Author Topic: Those damned seminars, again...  (Read 8102 times)

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Offline Nihilanthic

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Those damned seminars, again...
« on: October 25, 2004, 12:13:00 PM »
Ok, so my speech therapist (and more importantly her boss...) seems to think the thing with the seminars is people have differnet perspectives of the same thing.

The reason this came up is part of the whole theory of mind thing - understanding how they feel and think. I'm very able to do that. I can convincingly argue for Bush or Kerry, or for or against stemcells, etc... but the thing is, its not just a matter of opinion when you could have been coerced or brainwashed.

The two of them seem to think brainwashing isn't possible and/or not attempted.

Well, okay, so the one that the paycheck-giver and her daughter went to was only a seminar where they push your buttons, but stop and show you how you acted, instead of push your buttons to brainwash or interrogate in a less controlled manner. In THAT instance yeah if they screw up you might come out hurt or offended or abused...

How do I rebute that with the testimony I've gotten myself that it was used to break them down, and that the CIA says those methods CAN BE and HAVE BEEN, used for brainwashing? What the boss said, "What you describe seems like a program gone wrong" is the only thing I could really think of. But when it comes down to your perspective of the experience, and a PSYCHOLOGIST and other mental health experts have said it can be brainwashing and it is psychological abuse... is it just another perspective of the same thing?

And if it does give such mixed reactions from this 'therapy' is it really the best thing to be doing? I've heard of a BDSM scene to re-enact a rape as therapy, but I don't see my therapist dressing like a schoolkid and teasing me, or busting out some cuffs and a whip, now do I?

Obviously not, a lot of people would object to it and wouldn't get anything except a actual rape out of it. Argh... why do I keep seeing parallels between BDSM and this whole damn industry?

Anyway, hopefully I'll get them to drop the whole program shit and just focus on ME, because I don't need to deal with her need to be right about this wonderful experience.

I can't freaking just accept her point of view like any other kind of conversation if I think she could have been misinformed (as many parents have been) or brainwashed (as many parents and children have been) now can I? Its not politics or bench-racing cars or superman vs batman, its "they might have had their mind made for them or been lied to" :|

...it is worth discussing radical changes, not in the expectation that they will be adopted promptly but for two other reasons. One is to construct an ideal goal, so that incremental changes can be judged by whether they move the institutional structure toward or away from that ideal. The other reason is very different. It is so that if a crisis requiring or facilitating radical change does arise, alternatives will be available that have been carefully developed and fully explored."

http://laissezfairebooks.com/index.cfm?eid=103&aid=10247' target='_new'>Milton Friedman

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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

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Offline Deborah

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2004, 01:15:00 PM »
Yeh, they were trained in the same 'school of thought'.

*** Argh... why do I keep seeing parallels between BDSM and this whole damn industry?

Because, in case you haven't noticed (no sarcasm intended) we live in a culture that is basically very violent. There are exceptions, but this culture as a whole, still believes and sets social policy based on the thinking that the way to change anything they define as 'anti-social' behavior is through punishment. More recently they like to think it is disordered brain chemistry for which drugs are the cure. Might throw in a little punishment for good measure, if the 'crime' calls for it. This same belief is demonstrated throughout most religious text, inspite of Jesus' comments to the contrary. I guess humans have slightly progressed- its rare to hear of a parent 'slaying' a defiant child.

But, although they may not physically kill them, modern parents are very successful in killing their kids spirit, killing their hope, killing their enthusiasm for life. It's a sad state of affairs.

As for the workshops, here's my take on it, and I've attended my share over the years. Some good, some pathetic.

There is benefit in revisiting past traumas and checking out what beliefs one might have adopted from those experiences- beliefs that are controlling one's thoughts and actions- usually in an undesirable way (undesirable to the person). If one is physically abused as a child, it stands to reason that they might adopt the belief that they are unworthy and that physical abuse is 'normal' and 'acceptable'. That is how they were conditioned (brainwashed, if you will). This person would be much more likely to accept domestic violence and would not view it as abuse, even though it hurt and they disliked it. On some level they feel they 'deserve' it.

When one revisits those past traumas there can be some expression of emotions like crying, shaking, raging, etc. That is good therapy. It allows one to voice their displeasure and resentment about the way they were treated, which was suppressed when the actual trauma ocurred. Then they can move toward contradicting the erroneous messages they adopted.

