G.T. Now

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-02-01 09:11:00, DC wrote:

"Where is Montgomery County??  Is this suppose to lend to his credibility?"

Does it matter?  There's a Montgomery county in Alabama, Arkasas, Georgia, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, Mississippi, North Carolina, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia.

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2005-02-01 09:02:00, DC wrote:

"Cayo,

As a matter of fact, I do think he is full of shit.  He just confirms your opinion.  He validates what you are saying.  He has no real experience, no life experience.  he is a talking head."

Let's look at the motivations for both points of view.  There is a HUGE incentive for the "talking heads" that promote the alcoholism is a disease theory.  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.  What would this guys motivation be???  And how hard would the "disease theory" people work to keep their opponents quiet?  I mean, if word got out what would all those poor "professionals" do?

Given the choice between dancing pigs and security, people will choose dancing pigs every time.
-- Ed Felton (quoted in www-security about Active-X)

[DC]

I'm sorry, I do not buy your argument that this is some kind of a conspiracy.  Would you listen to yourself??  You people are so paranoid.  
I do not expect you to understand addiction, because none of you are apparently addicts. That is ok.  I know where you are coming from.  You are displeased and bitter about being put in a rehab.  Your experience was just too awful to rise above and resume your life.  Instead you just can't wait until someone like me comes along and writes something positive about an experience which I am currently going through.  You live for these times.  What will you do when I am gone, resort back to crying about what happened to you 25 years ago?  
And while Montgomery Counties across America have opinions on Addiction and Alcoholism, I prefer to listen to the real experts.

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-02-01 09:24:00, DC wrote:

"For all of you unwilling to believe in the DISEASE of addiction, I offer you this link, and can provide many, many more that state that it is in fact a disease.  But then again, maybe it is just a conspiracy.



http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm"

Naltrexone is derived from Naloxone, which is used in emergency medicine as "Narcan"... Narcan is used to block opiate receptors in alive, but "out of it" narcotic overdosers, to keep them from soaking up any more narcotic in their blood stream that might kill them.

Naltrexone is also being looked at in MS and Autism.  Does that mean they're addicts too?

"Alcoholism" as a disease is raking in tons of money.  Like Greg said, once you declassify it as a disease, insuance companies don't pay.  

Yes, brain chemistry is complex.  There are more articles out there that are "inconclusive" when trying to pin down the area, or areas of the brain that is/are responsible for alcoholism.  Since I really don't devote my entire life awake to this cause, I don't have the time to look them up right now.  But I'll get back to you on that.

There is an open ended theory that certain brain areas are just responsible for an addiction to anything that makes you feel good - be it alcohol or video games.  Everyone has their preference.

But try getting "Video Entertainment Addiction" recognized as a disease by the NIH.

[jjpinks]

D.C. So what you are saying is that you are crying "victim" of the alcohol "disease"?  :rofl:  :rofl: [ This Message was edited by: jjpinks on 2005-02-01 09:53 ]

[DC]

I'm sorry Sara,
I do not buy the conspiracy theory.  There is just too much evidence to the contrary.

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-02-01 09:35:00, DC wrote:

"I'm sorry, I do not buy your argument that this is some kind of a conspiracy.  Would you listen to yourself??  You people are so paranoid.  

Paranoid about what?  My windows are open, I answer the telephone, and I soak up the sun on a regular basis, and I have people traepsing all thru my house daily.  I can only speak for myself, but I am hardly living in fear of anything.

I do not expect you to understand addiction, because none of you are apparently addicts. That is ok.  I know where you are coming from.  You are displeased and bitter about being put in a rehab.  Your experience was just too awful to rise above and resume your life.  Instead you just can't wait until someone like me comes along and writes something positive about an experience which I am currently going through.  You live for these times.  What will you do when I am gone, resort back to crying about what happened to you 25 years ago?  

I understand addiction to a lot of things - primarily opiates, which have a severe chemical effect, leading to bona-fide physical effects.  Yes, alcohol has physical effects too - but once you put the bottle down, and get your niacin and thiamine leves back to par, and assuming you haven't suffered any brain atrophy from too many years on the sauce, those effects go away, and a lot quicker than someone who has suffered a painful opiate withdrawal.

You avoid the physical symptoms long before they appear when (to reference Greg) you Grow some balls and realize you DO have the power to put the goddamned bottle down!  Christ - it takes ONE ACTION, not years of so-called-treatment.

And while Montgomery Counties across America have opinions on Addiction and Alcoholism, I prefer to listen to the real experts."

As do we.  There are experts on both sides.


_________________
"I was a long time coming
I'll be a long time gone
you've got your whole life to do something
and that's not very long"

- Ani DiFranco[ This Message was edited by: ~-=Sara=-~ on 2005-02-01 09:55 ]

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-02-01 09:48:00, DC wrote:

"I'm sorry Sara,

I do not buy the conspiracy theory.  There is just too much evidence to the contrary."

