Fresh blood

[wtaylorg]

Hey Cleveland:
I left in May '85, a few months before you. I told Bob W. I wanted to go to school esp. Art School and he said, "let me check with Lybbi, tom". I remember thinking "They won't let me", then I thought "I'm not asking".
But, I waited and the next morning I met with Lybbi, one of the handful of times I ever talked to her. She said "where do you want to go to school?" I said up north!

Well, I called my Mom and borrowed $500.00. I had no money. I hadn't been allowed to work in mos. Good for your self esteem, huh!
Man, even though I was apprehensive, I knew my life had to get better than this.

Former gate watcher; 3-6 am shift, spend the nighter.

[marshall]

<"you were,  if you chose to stick around, always on your program">

Do you mean this literally? No-one graduated the program anymore?  It sounds like the line between oldcomer and oldtimer became blurred to the point of nonexistence. This was very different from the way things worked when I was there.

<"At home, if there was no newcomer, guys would work on cars, or mow lawns, or do carpentry, while girls would 'cook, clean or sew.' ">

Sounds like the amish or some fundamentalist group. Another attempt to turn the cultural clock back. Very sexist. I wonder what the reasons were behind these changes? Did staff find that too many graduates were straying from the seedling path & decide to exert greater control?

<" People who spent a long time at the Seed were different from the kids who went on the program, graduated and moved on.">

While I was there, it was considered normal & healthy to graduate and go on with your life...choosing where you will live, where to work and who you would socialize with. It sounds like a parent that became so neurotic that they discouraged their children from ever leaving the nest. The words 'cult' and 'brainwash' are extreme and black & white. Maybe increasing cultishness would be a better fit.

Wtaylorg :
<". I was told that now all oldtimers are basically always on their program as a way of life.">

That's sick and scary. If I'd gone back and encountered that, I think I would have wondered how far away the black tennis shoes and kool-aid were. I can better understand the wide divergence of opinion about the seed now. There really was not a single 'seed' that we can speak of. ...rather a series of seeds that changed over the years.

Lots of people have gotten off drugs via scientology. (They're very anti-drug) I'm sure those people that were helped by scientology or similar religious and quasi-religious groups are grateful and credit them with saving their lives too and would readily defend the organization.  This does not negate the other, more problematic aspects that may be present though.

The seed I attended taught a lot of good things. Who can argue that honesty is bad? Or empathy and sensitivity? It seems many of us were able to sift the useful stuff from the crud and use some of those teachings in a positive manner. I'm sure the same could be said of many such groups.

One could be kidnapped by terrorists and forced to study the quran at gunpoint. This doesn't mean there are not some good teachings in the quran. But this in no way justifies the act of kidnapping or means used to convey the teachings.
Cleveland and Wtaylorg, thanks for your info.

[marshall]

This excerpt is from "Cults in our Midst" by Margaret Singer:

"We can see how transformations occur when the six principles are skillfully put into play by cult leaders and cultic groups. For example:
Consistency. If you have made a commitment to the group and then break it, you can be made to feel guilty.
Reciprocity. If you accept the group's food and attention, you feel you should repay them.
Social proof. If you look around in the group, you will see people behaving in particular ways. You imitate what you see and assume that such behavior is proper, good, and expected.
Authority. If you tend to respect authority, and your cult leader claims superior knowledge, power, and special missions in life, you accept him as an authority.
Liking. If you are the object of love bombing and other tactics that surround you, make you feel wanted and loved, and make you like the people in the group, you feel you ought to obey these people.
Scarcity. If you are told that without the group you will miss out on living a life without stress; miss out on attaining cosmic awareness and bliss; miss out on changing the world instantly or gaining the ability to travel back in time; or miss out on whatever the group offers that is tailored to seem essential to you, you will feel you must buy in now."

Sounds like a pretty good fit to me.

[Anonymous]

when i hear cleveland and night-shifter talk about being "allowed" to do things, it surprises me 'cause i thought at seed you would "get ur life back" and then simply cud come and go as you please or lived their makin' decisions with the tools you had received. why were u askin' for permission to do everything? how about dating, or having fun (sex), could you be straight, or bi, or gay? could you invite people to your place that were not from there? could you fall in luv with a girl and get married? could you have your own religion and atten church each week? Could you watch whatever you wanted on T.V.? What about going out? Couldou just take off and drive on your own or go on vacation whenever you wanted? IF not, what did you do all that time for years and years and years?

