Parents, please consider this

[Anonymous]

Ive heard alot of peopel say just send your kid to therapy outside the program. but if a kid dosnt want therapy in the program, they sure as hell wont want it at home. ITs a catch 22. A rebellious kid probably wont be willing to learn outside the program just as they wouldnt in the program. Now I chose to accept what I thought made sense about the program and I chose to not accepth the things about it that were ridiculous. If I felt i was being in any way abused, and I know what actual abuse is like, I would certainly feel differently about it. But I knwo what abuse is and it simply was not. In life that is the way it is. What is abuse to one person, may not be abusive to another. If your used to a Tv in your room and getting what you want all the time, then yes, not gettign your way may seem abusive. But I consider that learnign gratutude. Do you know theres 12 year olds that have their own fucking cell phones for gods sake!? They have a Tv in every room, they have nice cloths, nice furniture, ect. My family was not rich growing up. i had 5 brothers and 2 sisters and my parents were remarried. We had to do chores. To some people, even us doing chores would seem abusive. Oh how sad they had to actually do chores around the house and didnt have a maid (ususally the Mom) clean up after them. See I consider that teaching responsiblity. Not getting everything I wanted was an understantement. It was understood that my parents just didnt have money to throw away on us and we had to accept that. I didnt bitch and moan as a kid when I didnt get a candy bar. i was greatful i got any food at all. As I recall, I ate a great deal of ramen noodles and mac n cheese as a child. I feel I appreciate things more because in the program I had to work for my privliges. YOu knwo those poeple who work in sweat shops overseas? Americans feel it is abusive and such. they protest and boycott the products. My husband did a paer on it for Sociology class and found out those peopel resent America for doing that. They are greatful to even get $0.15 an hour. They feel Americans are trying ot control them and when they boycott the products, they are not getting paid. And they can feed their families on that money, so they are happy for it. From a different perspective, abuse can seem not like abuse. We coem from a very monetary society. Stuff is important to us. We feel our right shave been violated when we get our stuff taken away. But stuff is just stuff. It is not who we are. I think having the cell phones taken away and the designer slutty cloths and the tvs was a good thing. Kids can learn that who you are is more important than what oyu have. If anything I suppose that is what they would consider abusive. having to earn wearing jewelry, makeup, shoes, ect. Which I think now at CCM they wear shoes form phase 1 on. I m not sure, but I believe that is true. I would just like to say that the program had points that need refining. Certainly it woudl be good for them always be looking ofr ways to improve it if they really wanted to help the kids. But alas, it seems it is a monetary thing. But please dont give up ont he good of the program simply because soem idiot greedy bastard is ruining it. Now, I dont think my program destroyed anyone. I was never made to feel like I was a bad person that needed the program to fix me. If anything it wa that I am a great person who cant see that in myself and I dont need fixing. I just need to accept my self for who i am and learn from my mistakes, not make them define me. So if soem people didnt accept the program and i did, thats one thing. If it was destroying their life, their happiness, their self esteem, then yes, perhaps one life is not worth that. But I can say that I dont know anyone who was utterly destroyed because of my program. So since they were not being destroyed because of it, I feel it was worth it.

If you remember it, why woudl you wish that upon me to save people who may not have been abused, they just didnt do well in that environment, they just didnt want to follow rules, they just didnt like it.

Oh I am not gullible. After having 4 brothers, you learn to take it with a grain of salt. I certainly know that I have to look at things from all angles before i make a decision. but whats right for me may not be right for you, but who determines who is ultimatly right then? If were both wrong then no ones right. it is a matter of personal belief and perception. Since no one is the same, I dont think anyone truly is right or wrong about what they believe.

My escort came in the day. Alot of the kids I know their parents took them there themselves. But many were escorted as well. I was only searched once when I got there. Its not like they did it randomly the entire time. If theyt didnt search you, you could concievably get in drugs, cigarettes, whatever. And I got my shoes back. i got to wear them outside. I only wore slippers inside and only for the 1st phase. So not for the entire time or for 3 months. Besides slippers are comfy. I wish i could wear them all the time now.  :smile:

Certainly when you speak of the abuse at Straight, I can see what you are talking about. That didnt happen where I was. No one was humiliated or torn down to make them suceptible to brainwashing, which is what it seems straight was about. I dont want to ignore the bad to see the good. i want to help you to see the good and see the bad so we can all work on an idea of how to make it better. No one got anywhere by ignoring weaknesses and only admiring the strengths.

Certainly invouluntary therapy will be less effective because your not doing it for you. But if you go to therapy involuntarily and can see it starting to work for oyu then that to me is a good thing. But the two comparisons are not entirely the same. When I went to therapy befoe the program, I just sat and ignored my therapist. It didnt damage me in any way, just wasted my time. Now rape will damage you. I dotn recall going to therapy now for having to involuntarily go before. But for rape, I would go, becaus ethat mentally and physically damages you.

