They System Is the Whole Problem and You Are Accountable

[coco]

you make some very valid points.  In retrospect, it probably was not a good idea to merge the responsibilities of the therapist to include the former RC's responsibilities in providing feedback to the parents.  

I personally did not feel that this was a huge negative for our student.  The brutality of the raps and some of the workshops were concerns of mine.

[Anonymous]

"The brutality of the raps were concerns of mine..."


I would also add the brutality of some of the students to others were a definate negative.  You may be referring to the dorm situation where the kids who were causing chaos in their dorms, were all then housed together where they could bully one another.  They weren't too happy with that.

[Anonymous]

Antigen,
 Are you familiar with the work of Alice Miller?
http://alice-miller.com/sujet/eng.htm

Here is a link to  her site.  I  guess that you might appreciate some aspects of her work.  

I read her earlier books years ago( THE DRAMA OF THE GIFTED CHILD and FOR YOUR OWN GOOD), but have not yet had the opportunity to read some of her later books, including the recent THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE.  I particularly found her reflections on "poisonous pedagogy" in FOR YOUR OWN GOOD thought provoking.  While I am not aware that she addresses the role of economics, poverty, the transistion from pre-industrial to industrial to post-industrial societies, etc. when addressing larger systems issues (her area is early childhood), her work looks at the ramifications of some of our culture's basic assumptions about children & child rearing, not only on the child, but on the larger social systems and on our collective global history.  Interesting stuff.... Bound to stir up conflict in our "law and order" times and stimulate dialogue.

Antigen wrote:

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of it's victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busy-bodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those that torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802808689/circleofmianithem' target='_new'> C.S. Lewis, God In The Dock

"

[Anonymous]

The brutality of the raps and some of the workshops were concerns of mine."

Me, too.  But the way things are set up, it was hard to get a lot of details about what was really happening in Raps and workshops.  

This concern comes under what I think of as "program philosophy and techniques", basic assumptions and values about human nature, dignity, etc.  I guess I was surprised because I was familliar with Yalom's curative factors, group therapy, support groups, and various group learning or growth modalities, the need for "safety" in a group setting, the person in the role of leader/facilitator being RESPONSIBLE for establishing group safety, healthy boundaries & group norms, fair fighting, clean communication, etc.  It really gave me something to think about.

I was unaware of any Synanon influence in technique in the teen help field at all until I discussed some of my concerns with an authority figure there....the "transfusion of clinical elements into the program" was progressing, this authority felt, but being hampered somewhat by old timers who had come up when Synanon methods were viewed as the most helpful means to an end.  This person felt that things would get better. This Synanon reference was a bit confusing to me as I didn't think there was anybody THAT OLD there.  This comment did help me to start to make sense of what I was expereincing, though, so I went back and did some reading--   Never having been a proponent of the "hot seat", brutal confrontations, etc., or methods that tore down defenses - I think they are unsafe and don't work-I had to start thinking about whether this was the best choice for us.  Whether things were bound to improve or not, I had one student that I was responsible for at that one point in time.  I rather like skill building techniques and an approach based on aligning with positive behaviors myself.  .

[Anonymous]

How is your child doing?  Hope your son/daughter is doing well."

A lot better, thank you.
We found a home based program, respectful to us and student, that helped us stabalize as a family system, stay calmer and more focused on the positives during challenging times, and come up with positive interventions based on student's needs & motivations.  This program also advocated for student in the larger community which really helped a lot.  We also got support for dealing with our own fears.

How is your student?

[Anonymous]

did this program staff actually mention the Synanon reference to the program at CEDU?

 From what I have heard from my student is that they were very confrontational and defenses were torn down.  My student is reluctant to talk about it much, which is probably fairly common.  I hope that as time goes by, my child doesn't experience some of the traumatic memories that many on this forum describe.  

My "student" is doing well, thank God.  Happy to be home, more mature and appreciative of a good life in general.

[Antigen]

on 2005-04-22 06:24:00, Anonymous wrote
While we were concerned about the disequilibrium in the system caused by the various changes during our student's stay, in hindsight it was actually a wonderful opportunity for us to really view the program philosophy and techniques in action under challenging circumstances with our student and see if it was consistent with our family values and goals. I respect that for many the program was experienced as a positive; however, our experience was otherwise. I'm glad we were able to figure that out.

On 2005-04-22 06:56:00, coco wrote:

"you make some very valid points.  In retrospect, it probably was not a good idea to merge the responsibilities of the therapist to include the former RC's responsibilities in providing feedback to the parents.  

So then it would have been better the old way so parents would stay in the dark?

Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light and leading by contrast.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Antigen]

Not to be a downer or anything, but someone recently posted the most amazing bit of poetic prose I've seen in a long time. And it speaks eloquently to some of the more common after effects of the Synanon method:

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=7&2

It's not just the nightmares. I can relate to the above essay in frighteningly many ways. I cried when I read it and asked my husband to read it too. I'm not sure if I hope he did and I don't think I'll remember to ask him next time I think of it.

When you tear away the very foundations of someone's personality and leave them to rebuild a new one, the new one is just never the same.  

Emotions rule the world; Is it any wonder that it's so mucked up?!
http://fornits.com/rates.htm' target='_new'>Bill Warbis

[Anonymous]

On 2005-04-22 19:55:00, Antigen wrote:

"Not to be a downer or anything, but someone recently posted the most amazing bit of poetic prose I've seen in a long time. And it speaks eloquently to some of the more common after effects of the Synanon method:



http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=7&2
"I have a Straight staff member living in my head. Somewhere the programming has manifested as a separate nasty critical voice that questions EVERYTHING I do. Sanity begins to slip away. I can't make a decision. I'm afraid I'll make the wrong one. Hell, I'm afraid I'll make the right one, and life might get better. Then there will be something in my life that can be taken away again. I can't afford to care about anything. Only hatred is real.. Only *I* am real. But I don't know what *I* am. I define myself by my failures.. and limited successes. I define myself by my intelligence.. and having all the answers. My biggest fear is the judgement that will follow my saying "I don't know". I never commit to anything that will encourage that. I never try new things unless I have a better than 95% guarantee that it will work to my favor. I sit on the outside watching life go by.. ......"



It's not just the nightmares. I can relate to the above essay in frighteningly many ways. I cried when I read it and asked my husband to read it too. I'm not sure if I hope he did and I don't think I'll remember to ask him next time I think of it.



When you tear away the very foundations of someone's personality and leave them to rebuild a new one, the new one is just never the same.  

Emotions rule the world; Is it any wonder that it's so mucked up?!
http://fornits.com/rates.htm' target='_new'>Bill Warbis

"

Thank you, Antigen.  I think this says a lot.

[Antigen]

On 2005-04-22 22:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

Thank you, Antigen. I think this says a lot.

I would be lying if I said that didn't come accross as "So, you're that crazy, huh?"

When Plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
--Fredric Bastiat

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

[Anonymous]

Oh, please, please, please no... I am so sorry because that is NOT what I mean.  I mean that treating people harshly, tearing them down, especially developing young people and children, results in these painful introjects - not part of the true core self- that make life hell and continues the torment and abuse internally.  I mean I agree with you and I agree with Alice Miller that we have to let go of the "poisonous pedagogy" and learn to educate or socialize or parent or treat all people in a loving, uplifting, humane way.  I mean that I think Synanon methods are evil and damaging. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clear up this misunderstanding.

On 2005-04-22 23:15:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2005-04-22 22:11:00, Anonymous wrote:


Thank you, Antigen. I think this says a lot.

I would be lying if I said that didn't come accross as "So, you're that crazy, huh?

When Plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
--Fredric Bastiat

"

[Antigen]

Thanks for that. I think I was half kidding, but thanks for that.

I don't know about Alice Miller. I looked over her website a little, might see if our library system has any of her books.

I've often described the Synanon method like this. It's like having a jealous, paranoid, overly controling and obsessive spouse, except that you have dozens of them. Because they become more than family to you, like it or not, those voices are on a par w/ things your parents or teachers or other important people drilled into your head. The difference is that you don't have the freedom to reject or color the Program dogma. That's the whole idea behind not looking at or communicating w/ the people around you in Group. Essentially, you're not permitted to converse w/ anyone till you can be trusted to support the dogma.

