G.T. Now

[Anonymous]

Sara, why can't you admit that you are wrong?  Addiction is a disease.  And you will never understand this because YES, it is so hard to just put the bottle down.  nearly impossible.  I really don't expect you to understand this, because obviously you are not afected, but this doesn't make you right.

May 26, 2004 -- A new study links a gene to alcohol addiction -- backing up a long-recognized pattern showing that alcoholism runs in families.

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-02-02 09:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Sara, why can't you admit that you are wrong?  Addiction is a disease.  And you will never understand this because YES, it is so hard to just put the bottle down.  nearly impossible.  I really don't expect you to understand this, because obviously you are not afected, but this doesn't make you right.



May 26, 2004 -- A new study links a gene to alcohol addiction -- backing up a long-recognized pattern showing that alcoholism runs in families.



"

You know, maybe I do have a personal stake in this.  Here are the alcoholics in my immediate family:

1. Maternal Grandfather
2. Uncle T - Mom's Brother
3. Mother

2 of 3 of my Grandfather's kids were alcoholics.

4. Paternal Granfather
5. Paternal Grandmother
6. Father
7. Aunt E - Father's sister
8. Uncle D - Father's brother
9. Aunt M - Father's sister

4 of 7 of my paternal grandparent's kids were alcoholics.  2 of my father's four kids are.

Now if this is DEFINITELY an interited disease, how do you account for the people who are not alcoholics?

[GregFL]

Hey, your linked doctor also claims to have found some other interesting things. To wit:

Platelet serotonin-2A receptors: a potential biological marker for suicide behavior.

Peripheral adrenergic receptors in affective illness and schizophrenia

Platelet serotonin-2 receptor binding sites in depression and suicide

Platelet 5HT2 receptors in obsessive-compulsive disorders

Platelet 5HT2 receptors in schizophrenia: effects of illness and neuroleptic treatment.


Platelet serotonin-2A receptors: a potential biological marker for suicide behavior

Adrenergic receptor subtypes in stress-induced behavioral depression.

Potential role of the gene transcription factor cyclic AMP-responsive element binding protein in ethanol withdrawal-related anxiety. J Pharmacol Exp Ther 288:866-878.


 Involvement of the cyclic AMP-responsive element binding protein gene transcription factor in genetic preference for alcohol drinking behavior


Apparently almost all abherrent behavior according to him is genetic.

Now, here is how it works. He does his research. He publishes his finding. It is peer reviewed. The experiments are repeated by other scientists. Then it becomes accepted science. until then, it is just clinical research. Inconclusive.  This is from your own HERE IT IS! link....

"Findings published in the December 2004 issue of Alcoholism: Clinical & Experimental Research indicate...

Get that term...it has meaning..  Clinical & experimental Research indicate?

Okay, lets go a step further...

For this study, participants comprised 38 students (20 male, 18 female) at the University of Colorado, 21 to 29 years of age, who indicated drinking patterns classified as moderate to heavy. Participants were either homozygous for the A allele (n=23) or heterozygous (n=15). Each received intravenous doses of alcohol that were designed to cause breath alcohol concentration (BAC) levels of .02, .04, and .06. Researchers measured subjective intoxication, stimulation, sedation, and mood states at baseline and at each of the three BAC levels.....Results indicate that individuals with the G allele had higher subjective feelings of intoxication, stimulation, sedation, and happiness across trials as compared to participants with the A allele.


Okay, now a study of 38 young adults who are given intoxicating levels of alcohol and then interviewed may be conclusive to you, and admittely magazine articles may publish it as fact ,but in science it is known as a clinical trial.  It is not "proof".

I know that is a little beyond what your field of knowledge.. but nevertheless, that is the case. He has many hurdles yet to cross before these finding are accepted as medical and scientific reality.

When and if they are, I it will be interesting, and what it will conclude if true, is that certain people get drunk easier than others and therefore are more prone to alcoholism. It still won't Prove alcoholism is a disease.

Get it?


Probably not.

[Anonymous]

So why do you hate them so much?  Why can't you see that they had no power over their alcoholism?  Where is your compassion?  Why are you so hell bent on your idea?  So, there is conflicting evidence.  You make it sound like I am wrong, when you really can't prove that you are right.  And given the fact that so many of your family are alcoholics, should lend even more credence to my belief.

http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/addiction/ber ... sease.html

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-02-02 09:19:00, Anonymous wrote:

"So why do you hate them so much?  Why can't you see that they had no power over their alcoholism?  
Where is your compassion?  Why are you so hell bent on your idea?  So, there is conflicting evidence.  You make it sound like I am wrong, when you really can't prove that you are right.  And given the fact that so many of your family are alcoholics, should lend even more credence to my belief.

First of all - WHERE did I say I hate them??  You make no sense.

[Anonymous]

And you will NOT prove that it isn't a disease!

Sara, the fact that not everyone in your family is not an alcoholic does not mean that it is not inherited.  I thought you were smarter than that.  Just because Uncle Billy is bald doesn't mean his son will be bald.

