Author Topic: Portrait of Art  (Read 3037 times)

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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2004, 05:15:00 PM »
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And personally, I'm as offended by the Drug Free America types as I am by the stoners who argue that toking up is a sacrement (yeah I know it is for some and peyote is sacred too and all that but whatever)...but let's just admit that not all mind altering experiences are done to improve self or society but for the fun of getting fucked up...or to self-medicate.
 "



Smoking pot as a sacrament? I reject that outright.

I think of pot smokers very similar as alcohol users or tranqualizer poppers. Most of them are self medicating or recreating.  I find no personal offense in it. I don't think they should be arrested nor do I care to join them. The drug war itself is another subject I have very strong feelings about.

Using any substance, whether it be pot or alchohol, has varying affects on different people. Pot is a big negative for me, and I choose not to.  My choice and I am happy with it. You wanna smoke, be my guest. I won't think less of you unless you do it in a destructive way.  same with alcohol, you wanna have a glass of wine, be my guest. You wanna polish off the bottle, get sloppy and make an ass out of yourself and your friends, no thanks.
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Offline cleveland

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« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2004, 10:33:00 AM »
One important point I want to make here is, that Art had the potential for abuse given the system that was set up at the Seed - and as far as I know, he didn't abuse it.

Outside of playing endless games of football and baseball (and making sure Art's team always won), what else was he gaining? I mean, he could have been taking advantage of women in the program, and there was no evidence of that at all.

Greg elsewhere here has posted regarding the financial aspect of the Seed, and perhaps there is some truth to that. I know that Seed graduates set up businesses, some with Art's assistance, but I don't know if he profited or not. As far as money raised by the Seed, I don't know. We were so frugal, everything was Spartan. Art lived a simple life as far as I could see.

Even though it seems that Sembler and others abused their power in Seed-type offshoots, I think Art was by and large honorable. I've never seen evidence to the contrary.

I don't think this excuses the flaws of the Seed at all to me, but I think speculation, character attacks and baseless acusations weaken an honest assessment of the positives and negatives of our personal experiences, and a thorough assessment of where this effort to help people came to be oppressive and unsustainable.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2004, 10:50:00 AM »
I think from hearing the posts of you guys that were in there for the final years that the seed was a much different place in the 80s than it was in its heyday in the early 70s.

But Cleveland, Art gained what he wanted which was to be hero worshipped. He couldn't get a large group to do it in the 70s so he increasingly brought his group smaller and smaller and made his world the same.

Maybe Art didn't have all the money I once thought he had, but tell me...what do you think that property was worth on SR84? What about the land he sold for a shopping center? What about his "senior holding" deals he has? What is in their one wonders?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2004, 10:53:00 AM »
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One of the negative results is evident in some of the long termers that post here. They have found themselves in their forties or fifties, not well socialized to the real world, no children, no sex life to speak of and somewhat confused about their experience trying to make sense out of what happened.



hi greg do u think thisis why some did not marry for years
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2004, 11:50:00 AM »
maybe that question is better directed at these people here. Maybe they can answer better since they were there and experienced it firsthand. I do know that if you were "IN" at the seed, your potential marrying mates were limited to other seedlings and then the dates had to be approved by Art...and for some damn strange reason, none of these seedlings had kids.  Someone answer why please.  Was Art Opposed to Kids? What was the deal?

Are you the anon that wishes to speak to me via phone? If so, please Message me now so I can call you because I am going out of country thursday for 4 days.

Thanks.  Looking forward to speaking to you.

[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-10-25 08:52 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2004, 02:59:00 PM »
I will try to answer your question Anon.

  I have been asking this question to myself for a while and a good while this really frustrated me.
 I believe the origin of this problem if you can call it a problem can be traced back to my parent?s relationship. My father was an alcoholic and had very volatile relationship with my mother who on occasions would spill over to their kids. I don't believe my father was a bad person but a person who was very frustrated with many aspects of his life which resulted in his drinking.? The apple does not fall far from the tree" so to speak, and I can remember at a young age  (pre Seed) not wanting to be that way. I can remember not wanting to hurt anyone especially a women because I remembered my mother?s pain with this whole ordeal.
 
 At the Seed we were taught not to make excuses for ourselves and to develop a sense of independence. Something I think I took to an excessive extreme and need to pull myself back and rethink this through and find a happy medium.

 Can this be a direct result of the Seed? Maybe, but I remember this problem was around before the Seed and persist after I left the Seed. The Seed did touch on this subject and at least made me aware of myself and my inability to be intimate and the Seed did everything within their power to try to brake down these barriers that I had. The fact that I'm not married does not mean that I did not date after I left the Seed but it seems that all my relationships fell apart. Some were my fault other times it was the other person?s fault. One thing I do think of is trying to construct rather than destruct and I take a persons feelings and life to be a very important thing so, when I do date someone I take much more seriously than I guess the average person does. I always found it very strange how a person can be so in love with someone, break up with that person and a couple months later are just as in love with someone else. I have never been able to be that way.

