Author Topic: Poll about Alcoholics Anonymous  (Read 19126 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Poll about Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #105 on: December 02, 2004, 11:04:00 AM »
Quote
On 2004-12-02 07:02:00, artman11111 wrote:

"Greg
 But your attitude of attacking me personally has truly shown at least me how small a person you are>(as well as the other children here)What a shame it is to be careening through life with such a miserable attitude matched with such anger.I truly feel sorry for you

god bless

art"



Art, why are you claiming victim status here?

Do you know what a personal attack is even? I have not said one word about you personally and don't know you, only have responded to your posts.

I am debating information you posted, not attacking you. If you want to hang around AA meetings (which are full of losers and smokers BTW), then have at it.

But posting your support of AA on this forum opens you up for counter points, and posting your supposed "success" of multiple relapses (which would be no different if you just used Ginger's magical talisman IMO), opens that up for debate as well.

Learn the rules of a forum if you are going to post to one. If you want to complain about personal attacks, then it would be much more big of you to complain about actual attacks such as occur frequently by this message board's trolls(the ones trying to disrupt anyway), idiots and losers. There are plenty of these idiots and morons here to complain about Art, no need to whine at the people that just disagree with your assessment of AA and question your "success" when you so blazenly post you have relapsed multiple times. By whose account is this a "success"?

I have no bad experience in AA because I have never been and would never go. My only experience with them other than being inprisoned in a AA derivitive cult as a teenager has been debating AA types who always cry foul when the obvious glaring fallicies in their logic is pointed out to them.

Enjoy your cult Art. We will never agree on this topic, and if that feels like an attack to you then so be it. I am certain we will agree on other topics in the future.
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Offline GregFL

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Poll about Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #106 on: December 02, 2004, 11:29:00 AM »
forgot to log in, sorry.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #107 on: December 02, 2004, 11:44:00 AM »
Quote
"Again I am sorry for your bad experience. But your attitude of attacking me personally has truly shown at least me how small a person you are"(as well as the other children here)What a shame it is to be careening through life with such a miserable attitude matched with such anger.I truly feel sorry for you"


Beware, glass houses.

Tell you what I think.  When it comes to organized emotional support...be it AA or even religion (one in the same), you are gonna get your quacks and losers right up alongside your genuine, hearts-on-fire folks.  I have learned to take what I need from each set set of rules or doctrines, and incorporate them into who I am...everday.  I dont need a preacher, a sponsor, or a guru.   No one else is responsible for me, except me.   If I am going to to spiral downward into a drug induced frenzy.....I wont be any more or less worse off when I pick up my boot straps and take care of business in life the next day, so long as I keep trying.

Im sorry but, if you have to reach bottom in order to be ready to change....,,then you are worse enough off that you dont need no stinking group of steppers to figure out how to do so.  If your survival instinct does not register anything by that point, well, then chalk it up to natural selection.  The same set of ideas cannot possibly be right for everyone.

I was thinking yesterday alot about how arrogant human beings are that they feel so much that they are ENTITLED to well being.  It takes work folks, and at the end of the day...all you have left is YOU.    This is my beef with admitting I am "powerless".

On the other hand, support is good.  Its good to have someone to understand and hold your hand sometimes.  But reliance on the support system can very easily replace the addiction.  With no better side-effects.
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Offline Carmel

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Poll about Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #108 on: December 02, 2004, 11:44:00 AM »
Sorry! that was me!

Everything in moderation, including moderation.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=circlofmiamithem&keyword=mark+twain&mode=books' target='_new'>Mark Twain

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Offline GregFL

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Poll about Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #109 on: December 02, 2004, 01:50:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-02 09:48:00, artman11111 wrote:


All of your AA info (you said you never been to a meeting) is 2nd hand.



Don't forget Art I was imprisoned in a AA derivitive Cult as a teenager and have made it my business to educate myself on what AA is all about. I have "worked my steps" Art. I "Made amends" claimed I needed a "higher power (the group) and all the other nonsense... Not exactly 2nd hand.

