successfull seed graduates

[Anonymous]

OK, no official connection but that's when these "theraputic communities" started popping up.  It was also at the beginning of Nixon's War on Drugs.  This created an atmosphere of fear and contempt and bore the idea of getting tough on druggies.  It seems to me a fairly natural evolution of someone with that mindset.  Sick and twisted, but natural for them.

[Anonymous]

Not to mention that it gave ol' Art the opportunity to be worshipped and adored the way all cult leaders yearn for.

[Stripe]

On 2004-12-10 07:45:00, GregFL wrote:

"On the other side, Stripe, I don't wish Art or any of them anything but the same peace I seek myself. In fact I would love to talk to any of them



Now that wasn't always true. I think once upon a time I would have danced on Art's  grave. Not now, I don't begrudge anyone anything anymore.



"

Yeah, you are probably right and some day I'll be there.  I'm just not there today.  Thanks.

[GregFL]

On 2004-12-10 08:15:00, Anonymous wrote:

"OK, no official connection but that's when these "theraputic communities" started popping up.  It was also at the beginning of Nixon's War on Drugs.  This created an atmosphere of fear and contempt and bore the idea of getting tough on druggies.  It seems to me a fairly natural evolution of someone with that mindset.  Sick and twisted, but natural for them."

There is no question that the synanon was the springboard for the ENTIRE "teen help industry" that has evolved into what it is today.

Once upon a time I credited Art Barker for creating the first synanon style treatment center for non addicted youths. Then I found out CEDU, which is LINEARLY connected to synanon, predated the Seed by about 2 years. Then there was daytop, Elan, Phoenix house, and a host of synanon rehabs springing up everywhere, from one end of the country to the other. All of them were started by synanites.

Then, out of nowhere, with no obvious connection to the synanon, comes the Seed using similar techniques. The Seed was the first program to "treat" large numbers of non addicted kids with AA and synanon style treatment in warehouses. That is Art's legacy...he is the pioneer of the warehousing of america's youth into thought control cults.

So here we are, 35 years later, and we still can't get a straight answer on how and where Art learned of the synanon style of treatment.

Art (or Shelly), John or Cliff, Libby or Suzie, if you are reading this, let us off the hook. We would love your participation here and have some direct questions that only you guys can answer.

 Don't we at least deserve to know our own story?

[Anonymous]

I really don't understand what is so confusing here.  He saw the others that you mentioned and created his own version.  Are you looking for some sort of smoking gun??  Does it have to be LINEARLY connected in order for him to have taken what he saw or read about and make it his own?

[GregFL]

On 2004-12-10 08:57:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I really don't understand what is so confusing here.  He saw the others that you mentioned and created his own version.  Are you looking for some sort of smoking gun??  Does it have to be LINEARLY connected in order for him to have taken what he saw or read about and make it his own?"

the techniques didn't come to him in a dream. There was no internet, no book on how to set up a synanon based treatment program.

How did he "see" it? That is the question.

Yes, I am looking for the "smoking gun". I think it exists on some level.

[Anonymous]

I know there was no internet, but Synanon did receive a good bit of publicity in the mid 70s for their unorthodox methods.  If Art was looking to set up some kind of a program to help the troubled youth of America I imagine he would have done some research into the reportedly most successful methods or 'the latest and greatest'.  He wouldn't have needed the internet to become aware of the new "theraputic communities" that were beginning to spring up.  

There may be some smoking gun.  It would add one more piece to the puzzle.  I guess that specific line just isn't one of the most critical pieces to me.  I just don't see it as that much of a mystery.

[Robin Martin]

On 2004-12-10 06:19:00, GregFL wrote:

"Robin, if you knew more about who you were talking to, you wouldn't say that. Instead, you would find she is just now confronting what happened to her and working thru it. She is seeking help and peace...from within herself.


Your post was a little condensending I think.

I have no need in being condesending to anyone hurting and still in pain.  I also do not discount there was major abuse to some - just not done to me or anyone else in my circle of friends. This is why I find this site very interesting yet complex.  It's not black & white for ANYONE, is it?

"...if you knew more about who you were talking to, you wouldn't say that..."  Well Greg, news flash :wstupid:  in trying to separate the "Who's who of Anons" so if you REALLY wish me to know you and understand what you are about, let's pick a name - any name! Or feel free to always e/m me privately as others have done.

I understand those wanting to remain Anon but don't bully me Greg by saying "if you knew..."
Okey Dokey??

Peace to all,

[GregFL]

Nice diatribe Robin...But she made it clear in this thread who she was ...STRIPE.  That was clear from the very beginning..I said "if you knew MORE about who you were taking to" not if you knew who...because that was clear as this.. ::bangin::



Look, you are right it isn't black and white. But it isn't also right vs wrong, evil vs good, seedlings vs druggies, pro vs con or any other adverserial situation. we are all just a bunch of middle aged people that went thru rehab 30 something years ago in the same nuthouse cult.

Often when people find this site they get angry. These old memories were sometimes pushed way down for many years, and people tend to go thru a whole range of emotions when they confront this, especially those that were traumatized by the seed and haven't run around the last 30 years feeling "saved" about being locked up,"modified" and coerced into a cultic love fest.


My point is, we have a huge range of opinions here, but we really are all on the same side.

Except ft lauderdale of course.     :grin:

I notice that lately we all seem a little quick to jump to anyone's defense over small stuff. Lets all think about loosening up a little. Disagreement of this forum is actually a very positive thing, IMO.