I can say, i love my friends from the program. Even the ones I dont talk to anymore, I am contantly thinking of them. Where they are, wha ttheir life is like, ect. I didnt love all of them, but even the ones I didnt love, i care about. i donlt like anyone being in pain. i dont like anyone to have to suffer. I wish well for everyone. But i liked the intimacy, because i really cared abou them so it didnt feel fake to me. And since my best friends now are friends I had in the program, I feel that is the truth for me.

Certainly if you didnt want ot be there, it woudlnt work. and since it was abusive, then it certainly wasnt going to work. Well since you feel that the peopel it could be good for are not as important as those it wouldnt help then there is not point  asking how oyu would detrmine who could benefit and who couldnt since its invouluntary. I didnt argue wiht my parents abou tgoing. i didnt yell or say I hated them. I agreed I woudl try it. I hugged them and kissed them and said goodbye. SO in a way I guess I didnt consider it invouluntary, because I also thought I shoudl try it.

Truth be told, it has good that can be embraced. The bad needs reform. Lets work on it.

Amanda

"If you want children to keep their feet on the ground, put some responsibility on their shoulders."
Abigail Van Buren

[Anonymous]

I have no reason not to believe you. So why is it so hard to look at it from my perspective?
Amanda"

Because I know where this is coming from. Because I know the program, its origins, the way it's been developed in the US and abroad. Because I know about the seminars, and where they come from. Because I know about the process, about the way humans are broken down and destroyed so that a new, pre-approved version could be inserted.

I'm glad you're doing well, and feeling well about yourself and your experiences. But I can't believe you when you say the program is helpful. Because I know the program, and I know what it entails. And I know why you are convinced you were helped.

This is not an attack on you-- I know you might perceive it as such. This is a (well deserved) attack on the program. The program is a cult by all definitions, and it must be stopped.

[Anonymous]

why can't you accept that people are different.  Arguing about the program helping or not is like arguing about the health benifits of peanuts!  It's great for some people, they just love them and they offer protein.  Others, it makes them obese and causes heart disease.  Others, it kills if you are alergic to them.  WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT!  The program helps some, hurts some.  Parents should be aware of that.  It is up to the parents to weigh the risks.  Also, my sister and I had the same parents, same rules, same discipline.  My sister would swear she was abused.  I will swear we were not, but were raised by strict, but loving parents.  It is the same with the program.  Yelling at a child may seem abusinve to one, but if you are hard of hearing...it might be necessary!

[Anonymous]

I dint say you had to believe me. I did say try to look at it from another perspective. So tell me, since you seem to know so much about me, why do I feel the program was helpful? Id like to know, since you are implying the reasoning for my perception is wrong. Where is this coming from? I am the person I always was. I still listen to Tool, Rage, all the band the program said was a no no for me. I still watch violent movies that have no redeeming quaility. I smoke occasionally. I drink occasionaly. I have learned balance. I have taken what I learned in the program, what ive learned in life, and I mesh it all to find a nice medium.  In the program it seems you take things a little too seriously. People need to realize that movies and music are inspirational but also recreational. They wont make you do anything. They wont destroy your life unless you put too much emphasis on the artist or writers words. I also am not scared of relaspse. If I mess up in my sobriety, I can pick myself up again. If I wa always worried about doing something wrong I would go crazy! But I am convinced that CERTAIN things about the program helped me. not all of it. The things htat didnt werent abusive or anything. They werent something that damaged me. They were just stupid petty rules, stupid things I think were irrelevent to my recovery. But certainly I had expereinces that were helpful to me in finding out who i am, who I want to be, what I stand for. And when i chose that, it wasnt who they thought I should be. It was who I was already but just didnt see it. I know now that I am a very cool person. i have alot to offer others. I always thought I woudl end up dead or working at BK or something, not going to school to get a career. I thought i was too stupid and unworthy of making somehting of myself. I think my views are VERY different from the peopel who run the program. I feel I benefitted from the program to become who I am, but I became someone who stands against what the owners of the program stand for. I am as far away from their beleifs as you can get. I dont agree with making a huge profit off of peoples recovery. I am not in favor of standing up for something when you know it is wrong, just because oyu will profit from it. I can say I dont support that mindset. So they helped me to become who i am, which is entirely different form the person you feel they were trying to make me be. If you feel the program tries to turn everyone into little blissfully ignorant conformed robots, your wrong about me anyway. I am not a blissfully happy conformed person. I believe in a womans right to choose, in gay rights, in everyone being equal, in womans rihgts, in peace, in the rich paying hteir fair share, in small business, not big business, in the environment. I believe the government is corrupt. i believe GW is a horrible president. i believe organized religion is as far from the truth as you can get. I beleive in natural heling as opposed to big drug companies (unless you have a chemical imbalance T) I believe that it is an attrocity that pot and hemp are illegal, while alcohol and ciggaretted are. I believe in good triumphing over evil. Say Im starry eyed. Say im dillusional. But I dont think that the owners of the program woudl agree wiht me about any of that.

