G.T. Now

[DC]

Hi all,
I am writing this because I currently have a daughter who is in GT, has has been for several months.  We have not experienced any of the horrors some of you talk about.  While I think some of the things they do are strange, to say the least, I do not believe them to be harmful either physically or mentally.  I host children in my home on a nightly basis, and not one of them has ever even hinted at any kind of abuse.
I think that the program has been cleaned up in comparrison to what it once was as indicated by other posters.  But I stand by what I say and see, and I don't see anything wrong with the treatment at Growing Together.  I am also in recovery and have been in 2 treatment centers myself.
Any comments would be appreciated.

[Anonymous]

Give it a few years and come back and read what the kids have to say then. Asking a kid that is being held and having his freedom of thought and freedom of body held over him whether he likes something or not is really just piling abuse on top of abuse.

Here is the thing..no one has to be beaten or thrown to the floor to be abused. Coersion and mind control is abuse. Forced doctrine is abusive.  Forcing kids to act in a certain manner is abusive and cultish.

Mom, you are making a huge mistake. Unless your kid was shooting heroin or smoking crack and holding up liquor stores, you are making an irreversable decision that may haunt your child until the day he/she dies.

Get them the fuck out of there now.

[Anonymous]

Yes it is strange, it is a goddamnn lock down involutary synanon style cult.

Strange is a vast understatement. Free your kid from this dangerous place.

[Anonymous]

In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis. Remember, I am there now.
Believe me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening.  Maybe that is the way it used to be, but not what I see today.  I know some of the counselors there and even attend meetings with them from time to time.  I know what kind of people they are, and you are mistaken.  It is terrible when given a forum, people would say many hurtful and terrible things about something that is saving lives.  This may not be a popular statement on this board, but I know what I see.  I am not blind or dumb.  Many times the people so full of rage and bad blood are the people who haven't or cannot recover.  For this I am sorry.
My daughter is so much better off because of GT.

[Helena Handbasket]

1.  Have you ever been denied seeing your daughter aside from meetings or other supervision?

2.  Has your daughter had any interruption in education?  How long?

3.  Has your daughter ever been denied access to radio, TV, newspapers or magazines?  

4.  Has your daughter ever been denied unencumbered access to a telephone to call you?

5.  Has your daughter ever been denied certain grooming routines (excluding make-up)  like shaving, taking care of her skin, blow drying her hair, or applying lip balm?  

5.  Has your daughter ever been denied privacy while using the bathroom or showering?

[Anonymous]

1)No, never been denied
2)No, has never had her education interupted
3)Yes, that is not such a bad thing though.Where is the abuse in that?
4)No, she was never denied because she knows that there are rules about phases and telephones. Just rules, no abuse.
5)Yes, is this what you call abuse?
6)This I can't answer because I remove myself from any situation regarding girls and bathrooms.  Even if it were true, whats the big deal?  The same thing happens when you are in the high school locker room.

So if these questions would determine abuse in your mind, then I know what I am dealing with. A spoiled self-centered child who is never wrong.  Take the chip off your shoulder and see that the abuse you speak about is most likely history.  I feel badly for you if you were abused, but these things are not happening anymore.  Let it go.

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-01-28 11:18:00, Anonymous wrote:

"1)No, never been denied"

So, you can show up, perhaps in the middle of rap and take her out for an ice cream?

2)No, has never had her education interupted

So, she was allowed to attend regular school on phases 1 - 3?

3)Yes, that is not such a bad thing though.Where is the abuse in that?

Here's why:  After being denied any media for several months, a staff member, or anyone else with sufficient "priveleges" can address the group that WW III has begun, and "we're all gonna die". Most of the group is not armed with current information to dispute this, or not be terrified.  Sound far fetched?  This actually happened in the program that begat GT.  

4)No, she was never denied because she knows that there are rules about phases and telephones. Just rules, no abuse.

