litereally just disappeared because they dont have an appreciation of how dangerous the Oz desert is and take ill equipt bomb cars which break down ffar from any help. The other reason whyt ppl exerciase caution here is because in areas with a lot of scrub and trees there is a strong risk of bushfire in the summer.

In summermost of this sort of thing begins in the early morning. this way you are done by about 11 in the morning and spend the danger part of the day safely in the shade. Dusk hikes are popular for the same reason.

 Given that the difference between here and the Us is that people actually live in outback american states like Utah, arizona and new mexico, it always astounds me that this industry seems to be so cavilier about the risks. Afterall if a reasonable amount of ppl live with desert heat you would think there would be more respect for such a formidable landscape. Perhaps familiarity breeds contempt

[Ursus]

I remember when Outward Bound was still in its early days in this country, and it was a whole different ballgame than it apparently is now.  Safety precautions and safety instructions to the participants were strongly stressed, to the point of almost being a pain in the neck.  Part of enjoying and respecting that great wilderness lay in respecting the inherent dangers certain situations entailed and proceeding accordingly.  It was called "being smart."

Nowadays it appears you get a lot of personalities involved who are attracted to this sort of thing for all the wrong reasons.  It seems like it is now a predominantly macho thing to brave the elements and take foolish risks; to do any less would risk one being called a wuss in certain circles.  All very well for a grown individual to make such choices for themselves; not so when it comes to making such choices for less experienced individuals one is entrusted with, let alone minors.

And then you have the involvement of the troubled teen industry.  Braving the big bad outdoors becomes an obligatory part of "character development," not to mention a punitive one in certain programs.

I think Outward Bound's problem is primarily two-fold.  First, the organization in this country has changed hands, spread itself out and too thin, and has made some regrettable choices which have all resulted in a tremendous decrease in standards.  Second, who do you hire to head these expeditions and what is their training, background?  You no longer have the disciplined purists for whom safety comes first; you have a very mixed bag of applicants, some of whom trained under fanatics, who--as I mentioned above--have all the wrong reasons for going into this business.

[Karass]

Given that the difference between here and the Us is that people actually live in outback american states like Utah, arizona and new mexico, it always astounds me that this industry seems to be so cavilier about the risks. Afterall if a reasonable amount of ppl live with desert heat you would think there would be more respect for such a formidable landscape. Perhaps familiarity breeds contempt

The similarities might be greater than the differences. In AZ and UT, for example, the vast majority of the population lives in just a couple of larger cities & towns -- most of the land area of those states is uninhabited. Sadly, that makes them good candidates for programs -- from the program owner's viewpoint.

I would hope that in the case of this Outward Bound tragedy, that it was ignorance rather than "familiarity breeds contempt." It's really unbelievable that if this had been a wilderness therapy program instead of a voluntary adventure, the Utah regulations would've probhibited a hike at those temperatures. Some of the wilderness programs in these extreme climates even have a summer range in the mountains and a winter range in the deserts, specifically so they can operate year-round without subjecting anyone (including their field staff employees) to the worst extremes of the climate.

One would expect that a voluntary adventure expedition would at least follow the same rules and take the same precautions as an involuntary "troubled teen" program. Had they done so, Elisa and the gentleman who also died in Utah that same month might both still be alive.

[Anonymous]

Even if the forced hike deaths cease altogether something need to be done about restraint deaths as well. They are both brutally and lonely ways to die.