How about some damn ANSWERS.

[Antigen]

Ok, here are some answers and I have some questions.

On 2004-12-26 13:08:00, Anonymous wrote:

Niles - Only the therapist and the teen know what the process was during therapy. That's confidential as it is with any patient/client realationship. If a student wants to share this, fine.

Sure, if there are individual therapy sessions, those are confidential. I wouldn't dream of asking about the content of confidential sessions in a public forum. I am interested, though, in the content of non-confidential group therapy sessions. I know they have a policy of confidentiality, but that agreement is joined by minor children who cannot legally or ethically give such consent or make such agreements.

So what kinds of topics do you remember from the parent seminars? What about the kids? What kinds of topics are the kids asked to divulge to their peer groups?

This was MY personal experience:

We went to the program together, no transport services.

Toured, met with staff, met with students. Saw every nook and cranny of the school. Met the student who would be his "buddy" for the first few days.

Said our goodbyes - very emotional for both of us.

Wrote letters to begin the process of rebuilding our communication - The first letters were angry and manipulative. we got the full uncensored venting.

Did you wonder if the program was not quite what your kid saw and agreed to during the tour? And how do you know they weren't censored? I ask because  LOT of people find out later, if they ask their kids, that they actually didn't receive all the mail that the kid sent. Kids too report not receiving gifts and letters from home. But you won't know unless you ask. Neither will your kid.

skipping some for brevity
...
Parent/Child 1 - more indepth than the parent weekend, defined personal and family values, how to apply what we learned about each other, respecting our differences, more goals, beginning the process of a home contract. Getting to the heart of anything we felt was still unresolved in our relationships - us and other family members, old friends and choices.

Who defined the family values? And how; by what criteria?

Parent/Child 2 - the graduation workshop. I call it the "no sugar coating" workshop - leaving no stone unturned. Talked about the fear of having old behaviors come up, what to do about it, separating normal teen choices from the old stuff, a commitment to stay true to ourselves but to work together as a family. A commitment to continue asking for help when needed. We acknowledged that mistakes happen, it's what we learn from them that makes the difference. Defining what success means in our family.

Again, who defined what is and is not normal teen behavior? You? Normal for your family or community? Normal for your expectations?

He was at grade level, making straight A's with all his credits transferring to his home high school. Close to 4 years home, graduated high school and remains drug free. Learned to control his anger and believes in himself. We continue to have "respectful" communication even if it's not what we want to hear. He's still the same kid, minus the attitude and drugs, making choices that he owns. I'm still the same person minus the blame and anger that contributed to what happened. Lots of deep, inner soul searching and work.

Four years home and just graduating high school??? So I take it, then, that he was only around 13 going in? How can an 18 year old possibly be the same person minus the attitude as when he was 13? And who would want an 18 year old who hadn't changed (except to be more compliant) since age 13? (answer: my mother, for one)

Government operates best when it allows all messengers to offer their views, allowing the American people to decide which take root and which wither away.
--Harold Furchtgott-Roth, member of the Federal Communications Commission

[Anonymous]

Dr. Robert J. Lifton's Eight Criteria for Thought Reform
 

Milieu Control.  This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

Mystical Manipulation.  There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.

Demand for Purity.  The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection.  The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.

Confession.  Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group.  There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.

Sacred Science.  The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute.  Truth is not to be found outside the group.  The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

Loading the Language.  The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand.  This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.

Doctrine over person.  Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.

Dispensing of existence.  The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not.  This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology.  If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the  members.  Thus, the outside world loses all credibility.  In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also.  (Lifton, 1989)

[Anonymous]

If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also.


This is why there is no getting through to them.
You are just a Chattering Pig and not worth listening to.

[Nihilanthic]

I'm not trying to shut up the criticism here, but I made this thread with the intent to either get from the supporters *either parents or a previous 'student' there* what exactly is done in there to bring about the life changes and therapy or whatever.

Do you just not know? Does it amount to just doing what you're told? Whats the deal?

The other thing I dont understand, is while yeah specific 1-1 confidentiality is a good thing... you can still describe how that KIND of treatment is done. Like, if its depression, they use a similar method, dont they? If its anger management, its similar, right? What about PTSD or eating disorders?

I could go to a psychologist and ask how theyd treat something or ask a doctor how they treat a broken leg... and they dont say "we make your leg feel better and fix the underlying problem with its lack of strength". They say they set the bones in a cast  so they grow together and give painkillers if needed.

