Author Topic: Group Think  (Read 12522 times)

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Offline cleveland

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« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2005, 10:35:00 AM »
See FL, you were a jock after all!

I do remember the look of joy on your face when you caught a pass. Now, I DID like ping-pong - we played it all day long at that one old apartment in N. Miami - had a terazzo floor and a fountain in the LR, grapefruit and orange trees in the yard...

Happy Holidays to all!
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Offline jgar

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« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2005, 10:56:00 AM »
Hey Anon,

I can see your point of view and agree with you in most of the aspects that you stated. In my case the Seed helped me immensely and in fact the Seed did what it said it would do and that was to get me off drugs. The Seed also showed me the origins and causes of my problems and that my drug use was just a symptom some other more deep rooted problems. Self understanding and awareness is what the Seed attempted to teach and for the most part it was learned and interpreted by each person differently.

   On the site there are people that are diehard 100 % Seed loyalists than there are the diehard 100 % anti-Seeds who are convinced Seed had no good to offer and that the Seed left everlasting scars. Then there are people like myself in which I believe the Seed did much good but on the same hand the Seed had some imperfects.

   I believe the Seed experience is up to each and ever person who experienced the program to be free to interpreted their experience as either positive or negative. I get such a kick from the people (Anti-Seed) that violently attack those who post those who have anything positive to say, insinuated that we have been so duped and can?t we see how the Seed was all part of some kind of interrelated government conspiracy to gain the control of the minds of middle America thru the manipulation of our adolescent years. Personally I find this mindset just as closed minded as the people who take the opposite stand. On the other hand this free exchange of ideas can encourage a more open examination of one?s experience.

   I believe good or bad begin at the point of intent. What was the intent or the purpose of something? Was it to do good? I believe the Seed intentions were sound and good was the methodology always perfect? Personally after my 6 years at the Seed I never found any evidence of deliberate intent to destroy one?s life just the opposite I saw how people pulled together to help someone. What did hurt was the extremism of people?s actions in how people would profess their loyalty toward the Seed or how certain people almost deified Art. This allowed the group to take a life of its own and after a while the group became kind of inbred and sealed away from the so called real world creating for people an alternative reality. This is what I found so flawed and created my internal conflict which ultimately caused my leaving. In the end this bitter sweet experience served only to deepen my understanding. It?s all in the attitude and in the light in which we choose to see things in.

   Through only my personal observations during my time spent at the Seed is how I base my opinions on my Seed experience.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2005, 11:24:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-12-22 07:56:00, jgar wrote:

I get such a kick from the people (Anti-Seed) that violently attack those who post those who have anything positive to say, insinuated that we have been so duped and can?t we see how the Seed was all part of some kind of interrelated government conspiracy to gain the control of the minds of middle America thru the manipulation of our adolescent years. Personally I find this mindset just as closed minded as the people who take the opposite stand. On the other hand this free exchange of ideas can encourage a more open examination of one?s experience.
. . .

I never found any evidence of deliberate intent to destroy one?s life just the opposite

. . .

Through only my personal observations during my time spent at the Seed is how I base my opinions on my Seed experience.    


Right, well, I've never found any evidence of any deliberate attempt to destroy anyone either. What I have found through personal observation is some very well intended people falling prey to the ever present law of unintended consequences. All the good intentions in the world don't make right some of the things that went on routinely at the Seed.

As for the government involvement, well unless you have been in the loop on that level, you'd have to go outside of your own personal experience and read about it. It's there, clearly. Wes Fager has put together an astounding expose on the topic.

Just read. Bobby DuPont, as head of NIDA under Nixon did, indeed, make a formal recomendation to spread the Synanon method accross the country at public expense. He then did act on that intention when he granted over a million to the Seed. There's no denying that DFAF is Straight, Inc. after two name changes. And they make no secret of their mission to influence public policy and spending to further that same stated goal.

Here's a Google Search on "Drug Free America Act" which returns a couple of hundred references.

I didn't make this stuff up. I just checked to find out if my suspicions were founded or not. Sadly, they were.