Quote

Including but not limited to your statistics on success.I dont believe those stats could be accurately documented as AA is a anon program.


Not my stats Art. Those are internal AA documents from 1989.  Still don't believe em?  I didn't think so...

Quote

In addition,I think it sucks that many court systems and judges use AA as a babysitting job.


It is much more than that. Terming it "babysitting" when people by the thousands are forced into 12 step based "treatment" when they are not addicted to anything is much more sinister than "babysitting". The 12 step model is perhaps used as a coercive tool and leads to more abusive forced treatment than anything else. Yet it is given automatic legitimacy in our society. Please don't make light of a very serious situation, Art.



Quote


Many of my relapses have been as a direct result of not following the suggestions that people have made,or not being honest with myself and others.


Of course you would say that. AA doctrine suggests that all relapses are because you are powerless and not working your program, and all successes are attributed to the group and/or the higher power.  We knew you would say this Art..nothing mind shattering being said here. Don't forget you are talking to a group of ex "steppers".

Quote



You can take your obvious ignorant opinions and banter with someone else.If you havent experienced 1st hand how "horrible" it is... How do you have an opinion??  
 

Ignorant, eh?  My my are we getting a little testy here?  Hehe...well, I Never said it was horrible Art, just annoying when AA types try to suggest the world is better off because their cult is saving everyone and dangerous and coercive  when forced onto society at large

Quote

all my best



Same to you. Enjoy your cult.
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Offline GregFL

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Poll about Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #110 on: December 02, 2004, 02:05:00 PM »
Hey, this just in from the AARC forum!

Love these topical posts...


"I am now 27 years old, and I struggle still. I have come to realize however, that so much of my struggles have been a direct result of my involvement with 12 step programs. I have watched most of my hard partying friends simply grow up into fairly well adjusted, productive adults. They did this without the help of AA. I often wonder if I had never been involved with the 12-step racket, would I have just grown up. Instead I spent 7 years of my life feeling even more different than the people around me. I felt like I didn't fit in out here, or in the rooms. I am only now beginning to realize that my problem was never with alcohol, my problem was with me, my self esteem...and I am working on overcoming this so I don't turn to drugs and alcohol as a way to act out....



This person, Art, has discovered they are not powerless but instead very powerfull, powerfull enough to recognize a con job and reject it. Unfortunately about 7 years  late.......but better late than never.
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Offline Troubled Turd

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Poll about Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #111 on: December 02, 2004, 04:05:00 PM »
Lissen heah all y'all saddlesores..if someone you know has a prollem with drinkin' there ain't NO solution but t' whip 'em!! Whip their fukkin' ass 'til it's red as a ripe tomato!! :flame: Next time they start thinkin' bout hittin' the bottle deyl think twice fer sure.

That AA bullshit jes' don't work, face it! You can lead a horse to water...well, y'all know what I mean...
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Offline RTP2003

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Poll about Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #112 on: December 02, 2004, 04:21:00 PM »
In the Stepcraft brainwashing manual "12 Steps and 12 Traditions", a
guide for would-be "sponsors", they even tell stepcraft practioners
to encourage drinking/drug use by potential cultists that have not
embraced the fallacious concept of "powerlessness" in hopes that the
person will "hit bottom" and eventually come into the fold. This is
a sick, twisted, and irresponsible tactic that has resulted in the
death of many people. When this occurs, the cultists use the
deceased as an example of what will inevitably occur to those that
don't "do it the NA way". They truly do society, and addicts in
particular, a grave disservice by spreading disinformation on the
nature of addiction and other forms of treatment, the success of
which they routinely deny or disqualify by saying "those people
weren't real addicts".