[GregFL]

On 2005-02-02 09:19:00, Anonymous wrote:

"So why do you hate them so much?  Why can't you see that they had no power over their alcoholism?  Where is your compassion?  Why are you so hell bent on your idea?  So, there is conflicting evidence.  You make it sound like I am wrong, when you really can't prove that you are right.  And given the fact that so many of your family are alcoholics, should lend even more credence to my belief.



http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/addiction/ber ... sease.html



"

Now i hate them?

Oh fuck, I am starting to get it...you just have no experience in debate, do you?  You don't understand how this works.

Okay, I am going to help you here.  What you normally do in these conversations is shift the subject by attacking the person, which has caused people to lash back..

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/attack.php

Then you appeal to authority with websites that don't have the scientific background you have been burdened with providing..

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/aa.php

What you do when you tell us basically "everyone knows it is a disease, therefore prove it is not is called an appeal to popularity

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/pop.php


and what you are doing above envoking my lack of compassion is called an appeal to pity.

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ap.php

and with these statements you are again confusing who has the burden of proof in this converastion:


 "You make it sound like I am wrong, when you really can't prove that you are right."

"And you will NOT prove that it isn't a disease!"


I offer this information in the hopes that it helps your future online endeavors.

[Anonymous]

I say hate because you definitly have family issues.  If the disease is so prevelant in your own family and you still cannot see it would tend to make me think you hate them, and don't want to recognize that their disease is beyond there own ability to just say "put the bottle down".

[Anonymous]

Greg, you have not proved anything with your so called scientific data.  I really don't have the experience of debating, you are right.  I am in this conversation because I am passionate about it, not because I like to argue (like you). You are a no-it-all asshole.

[GregFL]

On 2005-02-02 09:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I say hate because you definitly have family issues.  If the disease is so prevelant in your own family and you still cannot see it would tend to make me think you hate them, and don't want to recognize that their disease is beyond there own ability to just say "put the bottle down"."

well, I love my family all of them.

explain this since you are so fond bringing the conversation into the realm of anecedotal information.

My stepfather for 30 years was a happy functional drunk from the bottle alcoholic. He mainained a job, a house, a wife until the day he retired, however  Vodka bottles were hidden in his trunk, in the back of the toilet, everywhere. He would constantly be drunk on vodka and he didn't even bother to mix it, not only that, he used cheap POPOFF vodka to save money because he drank so much of it.

 At age 67 he went involuntarily into inpatient TC treatment. He came out severely depressed and has since, and NEVER BEFORE, been medicated with anti depresents.

He stayed "Dry" for about 10 years. Nowdays he has about two glasses of red wine per day. Oh yeah, he is 87 now, and has never gone back to his old ways. HOWEVER, he requires constant depression medication from his stint in stepcraft treatment.

According to the addiction model of alcohol, he should be slugging back vodka again out of the bottle. Why hasnt he?

[GregFL]

On 2005-02-02 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Greg, you have not proved anything with your so called scientific data.  I really don't have the experience of debating, you are right.  I am in this conversation because I am passionate about it, not because I like to argue (like you). You are a no-it-all asshole."

Er, that would be  a Know-it-all asshole.

Just trying to help.

 :grin:

[GregFL]

On 2005-02-02 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Greg, you have not proved anything with your so called scientific data.

And, please get this one...

I HAVE SUBMITTED NONE, ZERO, ZIPPO  scientific data.

You just don't understand. I am Sorry for you and the way you are coming across here. You are way over your head.

[Anonymous]

I guess i need to eat some fish for brain-power at lunch today.

Your grandfather is not an alcoholic.  he is an abuser of alohol.  That is how i explain it.

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-02-02 09:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I say hate because you definitly have family issues.  If the disease is so prevelant in your own family and you still cannot see it would tend to make me think you hate thm, and don't want to recognize that their disease is beyond there own ability to just say "put the bottle down"."

That wasn't the issue.  The issue was: How can you say, in no UNCERTAIN terms that "alcoholism is a disease" - and you're the one who brought up genetics.

I wrote that to you to show you that there ARE uncertain terms, and you blast us for "opinion" yet, all you've given is opinion yourself.

Now, if you must know the deal with my family members - the only TRUE alkies in the bunch are my father's son (my half brother), and my mother - all they do is drink.  They are incapable of holding down jobs, and are essentially fuckups.

All the rest were LABELED alcoholics because at one time or another, they drank a little too much.
With the exception of the two with real drinking problems (borne of self control problems), all the rest put down the bottle, got their shit together, and .. get this....

THEY ALL STILL DRINK!

Yep, that's right - this past Christmas, we all enjoyed wine with our dinner and had some after dinner drinks as well.  On Monday, everyone returned to their lives without guilt, or a bottle in their grasp.  All able to say "enough for me", and we'll do it again sometime.

How do you explain that?

[Anonymous]

That would be because you are such a brainiac loser that is still mad at mommy & daddy for putting you in the SEED.  You are just too much of a pussy to get over your tratment experience.
It is I that feel sorry for you and how you would sound to "normal" people.  You are self-righteous and suffer from a tremendous superiority complex, no doubt hidding the fact that you feel less than.
Face it you are a big pussy that can't let life go on because you think someone wronged you 30 years ago.
I feel sorry for you!