Now, while that is good therapy in a one-on-one situation; many have tried to re-create that in a group scenerio. It's just not the same, and never will be.

Based on my experience, there is very little actual 'therapy' happening in these large group encounters. There is alot of acting, competition for the best performance, vying for the leaders attention, dependence on the group high, etc. etc.

Group encounters are like a holy-rolling church service. People get together, the 'spirit' starts moving through them and its contageous- wailing and singing the praises. They can feel this high for a few hours or few days after they leave the service, but nothing fundamentally has changed for them.

And... when this type of therapy is 'forced' you end up with people contriving a release. Not therapy. You can not 'act' an emotional release and benefit from it. Emoting on demand is not therapy. It's only therapy when it happens spontaneously in the course of reviewing past traumas. That is the key issue for why these group encounters do not work, imho.

That's how I see the group encounters. No real therapy takes place, just a feel-good high, which makes them more suggestable to the directions given by leader.

I have seen some pretty sick puppies in the position of leader, who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. But they always have charisma and the ability to 'get the spirit moving'. It's like a pep rally. People keep going back, as with religion, for the high.

All the while, no real change has ocurred. They are still controlled by useless beliefs, they still have difficulty in intimate relationships, they still feel no connection to their kids, they still believe that punishment and torture is 'good therapy' for the 'socially disordered'.

Ever been to a southern baptist revival. If you haven't, look one up and you'll see the same dynamics functioning. People signing and praising to the roof, testifying. And at the end, the preacher will be calling the sinners to come forward and repent. S/he wants them back every Sunday so s/he can shape their thoughts about right/wrong, good/evil, etc. etc. S/he also wants their 10% of the persons income in the plate every week. And s/he will keep them coming back with the 'fear of god'.  This group dynamic is very profitable for churches and workshop leaders.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2004, 01:43:00 PM »
From what I've read, it seems like many people don't "believe" in brainwashing until they encounter it themselves. I don't think there's anything you can do to convince these people. You can print out some of the information available on the net-- the CIA report, etc. And if, after reading all this, they still don't believe it can and does happen, just leave it alone. Nothing you can do.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2004, 03:18:00 PM »
Nihilantic - for someone who wants to understand the process of personal growth seminars, your
personal view will never be resolved until you go to one.  Fear of what you don't know is getting exactly what you are doing right now, wondering, questioning and damning.

You can always leave -  Please don't make money the excuse.  I can't think of even one good reason why you don't go instead of askng for validation of your view on this board.  

If you want to get your feet wet, go see the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know?"  It's not really about seminars, but goes deeper into opening some of those doors you've closed.

I wouldn't take any advice from Deborah either, she hasn't been to one.
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Offline Anonymous

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2004, 03:22:00 PM »
I don't think the lady (the boss speech person) is trying to be right.  She is correct in that every person will come away with something different.  No person's view or experience will be the same.  It's not about her being right, it about letting you know there are many different perspectives and hers is just one.
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Offline Deborah

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2004, 04:27:00 PM »
Devout TMers/Quantum Physicists damn sure wouldn't condone the abuse characteristic to ALL programs- that have been spelled out over and over on this forum. And I feel certain they wouldn't like you making any kind of association between them and 'the industry'. What point are you trying to make by linking the two?

If anyone of these quantum physicists did condone the idustry, rest assured that it would be because they were ill informed of the realities.

Nope, these folks would say 'teach these kids how to meditate'. That's their solution to the world's problems.

And given what goes on in the programs, it would be a better option. But, will not right all the wrongs in their family units.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline BuzzKill

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2004, 05:48:00 PM »
Not believing in Brain washing is like not believing in cows. Its not some make believe thing. It is real, and it is predictable in its effects.
You can use various terms to name it, but it is the same thing and just as real weather you call it brain washing, mind control, thought reform or Behavior modification.
It is well (but not completely) understood; and thoroughly studied by some of the best minds to ever wrangle with the human mind and how it functions.
I have several books on the subject and am often struck by the obvious and clear similarities to the wwasp programs and the "dammed seminars".  Get a copy of "The manipulated mind". Amazon has it.

