Author Topic: Therapeutic Wilderness Camping  (Read 7321 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2004, 02:04:00 PM »
She's look like even more of a saint if she could take her pet reporters in to film neat, raccoon-proof trash and recycle containers, neat little cabins with screening and storm frames (plastic sheeting in wood?) to install for the winter, a neat outhouse with a septic tank and the ability for the otherwise occupied staffer to continue supervising, screening on the mess hall shelter and shiny, spotlessly clean improved food-preparation area.  Even better if it's complete with nice, clean, smiling lady in gloves and hairnet and kitchen-counter-type counter-tops, clean, with clean and shiny stainless steel cookware and utensils.

"Before" and "after" would make her look even more like a saint.  And I know that probably leaves a bad taste in your mouth, but the possibility means your side has something to *offer* this woman, politically.  Or any other politician that wants to take the initiative.

The game is politics.  You can probably get the reform if you play the game, but you have to understand and follow the rules.

Make up and cost out the improvements from the necessities all the way through the wish list, and get it in the hands of some ambitious politician who wants to look like a saint.

Keep in mind that there *might* be federal grant dollars available to fund some of the stuff.  Research those possibilities, too.  If instead of spending Texas tax dollars, all some politician has to do is help shepherd the proposal through a federal grant process, said politician will be even happier.

Timoclea
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2004, 02:04:00 PM »
Come on Anthony. You're smarter than that.
This issue can be about political aspirations AND the need for reform in a system where a child is 5 times more likely to be injured or killed in ou-of-home placements.

And does it matter that the kids are 'offender'? (At least you didn't refer to them as predators) Does that justify them living in squalor and a potentially dangerous/unsanitary environment?

Did you happen to listen to the legislative hearing on this issue?
http://www.house.state.tx.us/fx/av/comm ... 004a51.ram

You can hear Burkett's testimony re: the bad gene pool comment, characteristic to 'foster kids' by advancing to hour 6:22. His resignation is being called for.

Not only are programs being targeted, but so is the rampant drugging of kids, 'from bad gene pools'.

Everybody wants more money and less work. The legislature is good about 'creating paper work', redundant documents, etc etc to make it appear that they're on top of things. State reps are earning plenty of money, comparitively speaking. And at some point, CPS just may be forced to throw in the reins and concede that they can't carry out the job they are sanctioned to do. Might this also be a ploy on their part to get more money? I would not entrust the safety of my child to any of them. And I sure wouldn't trust their judgement in terms of a residential placement.

It is quiet obvious to me that the state will never be able to effectively address these social issues. I have equal disdain for the programs, as they are run.

Bottom line, I seriously doubt that there is an equitable solution that will be in the kids best interest.

I think you might appreciate this parable about why that is true:
http://ishmael.com/Education/Writings/rice_u_2_98.shtml

Which Brown facility did you work for? Ya know, they hold the record for deaths due to illegal restraint. Anything to say in their defense? Seems they have sold most, if not all, of their psuedo psych facilities and have shifted to behavioral facilities.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2004, 03:14:00 PM »
Quote

On 2004-11-04 11:04:00, Deborah wrote:


And does it matter that the kids are 'offender'? (At least you didn't refer to them as predators)

Hi Deborah check the definition of predator. :roll: Again I say let the bleeding hearts care for these "offenders."

Better yet spend time with true victims. Help at a rape crisis center, volunteer to be an advocate for victims at the hospitals. Whatever it takes to clear up the difference between a victim and a predator. Believe me when I say this would change your mind. Very few of these victims does not feel victimized once again when they see just how much better the justice system treats those who are convicted. Victims spend years sleeping in closets, or only during the day out of terror. The spend thousands of dollars (of their own money) in therapy, and guess what sometimes it never gets better for them. I say let the punishment fit the crime...or send them to the bleeding hearts houses. Just keep them away from mine!
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2004, 03:32:00 PM »
Anon, you are clearly missing the point. 'Predators' at one time were also victims. They had a different reaction than the hide-in-the-closet victims. They have the same hurt, humiliation, lack of self worth, fear. But, they have more fight to survive- no matter how scewed that may seem- and have possibly accepted that abuse in all its ugly forms is a fact of life.
You just seem to have more compassion for the closet hider.

I have been there. Odd of you to assume I haven't.

And I totally disagree with your fatalistic view of 'perpetrators'.