[Stripe]

Not particularly interested in pursuing this much further with you, Robin. As you say, everyone's experience was different.  Obviously, your experience and my experience were like night and day.  

I don't care to get into a discussion with you in which I am perceived as trying to convince you the place was bad anymore than I want you to tell me it was all goodness and light.  

I pose but one general question for anyone:

How is it that a place that preached such "love and honesty" turn out people with such varied and different experieces?  

Could it be that there was more than one kind of program being run at the same time ?

That's all I can fugure. I guess some people were lucky and fell into the truly protected group of people  who never had to worry about being stood up and come down on, started over, toilet seats, and all that other cruel crap they used to run on us.

[cleveland]

All I can say is: The Seed may have been a top-down hierarchy, but it was also a bunch of late-adolescent-to-early 20s kids running around, taking kids home, leading raps, trying to be 'straight' - and all of these kids had only months before been hanging out with their friends getting drunk and getting high - now they were 'perfect' seedlings? So, depending upon who your oldcomer was, who was on staff at the time, and hundreds of other variables, the experience could be SO different.

When I moved from Cleveland to the Florida Seed in the late 70s, things had a totally different feel. The Cleveland Seed had the charismatic, hilariously funny Scott B. as the senior staff, with the grimmer, more serious Bob W. as his counterpart. My oldcomers were all serious gearheads, construction workers, greasers, hard-asses. There was kind of a macho vibe in Cleveland. Moving to Florida - almost all the staff were women, there were palm trees and balmy weather - it was different.

When I read about toilet seat humiliations and other excesses, those things just weren't part of my experience. I was also a volunteer as were many of my cohorts as the laws had changed, making it illegal to compel someone thru the courts or by parental decree to 'get straight.' So it was different.

I have to point out though, that subtle forms of humiliation and ostracism were always part of the Seed experience, as there would be with any group that is trying to enforce it's own group standards. No room for dissent or ambiguity at the Seed!

_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-12-13 07:22 ][ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-12-13 07:23 ]

[GregFL]

Just one point Cleveland. It really didn't become illegal to "compel" someone into treatment, the tools of the trade just changed and Art didn't change with it.

Nowadays, they put you in and instead of threatening you with a court order, they threaten you with the Baker act,and use it quite liberally when people refuse to sign themselves in.  

The modern day programs also use "escorts" where these burly self rightous assholes come and with the blessing of the parents they kidnap the kids, handcuff them and "transport" them. As illegal as this sounds, oftentimes airlines let them put them on planes like this and even transport them out of the country. All they have to do is say they are transporting a kid into a treatment facility and have a paper signed by the parent.

Also, they just changed the name to "host home" in order to get around the foster home requirements.

Things have changed, but not necessarily for the best.

[cleveland]

Thanks for the detail.

I had some personal experience with this on the other side. My mom, after a life-long battle with depression, started drinking heavily after a divorce, business breakup and the death of her boyfriend. It got so bad that she showed up to family events and her job roaring drunk. I got calls from the police and from coworkers. We arranged for an 'intervention' and she told us all to go to hell, so, I did my best to push it out of my mind. Meanwhile, she got so bad that her house went into foreclosure and she declared bankruptcy, and had to be admitted to the hospital several times in a state of acute alcohol poisoning. Once I even signed her in for an evaluation at a rehab against her will, but she signed herself out in three days, her legal right. However, every time I had Adult Protective Services schedule a visit, she'd clean up her act, serve tea and cookies and charm everyone with her wit and her sense of humor. "We can't do anything for someone who's made bad choices" they told me!

Imagine my dilemma - I don't want her to kill herself (or someone else, she's still driving) but she will not admit to any problems with alcohol. Finally, at the last near-fatal hospitalization, I am able to get a psychiatrist to admit her to a lock down faciality and hold a competency hearing. It was very ugly.

Today, it's a year later, she is sober (perhaps against her will), her health issues have been addressed and she's on medicare/medicaid and has a legal guardian, and is living in a controlled facility. She is better than she's been in years - I actually enjoy being with her. However, she is petitioning the court to end her guardianship and they might do it, so we'll see. Apparently she's admitted (but not to me) a problem with alcohol.

So, while I am a total liberal in almost every respect when it came to my mom destroying her life I was completely ready to lock her up and at least give her the opportunity to sober up before she died of this. It gives me some hint of what parents might have faced or feared when they dropped kids off at the seed.

[GregFL]

Boy what tough decisions you and your brother have had to make. My heart goes out to you guys and I feel sorry for your mother.

My mom is an alcoholic and a compulsive smoker. In fact, it is literally killing her as we speak, she has advanced Emphysema.

Life isn't always black and white, just as Robin said earlier.

[cleveland]

Oh yeah, my mom's a heavy smoker too. It's amazing to see her side by side with her sister, who is older but has taken good care of herself. They're both about 73 - my mom looks like she's in her 80s, my aunt looks like she's in her 60s.

Yes, there is no black or white - sometimes I wish there were clear answers, but no. So we can talk about all of this forever. Human beings seem to have a need to alter their reality, whether it's meditation or skydiving, or alcohol or drugs, and for some people, the temptation turns into an addiction. What do we do with them? What do we do ourselves, when it's us?

Personally I ascribe to the buddhist belief of conscious living - go ahead, smoke, drink, whatever, but pay close attention to how you feel, in the moment. What's the payoff? What's the cost? I think it's useful to be as aware as possible.

Take care, Greg!