[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2004-10-25 14:50 ]
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Offline Nihilanthic

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2004, 06:04:00 AM »
First, two points:

1. I am flat broke. Sorry. Sponsor me or drop it. And if I did have a few thousand lying around I'd much rather go get a nice car instead of my $400 beater that chews up rod-bearings like tic-tacs. Do you like dropping an oil pan and sticking your hand in your engine's naughty places? Its terribly inconvenient, and I don't have a garage.

2. The indication I got from all of the testimonies about the seminars (versus the secrecy that abounds!) was that they try to get you to get mad, or sad. They push your buttons. I know my psychological state and what baggage I have and I do not need to nor want to be made vulnerable in a group experience. If an actual therapist thought it would be beneficial and is necessary sure I'll play the crying game with someone I trust, not a bunch of people out to make a buck. And yes, being made vulnerable and having emotional and psychological attacks can make it easier to influence someone. And I do know how I'd take it, as torture. I'd walk out and I might take a few people's teeth with me. I don't need a experiential seminar to let me know what gets me worked up. And I know I'm not the healthiest person in the world inside - I know what my issues are.

I'm involved in this issue because of my shitty childhood and I'd rather not let it be perpetuated anymore. I don't need to rage or scream or cry or bang on a chair or have a breakdown with a bunch of strangers, get humiliated, then get the high from the experience. I can masturbate with my hand for free, I don't need to do it psychologically and spend money I do not have! Besides, when I initially found out about this sorry 'teen help industry' I had more than enough breakdowns.

And yes, if its just a subjective opinion on an experience, everyone will have a different perception of it. Is this song good or bad? Does that car look nice or is it hokey? Which would win in a race? What cup size is Britney Spears right now? Thats a matter of opinion.

When there is quite a lot of flak out there about misinformation and coersion to the point of brainwashing in seminars, then I can't just follow the rule of opinion, if they were unduly influenced by it. Extreme distress and screwing with your mind tends to make you unable to just have an opinion (educated or not) about something. If it was just a matter of opinion I'd accept it as such.

I'd like some experts with proper training and constitution to abuse (incase there is any) to sit in some of these seminars, or just get peephole cameras and hidden microphones to get his objectively evaulated by professionals. That would help to resolve all of this.

BTW, applying quantum physics to the macroscopic world is freaking ridiculous. Go take those water crystals and "What the bleep" and throw it in the trash with all the other junk science. Funny how you'd bring up that damned movie when I've seen it connected to the "quantum coaching" and resource realizations. Ugh. What next, Orgone energy collectors and cold fusion powered Hondas?



To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them...
-- Richard Henry Lee, 1787

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline chi3

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2005, 08:17:00 AM »
i know this is an old topic, and that i have given my opinion on many different threads. i apologise if anyone thinks i am being too opinionated. O.k., here's my take on the seminars, and yes, i have been, very recently. they do their best to make you feel like you are a naughty 10 yr. old. they get people very worked up emotionally and then try to "heal" them by telling them they have the tools to fix themselves. the major problem with these seminars is this: no one is screened to see if they can handle this type of psycological roller coaster. 2nd., the facilitator and staff are not licensed in any way to handle anyone having a severe psycological breakdown. nor are they licensed to open up your head and tinker in there. i think it is absolutely negligible. i think everyone should sue if they have troubles because of it.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2005, 08:30:00 AM »
I have one word, Paranoid!!
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Offline Perrigaud

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2005, 08:31:00 AM »
Don't worry about being too opinionated. We all are. Especially Niles. :wink: That's what these boards are here for.
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Offline chi3

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« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2005, 08:42:00 AM »
Dear Anon,

if you are referring to me as being paranoid, then that is totally untrue. i was in no way affected by the seminars. except for inconvenienced.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2005, 09:55:00 AM »
Not you chi, the ones on this board. Not you at all.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2005, 04:48:00 PM »
Ok, 'paranoid'....

Um, I'm going by the information presented to me by the people who wrote up about the seminars, people like chi who went there and told us how they work, and by past 'students' who said they were bad.

Thats not paranoia thats using the information given to you.

Paranoia would be for no reason at all. We have several.

Perrigaud - yeah, I'm opinionated, because there is so little in the way of FACTS coming out of those damn places. Maybe that should be fixed?

Every man thinks God is on his side. The rich and powerful know he is.
--Jean Anouilh, French dramatist and playwright

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Antigen

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2005, 06:03:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-14 05:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I have one word, Paranoid!!"


How come you didn't sign this one?

Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light and leading by contrast.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes