Author Topic: What I am asking and what I want Answers too..  (Read 14518 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline katfish

  • Posts: 543
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.cafety.org
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2005, 04:00:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-05-12 10:53:00, sarahf wrote:

"To quote the great (and yes I mean great) Mike Finn, "Fair only happens in Pomona once a year."


 If you hate MMS so much then move on and forget about it. They are not responsible for you misery. You are.

If you've made poor choices and feel guilty or unhappy that is not the school's problem.

Things that I have been descirbed in these pages as abuse I think is way off. I was forced to eat food I hate, and made to perform all manner of physical labor against my will. But that was the whole point. It wasn't about the food or the task, but about relinquishing control and changing. Again to quote Mike, "The best you could do got you there," so if you think that you would have been better off without MMS I think you are probably wrong. "


I was thinking about replying to this, but this is so very much MMS talking that I can't even bring myself to respond as I normally would.   Mike Finn, the great Mike Finn.  LOL, now that's very funny. Correction, how about, 'the greatly disturbed, power hungry, aggressive Mike Finn'...Now that's better...
And how about the  poor choices part/unhappiness not being MMS fault, being our fault- did anyone even say that we were unhappy?  Even if someone out there critical of MMS is unhappy, what on earth does being happy have to do with anything??  Completely nonsensical to me. Clarification: We're talking abuse and righting wrongs, not unhappiness.  Now if you're saying us having problems/unahppy with MMS is our own fault, then I recommend reading other posts I and other have written on blaming victims- several girls have said same thing, but the holes in that arguement are so huge you could fit...Mike through 'em!
 
'The best you could do got you there'- ROTFL - that's so MMS for ya.  Gotta give to them, they know how to get girls to follow along their script...  Just like "your way doesnt work, now it's time to do things our way"  Essentially arguing that you have no right to argue against MMS b/c your too fucked up to get it right and worse, right is what MMS tells you is right.

It's so unreal to me, downright crazy how after many years it's the same old arguement/justification with no variation.  Even words are the same, nothing uniquely individual about the arguement above. Same old MMS rhetoric.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
Margaret Mead

Offline sarahf

  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2005, 04:57:00 PM »
so, because i disagree with you, I am just another brainwashed mms flunkie?
i do think that mms is a great place. i don't think it was abusive, i think it was tough. it was supposed to be. i understand that for some people it wasn't a positive experience and that is really sad, but just because some of us had wonderful experiences there doesn't mean that we don't have minds of our own. like i've said before, i don't think it is or was a perfect, but the good far out weighs the bad.
women writing here may not have specifically said that they are unhappy, but spending all this time logging complaints on to a forum, doesn't exactly scream happy and well-adjusted.
i just happened upon this sight and was excited because i thought it might be a way to reconnect with people i had lost touch with. what i've found instead has made me sad. not sad for me, but sad for some of you, so trapped in bitterness that you can't or won't move on.
[ This Message was edited by: sarahf on 2005-05-12 14:01 ]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline audge

  • Posts: 8
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2005, 05:12:00 PM »
i don't check this very often, so if you have specific questions for me please send me an email ([email protected]).  i'd actually love to talk to anybody i went to that was there when i was.  all we had were each other and even then I was scared of being "called out" so much that i didn't really let myself get too close, no one-no boyfriend, friend, parent- can understand.  i don't know what to do now.  i really want to let it all go and move on with my life, but i can't in all sincerity while i know there are still girls there who are in fear and parents that are being taken advantage of
my parents didn't do too much research before sending me to montana and didn't know what i was in for.  i was sent to mms and felt abandaned- not knowing what my parents were being told about me and not able to tell them how i felt without them being told by the school that i was just being manipulative.  i left mms again, having become used to the lies i told myself and almost institutionalized (referring to the comment in another posting about a dream a girl had where she went back to visit and was scared but still felt safe) because at least i knew what to expect.  though what i expected wasn't positive, i learned how to fake my way around it.  the school convinced me that they knew the truth about everything and always knew better- "keep in touch whenever you need help"- then i was abandaned again when no one returned my phone calls.
i'm very confused, more sad then angry, and hopeful that soon there will be federal regulations on the actions taken by theraputic schools that don't have credentials to be doing what they're doing to teenagers
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2005, 06:06:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-05-12 13:00:00, katfish wrote:


It's so unreal to me, downright crazy how after many years it's the same old arguement/justification with no variation.  Even words are the same, nothing uniquely individual about the arguement above. Same old MMS rhetoric.

"

Tell me about it!

Quote
And how about the poor choices part/unhappiness not being MMS fault, being our fault- did anyone even say that we were unhappy? Even if someone out there critical of MMS is unhappy, what on earth does being happy have to do with anything??


This is exactly the same slight of mind they used at The Seed and Straight. If you're not completely, blithely, euphorically happy all the time, then there's "something going on w/ you!" Come on, fess up! It's you! You're the problem! Don't go blaming us just because we broke your stupid nose or some dumb shit! You did the necessary things to make us get a little rough with you!"

It's a stupid trick. Really dumb. Any toddler should be able to see through it. Nobody's 100% happy all the time or really at any time. Ask anybody "Gee, is something bothering you?" and they'll very likely be able to come up w/ something.  "Yes, come to think of it, I do have some dark feelings.... please help me!"  So this argument works on virtually anyone dumb enough or frazzled enough to accept it w/o challenge.

Oh, and no cheating your way to blissfull euphorea through drugs, sex or anything else. The only way to deliverance is through confession, shame and contrition! Just do that again and again and again until your happy!
 :roll:

I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline sarahf

  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2005, 06:11:00 PM »
i'm not happy all the time, that's not what i'm saying. all i'm saying is that there is a lot of bitterness in this forum and while i think that it sad, i think putting all the blame on a program that helped lots of us is uncalled for and unfair. i looked at the web site for the Straight thing, and i thought it was a joke. i forwarded the link to some of my friends. if that place is real then it is total insanity. comparing mms to that place is absurd.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2005, 07:22:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-05-12 15:11:00, sarahf wrote:

 i think putting all the blame on a program that helped lots of us is uncalled for and unfair.

All which blame? People are just comparing notes and finding that, though you couldn't dare say it then, a lot of them felt the same way about things that went on at MMS. And I'm not surprised that several different people have talked about nightmares. A whole lot of us have Program nightmares. It's a lot like "naked at school" nightmares, except that most people don't ever experience being naked at school, whereas disconcerting Program dreams tend to be about how things really were.

How would you attribute things like that?

Quote
comparing mms to that place is absurd. "


And yet we keep finding similarities in dogma, policies and even lingo. Amazing, isn't it?

We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark.  The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.  
--Plato

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2005, 07:30:00 PM »
Mike Finn was a great man... I got very close to him before I left Montana... he had an extremely tough life before finding recovery and did an amazing job getting through it.  He was never abusive to anyone that I ever witnessed.. He was caring, though sometimes kind of rough around the edges.  He was an extremely honest man and I appreciate his honesty to this day.  Yeah, it got annoying being picked on, but in the end, I learned so much from him.  And I KNOW others agree with me, and I KNOW others don't!  That seems a tricky subject on this forum.  Just dealing with the fact that we all seem to disagree!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline katfish

  • Posts: 543
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.cafety.org
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2005, 07:47:00 PM »
But Sarah, are you suggesting that because the program helped some students, those who felt genuinely harmed should stop being honest about that and essentially, keep their mouths shut ?

I think some girls may feel as if aknowledging that some girls had really awful experiences at MMS can be equated to discounting the program entirely and somehow takes away from what you experienced.  There is a definite sense that these stories of girls feeling mistreated are very threatening to girls who feel MMS is a great program (with some minor flaws that can be ignored) and easily slip into the dismissive rhetoric of how we're just a bunch of disgruntled students bashing MMS who must be somehow fucked up, have unresolved issues, or be otherwise defective b/c we can't accept the program just didn't work for us.  The threat seems to affect the ability to even aknowledge that others had valid different experiences and see things from that angle for a moment, instead of resorting to telling girls to get over it.

  The hostility as well as the lack of empathy has been a wall difficult to penetrate, with the exception of a few girls like Melissa ? and Aya who seem to have a clear pic. of both sidesand don't seem threatened by it one way or the other.
I can only try and put myself in your frame of mind and take a guess at what's going on, perhaps you could share your thoughts with me on that ?
 There are things about MMS that were really cool, and many things that were very uncool and could use improvement, adjustement or entire reworking.  To say that doesn't take away from the fact that there was some positive (or a lot positive for some) and that most of us loved the staff and formed great long-lasting friendships.  
Don't know how much sense this makes- I'm awfully worn out this evening.
kat
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
Margaret Mead

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2005, 08:03:00 PM »
Kat... loved your last post.  You sound truly understanding, sypmathetic, calm, honest... lots of good words.  I just don't think there should be a lawsuit, don't think the school should be shut down.  What do you guys really want as an outcome from a lawsuit?  I haven't had that answered yet.  Do you want money?  Want the school to close?  Because it shouldn't close... it has helped a lot of people, it's different now...  Maybe it should change its approach a little, but that's up for debate... I mean, they work it the way they do because they feel that it's most effective that way, and they have reworked the system.  They were doing it while I was there and have been doing it since.  

So really, what are your expecations in filing a lawsuit??  I honestly want to know, and am not asking it so that I can fight back at you... I really am just curious, maybe I just dont' know much about the law, and suing people and what someone will get out of it.  Personal satisfaction?

Help me out here! :smile:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline sarahf

  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2005, 08:04:00 PM »
i understand what you're saying kat. it's hard for me to hear such venom being spit at a place and people i care so deeply about and i feel a little protective over them. i am willing to accept that there are girls for whom the program didn't work out and who were unhappy about their experience there.
i guess when i found this forum last night i was totally taken aback by all the anger and resentment i read and many of my comments have been reactionary.
i am truly saddened that there are women who felt mistreated and "abused" at mms. i think that the people at mms (or those there when i was) are good people that are doing their best to help a group of troubled girls emerge with more self confidence and self-esteem. mms did that for me.
i have read a lot of back and forth between women discrediting each others experience. and unfortunately i've jumped right into the mix and done the same thing. i'm sorry if i invalidated anyone's feelings about their time during and after mms.
i know it was positive for me, but i also do have nightmares about being sent back. i haven't had one in a while, but they are scarry. i think those dreams have less to do with mms itself than with a time in my life where any control i had was taken away from me. getting "locked up" is not something i would wish on anyone because i do think it has had lasting traumatic effects, even if the experience itself ended up being positive.
-Sarah
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Star

  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2005, 09:56:00 PM »
I have a very decent life. I am very honest and aware of who I am today. But In my previous life, even before MMS I was not happy. I was abused, physically, sexually, emotinally, verbally, you name it. When I was sent to MMS I was supposed to get the proper attention and care for the pain that I had been through my entire life. I was extremely traumatized, and vulnerable.I needed understanding. I needed love and attention. I was only 14 years old. My case was extra sensitive, but it made me no more special than anyone. Instead of being understood I was told that I was in complete self-pity. I had been molested and I was told that I was a sex addict. I was abandoned, and I was told that I was ungrateful (because I had been adopted). I was confused, and I was told that I was manipulative.
I was hurting, and I was told that I was fine.
I was angry, and I was told that I was attention seeking.
 There were only about 30 girls there at the time, and I felt like I was always kicked to the side. It was not my job to beg someone to do therapy on me. I was there because they were the therapists or mentors, and I was their client. I was not an adult...I was a little child not even fully developed why should have the waited for me to "step up"..it had been the whole reason why I was sent there in the first place.

I can understand that Mission mountain school might not have been the place for a child with my case....but Mission Mountain School, if it is proffesional, why didn't they just tell my parents that they couln't help me? That they didn't know how to help me? Instead I was labeled a sex addict, an alcoholic, even a drug addict?
I am none of these things..I was mis-diagnosed, and I applied myself to all the "Medications" (as in AA, SLAA, NA meeting..even working all the 12 steps!) So when leaving MMS my problems were maily these false addictions that I had, and my true pain was never really dealt with. Do you want to know the simplest way I fixed myself?  One day I just decided that God would set things straight..and I did not need to keep on analyzing  over and over to detail. There was no point anymore, and that the simplest thing. MMS made me feel insane...as if I was not going to make it in the world. They made me feel like I was an alien. As if I was going to be paralized my entire life.
You know how it would feel if a doctor makes a mistake and tells you you need all these medications to survive, and make sure not to go here and there, and you need to attend all these classes, and deprive yourself of this and that, and tippy toe every where you go because you might die..and then you realize that your real treatment could have been a simple shot on the arm. You feel like a dumbass for ever believing such a dumb doctor, who just wanted to make you do all these things to benefit himself ..., and ofcourse you still hold that grudge years and years after.....well thats how I feel...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
et God do the judging.

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2005, 12:39:00 AM »
I don't know if I was there when you were, but I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I feel I had a similar experience there.  

Ashlee
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2005, 01:03:00 AM »
I was there 98-01

If you don't mind me asking...which ashlee is this?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2005, 01:09:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-05-12 16:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

He was an extremely honest man and I appreciate his honesty to this day.


How do you know he was honest? Do you have any reference other than him and his wife to verify anything that he told you?

One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics.
--Stephen Hawking, English scientist

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
What I am asking and what I want Answers too..
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2005, 01:16:00 AM »
Quote
"But Sarah, are you suggesting that because the program helped some students, those who felt genuinely harmed should stop being honest about that and essentially, keep their mouths shut ?


I don't think this is a fair quote... In fact, I think it's almost ironic because not only have YOU and many others on here advocated and been harsh to girls who have posted their positive experiences, but you have essentially "shut them up."  Just because someone had a positive experience does not mean that their post is irrelevant.  I posted on this site because Kathy's "Welcome MMS Alumni!" post encouraged the sharing of both positive AND negative sides.  
I am not going to pretend that I understand the experiences of the girl's who have been harmed. HOWEVER, I am here to give support and unfortunately it seems that the girls who are hurting want nothing to do with girls who aren't in the same boat. I did have a positive experience at MMS and I am not going to pretend otherwise.  Just because my experience there was positive doesn't mean that I haven't had other struggles in my life.... It also doesn't mean that I cannot be there for support and a listening ear.
You said that you feel the girls who had postive experiences "feel as if aknowledging that some girls had really awful experiences at MMS can be equated to discounting the program entirely and somehow takes away from what you experienced."  I don't feel this way at all actually.  In fact, I feel that the girls who had negative experiences don't want to hear the positive.  And that is unfair.  I have never posted a nasty response to someone's negative experience.  I haven't posted a supportive one either, so I will apologize for that.  I will make my support more available to those who want it.  But my hesistance in posting comes from the fact that I feel as if no one wants to hear me.  And just as those girls who feel abused want to be heard, whether it be in a post, a letter to Colleen, or a lawsuit... I WANT TO BE HEARD TOO.  I had a good experience and I don't think there is any shame in that.  What is shameful is that we are at each other's throats because we don't agree on experiences.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »