Coach

[Anonymous]

On 2005-02-21 04:42:00, Anonymous wrote:

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On 2005-02-21 01:14:00, Anonymous wrote:


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I'm really left here scratching my head trying to reconcile how I've been real legit good psyhcologists, and yet David Gilcrease could develop this to HELP people as a psychologist.

Gilcrease isn't a psychologist.  He is a software engineer."

Actually, he openly despises psychologists."

Probably because any sane psychologist can see what his program is all about-- abuse and destruction.

[chi3]

I'm telling you guys, you have absolutely no idea how freaky this whole seminar business really is. You have all these parents who really do want to do right by their kids, these parent facilitators who believe the program is the answer to all of life's problems, and then you have the slick facilitator. The facilitator is very smug and dominant, immediately sets the tone that all the parents are hopeless idiots, and that they have all the solutions to fix your kid up in a jiff. Tht's why these parents are so easily brainwashed. They are open to all suggestions, because they feel they have failed as parents, and if they don't "get" this program, their kid's will be deadorinjail. Well, all you have when you look past the bullshit is a tough, well-paid used car salesman. I have seen less euphoria at a all day baptism at the local baptist church. These people are good. So good, it scares the shit out of you to see these freshly minted Stepford families.

[Anonymous]

There's another technique used by some programs.
The facilitator comisserates with parent, validating all the fears, concerns, and guilt.
They reiterate how smart the parent was to choose their program where their wayward child will receive care and protection 24/7/365; which the parent can't provide.
Peppered here and there might be a parenting tip or two, but the real goal of the workshop is to create a strong bond between parent and program. The first of many wedges that will only increase the divide between parent and child, except perhaps on the a surface, superficial level.

[Nihilanthic]

Where's Perrigaud?

I am sick unto death of obscure English towns that exist seemingly for the sole accommodation of these so-called limerick writers -- and even sicker of their residents, all of whom suffer from physical deformities and spend their time dismembering relatives at fancy dress balls.
--Editor of the Limerick Times
(Limerick, Ireland)

[Anonymous]

http://www.fearturnstohope.parentshelpingteens.com/

just another wonderful parent and lovely results.

[Antigen]

Sure! From the adoptive mother's pov, her 'problem' was solved. But what about the kid? How did this transformation take place? And is this result really any different from what happens to cockey young men who land up in state prisons for a few years?

A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another; shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement
http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=FF7485&aid=10247' target='_new'>Thomas Jefferson  

[Nihilanthic]

Ginger, if they're in a program, they're not "deadinsaneorinJAIL"

Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.
--Friedrich Nietzsche

[Deborah]

Some would argue that while incarcerated in a program that they were indeed in jail- worse than jail in many cases, and that they questioned their sanity at times. Programs do have a way of fostering confusion and madness with their bait and punish methods.

I wondered the other day, if they ever do any group or individual hypnosis on the kids. Can anyone with experience on the inside talk to that? Could be ONE explanation for why it takes with some and not others.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-02-24 19:46:00, Deborah wrote:

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Some would argue that while incarcerated in a program that they were indeed in jail- worse than jail in many cases, and that they questioned their sanity at times."

And let's not forget that they sometimes end up dead - either while in the program or when they get out.

[Perrigaud]

Yes? I'm here. Curious to hear my opinion? Here it is. I've actually staffed a parent seminar. Can't say that any of that stuff happened. I staffed with Jan. I like Jan and always have. Anyhow, she gave the messege to the parents that blaming themselves and putting themselves through guilt was unhealthy. She also relayed the message that the family is in it together. For example my family and I had a pattern of how we dealt with me. My mom would get mad at my misbehavior and threaten to tell my dad. My dad would then tell me every little detail that I did was "wrong" and that I was a bad kid. At this time I'd begin to yell at him. I'd tell him to F$%& off. He'd get angry and keep belittling me. I would attack my mom verbally. My dad would get angrier and try to strike me. I would retaliate and strike him back. My brother would hide or leave the house. This was a daily occurance.
Jan explained that no one is perfect and we all have our patterns.
I can see how some people would think that the facilitators are belittling them. I'm sure it did happen as well. However, there are times (not 100% of the time) where people can't accept constructive criticism. Let's face it the truth hurts and no one wants to be told that the way they are going about in an event in their lives isn't the best method to use. People are very sensitive when it comes to private issues such as past, family problems, and self ailments.
I guess that's why I didn't feel like I was belittled. I listened to what was being brought up. If I felt it didn't pertain to me or that it simply wasn't my style I would let it go.

[Nihilanthic]

Perrigaud, people not accepting constructive criticism isnt an excuse for a method that is designed (at least on the surface) to create a pathological effect in them, and it DOES have that effect in a lot of them.  

Maybe some people just cant! Well guess what? Dont do it in a gigantic seminar to have humiliation and other nasty enotions (and a group dynamic) come into effect! Psychotherapists do it in confidence for reason. Also, I really dont like how seminars often seem to play the group dynamic to the advantage of getting things into peoples minds and manipulating them.

Speaking of confidence, yes, you wont tell us of what happened. But it doesnt matter, because plenty of other people will. The secrecy involved is one of my big complaints... I'm sure you can see why.