And what exactly is this rule?  Even maximum security inmates have phone priveleges from "Day One" of their incarceration.

5)Yes, is this what you call abuse?

Maybe.  Why is it a rule that someone cannot treat their adolescent skin problems?  Why is lip balm contraband when your lips are bleeding?  Why are guys allowed to shave their faces, but girls not allowed to shave their legs or pits?

6)This I can't answer because I remove myself from any situation regarding girls and bathrooms.  Even if it were true, whats the big deal?  The same thing happens when you are in the high school locker room.

I have never seen, nor been in a locker room where it was mandated that someone stand in the stall, with the door forbidden to be closed, while another attempted to urinate or defacate.  Think about the leg room you have in a public toilet.  Have you ever tried to urinate or defacate while someone stood looming over you within that space?

So if these questions would determine abuse in your mind, then I know what I am dealing with. A spoiled self-centered child who is never wrong.  Take the chip off your shoulder and see that the abuse you speak about is most likely history.  I feel badly for you if you were abused, but these things are not happening anymore.  Let it go.

Spoiled and self centered?

How is basic grooming, access to current events, access to speak to one's parents, and the ability to take a shit in peace "self centered and spoiled"?

[Anonymous]

Your argument is ridiculous and bogus.
1)Didn't want to pick her up in the middle of group and take her to have an icecream.She has responsibilities.  I think I can live without the co-dependent sickness that you are implying.

2)She attended Palm Beach County School at GT.  What is the big deal.  Do you really think that everything that she was into that had gotten her to Gt, that it would have been a good idea to send her out to a public school?  I don't.

3)no comment.  Your statements regarding this question is laughable.

4)Ok, let me say this NO PHONE!  That is not the end of the world and cetainly has nothing remotely related to abuse of any kind.  I'm glad, before GT she spent her life on the phone.

5)Because first you must understand the premise of the program to understand this idea.  They have everything taken away from them, and then they earn it back as they move on to higher phases.  I have never seen a kid that was bleeding or anything else that was denied proper medical attention.

6)Have you ever been in the service?

All in all, I think I know where you are coming from.  None of the concerns you listed nor the reasons which you gave for each of them describes in any manner what is going on at Growing Together.  You are a fraud.

[Antigen]

Welcom, GT dad.

I honestly don't know what's going on inside GT lately, except what you're telling us. I'd like to know more and I hope you'll hang around and talk about it even if we never come close to agreement.

Here's my take on what you've told us so far. Taken alone, none of the individual rules seems too unreasonable. No phone, no reading, school in the building, no privacy, etc. But taken together it's another matter altogether.

If you're actually married to someone who's that obsessive and controling, call the suicide hotline and tell them to keep an eye on her while you escape in the middle of the night.

If GT is anything like what Straight was, that's what your daughter would have to do in order to get to a pay phone to tell you if something bad really did happen. If GT is a lot like Straight, then she'd probably call someone else if something bad really happened because she'd know that you would report her for talking behind backs and being manipuative and send her right back to whoever were abusing her.

We only usually hear about what goes on in these very isolated groups when something really horrible happens, like rape or life threatening injury or death. The thing is, it keeps happening again and again under these same circumstances.

I'm interested in discussing those circumstances that seem to breed those overt abuses.

If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-01-28 12:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Your argument is ridiculous and bogus.

1)Didn't want to pick her up in the middle of group and take her to have an icecream.She has responsibilities.  I think I can live without the co-dependent sickness that you are implying.

Ice cream was merely an example.  Say you just happened to stop by after work and wanted to say "hi".  How is that co-dependency?

2)She attended Palm Beach County School at GT.  What is the big deal.  Do you really think that everything that she was into that had gotten her to Gt, that it would have been a good idea to send her out to a public school?  I don't.

The big deal is that I lost enough school to have me held back a grade.  Others never made it back to school at all.  I had a 3.52 GPA before LIFE.  Attending school was forbidden before phase 3 in LIFE - I was just wondering if things were the same.