Before I call you a friggin' idiot...

WHAT CONSPIRACY THEORY???

[DC]

Sara,
It is not about "balls", you should know, assuming you have none.  To simply put the bottle down does not in fact mean that the addiction is over.  I really can't expect you to understand this, you are not an addict.  This is not about balls or compulsions or any of those things you talk about.
I'm sorry, i cannot explain into words what I want to say.  Everything I do say however is immediatley shot down.  So go back to complaining and hopefully some unsuspecting person will travel into your lives so you can chew them up and spit them out.

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-02-01 09:59:00, DC wrote:

"Sara,

It is not about "balls", you should know, assuming you have none.  To simply put the bottle down does not in fact mean that the addiction is over.  I really can't expect you to understand this, you are not an addict.  This is not about balls or compulsions or any of those things you talk about.

I'm sorry, i cannot explain into words what I want to say.  Everything I do say however is immediatley shot down.  So go back to complaining and hopefully some unsuspecting person will travel into your lives so you can chew them up and spit them out.  "

You really think my life revolves around some "grand conspiracy", don't you.  Well, if it makes you feel better, you go right on believing that.

Personally, I do understand addiction, as you so believe in it.  I'm really really craving Cheetos right now, but I know if I go to get some, one handful will not be enough, and before I know it, the bag will be empty.

Since I don't feel like checking myself in for Cheeto Treatment, I think I'll just eat this apple.

See how easy that was? :grin:

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2005-02-01 09:35:00, DC wrote:

"I'm sorry, I do not buy your argument that this is some kind of a conspiracy.  Would you listen to yourself??  You people are so paranoid.  

I do not expect you to understand addiction, because none of you are apparently addicts.

Actually I understand it quite well.  I went through an 8 year opiate addiction you fucking moron.  I have more "personal experience" than you can shake a fucking stick at.

The bible teaches that woman brought sin and death into the world, that she precipitated the fall of the race, that she was arraigned before the judgment seat of Heaven, tried, condemned and sentenced. Marriage for her was to be a condition of bondage, maternity a period of suffering and anguish, and in silence and subjection, she was to play the role of a dependent on man's bounty for all her material wants, and for all the information she might desire...Here is the Bible position of woman briefly summed up.
--Elizabeth Cady-Stanton

[GregFL]

On 2005-02-01 09:24:00, DC wrote:

"For all of you unwilling to believe in the DISEASE of addiction, I offer you this link, and can provide many, many more that state that it is in fact a disease.  But then again, maybe it is just a conspiracy.



http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm"

Again you quote an organization with a reason to promote the alcohol as a disease. FURTHER researching your wild conclusions, we go to the Doctor they quote and get his actual statement....


"There is at this time still very little understanding about the biological mechanisms that promote abnormal alcohol-seeking behavior; however, studies in genetically-developed animal models are beginning to provide interesting leads that appear to be relevant to the human disorder."

Do you get it?   some key words to help you break it down.

"Very little understanding"

"studies..in animals..are BEGINNING to provide interesting LEADS."

In other words, the very conclusive statement you throw out is nothing but wishfull thinking. Further, The good doctor never says alcohol has been shown to be a disease, only that studies of labotory rats show a propensity of some rats to crave alcohol more than others.

RATS, DC...not people. NO GENETIC MARKER EVEN IDENTIFIED IN RATS, only "interesting LEADS".

Lets explore a little further.
"The difference between lines in response to ethanol suggests that both the enhanced responsiveness to the low-dose reinforcing effects of ethanol, and the rapid development and persistence of tolerance to the highdose, aversive effects of ethanol are important in promoting high alcoholseeking behavior. Recent comparison studies in HAD and LAD rats have shown that, as with the P rats, selection for ethanol drinking preference (10%,v/v, vs. H20) produced lines (HAD) that exhibit operant responding for ethanol as reward in concentrations as high as 30%. As with NP rats, LAD rats responded very little for ethanol when alcohol concentration exceeded 5% (Levy et al., 1988). Furthermore, as was found in the P and NP rats, HAD animals exhibit longer persistence of tolerance after a single, sedative-hypnotic dose of ethanol than do the LAD animals (Froehlich et al., 1987). Therefore, the salient features of the hypothesis formulated from the studies of the P and NP rats appear generalizable."

Dr Ling, quoted as the basis of the article, has done...ready for this...ZERO studies on humans citing "ethical concerns". The ability to decision make between rats and humans when involuntary given mind altering substances, I submit here, is high.

Your doctor, hand picked to further the mission of the Naiaa, also advocates the very 1984 style "screening of all hospital patients for alcoholism that admit using alcohol".  He is anything but non-partial.