For example, when I hear my grandfather's often repeated declaration "raising children is like training dogs, firmness and consistency blah, blah, blah..." it comes in the context of how we used to make fun of him for saying things like that. When he died, my brother chose as his momentum grandpa's voice device (he'd had his voice box removed due to cancer and used a sort of vibrator held to his neck to simulate a voice). We had great fun w/ that. I wonder if he still has it?

When staff and Group said demeaning, humiliating things, there was no dissent except your own thoughts, which you had to keep carefully concealed or face confrontation in Group for "having bad thoughts" or a bad attitude or having your awareness up your ass (which I always envisioned as a colonoscopy...  :rofl: it helped).

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The people who ran straight had the best of intentions. I hope they reached their destination.

http://stopsembler.org/' target='_new'>James Lloyd

[Anonymous]

On 2005-04-23 10:28:00, Antigen wrote:


I don't know about Alice Miller. I looked over her website a little, might see if our library system has any of her books.

She's against harsh parenting techniques and child abuse..."poisonous pedagogy" refers to the belief systems that teach parents, teachers, & society that this child abuse is for the "child's own good."

I've often described the Synanon method like this. It's like having a jealous, paranoid, overly controling and obsessive spouse, except that you have dozens of them. Because they become more than family to you, like it or not, those voices are on a par w/ things your parents or teachers or other important people drilled into your head. The difference is that you don't have the freedom to reject or color the Program dogma. That's the whole idea behind not looking at or communicating w/ the people around you in Group. Essentially, you're not permitted to converse w/ anyone till you can be trusted to support the dogma.



For example, when I hear my grandfather's often repeated declaration "raising children is like training dogs, firmness and consistency blah, blah, blah..." it comes in the context of how we used to make fun of him for saying things like that. When he died, my brother chose as his momentum grandpa's voice device (he'd had his voice box removed due to cancer and used a sort of vibrator held to his neck to simulate a voice). We had great fun w/ that. I wonder if he still has it?



When staff and Group said demeaning, humiliating things, there was no dissent except your own thoughts, which you had to keep carefully concealed or face confrontation in Group for "having bad thoughts" or a bad attitude or having your awareness up your ass (which I always envisioned as a colonoscopy...  :rofl: it helped).

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The people who ran straight had the best of intentions. I hope they reached their destination.

http://stopsembler.org/' target='_new'>James Lloyd

"

I think what you are saying here points out how and why these methods used by programs that isolate children from the outside world are so dangerous. All of us have some painful introjects and internal critics, all/most of us have suffered some abuse from someone growing up, all of us have suffered under - at times- some awfully stupid, inhumane bad ideas about child rearing or disciplining - "poisonous pedagogoy"- at home or at school.  But the use of these harsh, demeaning, relationship & trust breaking  techniques in the name of enlightened "whole" child education and treatment in such a way that a child cannot "reality check", escape, or get information about himself and the world from other sources is torture and brainwashing.  It is still hard for me to wrap my mind around the possibility that this is so wide-spread...

No one can know unless the victims are able to speak and for some I see that they just can't talk about it for a few years.  
I applaud your courage and vision as a Witness, and your fighting spirit as a survivor.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-04-22 16:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

"did this program staff actually mention the Synanon reference to the program at CEDU?



 From what I have heard from my student is that they were very confrontational and defenses were torn down.  My student is reluctant to talk about it much, which is probably fairly common.  I hope that as time goes by, my child doesn't experience some of the traumatic memories that many on this forum describe.  



My "student" is doing well, thank God.  Happy to be home, more mature and appreciative of a good life in general.  "

Not program staff or therapist, but the one you would call if you had a major issue.....dropped the word "Synanon" in our conversation.  I didn't know about their "success" with heroin addicts, I just somewhat remembered seeing a  news story about the cult church and the rattlesnake in the mailbox along time ago.  I had to research them to figure out what this person might be talking about as far as methods and approach.....

My student has bad dreams, not as much lately....dealing productively with the previous trauma that led to initial self-destructive acting out at present and working on making a life.  When student wants to talk about it --rarely does --- I talk, but try not to probe.  A person needs to be in control of how much they can handle or stir up at one time.  Summer vacation is best, when there is no school.  It is common for young people to postpone dealing with traumatic issues when they are needing their energy for developmental leaps.

[Anonymous]

How many more years of HS does your student have?  The academics were not very strong for my student and has some catching up to do. No nightmares, seems fine.