Get some burglar bars, buy yourself a gun. Whatever it takes to make you feel safe. But, in case you haven't noticed, the world is not safe. We live in one of the most violent societies in the world. These kinds of issues are going to be common until we re-evaluate our social policies.

This may blow your mind, but I find a sexual 'predator' to be less harmful and certainly less criminal than our power-hungry, war-mongering, fascist president. He seriously needs to be incarcerated and treated. He has lost all touch with reality and stands to hurt/kill millions of people... and already has.

Here's one for ya Anthony and Tim... how bout we use Maslow's theory to develop social policy. Think we could legislate love and caring effectively? Or all we all doom?
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline ehm

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« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2004, 09:30:00 PM »
Is there any relation to Salesmanship Club camps? I think they're in Bastrop, TX too. Isn't that near Austin?
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2004, 09:58:00 PM »
Yes, due East about an hour. WT isn't a SC program.

http://www.salesmanshipclub.org/pages/d ... ernapp.pdf
Salesmanship Club Youth and Family Centers, Inc., offers children and their families three programs: A therapeutic wilderness camp, a community school, and a family center. The Youth Camp, located 100 miles east of Dallas, is a yearround, residential, therapeutic program that provides intensive group living under the guidance of trained counselors, special education classes in an accredited school at camp, and family therapy throughout the placement and for
six months following discharge. The J. Erik Jonsson Community School is located in North Oak Cliff. It is a private school (3-years-old - 6th grade) which emphasizes enriched learning, connections with the community and enhancement of relationship skill building in a year-round program. The Family Center provides therapy, psychological testing and other assistance to families with troubled children (birth to 18) at two locations. In addition, SCYFC offers a
comprehensive research program and a therapy training program called The Reunion Institute.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Antny

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« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2004, 08:34:00 AM »
Quote
On 2004-11-04 18:58:00, Deborah wrote:

"

Yes, due East about an hour. WT isn't a SC program.



http://www.salesmanshipclub.org/pages/d ... ernapp.pdf

Salesmanship Club Youth and Family Centers, Inc., offers children and their families three programs: A therapeutic wilderness camp, a community school, and a family center. The Youth Camp, located 100 miles east of Dallas, is a yearround, residential, therapeutic program that provides intensive group living under the guidance of trained counselors, special education classes in an accredited school at camp, and family therapy throughout the placement and for

six months following discharge. The J. Erik Jonsson Community School is located in North Oak Cliff. It is a private school (3-years-old - 6th grade) which emphasizes enriched learning, connections with the community and enhancement of relationship skill building in a year-round program. The Family Center provides therapy, psychological testing and other assistance to families with troubled children (birth to 18) at two locations. In addition, SCYFC offers a

comprehensive research program and a therapy training program called The Reunion Institute."


For the record, Salesmanship Club closed down it's camping program.  It was an internal decision, probably to beat the onciming political heat...  Poor Cambell Lochmiller, he was the Founder of the Program, and it was a success for years, now the new BOD thinks it's more benificial to do "cummunity based" work.  I was sad to see them close ;(
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Offline Antny

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« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2004, 08:57:00 AM »
I worked at the Brown Schools San Marcos Treatment Center...and no, I have nothing to say do defend them.  They treated Pavlov's doge, not kids.  It was horrific.  

Maybe you're right Deb, political aspirations, and reform (linked)...possible.   It sure does seem to me that if that were the case, the politicians would be interested in the results and the research.  That has not been my experience.

Deb, more children are injured in competitive sports, than therapeutic camping. Does that mean we should stop letting our youth play football?  Your assumption that the camp is "dangerous and unsanitary" is innacurate, based on a blip in time from the media designed to do exactly what it has done to you. There has been no outbreak of disease due to "unsanitary conditions".  It seems to me that these kids are healthier and stronger than your average kiddo who sits in front of the TV or video games all day.  The kids from camp aren't living in danger and squalor.  They are living in our natural environment, together as a community.  Working together to make it in the world and help eachother get better.

I with I had an electronic copy of an article by Steve Cockerham, about the whol subject, but I only have a hard copy.  Here's the point, the practices (in the mold of Cambell Lochmiller's model) is effective, and "equitable" in the fiscal realm.  You don't know.  You haven't been there, and you at least have to realize that the media that you are relying on is the same media that convinced over half of this country that our President is the right guy for the job.  Is that very credible to you?  I've been there, for five years.  I'm not alone, other people whom I don't know and have never talked to have spoken up in defense of the camp.  Why are you so closeminded?