NEXT!



DC, Your critical thinking skills are suspect...I still think you would benefit from the blue dot. In fact, I am so convinced I would be willing to sign a Baker act and have you involuntarily commited to 6 months of 12 to 12 staring at the dot. Remember, no glancing..you must WORK the dot.

 For your own good, of course...

[DC]

So this is the best you can do, calling me a fucking moron?  Or calling me an idiot?  Why does it have to be like this?  You don't like what I am saying so you resort to name calling.  Real intelligence just popping out all over the place.  Maybe Cayo needs some anger management courses, or is anger just something that the medical profession can make money on.  Sara, if you read what you wrote, or maybe even take it to a "normal" person and let them read it, you will see that they would most likely agree with me.  You are paranoid and the idea of a conspiracy theory gives you ALL a reason to live.

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2005-02-01 11:19:00, GregFL wrote:

"

On 2005-02-01 09:24:00, DC wrote:


"For all of you unwilling to believe in the DISEASE of addiction, I offer you this link, and can provide many, many more that state that it is in fact a disease.  But then again, maybe it is just a conspiracy.





http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm"

Again you quote an organization with a reason to promote the alcohol as a disease. FURTHER researching your wild conclusions, we go to the Doctor they quote and get his actual statement....





"There is at this time still very little understanding about the biological mechanisms that promote abnormal alcohol-seeking behavior; however, studies in genetically-developed animal models are beginning to provide interesting leads that appear to be relevant to the human disorder."



Do you get it?   some key words to help you break it down.



"Very little understanding"



"studies..in animals..are BEGINNING to provide interesting LEADS."



In other words, the very conclusive statement you throw out is nothing but wishfull thinking. Further, The good doctor never says alcohol has been shown to be a disease, only that studies of labotory rats show a propensity of some rats to crave alcohol more than others.



RATS, DC...not people. NO GENETIC MARKER EVEN IDENTIFIED IN RATS, only "interesting LEADS".



Lets explore a little further.

"The difference between lines in response to ethanol suggests that both the enhanced responsiveness to the low-dose reinforcing effects of ethanol, and the rapid development and persistence of tolerance to the highdose, aversive effects of ethanol are important in promoting high alcoholseeking behavior. Recent comparison studies in HAD and LAD rats have shown that, as with the P rats, selection for ethanol drinking preference (10%,v/v, vs. H20) produced lines (HAD) that exhibit operant responding for ethanol as reward in concentrations as high as 30%. As with NP rats, LAD rats responded very little for ethanol when alcohol concentration exceeded 5% (Levy et al., 1988). Furthermore, as was found in the P and NP rats, HAD animals exhibit longer persistence of tolerance after a single, sedative-hypnotic dose of ethanol than do the LAD animals (Froehlich et al., 1987). Therefore, the salient features of the hypothesis formulated from the studies of the P and NP rats appear generalizable."



Dr Ling, quoted as the basis of the article, has done...ready for this...ZERO studies on humans citing "ethical concerns". The ability to decision make between rats and humans when involuntary given mind altering substances, I submit here, is high.



Your doctor, hand picked to further the mission of the Naiaa, also advocates the very 1984 style "screening of all hospital patients for alcoholism that admit using alcohol".  He is anything but non-partial.





NEXT!







DC, Your critical thinking skills are suspect...I still think you would benefit from the blue dot. In fact, I am so convinced I would be willing to sign a Baker act and have you involuntarily commited to 6 months of 12 to 12 staring at the dot. Remember, no glancing..you must WORK the dot.



 For your own good, of course...











"

Greg, you are da MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:

As a rule, children love their parents, believe what they teach, and take great pride in saying that the religion of mother is good enough for them.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

[GregFL]

by the way, since you are chewing on both Sara and Cayhueso's foot right now, I think I will insert mine for a second.

My experience with addiction to counter your "you know nothing about addiction" assertion.

I was addicted to cigarettes for 6 years and quit on my own..I used drugs recreationally off and on for 10 years then quit on my own with little to no problem.

My mother is a bonafide alcoholic.

My stepfather a drink from the bottle vodka alcoholic and a graduate of Charter TC.

I am a graduate of "addiction treatment" ala the Seed, the inspiration for your beloved GT.

My sister is a graduate of the seed.

My two stepsiblings, graduates of the seed.

My neice has been in three TC's that I know of and currently is working her steps in AA.

My nephew, no decesed, admitted to two TC type treatment centers as a teenager.

My other nephew, a stint in a TC in California.

My father and his wife...co founders of Straight, Inc.

I have studied extensively drug and alcohol treatment and debated the topic ad nausem.I will debate you any time any place on this subject matter because you have proven here you no little of what you speak, only able to spew others mission statements and cut and paste articles with no apparent authors.