How timoclea laid it all out was very good. Would someone answer her?

Whats the specific what and how?

What was done with the seed saved from the India Hemp last summer? It ought, all of it, to have been sewn again; that not only a stock of seed sufficient for my own purposes might have been raised, but to have disseminated the seed to others; as it is more valuable than the common Hemp.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/188301123X/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>George Washington, Writings of Washington, Vol. 35, pg. 72

[Antigen]

Here's an example.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#71510

When my kid came to us after nearly a year at Casa/WWASPS, she struggled with making friends. A couple of tiny-brained mothers forbade their daughters consorting with her, as she had been "sent off to a school" and obviously was a real risk for their precious children to befriend.

Did you kid complete the program? If not, then I wouldn't want my kid 'consorting' with him/her either. There's too much of a difference in the integrity of a grad than someone who didn't complete.

You see how simple it is? Just redefine "acceptable friends" as program graduates in good standing and "unacceptable friends" as all others. If your kid makes new friends and you're not 100% sure whether you like them or not, call the parent coordinator for guidance. If the kid's not game for the coordinator's advice, why don't worry. Just take another Prozac and trot out the warrantee.

Of course, if you leave the group by pulling your kid or by just not enforcing TOUGHLOVE at home after graduation, none of the members in good standing will consort with you or your child. So you're effectively screwed, unless and until it dawns on you that it's all manipulative bullshit and this is not a club worthy of yours or your kids' membership.

Nother example. A lot of people believe that the Program gave them the gift of Awareness. Doesn't matter whether they viewed the Program as good, bad or somewhere in between. They believe they learned from it the ability to size someone up and figure them out pretty reliably in seconds flat. What we really learned was to make snap judgements about people based on shaky criteria and to invest full faith in them. At the time, it sure seemed like something special. In retrospect, that and a buck fifty might get you a decent cup of coffee somewhere.

To be perfectly clear, I'm not just throwing stones here. This is not just a description of one of the down sides of the Program. What I mean is that this, literally, is how the Program works. It offers exactly nothing at great expense by convincing the consumer that it is something so rarified as to be worth the cash and all other commitments, up to and including severing ties w/ anyone (including close kin) who may try to point out to you that it's bullshit.

Babylon in all its desolation is a sight not so awful as that of the human mind in ruins.
-- Scrope Davies: Letter to Thomas Raikes, May 25, 1835.

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Anonymous]

Antigen - Your post is a few past, but haven't figured out how to do the quote thing.

1. I never had a reason to think that what we saw wasn't the way it really was.   I know his letters weren't censored.  I also know he received everything we sent, letters and gifts, as he acknowledged them either by letter or phone.  In fact, I never heard about censoring from kids or parents until I came to this forum.  Staff always checked incoming mail/packages for contraband, and a good practice.

2. We, as a family defined OUR values, both personal and family.  Are you asking if someone defined them for us?  Then the answer is no.

3.  Normal teen behavior was defined by us. Normal (which is only a word because what is normal?) for our family,  meant that it wasn't a life-threatening, dangerous action or MAJOR disrespect, for us or himself.  

4.  He graduated high school two years ago, and has been in college for 2 semesters.  His choice to go.  

He's the same "core" person, no one is the same as they were yesterday.  I would never describe him as "compliant!"  

I'll leave the therapy/in program questions for Perrigaud, or another grad.  What I would say would only be what my son told me and that's not my place.  It's also private.

[Antigen]

On 2004-12-27 18:43:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Antigen - Your post is a few past, but haven't figured out how to do the quote thing.

It's pretty easy. Use {quote} to start a quote and {/quote} to end it, replacing the curley braces ({) with square brackets ([) Click the "Quote" button instead of "Reply" and it'll start a reply w/ the entire post quoted for example.

1. I never had a reason to think that what we saw wasn't the way it really was.

Then what changed his mind between the time he toured the facility and when he started writing letters? You took his word that he was willing to stay there when you took him. What, exactly, makes you think these letters were any less reliable than that?

2. We, as a family defined OUR values, both personal and family.  Are you asking if someone defined them for us?  Then the answer is no.

So then, what part did the Program play in this?

3.  Normal teen behavior was defined by us. Normal (which is only a word because what is normal?) for our family,  meant that it wasn't a life-threatening, dangerous action or MAJOR disrespect, for us or himself.  