Is it a bad thing to be told you are a good person? Is it a bad thing to be told you have a chioce in life? Is it a bad thing to believe you have the chance to be whatever you want in life? I was never belitled or told I was bad and needed starightning out. I was never told I was a liar. I was not labeled liek that. I labeled myself for sure. i took that on as who i was. But if anything, the program helped me see I wasnt my mistakes. Sure it seems very cliche and very goofy. But for hte most part, I liked what i learned.

I dont take it personal. i know why you feel that way. What program did you go to? That might explain alot. I respect your opinion. I respect your experience. Thats the beauty of being happy wiht who you are. I can still listen to you and your perspective. I can still weight the good and bad. If I seem defensive, Im not. I just feel it is odd for someone to tryo to tell me they know better about me than I do. I certainly wouldnt make that asumption about you!
Amanda
"The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart."
-Helen Keller

[Anonymous]

Amanda, philosophically, theologically, and politically, we are very different.  But I am so glad for you and your experiences and thankful for you sharing them here.  It takes someone very brave to be open on this forum, knowing that there are many out there that cannot wait to tear you and your beliefs apart.  Continue to stand firm and continue to share your experiences.  They help more than you can imagine.  There are lots like me that need to hear your side.  You are an encouragment. You and Perri offer a glimmer of light in this very dark place.

[Antigen]

On 2005-04-17 13:25:00, Anonymous wrote:

Certainly if you didnt want ot be there, it woudlnt work. and since it was abusive, then it certainly wasnt going to work. Well since you feel that the peopel it could be good for are not as important as those it wouldnt help then there is not point asking how oyu would detrmine who could benefit and who couldnt since its invouluntary. I didnt argue wiht my parents abou tgoing. i didnt yell or say I hated them. I agreed I woudl try it. I hugged them and kissed them and said goodbye. SO in a way I guess I didnt consider it invouluntary, because I also thought I shoudl try it

Well then if they only took kids like you who were truely there by choice, then they could eliminate the locked doors and the practice of taking away shoes and other control mechanisms. That would be a big improvement, but I don't think the people who run these programs would be willing to go along with that.

For the other kids, the ones taken by escorts or given a harsh ultimatum, it's a completely different story. A hug is nice if it comes from someone you really like. It's something very differnt when it comes from someone you don't particularly like. Sharing stories, talking about personal issues is just the same. If it's voluntary, great. If it's not, it can be extremely humiliating and traumatic.

I never said the other kids are more important to you. I just said that your benefit was not worth their sacrifice. But, the way the program works, their participation is a crucial element. You must have a group and they must be brought to heel and they must all tow the line or suffer consequences. That's how it works.

And it's also important to remember that, though no pepper spray is used at CCM, CCM kids do indeed get that degree of abuse. If they don't tow the line and the parents are willing, they just ship them to Jamaica or Costa Rica or Samoa where they can more easily get away with it. That threat is also a vital element of how the Program "works".

No gods, no masters.
--margaret Sanger

[Anonymous]

Give the girl a break!  Just be happy for her!  She is doing well.  Why must you wish her to fail.  It seems like you just can't wait for her to fall on her face and come crawling back to you saying what a failure the program was.  My...you are sounding like the church lady you so dislike!  Why is it so important to you that everyone see everything your way?  Face it....the program works for some and not for others.  Some people like spinach some don't.  There are some programs that are better than others...It is really okay.  Parents just need to weigh the risks and investigate very closely before sending their children to any program.  Just like they need to investigate before sending them to camp, school, or even over to a friends house.

[Antigen]

Anon, you're off the wall. I don't want anyone to fail and I can't imagine how you've managed to read that into anything I've said.

Amanda, I just read your last post. Couple of things strike me.

One, it seems that there's a definite line between people who view their experience as harmful and those who don't. I and some friends have noticed this when discussing The Seed, Straight and other programs as well. If you were there voluntarily and viewed yourself as being in need of help before hand, then you tend to view the experience as more benign. If you didn't want help and don't want to change, it's a different story.

And that is a vitally important difference to my way of thinking. The single most important reform that I advocate is simply to remove the locks and guards, eliminate "escort services" who resort to shackles or drugs and stirctly, only take clients who have given fully informed consent! No surprises. That would eliminate most of the abuse. But it wouldn't fit the vision of the

return undef() if /coercion/i; (Perl hacks will understand that)

The other thing that strikes me is that you seem to have done well for yourself more by rejecting much of the Program than by accepting it. And more power to ya!