Your link was interesting, I've read Daniel Quinn's Ishmael (while backpacking the Appalachian Trail with two juvenile sex offenders).   It's right on, think outside of your own little box.  That's the concept of Wilderness camping.  It works, quite effectively.  Only someone like yourself who has never seen the model in action could be so adamately against it.

Your slosing statements were a declaration of defeat.  Where is your sense of optimism?  What is Greenpeace was a negative as you about their cause?  Try and think outside your own little box for a bit.[ This Message was edited by: Antny on 2004-11-05 06:03 ][ This Message was edited by: Antny on 2004-11-05 06:03 ][ This Message was edited by: Antny on 2004-11-05 06:07 ]
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2004, 12:58:00 PM »
My skepticism of the industry is warranted- it has hurt many who I love. I take nothing for granted.

My older son spent 6 months in a military BM facility. Came home, after much pleading with his father, with PTSD which resulted in a successful lawsuit. Talk about a Lord of the Rings environment. Ratio 1:60. Older cadets ran the show and one of the more infamous was notorious for having his goons hold down younger boys so he could slap their faces with his penis. Or having them strip and walk down the hall while the others, lined up on the sides made sarcastic remarks and gestures. The highlight of his ?therapy?- distrust of other people, internalized anger which manifested in cutting, devil worshipping, and serious drug use which began so he could fucking quiet his mind enough to sleep. There?s much more, but that will suffice to make the point.

My younger son was shipped away in the night to San Marcos Baptist Military Academy. A week after his arrival at mid-term an oldtimer confided that their dorm officer had been molesting him and other boys. Low and behold the MF is serving 95 years because my son reported it. They have had another inappropriate sexual incident since then. Ten months later my ex decided to send him to the east coast, so I couldn?t ?interfere? with his ?treatment?. He like the sound of ?Therapeutic Boarding School?, given the atrocities with the others. In addition to the experimental mind fucking he endured on a daily basis, he also did a stint in their glorified boot camp, sold as a wilderness leadership program. The ex-military survivalists left him in the woods overnight with a black trash bag and a poncho. No water, no flashlight, and certainly no food. He was puking every 20 minutes and the those ?adults? in charge couldn?t hear his screams for help because the bastards were tucked in their nice warm beds back at base. What if?. He?d had appendicitis or worse?  Did I mention, neither facility was licensed? Highlight of his ?therapy?- my once athletic son, confident, A/B student who was well like by all age groups, was stripped of his self-esteem and taught to think like his pseudo parents- group think. He is recovering. The program perjured themselves to keep my son (my exes money) there.

My neighbor?s son was killed at Skyline Journey Wilderness program due to medical neglect. There is a lengthy thread on that subject if you are so inclined to read the horrors that they put this kids through. Staff and participants harangued and harassed him for being a faker until he proved them wrong. The highlight of his ?therapy?- death.

A business associates grandson was molested in a Baptist BM facility in Waco. Lawsuit pending.

My best friend was boarded at a Roloff  Religious BM facility, called them reform homes then. She ran, was raped by a trucker and said the rape was less traumatizing than the ?treatment?.

There?s a few more, but I think that?s enough to justify my skepticism of the industry. I have no happy success stories to tell. When you take a kid from their home, you damn well better provide the ?better? environment you advertise.

I won?t buy the standard ?window of loss? excuse for harming kids in the industry. Those kids who play sports are not forced against their will to play. They are not in ?therapy?.  NO therapy a kid is involved in should carry with it the risk of death. That?s about the most ludicrous thing you could say. It's a red flag for me, and causes me to second guess my original assumptions, that you are basically a good and reasonable person enmeshed in and conditioned by this horrendous industry. Just curious to know if you've read the accounts of those scores of kids who have died, and if you could defend their sadistic and/or ignorant 'caretakers'.

WT was unsanitary. If you can?t admit that, then you further loose credibility with me, for what that?s worth. Put up some damn dumpsters for the reasons I said earlier. Build a damn outhouse. Build more permanent structures with protection from the extreme elements. If you can?t get the infrastructure right, what?s to say you got the ?therapy? right? If you don?t consider those pictures to define squalor, then you need serious oversight and the program deserves to be closed. One should never be so blind as to think a high ?success? rate is any indicator that the kids have been treated with respect.