Anywho, you are an exceptionally strong person in a lot of ways. You are also able to just stand and let the wave of bullshit and emotions flow around you while everyone else gets caught up in it. But the one thing I do get a feeling of is that the whole POINT is to get caught up in it, and when you give up ego functions to the facilitator your bullshit detector and ability to choose is effectively gone.

The truth does hurt. Most people DONT want to be told the path they're going down isnt best. HOW you say things and WHY matters just as much as WHAT you say, however. Humiliation is a excellent tool for manipulation and regression. However, it has no place in therapy.

No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the sources of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679737898/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>P. J. O'Rourke

[Perrigaud]

Niles,
  For someone so intelligent you can be so dense at times. How many times have I told you to ask me whatever questions you have? Countless. Stop saying the seminars are a big secret. Ask and you'll get answers.
Did I say that humiliation was used. People not accepting constructive criticism does not mean that humiliation and manipulation was used. You're assuming again. No, humiliation is a choice. By this I mean that I went into the seminars knowing full well that I was going to be disclosing some past. Now, at first it was hard. But as time went on I realized that I'm a freaking human being. We all make mistakes and sometimes they are big ones. The problem with people (not just troubled teens) is that they don't forgive themselves. Issues? Are you going to call it manipulation to have a child share his school project with his peers when you know full well he has an issue with speaking in front of crowds? The world doesn't stop for people who are fragile about certain topics. Most of the time people are fragile due to the shame they carry on themselves. In doing so they are set off easily.
Family, issues, and such are sensitive. Any kind of criticism that is expressed will not be regarded well. We live in a candy coated world. Seminars abusive? Yes depends on who. I didn't feel abused or manipulated. I felt (ready for this?) helped. Not entirely but it did help.
Did you not read what I said? Jan was sure to let the parents know that they aren't bad people. She didn't belittle them. Now, where do you see the abuse in that? Cause she criticised them? Please, if that's the case then there are a lot of weak people. Candy coated world.  [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-02-26 02:07 ]

[chi3]

Perri,

I have to agree with you in that I didn't feel like I was being criticized or called a bad parent. The reason for that being, I know that I'm not. i don't need anyone to make any judgements about what i have or haven't done. However, that said, I was more offended and distressed by what said for some of the people who were there. Some of these parents took this very badly, and were constantly doubting the job they had done as far as raising their children. My only point was, this facilitator person did not know any of us, yet was willing to upset and hurt many people with her words who may be permanently scarred from this. The way I understand it, all of the facilitators have different approaches to how they conduct the seminar. I was merely saying I felt the one we had was not a positive influence. I am glad to hear the seminars helped you. I have a very good friend who swears by them. I agree with Niles that these open-forum emotion dredgings are not for everyone. I think most people would gain so much more in an one-one situation. Preferably staffed by a licensed Psychologist. I can't be comfortable a bout all these people digging into their innermost thought and feelings in a huge room filled with strangers, who no one knows how they will react, yet the person "in charge" is not even a licensed trained professional.

[Perrigaud]

Yep. It can be hard for most people. Every facilitator is different. They do have their own ways. But to let some stranger tell you some things you know are untrue get to you is to give them the power. No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. It it isn't true then why listen to it? It's people like that that ruin themselves more than others.

[Nihilanthic]

Perrigaud, the whole seminars being a big secret thing isnt about YOU keeping it a secret, its about it being a total surprise for people in a program the first time they go into one, and that 99% of parents signing up for a program dont know jack about the programs. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear before. You also said "Yes? I'm here. Curious to hear my opinion? Here it is. I've actually staffed a parent seminar. Can't say that any of that stuff happened." Sorry if I misunderstood that.

Now, you say how you feel about what someone says to you is a choice. Sure, everyone has a threshold of tolerance. But we all also know that nobody is invulnerable. Given enough time (and preventing the subject from escaping or putting cottonballs in his ears) I could make him or her VERY mad at me, or feel very helpless. When you bring a group dynamic into it, its even easier to influence people.

If it comes down to people being too vulnerable when the point of the whole experience is to HELP them then why not make it into a case where it does something theyre not supposed to be influenced by? And why not make them "stronger" (if its even possible) before this?

Now, about the criticism. Yeah a lot of people dont handle it very well. WHAT it is isnt what I'm  trying to draw attention to. Its *HOW*. Still with me?

Your bodylanguage, tone of voice, volume, and how you do it (in a group with a bunch of people or in a psychotherapist's couch in his or her office) can have a big effect. Accepting critism is something everyone has to learn how to do, even our leaders and authority figures :grin: but if you criticise in the wrong way it can hurt or piss off someone.

I'm not saying people dont have to deal with this, but I am saying seminars are not proven to be necessary of effective (in the good way) by psychologists and their research peer-reviewed yet. People can deal with this with conventional psychotherapy, or some other method that doesnt involve a seminar that reeks of LGATs. It seems like you're saying its their fault for not working with the seminar, and/or they're too weak. Who said seminars were necessary or even all that great at all except for the programs and David Gilcrease?

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.

--Charles Austin Beard