NA/AA/other forms of stepcraft have all of the earmarks of cults--
Religious orientation; irrationality; rigidity; dogmatism; anti-
intellectualism; a charismatic leader (Bill W[ilson]); a
heirarchical authoritarian structure; submission of the individual
will to "the will of God"; a claim to the ultimate truth; separitism
(us vs. the world mentality); exclusivity (only through us...);self-
absorption (primary focus is on the cult itself); economic
exploitation; going to great lengths to retain members; mind
control techniques; intimidation; manipulation through guilt;
threats of death (Big Book predicts it for dropouts and
nonbelievers); harrassment; deceptive recruiting techniques; closed,
all-encompassing environments (treatment centers where people are
deprived of all non-cult reading material, contact with family or
friends, or telephone access), etc.

The fact that NA/AA has so well infiltrated and subverted legitimate
recovery techniques and methods in the USA( often using the judicial
system to forcibly recruit new members, a flagrant violation of the
US Constitution which has been successfully challenged every time it
has gone to court, thankfully) and other nations has undoubtedly
resulted in the continued suffering and deaths of many unfortunate
addicts who may well have successfully treated their addictions had
other treatment options been known to, or made available to them.


These cult groups are NOT an effective means of treating addiction.
By their own admission, 95% of participants drop out within the
first year, 50% within the first month (1989 AA Triennial Report).

NA/AA/12 Step IS a CULT with no concern for individual addicts, only
for it's own continuation and cancer-like growth. It has portrayed
itself as a benevolent organization that seeks to help addicts, when
in reality it has caused untold suffering to the very groups it
purports to be serving.
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Offline Carmel

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Poll about Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #113 on: December 02, 2004, 04:24:00 PM »
I think its safe too say, that in the case of AA....along with many other things in the world....there can sometimes be TOO much of a good thing.

Your personal experience with AA, Art....does not qualify you to champion AA's cause like you do. No more than Greg's non-experience may justify him.  I think you originally misinterpreted.  Its okay to feel good about AA and what it can do for you and others...but it is dangerously naive to refuse to see the dark side of that same system.  Its this blind faith that stirs fanaticism (not calling you a fanatic).  A state of being not unlike drug or alcohol addiction itself.  For many people AA is an emotional switch out for the substance abuse.  Being that drugs and alcohol are merely a symptom.....well, taking them away isnt going to rectify the behaviour every time.  

Does it not frighten you in the least that you attribute some of your failures to not listening to someone elses idea or message?  What about Art's idea or message?  I beleive that everything happens for a reason, and if I fall down 2 steps.....I will count myself lucky that it may have saved me from falling down 8 or 9 in the future.  

Everything in moderation, including moderation.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=circlofmiamithem&keyword=mark+twain&mode=books' target='_new'>Mark Twain

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #114 on: December 02, 2004, 05:00:00 PM »
What bothers me most about AA is that it was formed out of a religion first of all.  Second, people are living their lives based on these steps and traditions etc.  They were set up by someone who was CLINICALLY CERTIFIABLE AT THE TIME.  Not someone who I'd turn my will and life over to.

Art, I've been in and out of AA for the last 20 years.  Mostly forced from custody issues by AA Nazis.  I've seen good meetings and I've seen horrible meetings.  I've met great people and I've met unbelievable assholes.  I have plenty of AA experience and my problem is not with the people, it's with the basic fundamentals of the program.  It teaches people that they're powerless, it teaches that there's only one way, it teaches that if you don't blindly accept what's being presented to you that you'll end up dying.  THAT is what I feel is so destructive.  

As to the "success rate" of AA:

Quote
There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)

