Author Topic: Group Think  (Read 12517 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cleveland

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 410
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile
Group Think
« on: January 05, 2005, 11:49:00 AM »
If you look on the other forums here, it won't take too long before you find a similar story...someone claiming this of that Program helped them, while others will claim it was the work of the Devil...

My personal view is that when you deliberately stress people out, confront them with their faults and weaknesses in a group setting, make them emotionally vulnerable and confess their weaknesses, and finally have them swear allegience to either the the leader or the group itself...and dedicate themselves to spreading this message...

Some will seemingly achieve big life changes - seemingly a 'miracle.' Some will reject it and leave. Others will stay for a bit, then move on. Point is, what happens years down the road? Why do we need to use this way to achieve change, if it even works, these techniques can create monsters too (Hitler Youth?)

Isn't there a better way to change your life?

Personally, I think so, but it is hard work. I don't really believe in 'miracles'...just the long slow work of changing yourself for the better...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
ally Gator

Offline Rob P.

  • Posts: 1
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Group Think
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2005, 04:28:00 PM »
testing sig
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
img src=\"flashmod.com/elansig.jpg\">

Offline cleveland

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 410
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile
Group Think
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2005, 09:20:00 AM »
I can't believe it...

People will spend all day arguing about whether the Seed was good or bad, but won't talk about the program itself...

Good or bad, what were the 'techniques,' what were the 'tools,' everyone refers to? I'm sorry, I hate vagueness when it comes to taking a position...

Let's talk about it: is it OK to stress kids out, aggravate their sense of shame, restrict their rights, instill an unquestioning belief in authority, and restrict their contact with the outside world? Would anyone argue that this is not what the Seed did in fact - and the same techniques are used by WWASP today? Is it OK 'for their own good?' Is it OK if I think it 'helped' me?

The stories people tell in these forums are all the same, more or less...

Tell me I'm wrong!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
ally Gator

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Group Think
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2005, 10:18:00 AM »
Your not wrong Cleveland.  The thing is, some people buy into the myth that they were so damaged, so worthless, that this saved them from themselves.

They for some reason don't realize they were for the most part just children going thru normal teenage problems.

As far as the tools, they were 7 of the twelve steps lifted from AA. They were really meaningless in the overall scheme of what "worked" at the seed. I contend you could have replaced them with anything and still got the same result.

The real effective part of the experience were the cultic aspects. The motivating, the forced attention at all times, the public humiliation and confessions, the constant threat of punishment, the love bombing, the restriction of freedom and thought, the forcing of demonizing all pre-seed memories, the isolation from the rest of the world, the us and them mentality...

these are the real techniques. The steps and "signs" were just fluff IMO, especially in light of the fact that they were using addiction treatment "steps" on mostly non addicted kids.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline cleveland

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 410
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile
Group Think
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2005, 11:55:00 AM »
Greg,

I'd like to hear from some of the folks who feel the Seed helped them, and explain how they were helped - did separating them from the outside world, subjecting them to group confession and day-long raps, having them live segregated from each other by sex and from the outside world - what tools came from that?

In short, how does that work to make you a better person? Some people here think it did...I'm not going to argue with their reality but I am interested in how 'honesty, the gift of self-awareness, and wanting to 'do the right thing' come from those things above. Or do those things come from something else?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
ally Gator

Offline marshall

  • Posts: 180
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Group Think
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2005, 04:57:00 PM »
Well, I finally made good use of; "Made direct amends to those we had harmed." Ten years after graduating the seed I looked up my former best friend from high school (that's 'old druggie friend' in seed lingo) and apologized to him for being such an arrogant asshole right after I left the seed (& attempting to get him into the program). He graciously forgave me. I've done similar direct amends to several of my old friends. There were so many that I was rude and condescending towards simply because they smoked pot from time to time or drank alcohol. The seed reasoning was that if they were friends with me before the seed then they 'must' be horrible druggies.