By the way, night-shifter, what do u mean by night-shiftin?

[Antigen]

On 2005-01-25 10:17:00, Anonymous wrote:

 I remember at school when I first went back-someone asked me for a smoke. I was scared shitless.

Scared of what?

I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure.
--Clarence Darrow, American lawyer

[cleveland]

Doing anything outside of the approval by the Seed hierarchy was flat wrong, and you risked being expelled. There was some leeway for high status people, who could have a bit more freedom than the typical oldcomer. But the run-of-the-mill seedling devoted their time 100% to the group. Work, rap session, baseball/football, home - ALL with other Seed people. No, there was no dating unless Art approved of it - not without being asked to leave the group. No, there were no vacations that I was aware of. Here I was in south Florida, and I only went to the beach with the group to play football, I never sailed or hiked or water-skied. ONCE, (in 7 years) I went with a group of guys to Key West and snorkled, and ONCE fished in the Everglades. Both times with high-status former staff members. NEVER on my own - NEVER with a non-Seed friend. Never had a date, went to a concert, wore a non-Seed t-shirt, visited a museum, had a picnic! SEX - are you kidding me? you mean with someone other than my right (maybe left) hand? And that was 'having my head in the gutter' so I felt guilty about it too. I traded my freedom for the security of being 'loved' and the promise of developing a 'higher awareness' and 'saving the world.' In return, I had a non-stop schedule of work, chores around the house, and 'helping out' around the Seed.

SURE, we played ping-pong, watched TV, and other 'normal' activities. Amish? No, but it's not too far off...

[Antigen]

On 2005-01-27 07:47:00, cleveland wrote:

There were yearly 'talent shows' and kids would practice for those.

Kids? Did everybody refer to non staff as kids? Or were there actually minors there?

The last struggles of a great superstition are very frequently the worst.
--Andrew Dickson White (1832-1918)

[cleveland]

There were minors. The age range of newcomers was as young as 12 or 13, on up to early 20s, a few a bit older. There weren't too many though. We called ourselves "Seed Kids" but I would have never called a staff person a "kid." Staff were turning 35 when I was there, which seemed unbelievably old. Jr. staff were early 20s. Art was 54 years old when I came in in 1979 - just eight years older than I am now! Yikes!

[Antigen]

On 2005-01-27 12:58:00, cleveland wrote:

"Doing anything outside of the approval by the Seed hierarchy was flat wrong, and you risked being expelled.

Oh that I understand. I remember sitting all alone in front of the Straight building on Cattlemen Road waiting for a school bus. I was feeling scared and maybe a little guilty (or maybe into my head about not feeling guilty?) that someone might catch me humming a Rod Stewart song. Rock? Hardly. But what can I say, it was stuck in my head that day. (It was Maggie Mae, maybe there was a reason)

Anyway, I should have quoted more context.

On 2005-01-25 10:17:00, Anonymous wrote:

"but when I went to South Broward in Hollywood forget it. I was ridiculed, pushed, books pushed out of my arms, one time in art class when the teacher left the room a few kids took a paint brush with paint and painted my face...all the time calling me brainwashed, seedling. I can not forget that. And defend myself..how could I..I wasn't allowed to talk to them much less fight them or push them away.   ::bangin::  :grin: "

I wonder if the person who posted this would answer my question. Not trying to be combative here. (had my fill of that in the Straight forum lately) I'm just curious what this person was scared of before they got pissed.

A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

[Ft. Lauderdale]

So Wally were you ambedectrious with any other sports or anything ::drummer::

I had to say it.

[Antigen]

On 2005-01-27 13:10:00, cleveland wrote:

We called ourselves "Seed Kids" but I would have never called a staff person a "kid." Staff were turning 35 when I was there, which seemed unbelievably old. Jr. staff were early 20s. Art was 54 years old when I came in in 1979 - just eight years older than I am now! Yikes!"

So were Jr. staff kids or not? And can anyone who came along later or stayed longer tell me if they still keep to this practice? I know it probably seems like nitpicking to some. But I think it's interesting if Art and Shelly and, I suppose, Lybbi had people in, say, their late 20's calling themselves and thinking of themselves as kids.

Babylon in all its desolation is a sight not so awful as that of the human mind in ruins.
-- Scrope Davies: Letter to Thomas Raikes, May 25, 1835.