A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper. He must free himself from the habit, just as soon as something does not please him, of calling for the police.
http://www.mises.org/liberal/ch1sec11.asp' target='_new'>Ludwig Von Mises

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Offline jgar

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« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2005, 12:08:00 PM »
Just for the record Art Barker despised Richard Nixon and always blamed Nixon?s plumbers for deliberately trying to shut down the Seed in it's early years. Some government agency (under order?s from the White house) conducted an audit at the Seed because of some public statement Art made endorsing Edwin Musky, during a failed run for the presidency. Because of this and because Art would have to relinquished control of the Seed into government hands I am convinced that Art would have never agreed to any of this.

In spite of what you may think (again I will say that I was not that close to Art during my years at the Seed) Art did believe in what he was doing was right and good. I say this not to negate your opinion but to say only what I observed. I was not present when this audit happened and perhaps someone who was there could shed some more light on this situation.  

As per any type of study that might have been done (as has been stated before in this forum) has to be carefully scrutinized before any kind of validity can be given. As you well know things can be politically motivated and intent might not be true or pure. I have read or heard about studies that taken for the face value looked good but than  carefully looking into the claims or conclusions the findings are just way off. This is why I always state that my opinions are based only through my years and experiences there. This is why I only give importance to opinions stated by the people who actually went thru the program.
 



[ This Message was edited by: jgar on 2005-12-22 09:11 ]
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Offline FueLaw

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« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2005, 01:30:00 PM »
jgar, while I don't agree with your position on the Seed I do agree with your approach in discussing the Seed. As I was attempting to point out on another thread the Seed experience in completely dependent on where a person was in there life. The more hooked on drugs ect... the more likely you were to be receptive to the program.

It also is dependent on the time period when you were in the program. I make my $$$ arguing with people but I can't argue with people who were part of the original Seed or who came in time periods after me. The experience was completely different because the Seed was completely different.

Please keep in mind that the person who argues the most against the Seed never spent a day in the program and has no logical point of reference to argue from.

Like you I only base my opinions on the Seed during the period I was in there, May '73-July'74, I was not there for footbal or softball, there were no social/athletic activities during my time period. Just 10-10's until you progressed in the program. When you graduated you were done. During my time period very few people went to old timer's raps after they graduated.

I also agree that most of the studies are probably worthless. I never meet a single person who was ever interviewed by a person conducting a so called study. In addition I don't need a study to tell me what did and did not happen while I was in there.

In terms of short and or long term "Benefit" from the Seed that also depends on the factors we have previously discussed. The people that were older, more mature and really wanted help getting off drugs probably did benefit in some ways. The people that did not want to be there and who were forced to be there probably did not derive any benefit's from the program. The Seeds claim of 90% success rate, which is what they were boasting during my time period, was a complete fabrication.
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Offline jgar

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« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2005, 01:58:00 PM »
Thank you for your kind words and I agree with your approach. I respect your view because you lived it and whether we agree or disagree is beside the point.Due to the fact you lived the Seed I must respect your opinion. Your experience was just as valid as mine.[ This Message was edited by: jgar on 2005-12-22 10:59 ]
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2005, 02:09:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-22 09:08:00, jgar wrote:

"Just for the record Art Barker despised Richard Nixon and always blamed Nixon?s plumbers for deliberately trying to shut down the Seed in it's early years. Some government agency (under order?s from the White house) conducted an audit at the Seed because of some public statement Art made endorsing Edwin Musky, during a failed run for the presidency. Because of this and because Art would have to relinquished control of the Seed into government hands I am convinced that Art would have never agreed to any of this.

But he evidently didn't have a problem w/ accepting NIDA funding. Not saying it was Art's intent to play the stoodge for psyops. In fact, knowing him, I'd say he may well have had grand delusions about having it the other way around; where the government would go on handing him money and let him call all the shots.

Quote

In spite of what you may think (again I will say that I was not that close to Art during my years at the Seed) Art did believe in what he was doing was right and good.

Yes, I know. I've pretty much always believed that. But then, every human being down through history who ever deemed themselves a leader or a revolutionary thought the same thing. Did Che view himself as a bad guy? How about Capone?

Quote
I say this not to negate your opinion but to say only what I observed. I was not present when this audit happened and perhaps someone who was there could shed some more light on this situation.  