Quote
Spontaneous Remission in Alcoholism
      A number of studies have found that a small percentage of alcoholics improve to the point of remission of problems associated with alcohol consumption. Bailey and Stewart (235) interviewed alcoholics after three years without treatment and found that about 27 percent of the former patients denied alcoholism. Cahalan (268) in a national drinking practices study noted that drinking problems decrease in men after age 50 and the amount of alcohol consumed also decreases. Cahalan, Cisin, and Crossley (11) in another national survey of drinking practices found that about one-third more individuals had problem drinking in a period before their three-year study period than during the study period itself, suggesting a tendency toward spontaneous remission of drinking problems. Goodwin, Crane, and Guze (269) found that on an eight-year follow-up with no treatment about 18 percent of the alcoholic felons had been abstinent for at least two years. Lemere (238) reported long-term abstinence in 11 percent of untreated alcoholics over an unspecified interval. Kendall and Staton (236) reported 15 percent abstinence in untreated alcoholics after a seven-year follow-up. Kissin, Platz, and Su (203) reported a 4 percent one-year improvement rate in untreated lower class alcoholics. Imber et al. (10) described a follow-up of 58 alcoholics who received no treatment for their alcoholism. It was noted that the rate of abstinence was 15 percent at one year and 11 percent after three years.
      In sum, the preponderance of these studies suggests that a spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism of at least one-year duration is about 4-18 percent. Successful treatment would, therefore, have to produce rates of improvement significantly above this probable range of spontaneous remission.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10. Imber, S., Schultz, E., Funderburk, F., Allen, R. and Flamer, R. The Fate of the Untreated Alcoholic. J. Nerv and Ment. Dis., 1976, 162:238-247.
11. Cahalan, D., Cisin, I. H. and Crossley, H. M. American Drinking Practices: A National Survey of Drinking Behavior and Attitudes. New Brunswick, Rutgers Center for Alcohol Studies, 1974.
203. Kissin, B., Platz, A. and Su, W. H. Social and Psychological Factors in the Treatment of Chronic Alcoholics. J. Psychiat. Res., 1970, 8:13-27.
235. Bailey, M. B. and Stewart, S. Normal Drinking by Persons Reporting Previous Problem Drinking. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1967, 28:305-315.
236. Kendall, R. E. and Staton, M. C. The Fate of Untreated Alcoholics. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1966, 27:30-41.
238. Lemere, F. What Happens to Alcoholics. Amer. J. Psychiat., 1953, 109:674-675.
268. Cahalan, D. Problem Drinkers: A National Survey, San Francisco, Jossey-Bass, 1970.
269. Goodwin, W. W., Crane, J. B., and Guze, S. B. Felons Who Drink: An Eight-Year Follow-up. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1971, 32:136-147.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Clinical Management of Alcoholism, Sheldon Zimberg, M.D., page 179, footnotes on pages 223 to 234.
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Offline RTP2003

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« Reply #115 on: December 02, 2004, 05:12:00 PM »
Hey, Anon, how goes it? How's the teefs?

Although your post was an interesting and informative one, it contains FACTUAL information.  This makes it unacceptable reading for the Stepcult members; they have made up their minds to do "the will of Bill W." and don't want to be bothered by the facts.
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Offline Cayo Hueso

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« Reply #116 on: December 02, 2004, 05:18:00 PM »
"There were alcoholics in the hospitals of whom A.A. could touch and help only about five percent. The doctors started giving them a dose of LSD, so that the resistance would be broken down. And they had about fifteen percent recoveries."
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, William G. Wilson, (1957), page 370.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor

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t. Pete Straight
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Offline RTP2003

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« Reply #117 on: December 02, 2004, 05:20:00 PM »
Tonight, I'll go put some in the coffee pot at the NA meeting down the street from my house.....
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #118 on: December 02, 2004, 05:38:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-02 11:55:00, artman11111 wrote:



With your info from 15 years ago and no experience with any AA .... how do you expect me to respond? In addition,I never made any statements like the ones you've written.


You saying AA has changed? Very interesting...My information indicates otherwise. It has always been a loosely watched grouping of independent groups all interpreting the big book.  I have  studied extensively and read much of the AA bible, debated for hours AA members and watched video presentations of AA meeting in addition to spending 7 months of my life in a aa Cult as a teenager. Call me ignorant all you want.

And as for your statements, they are all direct cut and pastes from your post, Art. How can you say you never made them.

Who you trying to fool here?
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Offline RTP2003

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« Reply #119 on: December 02, 2004, 05:43:00 PM »
Quote




Who you trying to fool here?  



"


Himself.
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