It was part of the same all or nothing, good or evil thinking. 'Before I came to the seed I was a complete asshole, now I'm straight and happy and love everybody...' What a crock. I'd mouth this stuff at the time even though I was lonely & miserable at the seed. I wish I had all of the years the program (and court system) directly and indirectly stole from my youth. In my case, I literally had no choice but to complete the program. If I screwed-up, I would have been sent back to prison to serve the remainder of a 5 year sentence. Those were the terms of my probation. Talk about motivation for going with the program!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline cleveland

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 410
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile
Group Think
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2005, 08:13:00 AM »
Marshall,

I wonder what, from your perspective now, would have made a difference when you were a kid? There are still a lot of these kinds of programs out there, using the same language and structure, justified because kids "need" them. You were in some serious trouble - what would have helped you then? If you could magically go back, what would you do for the person you were 20 or 30 years ago?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
ally Gator

Offline marshall

  • Posts: 180
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Group Think
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2005, 03:34:00 PM »
I would simply try to be a friend to that person and listen to his concerns with an open heart  The serious trouble that I was in was of a legal sort. If I were living during the prohibition years and had been arrested for selling bathtub gin or illegal whiskey it would have been a similar type of trouble. I use no illegal drugs but I am opposed to the nation's drug laws. Prohibition does not work and creates more harm in it's attempt to alleviate drug use. I don't know that I needed any specific help other than being allowed to be a typical teenager, testing limits, rebeling and growing up without being subjected to adult prison and a mind control cult at 17. My best guess is that I would have outgrown my fascination with drugs...just as I've witnessed countless other teens pass thru this phase to go on to live happy, productive lives.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline Ft. Lauderdale

  • Posts: 444
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Group Think
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2005, 03:43:00 PM »
Marshall, I do remember you I think - glasses?- 5 years of time wasn't just handed out for being a bad boy was it?  So you went to the Seed for a much cushier time.  Sorry Pal something is missing here?  Unless everyone in the Georgia court system had it out for you as a 17yr old.  Am I missing something?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Ft. Lauderdale

  • Posts: 444
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Group Think
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2005, 04:04:00 PM »
I really do feel a certain percentage of kids would have stopped doing drugs and grown out of it on their own if they had a decent family and were just normal teenagers.  I personally didn't see alot of "normal" ones.  Yes some people were overboard about things.  I really never got into hero worship or was moonie like.  Have you ever seen kids durring a pep rally I never got into that when I was a kid either. School spirit. I needed something and the seed is what I got... and It did help me.  I said why we sing jingle bells...and felt a little uncomfortable doing it but I think that was good for me.  Yes I really do.  It helped break me out of the depressed slump or lethargic attitudes I posessed.  I never had a nice christmas as a kid someone was always calling the police on someone or someone was getting hit or yelled at or something along these lines ::boohoo:: I know you may say whatever...
Yes I was the perfect moonie canidate (is that dating myself?) I don't know what one says today about that.  People showed me kindness.   This I desperatly needed.  I wasn't yelled at and locked in a room and I went to the bathroom by myself.  It helped me yes I did need to move on did I yes.
Was I envolved for a long time- yes.  Did I ever witness abuse -no.  Did I ever see a kid get yelled at- yes.  Was the Seed perfect-No.  I have never heard Antigen or even you Greg(funny I always feel like I talking to Greg???) Talk about anything nice or good about your experience.  Was it just hell on a daily basis? or was your heart touched by anyone or ??? Antigen I know you were never on the program but did't anything ever strike you as nice or good?  I really do want to know.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline marshall

  • Posts: 180
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Group Think
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2005, 06:05:00 PM »
I said I don't 'use' illegal drugs..present tense. Not that I never used them. I was sent to prison & the seed for selling & distributing LSD. Translation: I'd dropped acid a total of 5 times. A classmate had been begging me to sell him a hit and a girl I liked asked me to give her one. She insisted on taking hers at school and flipped out, spilling her guts to the principal who called the police.