As per any type of study that might have been done (as has been stated before in this forum) has to be carefully scrutinized before any kind of validity can be given.

Well, here would be not a bad place to start:
Quote
In 1971 the United States Senate's Judiciary Committee, Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights under the directorship of Senator Sam Ervin began an investigation of the US government's role in behavior modification. Ervin's 650 page report was published in November 1974 under the title "Individual Rights and the Federal Role in Behavior Modification." Other members of the subcommittee included: Senators John McClellan, Arkansas, Edward Kennedy, Massachusetts, Birch Bayh, Indiana, Robert Byrd, West Virginia, John Tunney, California, Edward Gurney, Florida, Roman Hruska, Nebraska, Hiram Fong, Hawaii, Strom Thurmond, South Carolina, and Lawrence Baskir, Chief Counsel, Dorothy Glancy, Counsel, Joseph Klutz, Research Assistant, Alfred Pollard, Research Assistant, and George Downs, Sr, Chief Printing Clerk, and Anita Kinlaw, a legal intern. The report includes a study of Straight's predecessor program, The Seed, and concludes that The Seed used methods similar to the "brainwashing" methods employed by North Koreans against American servicemen during the Korean War.
http://thestraights.com/reports/us_involvement.htm

Quote
As you well know things can be politically motivated and intent might not be true or pure.

Yeah, no shit! Like, for example, official statement as fact of the spurious myth of the Gateway Theory? Or of marijuana addiction? Or check this out:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/sout ... 522108.stm

A woman dies of kidney failur, having tried GW Pharma's Sativex (which is, essentially, Cannabis tincture) some months prior. And the rabid drug warriors are trying to blame that clinical trial for her death? Never mind the diabetes, advanced age and other, far more likely culprits. No, there's a problem, see. Even the doctors and governments are starting to break ranks on the governments' hysterical position on cannabis. So this is their solution; demonize the competition.

Quote
I have read or heard about studies that taken for the face value looked good but than  carefully looking into the claims or conclusions the findings are just way off.

Yeah, here's some debunking on that
http://www.ukcia.org/research/nahas.htm

Al Robison is still around, still posting. If you'd like to get his take on these issues, you can contact him through Drug Policy Forum of Texas he'd probably answer your email. He became interested in the political aspects of drug war research when he was involved in government funded research to determine the toxicity of THC. His team's research concluded that there isn't any. You simply can't put enough THC into a lab rat to kill the bastard w/o that amount being attributable to overall dilution (in other words, so much that even if you had used water it would delute the blood to the point of overload)

Yes, indeed, figures don't lie but liars sure can figure. So far, the truth has been the first casualty in the Drug War. And, whether Art and Lybbi ever intended it or not, their very own lies have become fodder in that war.

Quote
This is why I always state that my opinions are based only through my years and experiences there. This is why I only give importance to opinions stated by the people who actually went thru the program.


Well, that's not the whole story. Sorry, it just isn't. If you want the whole story, you have to look elsewhere. If you don't want the whole story, that's fine too. But don't kid yourself. Closing your eyes doesn't really make the world go away.

I'm glad some people have that faith. I don't have that faith. If there is a God, a caring God, then we have to figure he's done an extraordinary job of making a very cruel world.
--Dave Matthews, South African rock musician



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Offline jgar

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« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2005, 02:28:00 PM »
Hey Ginger I wish I had the time to reply to you but I have to go out cause I am leaving to NC for the next few days and will be incomunicado. Your post desires a response. Anyway I'll have to do it next week.

Have a good holiday and all the best to everyone

  :wave:  :wave:  :wave:  :wave:  :wave:  :wave:  :wave:  :wave:
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2005, 02:48:00 PM »
You too, have a pleasant trip.

"When did I realize it? Well, one day I was praying and suddenly realized I was talking to myself."
--God

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2005, 08:13:00 PM »
Marshall,
The reason I don't choose to hear the rebuttles is because from my experience here, if you are for the seed, there are certain people who choose to knock down what you just said. Sure everyone has an opinion, I just don't care about the "studies", the rhetoric from someone who wasn't even in the seed at the time I was. That was 33 yrs ago in my life.  Yes, I have heard the seed changed, but when I was in there I never saw or heard any staff "attack" a seed kid, or a lot of what others experienced. I respect everyone who were in the seed at different times, and had their own realities in the seed. I am very sorry for people who have been damaged by the seed. That just wasn't my experience, nor was it for many of my fellow seedlings whom I was close to, which was many at our time. The seed was new in town in 1973. Yes, I read the articles the Times wrote about us being Korean style brainwashed. St.Pete Times is so far to the left, I don't read it. That is my choice. Honest critisism I can accept. But not personal attacks.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2005, 08:38:00 PM »
Stripe,
Sure some of my bad choice were conscious choices. Yet let me explain me to you back in the days. As I said, I was walking on this planet as a shell of a human being. I felt NO feelings, because I chose to get high 24/7. I was numb from past experiences in my life which really screwed me up. I was full of rage. When I hit my mom with the iron, I didn't really see my mom, I saw red, and was totally out of control. Do you understand that? So full of rage that you don't see or even care about what is right in front of you. It is a very horrible and scary feeling. When I realized what I just did, I didn't even feel it was me. I had a monster inside of me that was rearing it's ugly head and I wasn't even aware of it. Sure I chose to drive the "get away car" in the robbery, and I wasn't even thinking of the consequences. Unfortunatly the other two got caught in the woods, and we took off. Good friend huh? While I was in the seed, I was given a great therapist whom I'd go see after I got out of school. There I had to go through every horrible experince I had been through in my past, and be healed of the pain. It took many yrs post seed too to get it all out, feel the feelings I felt at the time, and let go. I busted my butt to fight that monster in me, and I won.... The seed opened my eyes to a life I had never experienced before. And the sandwiches were horrible.  ::boohoo::
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2005, 09:01:00 PM »
But.... didn't you just say Art was a Lefty? So then... does that mean he was as full of shit as the SPX? Or that SPX should be believed w/o question, just like Art?

When dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity ceases.
http://www.kbuxton.com/discordia/' target='_new'>Robert Anton Wilson

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2005, 09:03:00 PM »
Yeah, yeah. Been there, done that, every stinkin' day for years, plus all the open meetings for a decade prior.

Do you think it's just possible that all that indoctrination may have influenced your memory of events prior to the Seed? What about the people who knew you before and who were not involved w/ the Seed. What do they say?

May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house.
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Offline Johnny G

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« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2005, 10:50:00 PM »
I made conscious choices to be the way I was, but then got caught up in it, and felt pretty trapped.  

I had the raging monster thing going on, and Crazy Johnny was a bit too close to home for me.  THe Seed was a "time out" and a "do over" for some stuff, so as I said before, I came out better than I went in.  I was forced to confront a few demons and work those things out.  

I don't believe Art and Co started with the intent to form a cult, but I think it took on those aspects due to the lack of an alternative view.  It does't make it any less real, but for some of us that aspect is more significant than for others.  I went thru this a lot in my own mind in the days after I left, from anger to confusion, to self doubt and back again.  I have come to accept my own feelings and my experience as a given, some positive and some negative - I survived and I'm normal now (I think).

We all measure our own experience on the same yardstick - positive vs negative.  I myself was terrified of fucking up and being started over right up until the day I left.  

After I wrecked my car I was right back to feeling pretty much trapped there (what happened to Barry B (right next to the impact I think), and the brothers from Newbern?).  In theory I could leave at any time.




Happy holidays Merry Christmas and such

Johnny G
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2005, 11:21:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-22 10:30:00, FueLaw wrote:

Please keep in mind that the person who argues the most against the Seed never spent a day in the program and has no logical point of reference to argue from.


Ok, please quit with the rediculous. That's like saying a Jew who grew up in Nazi Germany knows nothing of Hitler Jugund cause they never joined. Besides that, I was in Straight, which was The Seed under another name. Belive it or not, I was there, you weren't.

And I'm not the most stridently against the Seed, either. I know of people who refuse to believe good intent on the part of the core staff.

It has ever been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues

--Abraham Lincoln



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