And now the liberals want to stop President Reagan from selling chemical warfare agents and military equipment to Saddam Hussein and why? Because Saddam 'allegedly' gassed a few Kurds in his own country. Mark my words. All of this talk of Saddam Hussein being a 'war criminal' or 'committing crimes against humanity' is the same old thing. LIBERAL HATE SPEECH! and speaking of poison gas... I SAY WE ROUND UP ALL THE DRUG ADDICTS AND GAS THEM TOO!
 
--Rush Limbaugh, November 3, 1988

[Anonymous]

To anon,
Thank you for your support. Its ok though. I dont mind talking to antigen about this. It is important to view things from all angels. Antigen has been through a traumatic program that did scar her. She is just trying to make sure that no one else is harmed. But truly thanks for listening. She is the only person on this forum that has even been willing to hear me out without judging or expecting me to take on her point of view, so I dont feel attacked by her.

antigen,
I know I needed help, but when I had to really look at myself, I probably woudl have wanted to run away from it. It is hard to really deal with your issues and accept accountability for omy part. I cant say if it wasnt a lockdown facility that I wouddnt have given up. In certain situations, I probably would have stayed. But i probably wouldnt have stayed for the important stuff that helped me simply because it is diffucult to face your fears. I think it was good for me anyway to not have the ability to run away ewhen things got harder. It was good for me to face up to my fears and be responsible for once. I did go because my parents sent me there. But I was also aware that my life was out of control and I needed help. I understood that the program might be good for me so I was wiliing to try it from day one. I didnt resist or try to run away from what was taught. I did learn from the program what ot do and what not to do. A good friend of mine from CCM and I were discussing the weaknesses of the program. I think they need to better prepare kids for what might happen if they do relapse, instead of putting so much emphasis on not relapsing. They need to give more tools to kids for if they falter. We touched on it, but it was not a main point because they felt it set you up for failure. I also think they need a way to help kids become more used to life outside the program before they go home. You get used to beign structured that you dont reall ylearn how to structure yourself. Certainly because we had high phase facility, we got more freedom to do that, but the college program is a more effective way I think. Also they could do a better job at screenign the staff. If the staff are screened and they do not live up the the expectaions of a good staff member then they should not be hired in the first place. If oyu are workign at a rehab to make money and not because you care abou thte people your helping, then your more likely to abuse the people or take advantage of that power. Plus I think the heads of the program need to check their intentions. I also think they need to evaluate what is going well in the program and what is going not so well and adjust that. If they arent willing to admit they are wrong about certain things then they shoudlnt be running a program designed to help someone stay honest and accountable. that ids hypocracy.

Oh the things that I agree with in the program helped me jsut as much as the things I dont agree with. I feel it was all a learning expereince. Learning ot trust myself, love myself, be confident, structure my time so I dotn get bored and do stupid stuff, stand up for who i am, was a great hing for me. I am happy the program helped me learn that. I am not in agreement wiht alot of it, but its not the things I learned Im not in agreement with. its the structure of the program, the intentions of the peopel running it, the way they go abou tit for the most part that Im not in a greement wiht. I think teaching a kid to respect themselves and to liek who they are is not a bad thing to do. But if oyu do it in such a way as they are forced to accept it because of consequences then the message gets lost. It is true that if you dont do certain things the way they tell you to you dont get to move foreward. Not all the time, but wiht home contracts, seminars, rules, ect that is true. In therapy I didnt have that constriction. Now I liked Discovery and Focus. I like dthe processses.  iliked the thigns I learned about myself. And the facilitator I had didnt choose people out. If they wanted to leave they left, but she knew not everyone would do it just the way they were supposed to and she wanted everyone to have the opportunity to learn. I liked that. But I feel everyone should be able to do a seminar the way they feel will work for them in order to get the lesson.  Does that make sense?

Now change is uncomfortable. Certainly if your change is for someone else then it isnt true change. it is brainwashing. I changed my perceptions because it felt right to me. not because someone told me I should feel that way abou tmyself. When I saw that what they were saying was right on, sure i let that change my perspective because I had new information to weigh against the old informaiton I had. If someone was telling me i was a peice of crap i woudnt have listened. But I guess the program was just tellign me things I knew but just didnt want to accept about myself. I hoep that makes sense. They helped bring it to light, but it was always subconciously there.

I am not sure if CCM does that anymore (sends kids to jamaica) I know they stopped doind that before I graduated. They could have started it up again. If you find info on it, will oyu let me know?

I can see it from your angle Antigen. I admit the truth that it isnt perfect. But I just cant say that I felt abused there. Even the girls that agree it wasnt perfect agree wiht me on that. Kids getting sent to a horrible other program isnt abuse going on in CCM. Thats on Ken Kays shoulders adn the parents. When my mom felt shakey about anything going on in the program, she made it clear to the people that if she didnt agree with it it wasnt goign to happen. i remember a disagreement between her and the family rep and she almost pulled me to another group. I was not happy abou that. I got to know those girls and they knew me. To pull me out woudl have been a huge mistake. But my mom was on top of it. Adn she came to regulary check it out to make sure I wasnt beign abused.