[Ft. Lauderdale]

Actually it was me that posted that Antigen.  Honestly I was afraid of  someone rejecting me. I guess Honestly I can still feel the same way about things today and yes I can take it back to early childhood my father never really liked me i wasn't good at sports my sister that was a year younger than me was better at everything than me like school and sports and was totally popular and also looked older than me (there is no justice I look 10 years older than her now) ::boohoo:: So ya all that played into it but.. for once I was like f*** it I'm not talking to you because I don't want to, I'm not giving you a smoke because I don't want too. It felt kinda good at the time to feel like I was siding with the good guys for a change.  & no I didn't think I was better than anyone although I know there was a chance of this.  I just for once had a good feeling about myself in my gut that I was OK and I didn't need to kiss ass.

[Antigen]

On 2005-01-27 13:41:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Actually it was me that posted that Antigen.  

Oh I know. But I won't blow your cover, ever. It's policy around here.

Honestly I was afraid of  someone rejecting me. I guess Honestly I can still feel the same way about things today and yes I can take it back to early childhood my father never really liked me i wasn't good at sports my sister that was a year younger than me was better at everything than me like school and sports and was totally popular and also looked older than me (there is no justice I look 10 years older than her now) ::boohoo:: So ya all that played into it but.. for once I was like f*** it I'm not talking to you because I don't want to, I'm not giving you a smoke because I don't want too. It felt kinda good at the time to feel like I was siding with the good guys for a change.  & no I didn't think I was better than anyone although I know there was a chance of this.  I just for once had a good feeling about myself in my gut that I was OK and I didn't need to kiss ass.  "

Well glad to hear it. I remember the first time I really started to feel my oats that way. It was before the program (or at least before I had been a client) and I'd been bullied relentlessly by this one girl. Then she had friends (we had once been friends, so that really hurt!) Anyway, I just got to the end of what I could stand. I refused to turn snitch and just called her bluff in the locker room in front of all the other girls. Everyone was shocked. Never thought I had it in me.

The glory of it all came when some of the other girls suggested telling the coach, which is what I expected to happen. But one of the golden girls, by that I mean honor roll and student government, spoke up for me. "Well, did you think she should just take it forever?"

She and I had never been friends or enemies, just classmates w/ different .... lifestyles, for lack of a better word. But I'd always respected her very much, so it meant a lot to me.

Social proof, or peer pressure, is not always an unhealthy thing. The hazing stopped right then and there w/o any body getting really hurt. And I walked a little taller thereafter.

Here's freedom to him who would read;
 
Here's freedom to him who would write;

None ever feared that the truth should be heard,

But them that the truth would indict.


--author unknown (circa 1914)

[Anonymous]

I was at The Seed from 1980 - closing. I graduated four months after I entered the program. The culture at the seed definitely changed after the 90's, which seems to be of interest here, so I will focus on the 90?s era. I will be as balanced / objective in my statements as I can possibly be.

First, let me say that I did not witness any of the "physical abuses," claimed by some of the 70?s generation in the forum. I recognize that I was not there before 1980, also.

The closeness experienced by some that I lived with was extremely tight by the mid 90's. We were in a sense "like family," although now I see it as an illusion. It is, however, inevitable to not have felt a "deep bond," when you lived with some people for close to 20 years.


There was no doubt a strong element of a personality cult. For instance, many of you speak of  L. as someone who, in the earlier years, established her presence but was simply another staff member (perhaps a quite a bit stronger than others). By the 90's she definitely "sat on the right hand of God" for many that were still around. As a matter of fact, for some she became a living myth that was more respected than art (for sure by the late 90's).

I was one of the followers; it is as simple as that. I do believe that one of the reasons I was not in any "inner circle" was because I was not a doctor or lawyer or had money. I made my way on my own and academically accomplished my career and personal goals despite, as previous have claimed, that staff did try to hold me back from accomplishing those goals.

(to be continued)

[cleveland]

Hey Whatever,

I hope to hear more from you. I really appreciate your posting.

I have learned so much from this forum, that's all I can say. It's a gift to be able to be myself, to think my thoughts, to choose my influences.

I used to feel ashamed of my time at the Seed, that it was evidence of my being a loser. Not anymore. Especially through this forum, I have come to terms with the years that I spent as a part of the Seed. I was just trying to be happy and good, and to believe in something.

So, keep it coming!