3)no comment.  Your statements regarding this question is laughable.

Unfortunately, I have no concrete proof.  We were not allowed to phone home or write about it.  Do you really think anyone had a tape recorder handy?  Of course it sounds insane.  It WAS!

And that's another sickness of the "program" - the Confidentiality rule.  Had I talked about what went on in group that day, it would have been "Talking behind backs" - a punishable offense.  This may be why you don't know the half of what is going on at GT.

But since I don't give a rip about "consequences" anymore - if anyone else cares to corroborate - it was a staff member named "Jeff" that started  the "you druggie scum are all going to die now" rap sometime between April - June 1984.

4)Ok, let me say this NO PHONE!  That is not the end of the world and cetainly has nothing remotely related to abuse of any kind.  I'm glad, before GT she spent her life on the phone.

So that makes it okay to deny her access to any phone calls?  I would think such a family oriented program would encourange kids to phone home at least once a day.

5)Because first you mus
t understand the premise of the program to understand this idea.  They have everything taken away from them, and then they earn it back as they move on to higher phases.  I have never seen a kid that was bleeding or anything else that was denied proper medical attention.

I was talking about chapped lips, guy!  Christ!  You have to beat 'em down by denying Chap-Stick to make 'em comply?  Come ON!

And why do you have to earn the right to attend your acne or shave?  And why did you not answer why guys can shave and girls can't?

Have you ever been in the service?

Nope!  However, my father is very proud Marine.  He'll tell you these methods are absolutely bogus.

All in all, I think I know where you are coming from.  None of the concerns you listed nor the reasons which you gave for each of them describes in any manner what is going on at Growing Together.  You are a fraud."

So where am I coming from?  What is going on at GT?  

I never claimed to be at GT.  Once again, I was in LIFE, which spawned GT.  How does that make me a fraud?

[DC]

I would like to point out that I made a joke in referring to my wife and her mind control abilities.  I just think that it is not quite what the anonymous poster implied.
You know, I cannot for the life of me understand why the things that GT takes away from a kid is so bad. They do earn these privledges back as they progress in the program.  It depends on the client as to how fast or slow the progression is.  If someone is deprived of the things that the rest of us take for granted, well then welcome to the rest of the world, where most people in the world do not even own a phone or television.  These kids need to know that their are consequences to their actions and if taking away certain priviledges is one of these consequences, then I have no problem with that.  
I fail to see any abuse scenerio that has been brought up thus far.  I will be the first to tell you that I would defend my daughter's well-being like a lion.  If I thought for even a second that she was being abused, then she would be out of there.  But I don't see it.  I have these kids in my house every single night.  I have the opportunity to discuss recovery and I also have the delight of making them laugh and seeing a different perspective of their time in GT.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-01-28 13:28:00, DC wrote:

"I would like to point out that I made a joke in referring to my wife and her mind control abilities.  I just think that it is not quite what the anonymous poster implied.

You know, I cannot for the life of me understand why the things that GT takes away from a kid is so bad. They do earn these privledges back as they progress in the program.  It depends on the client as to how fast or slow the progression is.  If someone is deprived of the things that the rest of us take for granted, well then welcome to the rest of the world, where most people in the world do not even own a phone or television.  These kids need to know that their are consequences to their actions and if taking away certain priviledges is one of these consequences, then I have no problem with that.  

I fail to see any abuse scenerio that has been brought up thus far.  I will be the first to tell you that I would defend my daughter's well-being like a lion.  If I thought for even a second that she was being abused, then she would be out of there.  But I don't see it.  I have these kids in my house every single night.  I have the opportunity to discuss recovery and I also have the delight of making them laugh and seeing a different perspective of their time in GT."

open your eyes
http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/2004- ... ure_1.html

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-01-28 13:28:00, DC wrote:

"I would like to point out that I made a joke in referring to my wife and her mind control abilities.  I just think that it is not quite what the anonymous poster implied.

You know, I cannot for the life of me understand why the things that GT takes away from a kid is so bad. They do earn these privledges back as they progress in the program.  It depends on the client as to how fast or slow the progression is.  If someone is deprived of the things that the rest of us take for granted, well then welcome to the rest of the world, where most people in the world do not even own a phone or television.  These kids need to know that their are consequences to their actions and if taking away certain priviledges is one of these consequences, then I have no problem with that.  

I fail to see any abuse scenerio that has been brought up thus far.  I will be the first to tell you that I would defend my daughter's well-being like a lion.  If I thought for even a second that she was being abused, then she would be out of there.  But I don't see it.  I have these kids in my house every single night.  I have the opportunity to discuss recovery and I also have the delight of making them laugh and seeing a different perspective of their time in GT."

First of all, Consequences for what?  

I've seen capital felons with more rights -- and they were actually convicted!

It's actually a common theme amongst these places to tell the most heinous tales of drug use and sexualiaty - even if not true - just to get the hell out!

[Antigen]

"

On 2005-01-28 13:28:00, DC wrote:

You know, I cannot for the life of me understand why the things that GT takes away from a kid is so bad.

I know you were joking about your wife. Obviously, if she really were that controling, you wouldn't be able to stand it. And that's the point.

You also very likely can't understand why all those things GT takes away and takes control of are so horribly bad. Naturally, because you've never experienced it. No one does. That's why, for the past 20 years, it's been so damned hard for those of us who have experienced it to explain it in terms that others can understand.

Let me give you an example. I think this is a good paralel and something everybody's at least heard of from time to time. Every summer, especially when we get unusually intense heat in the northern parts of the country, you'll see a story or two about some idiot who left their dog or their child in a locked car for an hour or two. Now, anyone who's spent a summer and a winter in So. Florida has no fear of Hell and no desire for Heaven. They also damned well know better than to leave a living thing in a car for more than about 5 minuites in the summer. We know this because we experience the inside of a hot car pretty regularly. But we get out immediately and let the thing air out becuse it's uncomfortable.

But someone who's never experienced that kind of intensely hot weather or what it does to the inside of a closed car in as little as 15 minutes just wouldn't think it were dangerous. And if they heard of a kid complaining that their parent locked them in a car in summer for an hour in Florida, they'd laugh and think that must be one spoiled kid!

But you just try it. The only place I know of where you can experience something similar to what your daughter is likely going through is Talbott Recovery near Atlanta. Go ahead and make an apointment for an intake interview and see what happens.

Of course, I know you won't do that. But I'm trying to get you to think a little bit more about the "odd, to say the least" things about GT. Trust me, these are not just meaningless quirks, there's a method to the madness.

Here's a good article on Talbott
http://www.peele.net/debate/talbott.html

The other anon poster is giving you some good practical advice. Look into research on cults and how they work. If you can think critically and independently of what the parent group would approve, maybe you'll start to put the pieces together and get an idea of the bigger picture.

The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of women's emancipation.
--Elizabeth Cady-Stanton

[DC]

What, do you think these kids are innocent when they go to a place like GT???  Consequences for drug use, behavioral, etc...
Are you honestly going to sit there and say that these kids have not put their own and other lives in jepordy because of their actions??  There are consequences to those actions.  GT offers help and solutions to those kinds of problems.  So does AA & NA.
My daughter was going to kill herself using, so excuse me if I don't see the peril in not letting her make a phone call, watch tv or shave her legs.  You people are barking up the wrong tree.  GT is not Straight or the SEED.  Things are being done differently, and besides, I knew quite a few people that went to the SEED and they came out ok.  I still speak to some today.  You just want to find something to complain about.  You should know more about the program before you start slamming it, you may end up confusing someone and in the end be responsible for thir deaths.
In the end it is all about recovery, I would suggest you let it go and let the healing begin, for your own sake.