Yeah, we have the same policy here. What's a Program got to do with that?

Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

[Anonymous]

1.  Maybe I'm tired, but I don't understand what you're saying.  All I know is that he came home with all the letters we ever sent to him, and had all his letters.  We had a little "releasing the past" party several years ago and sat and read them together and then trashed them - and btw, he never agreed to go and stay.  

2.  The workshops helped a great deal to define our core values.  It was a process of learning what our values really are.  It's been a long time, but I remember have a list of around 100 or so values, like communication, fun, honesty, respect, etc.,

I used to say that I valued family fun, but never defined what that meant.  It sounded good, but until the workshop, it was only a term. Pre-program, fun was running away from my responsibilities as a parent.

3.  It was down on paper, signed by the family. Pre-program it would have been laughed at and and torn up, not followed through on, etc., etc. It was defined by all of us, not just the parents.  Son had a major role in defining what he considered "normal." Pre-program, normal would have been anything he thought he could get away with.  

Now, do I wish there would have been another way to have do all this without a program?  You betcha.

[Nihilanthic]

1. He never agreed to go to the program? And, you just disregarded all of his letters offhand? Thats a GOOD thing?

2. HOW do these 'workshops' define your values? Whats the process of learning? You still havent said anything!

3. And if he had a role in defining it... dont you think the program and yourself had a LOT of pressure on him to do what they felt he should? And what was the process for THIS, as well?

668: The Neighbor of the Beast
--Anonymous Postman

[Anonymous]

Timoclea - before you accuse me of being "vague" or "avoiding," you should know this is really something that has to experienced personally.  I had no idea what I was going to walk away with and if someone had told me what to expect, or what any of it would have done, it wouldn't have been the same, I know that. I seriously don't understand why it's even an issue or even important.  Unless it's a fear of the unknown and you and others want to have it all laid out in advance or to rest assured it's not cultish brainwashing.  

It's simple, if you really want to know then GO!Did you know you don't have to have a kid in any of the WWASPS schools to go?  Though it's free for parents, it's only about $300.00 for anyone else.  I'd say the value is much higher compared to other workshops I've gone to that cost more. Do you know that in January alone there are 15 seminars with anywhere from 100-150 people at each one?  These people may be mostly parents, but they are also  business owners, police officers, judges, nurses, doctors, therapists, secretaries, housewives, writers, people from all ethnic backgrounds, educations and religions.  You'll find that most of them are grateful for this experience.


Do you know they hold the same seminars for corporations?  I'd send you the link, but don't want to be accused of marketing.  So in answer to one of your questions.  I recommend these seminars to anyone who is stuck or unhappy in their life and wants to make some changes.  Change can either be scary or welcome.

[Nihilanthic]

Stop pushing the damn seminars!

There is aboslutely no reason you have to avoid, dodge, and parry everything, and come back with 'fear of the unknown'.

Unless you are under hypnosis, scared, or stupid, you will remember what they did with (or to) you in the seminars, and how you felt. You can tell us what it was like. You walk in, you sit down, you do this, you do that, this is what you felt, this is what they said. Stop giving us all the vague, general, feel blablabla you have to be there blablabla "fear of the unknown". Fear of the unknown isn't why I dont wish to experience rape or abduction - its a conscious choice to not have to experience emotional trauma and injury.

All this avoidance is utter bullshit. Deal with it. We're not shelling out money and putting our head on the chopping block (dont give me bullshit - I've read those writeups from people who WERE in the seminars and did not like them and had GREAT detail) for something we suspect!

All you did is dodge, and push the seminar, and try to sell it to us. ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTION!

We ALL know you couldn't pull off this shit in one of those seminars or programs. So why do you with us so hypocritically?

To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Anonymous]

I agree what else does this parent need to tell you and all the kids that have been through it and not hateful and revengful. You simlply will not allow yourself to believe that kids are actuall getting help at these schools, and anyone that tells you different is a programed robot. Just nuts! Thank you to the parent for shraing, it helps me feel even better about what I do. The one that cares

[Anonymous]

also do you believe that every kid is telling the truth, or could they possibly be not telling the truth???