Amanda

"There are two lasting bequests we can give our children. One is roots. The other is wings."
-Hodding Carter Jr.

[Erinys]

On 2005-04-17 17:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

"To anon,

 It is important to view things from all angels.

Amanda

This is beautiful!  A typo but  most apropos for these unmoderated fora!.

"entertain angels unaware"

Thank you Antigen, and thank you Amanda.

I don't go lookin' for trouble. I just keep a little in a box should someone come by who is.
--Bill Warbis

[Antigen]

On 2005-04-17 17:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

Antigen,

I know I needed help, but when I had to really look at myself, I probably woudl have wanted to run away from it. It is hard to really deal with your issues and accept accountability for my part. I cant say if it wasnt a lockdown facility that I wouddnt have given up. In certain situations, I probably would have stayed. But i probably wouldnt have stayed for the important stuff that helped me simply because it is diffucult to face your fears.

Now that raises a red flag in my mind. Again (cause any serious discussion on this topic so often falls apart into accusations and name calling) I don't mean that I think you're lying or misleading. But that you may have been misled.

That is just exactly what all of the executives at Straight and The Seed used to tell the adoring press. That was the alleged reason why we had to be watched constantly, even on the toilet. That was the alleged reason why kids who may have been disobedient and wreckless prior to intake suddenly started cutting themselves. One joker, back in the early `80's, was actually quoted in the paper as attributing self harming and suicidal ideation to marijuana withdrawal!

Facing your issues and fears in a non-threatening, therapeutic environment is not really so terribly unpleasant as to require physical lock down to prevent escape. But the anon poster is right that there's something about the way the WWASP method goes about causing change that does cause extreme duress. (I have an advantage here because I can put his comment here together w/ other comments that he's made and get a better idea where he's coming from)

I think it was good for me anyway to not have the ability to run away ewhen things got harder. It was good for me to face up to my fears and be responsible for once.

That's a matter of distorted definitions. You're not really being responsible if you don't have a choice. This is also, word for word, what the Seed/Straight programs taught as responsibility. But it simply isn't accurate. BTW, you do know that both WWASP and The Seed were based on the Synanon method, right? I was astounded back in around `96 or so to hear some of the same lingo coming out of WWASP kids interviewed for the 48 Hourse piece on it as I heard over and over from Seedlings and Straightlings. A lot of the same philosophy and even language has carried over all these years.

A good friend of mine from CCM and I were discussing the weaknesses of the program. I think they need to better prepare kids for what might happen if they do relapse, instead of putting so much emphasis on not relapsing.

I agree w/ this entirely. One point that you and Ashley and others have sort of touched on is that simple maturation, passing of time, leveling out of raging hormones has a lot to do w/ the radical changes most WWASP kids experiece. Unless you're really traumatized, there's very little chance that you're going to revert to behavior you had at 14 or 15 when you come out a year or two later. More often, you're going to go forward and make new and more interesting mistakes. And the Program (as I understand it) completely lacks any way to address that reality.

I also think they need a way to help kids become more used to life outside the program before they go home. You get used to beign structured that you dont really learn how to structure yourself. Certainly because we had high phase facility, we got more freedom to do that, but the college program is a more effective way I think. Also they could do a better job at screenign the staff.

I agree w/ this too. But I think there's a conflict w/ the basic premis of how the Program works. It works by removing all choices, taking total control physically and strictly limiting even time to reflect or freely communicate. I don't think the Program proponants and operators have much more clue about how harmful this can be than the shrinks who hand out Zoloft and Prozac like skittles understand the harm they may be doing. But there it is. Many program vets have the same complaint. When you get out, you've lost the habit of thinking and planning for yourself. A lot of people who went on to staff will tell you that part of the reason they did that is that it was frighteing to try to live outside of that strictly controled, structured environment.

If the staff are screened and they do not live up the the expectaions of a good staff member then they should not be hired in the first place.

There I think you'll find that it's not a series of oversights, but a series of poor choices. WWASP programs seem to condone what we're describing here as bad staff. Do you ever talk to that facilitator who you liked so much? I don't know if she'd be willing to be completely candid w/ you or not. But I think it's pretty likely that, if she was as kind and understanding as you say, she probably took (takes) a lot of heat for it.

I also think they need to evaluate what is going well in the program and what is going not so well and adjust that. If they arent willing to admit they are wrong about certain things then they shoudlnt be running a program designed to help someone stay honest and accountable. that ids hypocracy.

Could be hypocracy, but I don't think they view it that way. I think the conflict between your view and theirs is that they honestly don't see anything wrong w/ what they're doing or how they're doing it. They think the rest of the world is just off kilter and not enlightened enough to understand how right they are.

This is where the Program fits neatly into the definition of a cult or thought reform. The dictionary definition is not adequate for this discussion. Here is a very good article that describes what that means:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/brain ... ing21.html

Oh the things that I agree with in the program helped me jsut as much as the things I dont agree with.

What are those things you agree with? Can you describe, w/o getting too personal, how exactly the Program worked to help you resolve your issues? Just go hypothetical for a moment and describe a problem you never had and how the Program would work to correct it.

I feel it was all a learning expereince. Learning ot trust myself, love myself, be confident, structure my time so I dotn get bored and do stupid stuff, stand up for who i am, was a great thing for me.

This seems very contradictory to me. Also very familiar. We were told the same things, verbatem. We were confined and had all of our personal choices made for us. And we were pretty well coerced into accepting a very shameful, dim view of ourselves (which could only be redeemed by working the Program). But we were told (and required to state) that, somehow, this was teaching us how to make choices, plan our time and love ourselves.

I think teaching a kid to respect themselves and to liek who they are is not a bad thing to do. But if oyu do it in such a way as they are forced to accept it because of consequences then the message gets lost. It is true that if you dont do certain things the way they tell you to you dont get to move foreward. Not all the time, but wiht home contracts, seminars, rules, ect that is true. In therapy I didnt have that constriction.

So what if you had had the therapy w/o the rest of the Program (and, btw, I don't think regular therapy is anywhere near as easily available in other WWASP programs as you ladies describe at CCM)

Now I liked Discovery and Focus. I like dthe processses.  iliked the thigns I learned about myself. And the facilitator I had didnt choose people out. If they wanted to leave they left, but she knew not everyone would do it just the way they were supposed to and she wanted everyone to have the opportunity to learn. I liked that. But I feel everyone should be able to do a seminar the way they feel will work for them in order to get the lesson.  Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes sense to me. But I don't think it makes any sense at all to the people who run these programs. They state outright, over and over again, that you have to force a bad kid (excuse me, troubled teen) to do right.

I am not sure if CCM does that anymore (sends kids to jamaica) I know they stopped doind that before I graduated. They could have started it up again. If you find info on it, will oyu let me know?

It's hard to imagine that they've seen the light and changed their ways. More likely, since TB is getting such bad press lately, they're just using a different facility. And CCM or WWASP wouldn't be the agent of that transfer, it would be done by contract between the parent and the other program. But I'd bet good money they're still doing the same thing. If I come accross something concrete, I'll probably post it. Or someone else will.

I can see it from your angle Antigen. I admit the truth that it isnt perfect. But I just cant say that I felt abused there. Even the girls that agree it wasnt perfect agree wiht me on that. Kids getting sent to a horrible other program isnt abuse going on in CCM.

Well, that's about like the difference between murder and hiring a hit man.

Thats on Ken Kays shoulders adn the parents. When my mom felt shakey about anything going on in the program, she made it clear to the people that if she didnt agree with it it wasnt goign to happen. i remember a disagreement between her and the family rep and she almost pulled me to another group. I was not happy abou that. I got to know those girls and they knew me. To pull me out woudl have been a huge mistake. But my mom was on top of it. Adn she came to regulary check it out to make sure I wasnt beign abused.



Amanda



"There are two lasting bequests we can give our children. One is roots. The other is wings."

-Hodding Carter Jr."

Did you know about all that while you were there? One of the really insidious aspects of the way they did it at Straight was to never let on that any decision had anything to do w/ the parents. A kid might stay on first phase for 6 months or a year and, every day, be told that it was their fault for not working the Program. Generally, they'd get frustrated and misbehave in some way, thereby supporting the illusion. But a lot of them found out later (if they ever were able to have a civil discussion w/ their parents, that is) that they didn't move up because the parent refused to comply in some way. Then there were the very wealthy or politically connected families who's kids got the easy ride.

If All it takes is an infinite number of monkeys with type writers, then how come there's no Shakespeare coming out of AOL?
-- Anonymous

[Anonymous]

Well, intersting post. They watched you go to the bathroom? Did many kids cut themselves at your facility? I cant recall any self mutilation. I remember one of my roomates locked herself up in the bathroom and drank withc hazel and shampoo. But not many self mutilations. Now as much of an advocate I am of pot, it is possible to have marijuana withdrawls.

This is part of a book of my husbands called "Cannabis Cultivation" by Mel Thomas.