 So, going back to your original questions is this the fault of the Seed? I would say no due to the fact that I take responsibility for my actions and will only throw the blame on myself. Remember most people that did go through the Seed did get married and probably share the same ratio of divorces and successful marriages as the rest of the population. (Only a guess on my part). The answer to this question might be as simple that I just haven?t met the right person. Remember marriage is not for everyone as society has brainwashed us to believe with all the bullshit Hollywood love stories. (I?VE always been a sucker for a good love story).
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2004, 03:11:00 PM »
Thanks for the answer. However, you must admit that your dating all occured after leaving the seed. Maybe your inability to keep relationships outside the seed is a result of being in an exclusive group so long and not left over from your childhood? This is possible. You see, I struggled for about 7 years after leaving the seed and even then after I got married but eventually learned the right way to deal with people.

Sure the average person that went thru the seed probably has been married and had kids. I have.

In this context anon We are specifically talking about you chosen ones...the Homo Superior...the "cream of the crop". You guys that stayed around for years and years, and we are talking about your relationships while there perhaps 5, 10 , 15 or 20 years later but still in the seed.

It seems that almost to a person the following is true. Keep in mind this is while at the seed, not after leaving. Seeing as many were there for 20 or thirty years, it is your entire adult life.

You only dated with Art's permission and then only seedlings.

If you married, it was only with Art's blessing.

None of you had kids.

If you found a mate outside the seed, you were no longer one of the inner circle types however you may have been able to maintain friendships within the seed. YOu were no longer "there".

Most of those that stayed for years and years that didn't marry another seedling  are still single (but not all).

Now, I am sure there are individual exceptions, but Am I wrong?  If so, someone straighten me out. IF I am right, someone tell me why. This really is a phenomena that is very interesting.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2004, 03:23:00 PM »
DAMM Gregg that was a quick post!!!! LOL.

 I can only speak for myself on that last post. Remember I was not considered a long timer by the Seed standards of the 80's and 90's.
 Some people did get married at the Seed to other Seed people for the most part are still married to each other. I never delt with the actual dating procedure?s for the Seed so I will have to plead ignorant to this topic, it would just be speculation on my part.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2004, 05:21:00 PM »
To ask someone out or be asked out was such a mission. You had to be there for a long time
That you were responsible which meant if Staff liked you> The only place in the world that you had to ask for permission from Staff which meant you had to admit that you had your eyes on someone which also meant that you might have been accused of having your head in the gutter or maybe you should be thinking of more important things other than dating.> Just to get to that point meant you had to go thru all that anxiety and wait and see how staff will react to this. Then worry about being rejected by the person who was probably thinking about the same anxieties you were going thru if they were asked out. Then of course was the proper way of acting while you were on the actual date assuming that you even got that far. It was far easier to just suppress your feelings and pretend that none of this bothered you.
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Offline Somejoker

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« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2004, 06:19:00 PM »
Unbelievable.

Am I to understand you may have graduated the seed 8 years past but if you wanted to remain one of the "cream of the crop" you had to ask staff for permission to date,and it better be a seedling, and there was a good chance they would say no?

WOW.

[ This Message was edited by: Somejoker on 2004-10-25 15:19 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2004, 09:42:00 AM »
TRUE
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Offline cleveland

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« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2004, 10:43:00 AM »
Yes, I will testify to that from personal experience. I had long had 'feelings' for someone who also happened to be a staff member. In my dreams I would be made a staff member too and she would love me of course and we would live happily ever after - or something like that, it was unclear because I only knew of three married couples at this time - I had been 'straight' for about six years. I wasn't a member of the inner circle or anything like that but I thought staff respected me. Anyway, months of self-torture over this and I finally worked up the nerve to go to staff with it. I remember sitting in a rap session obsessing on it and I finally got the attention of a staff member at the side of the group. AS if in a dream I went to the back office with the staff member and when he said, what's wrong? I blurted out that I had strong feeling for someone and thought maybe I'd like to ask her on a date or something like that. He said, I'll get right backt to you, go back to the group. I sat there on pins and needles. Finally he calls me back and says, you know, so-and-so loves everyone, maybe you just need to focus on yourself. All the time he's looking at me like I'm crazy. I was crushed.

A year later I got an anniversary card signed by all the girls. The one I had feelings for just wrote, 'seven years is a long time'. That was it. I was like, what am I doing here? I left soon after.

That's my sad story. Fortunately for me, I am married now and have a child on the way. Relationships are difficult for anyone but add needing to tell your potential partner that you spent seven celebate years sitting on a chair in a warehouse in Broward County!
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2004, 11:20:00 AM »
That is just such an unreal story, the amount of control you long timers had exerted on even your emotional feelings for others.

Anyone else have a story about "guy/chick relationships" during the seed?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2004, 11:52:00 AM »
don't understand. what would happen at seed if u just cose to ask soeone out...maybe some did not like u for that, but i'm sure they would've eventually accepted.. what about decisions on careers. . .you could be whatever u wanted, right? or seeing family and going out with them. . .I mean graduates did not have toask permission to vist family or go on vacation, right? What convinced graduates on the logic of having to ask strannge adults for their advice, don't get it?
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Offline Somejoker

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« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2004, 12:51:00 PM »
Anon, where you in the Seed? If so, when and where?

Thank you.  BTW, you still in touch with anyone from the seed down In Ft Lauderdale?

Is that where you live now?
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