[Perrigaud]

Here are my specifics. I'm giving you my personal experience. Bare in mind that everyone's experience is different (specifically).
 1. I first arrived at CBS. I was loosely escorted there. No shackles however there was secrecy.
2. I had a "hope buddy". She taught me all the rules, regulations, and way of life.
3. There was a point system with the possibility of demerits. The point in having the regulations was to teach discipline. We were allowed 10 category 1's. After that they became cat 2's. They ranged from 1-6. Cat 2's and above landed you in worksheets. This was a tape lecture on 100 greatest novels or 100 famous people. Each tape was 45 minutes long. We had to then take a test on it. We could earn up to 3 points per tape. Most cat 2's were about 15 points that needed to be worked off. I never got any higher than a cat 2. However girls that did were in worksheets for a while. If it was something along the line of attempting to run away or suicide watch they were to be in arms length of a staff member. If a girl was acting out she was put in isolation to cool off. A few times there were girls that got violent and yes they did get "taken down" by a staff member. Picking her up off the floor is an example. I personally never saw any girl get sat on or had some self defense moves pulled on her.
3. There were 6 levels to achieve. Some refer to them as phases. I prefer levels. One could always move down levels. That would happen if the girl was dishonest, not productive, or had too many categories.
4. The way to move up levels was to have support from the staff as well as your peers. As well as seminars.
5. Each level brings more responsibility, trust as well as privelages.
6. Group was a daily thing. What happened in group was always different. I transferred to CCM and had a therapist. In group we would talk about issues (one of mine was adoption), share our feelings uncandidly, give each other advice, or share a project we might have been given. One of my projects was to share my life before CCM, my life during, and aspirations for the future.
7. SEMINARS. Well you have Discovery, Focus, Accountability, Keys to Success, PC1,and PC2. Since I was there 3.5 years ago they've added a couple. Discovery was a 3 day seminar in which we were in a co-ed room. Most people who go through Discovery are new to the program. Therefore most have a lot of anger and resentment. We have "processes" which are workshops if you will. One was about choices. Another one was about how we let our fears run us. To be specific we were asked to walk across the room in a silly manner ("walk across the room with the silliest face on). Naturally we were hesitant. Another process was when we were asked to tell how we really felt about oursleves and the choices we made. Basically Discovery was where we discovered that were not the only ones that feel so sad, angry, helpless, alone, or what-have-you.
Focus. By this time we were starting to realize the aspects in our life that we needed to work out. A major process was that we were given a role that was the opposite of who we were. For example I was always quick to shoot my mouth off. In return I was given the role of a mime. A mime doesn't talk. However they still can communicate.
Accountability. This one was when you were 1/2 way through the program. One process was a rating line. You had to stand up in front of the seminar and state what percentage you thought you were working. If people saw that you were in fact doing that percentage they stood. If they didn't they'd sit. It's a scary thing to be honest with yourself. Many people say they are, but in fact they aren't and deep down they know it. Another process was finding out why we do revert into a certain mode. My mode was to become an angry mean girl. It was easier that way or so I thought.
Keys: A seminar that focused on one thing for 2 days. The topic could be the opposite sex. Another could be friends. These were for upper levels.
PC1: Parent-Child. Just as we were learning so were our parents. One process had us face each other and speak our minds. Easy? No. Together you and your family start to work on different ways of handling things. I told my mom that I thought she was weak because she never spoke up as much as my dad did. I told my dad he had no tact. At this point you also work on the plan for returning home. You begin to lay down the foundation (rules and consequences).
PC2: The day you get to go home (for most). I was scared to go home for fear I'd fall into the same lifestyle. I expressed it. My family and I wrote down our ideas for coming home. Basically you are to review the plan for returning home and working out any last questions.
8. As I moved up the levels I got more contact with my family. My 1 on 1 therapies consisted of me talking about how hard it was for me to deal with the death of my biological sister, teenage pregnancy, adoption, friends committing suicide and me witnessing it. There were a lot of things that I personally didn't deal well with. I kept it all inside until it festered.
All in all the program was never guaranteed and my family knew that. It wasn't the end all. I'm not cured. I walked in a trouble person and came out a person with the same demons and issues. The difference is that I can deal with things now. I'm no longer a violent person. I'm actually amiable. Did I need to have the program to change me? In my opinion yes. I was dead inside and now I appreciate my life. Should anyone want the full details of seminars ask me. It takes a long time to explain 3 days.

[Anonymous]

First of all, thanks for providing all this info about the seminars. I am trying to get a full picture of what a seminar is like.

Should anyone want the full details of seminars ask me. It takes a long time to explain 3 days. "

Alright. Could you give us the full details of the seminars? Take your time if you need it.