"A change in heart rate and blood pressure can present serious problems for soem patients, but cannabis has no proven long term helath risks associated wiht its use and has no serious potential for dependancy. However, withdrawl symptoms have been observed. In one study, subjects were given very high doses of oral THC: 180 to 210 mg per day for 10 to 20 days, (equivilent to smoking 9 to 10. 2% THC cigarettes per day). Once cannabis use stopped, the subjects were irritable and suffered mild insomnia, runny nose, sweating and decreased appetite."
I know that his excuse for self mutilation was probably not true. No where is there evidence that withdrawl from pot will make you suicidal or anything. But when my husband and I stopped smoking pot when I got pregnant, he suffered HUGE mood swings, he was depressed, ect. I think it was more his psychological addiction as he uses pot to ignore his feelings about his past. But I have never seen him like that except when he dosnt smoke. He has been smoking alsmost every day since he was 12 so that probably has alot to do wiht it too. Im sure more chronic users expereince stronger effects when they stop.

Well I feel mixed about the responsible wihtout a chice thing. On the one hand, it is goo dto learn how to be responsible. Like when your a kid and oyur parents give you responsiblilty. that isnt really a choice. I know I never chose to take out the trash or whatever. But I still learned the basic lesson. It is good to take responsibility for your self and for your actions. Regardelss wethere or not you were told to do something, being responsible is doing whatever task your put to to the best of your ability. Like with work responsibility. Even if someone else dosnt do their job very well, I will be responsible and do my job great anyway. Even if my boss told me I didnt hav eot do somathing, I woudl do it to show inititative and to show I am reliable. In the past, i woudl have just did the minimum to get by and done nothing unless I was told to. I learned in the program that to be a responsible person sometimes you have to do what is right regardless of if it is mandatory or not. I was put in situations where I had the freedom to make choices for myself. Like I said, I dont feel it was alot of freedom but Im sure its more than any other program offers.

Synannon method?

I agree. If your life isnt out of control to the point where you feel you need help, the program is goign to be inneffective.

I feel the freedom I got in the higher phases helped alot. but it wasnt enough. the college program let the girls go basically live in the real world. No uniforms, no bed time, no what oyu cna and cannot watch or listen to, ect. They went grocery shopping, went to college, lived at a duplex. the only thing similar to the program was they slept there and had group Mon-Fri. But group was more laid back and the rules were too. Ask Ashley. She did it and said it helped her alot.

I dotn talk to Jan. Come to think of it i wouldnt really know how to get ahold of her.

True they probably think it is fine and dandy to do one thing and tell others not to do that. they probably dont even care about the recovery that happens in the program. They just want ot make money.

I agree that seminars can help. I had good experiences wiht mine and thought even if I wasnt in the program I probably woudl go to just learn something new. In the past I woudl blame alot of other peopel for my unhappiness. I was also very low on the self esteem and would let peopel treat me however they wanted to. I woudl die before I stood up for myself. I felt like I was really stupid because I was bad at math and felt I woudl just rather not try something than fail at it. Those are a few anyway. Now after the program I know I am responsible for my attitude. I know it is ok to feel down and angry and all that, but I learned it is my choice if I want to continue feeling that way or change my attitude and no one can do that but me. That fact has been reiterated after the program too in my life. But the program is where i first realized it. I know now that when I dont try somethign just because I might fail, I am already setting myself up to fail. I know I am good at what I want ot do. i have confidence in myself now and know that my life has direction. There is no reason to believe i am not good enough or smart enough to try it. A BIG thing now is I dont let peopel treat me badly. If I feel I am being disrespectd or talked down to, i wont hang out wiht that person. i refuse now to place myself around peopel who are negative and false. Life is too short. I feel I am worth something now and feel that anyone not willing to see that and give to a relationship wiht me is out of the car. I do have friends who talk to me abou tgheir problems and get negative, but I try to help them come up wiht a solution. Thats anothe rporblem I had and still kind of do, is I caretake peopel alot. I try to make them better or happier and sacrafice my own happines for them. i have been workign on that particularly wih tmy husband and my friends. But I learned how not to caretake in the program. It is so important for me to look out for myself first. If I feel I am not in a good place, it owuld be wrong of me and wrong for me to try to help anyone else. Does that make sense?

Oh I never had a dim view of myself. i realized I made mistakes, but Im human. I realized I needed to change certain things if I wanted to be happier, but I didnt feel it was impossible because I was bad or anything. I feel the last phase of my program when I got the most freedom was the biggest learning expereince for me. The very beggining was too.

We had group therapy every day and individual therapy 1-2 times a week, depending. Is that not what other places do? I know perrigaud said at CASA she had no therapy at all. I tried therapy wihtout the rest of the program. It didnt work for me. Fo rsome reason therapy in the program and after the program was the most effective it ever had been.

My therapist told me of the family rep and my moms dissagreement. it was about her not being able to talk to me on the phone. Finally she got to after arguing wiht my therapist and rep for two weeks. I told my therapist I didnt what ot switch groups. To do what he could to convince her I needed to stay with my group> so I talked to her and told her I was fine, that I needed to stay wiht my group. No one told me to do that. I liked my friends in my gorup and felt I was making progress. I told her I was happy and ok and I would talk to her soon. After that she came to see me. i wasnt able to see her, but she could tell jsut by the fact I was walking wihtout staring at the floor, I was actually (gasp) smiling, I was no longer pale and skinny cuz of the drugs and the eating disorder. I was happy adn she kenw it. We have that connection where she can just tell about me. I knew about all my parents issues wiht the program.

Amanda

"An opressive government is more to be feared then a tiger."
- Confucius

[Perrigaud]

That is exactly why I invited her on this forum. As well as why I'm around on these forums. There are many things I don't know about. Learning new things is important to me. I believe that it is important to know what is going on all aspects. I'm not here to say that the ones who say they have been abused are liars. I am here to gain understanding on the other side of the fence. Oh and to offer insight.

[Anonymous]

Sound familiar???

THE FACILITATOR?S UNEXPECTED BEHAVIOR:

 At one point, he used a large white writing pad placed on an easel in the front of the room, to write comments and illustrate points. After informing us that the object of the seminar was to find our Magical Inner Child, he drew a small circle and surrounded it with three other circles.   The inner circle represented the Magical Child, the next circle layer represented ?Fixed Beliefs?, the next layer represented ?Fixed Emotions? and the outer layer represented ?Fixed Behavior ? Image? He used words like ?protection? and ?ego? as well.  He stated that the purpose of the Discovery Seminar was to penetrate all these outer circles to reach the Magical Child, which was hidden in all of us. I was rather perplexed about the relevance of this to me.  I had done an extensive amount of individual and group therapy, read numerous self-help books and done lots of inner growth work.  He seemed to be assuming that I did not have this knowledge.  Considering that Teen Help had never asked for my personal background and growth experience before asking me to attend this seminar, I realized Don couldn?t possibly know very much about me and what work I had already done.  I was sure I could find something of value in what he was saying and so continued to pay attention.

He then began to talk about concepts of right and wrong.   To illustrate his point, he singled me out, walking halfway across the room, to the outer isle seat where I was sitting.  He stood so close to me, I was very uncomfortable.  I had feelings of intimidation.  I didn?t want to act on those feelings, so I stood up and faced him squarely and said, ?You are in my space.?    I had put my hand on my hip, when I said that.  Instead of stepping out of my space, he put his hand on his hip and mocked me with his expression and gesture and leaned closer to me.  He did not step back.   I am about 5?4? tall and he was about 6?5? tall and broad across the chest.  I had a tremendous urge to take my hand and gently push him away from me until he was at an appropriate distance, but I decided to wait and see why he was doing this.  I was fully aware that my husband would stand up in my defense if I gave him an indication I wanted help.

I said, ?You are also much bigger than I am?.  I had a full sense of the power of Don?s personality and also of his physical strength when he was standing this close to me.  Suddenly, he changed from a mocking behavior to the aggressive stance he had described earlier as gangster posture.  He pointed his finger at my face, about ½? inch away from right between my eyes.  He said forcefully, ?I could rob you.?  He paused, looking me straight in the eyes with menace; ?I could take away your woman hood.?  He paused for a response and when I gave none, he said, ?I could kill you.?  

I looked back at him and felt the full force of his words.  I knew that this facilitator knew nothing about my history.  Others had confronted me before with this full intent.  I looked him in the eyes and knew he was indeed capable of doing these things.  I stood my ground, but I was shaken to the core.   He had changed his behavior so quickly, I had had no warning and I was frozen in a state of shock.  There were 90 other people in the room watching and no one said a word.  He shook his finger at me and leaned closer, raising his voice to say, ?and could I say I was right??   I was convinced that he could indeed believe that he was right in doing these things.   I never wavered in my eye contact, feeling that this was indeed a dangerous man that I could not afford to show fear to.  I answered softly, but with firmness, ?Yes, you could?.   He stared at me for a few more minutes in silence.   I stared back.

Then he broke the tension by laughing.  He dropped his aggressive stance and leaned closer, saying, ?You are welcome in my space anytime,? in a slightly suggestive manner.   I was shocked at his uninvited familiarity and said nothing, neither did I laugh or move back.  Actually, there was nowhere for me to move back to without stepping on my husband who was still sitting in the next seat.

Don turned around and walked over to the front of the room again.  He continued speaking, as if there was nothing abnormal about his behavior.    He went on to prove a point that even murderers can kill people and say they are right, believing it entirely.    He said, ?even a serial killer has a support group.?  I thought of Hitler and his support group and realized that Don had a valid point.   Don then made the bold and unexpected conclusion that this proved that there was no right or wrong.   From there he went on to tell us how words could be powerful shapers of reality and that we would be better to use the words ?working? and ?not working?.[/b]  

http://www.pianofinders.com/es/breakingthesecrecy2.htm

[Anonymous]

Hmmm... "working and not "working"

Ever heard of "double-speak?"