My sense of optimism has been altered by the rude awakening that exposure to this industry was the catalyst for- to discover that I indeed live in a nation of moralistic sadists, who get off on torturing social ?deviants?. My optimism lies in educating and staying as far away from them as possible.
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gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2004, 02:23:00 PM »
Quote

On 2004-11-04 12:32:00, Deborah wrote:

"

Anon, you are clearly missing the point. 'Predators' at one time were also victims. They had a different reaction than the hide-in-the-closet victims. They have the same hurt, humiliation, lack of self worth, fear. But, they have more fight to survive- no matter how scewed that may seem- and have possibly accepted that abuse in all its ugly forms is a fact of life.

You just seem to have more compassion for the closet hider.



Disagree away, that's your right. However fatalistic I sound the facts are on my side. Chance for rehabilitation is in fact 0%. That's for youthful and adult offenders. So write me a page or 2 in response. Your point is opinion based, my fact supported.

 Oh and I do have much more sympathy for any victim who does what they have to do to NOT victimize others. How can anyone justify otherwise? Those who choose not to ruin the life of others have my support all the way. Every sick MF has a sob story. Guess what the truth is everyone has had some crappy things happen in life. The "closet hiders" (as you said) aren't hurting anyone else. How can you even suggest they should buy a gun for protection then turn around and think the predators deserve more rights. Look at the statistics, if we locked them up for good the first time the need for said protection would drop enormously. (Oh and the number of your poor victims turned sickos would also decrease) Wow sounds like a win win situation...except for the sexually perverted since it would cramp their fun.
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Offline nightcrawler

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« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2004, 08:45:00 PM »
Deborah-
You mentioned a therapeutic boarding school on the east coast.  Is it called Shortridge Academy in New Hampshire?  
Has anyone been to, or heard stories of SUWS Wilderness school in Gooding, Idaho?  It sounds the same as the rest.
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Offline cherish wisdom

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« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2004, 05:40:00 PM »
Anthy wrote:

"Thing is, most of the Sexual Acting Out I know of at camp was completely consentual. There was always a counselor within earshot, so it's not as is they were vulnerable to forced rape type abuse. It took a two person covert operation for abuse to happen."

Are you aware that minors lack the capacity to consent to sex?  Here you are admitting that sexual activity was going on between the children and it was within the earshot of counselors.  How old were these children?  Don't you think they should have been protected?

The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.


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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2004, 06:34:00 PM »
Nightcrawler,
No it was a different facility.
If you click 'Search WWF' in the left column and type in suws, you'll receive many returns.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline nightcrawler

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« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2004, 08:31:00 PM »
Thanks for the information.  I'm just getting started here, and am still a little lost.
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Offline Antny

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« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2004, 09:02:00 PM »
Deb,  I'm not sure that anything I can say will help you to believe that WT was a quality facility.  And  yes, you are completely warranted in your skepticism of the industry.  If you want more fuel for your fire, visit http://www.fightcps.com
 
Indeed, the system is fucked!  No doubt about it.  That is why I consider it such an outrage to me that a facility that truly only cared about the kids lives was victim to the hysteria around the industry.  Yes, indeed, I've read the accounts of children dying.  I meticulously developed a methodology of restraint that was safe.  No child EVER DIED at WTTC.  I have worked in facilities that treated the children with no respect.  I could not tolerate it.  The environment, and attitude of the administration, and staff, and campers at WTTC was not one of disrespect.  
You can say it was unnsanitary, and you have seen pics and vids that "prove it".  I could itemize a rebuttal for each case, and argue each point, but it is to no avail.  Your mind is made up.  In all honesty, we're sort of on the same side...really.  I want the children in this country to have the best chance they can have.  You're convinced that the Industry is BAD, and can't help.  I've experienced both sides of that coin.  I've worked in horrific places, and I've worked at one that I truly believe is positive, and life changing.  I could not have worked there for five years if that were not so.  It is against my nature.  You keep up your fight, Deb, and I'll keep up mine.  I maintain that WTTC made enormously positive changes in the lives of houndreds of children, and has been wrongfully shut down.  I can think of three other facilities that should've been shut down first.  I'll fight this one till it's over, but I'm through talking about it here.  I've heard what I needed to hear.  Thanks for everyone's time, and feedback.  I appreciate it.
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