And yes, the seed was much cushier than the georgia prison system. I would also probably have chosen to spend time in north korea listening to hours of communist propaganda rather than prison or willingly joined the moonies or hari krishnas if those were the terms of my probation. It doesn't mean these would qualify as good things. All of these would also likely have gotten me off of drugs even if via brainwashing propaganda.

Yep. Sounds like me. Glasses and when I was on the front row....bald too. Haircut courtesy of same ga. prison system. John U. was always rubbing my head...must've thought it was good luck.  :smile:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Group Think
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2005, 06:35:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-08 13:04:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

Antigen I know you were never on the program but did't anything ever strike you as nice or good? I really do want to know.


Oh, of course! Probably never would have been exposed to Monty Python had this one kid not landed up as a foster in our home. Probably, not definitely. Python's pretty big outside the Program too. Sometimes, the singing wasn't bad. I remember a couple of fairly talented ameteur musicians playing at Open Meeting or Group singing a new song really well. But they were never as good or as diverse as half the acts playing at various venues in the area. And that was a trade off. In order to be a good little honorary Seedling (and stay off of front row) I had to pretend shun all popular music and never let slip an interest in going to a concert (other than one in a church involving organ music or opera).

Of course it wasn't 100% horrible. But even the high points were only a little better than the tense moments. Compared to freedom, they would have had no charm at all.

Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.  -- My First Summer in the Sierra , 1911, page 110.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0395353513/' target='_new'> John Muir

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline cleveland

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 410
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile
Group Think
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2005, 09:01:00 AM »
See, reading all of these posts together, we have quite a range or opinion...

I'm sure Lauderdale does feel that the Seed saved him from himself...I too was a highly depressed teenager, and the Seed forced me to try to get out of it. For me, it was a temporary solution, but I had to deal with so much underlying stuff that it was many years after I left the Seed that I felt comfortable with myself. And frankly, the seven years I stayed around the Seed, I made no growth at all...

Marshall, one of the potential kids sent to prison for a relatively minor incident - you know how many black kids get sent to prison for selling reefer? It's huge. I'm not arguing the liberal line of no consequences, but I think these consequences are wrong. And remember, the kennedy family made their fortune in bootlegged liquor!

For me, the Seed gave a little, but took a lot...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
ally Gator

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Group Think
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2005, 11:32:00 AM »
i recall eventually just hoping some kinda shit would hit the fan and relieve the everyday horrible monotony and the constant drone of the groups etc.. recall relief at being chosen to perform any kind of job or chore just to get the hell out of the bullshit... and i learned how to blow a helluva smoke ring and that above all else to trust no one or "thrown under the bus" would be the result of any true disclosure.
  so ya see some positive results did happen from  my seed experience..oh yeah.. they killed kenny... THOSE BASTARDS.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Group Think
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2005, 03:27:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-08 13:04:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:



Was I envolved for a long time- yes.  Did I ever witness abuse -no.  Did I ever see a kid get yelled at- yes.  Was the Seed perfect-No.  I have never heard Antigen or even you Greg(funny I always feel like I talking to Greg???) Talk about anything nice or good about your experience.  Was it just hell on a daily basis? or was your heart touched by anyone or ???


I think I felt captive and trapped all the time. However, there was a several month period when the techniques had taken over and I was into the experience, but Mostly I think it was because I HAD TO BE.

Immediately after graduating I started talking to Other kids. The seed kids questioned me and I told them I was a graduate and could do what I damned pleased. Very quickly they wouldn't talk to me, at least the kids of their program...

FL, I don't have a lot of good to say about it because it was an oppressive strange way to be a 14 year old,because I never wanted to be a cult member, because I didn't need stepcraft treatment because I was never an addict,  because it ruined my high school and family, and because it took me many years to work thru the hurt and anger.  The seed really sucked for me...big time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »