Author Topic: The quite program kids  (Read 2427 times)

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Offline BuzzKill

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The quite program kids
« on: October 18, 2004, 01:09:00 PM »
This subject is sometime mentioned; but I feel it needs stressing; these kids do not normally come home talking about the abuse. They don't dare in the phone calls; and by the time you meet them they just don't.
For example,
My son was forced to stay on his knees, face to the wall, hands behind his back, for hours at a time; for days at a time.
He was "restrained" for requesting the use of the restroom.
He wasn't allowed to talk to anyone. Normal conversation was forbidden.
He wasn't allowed to look out a window; or up; or to the right; or to the left.
He frequently witnessed others being brutally restrained.
He frequently was aware of others being beat up.

*But I didn't learn about any of this until months after he was out.*

He didn't meet me at the air port talking about these things. His overall conversation was positive.
He never mentioned most of it.

He Had told me he was hungry - all the time - that all he could think of was food. ( He lost nearly 25 pounds, in four months.)
He had told me the "school" was a joke.
He had mentioned sleeping on the floor.
He had complained about not being able to talk.
(I thought he meant during school - he couldn't mean what he seemd to be saying.)  
He had tried to tell me about OP, but I never got that letter.

I was assured this was all his attempt to manipulate me into bringing him home. I fell for this too - for awhile.
I notice how the BBS parents, from all the schools, had kids saying these same things. Hummmm. Odd. Might be something to this.

But I never dreamed what the truth was. Had no clue. Not until he'd been out many months, and as a result of an odd turn of events, I began asking very pointed questions. When he began talking about these things, I was blown away. Shocked, is not to strong a word. Horrified, too.  When I asked why he hadn't told me, he said he thought I knew. He was told by the staff that I had signed a document absolving them of liability if they broke a bone.  So, he thought I knew.
Also, he had been rebuffed by me when reporting some of the above - because I had been convinced he and all the kids were "manipulating". I am sure, he simply felt I would not believe him, and why start trouble? I have since learned this is Common.
The kids don't meet with their parents at pc1 or pc2 and tell them these things. They don't come home after graduation and talk about it. And often times, just asking the general question, where you abused, will get a No; when by anyone's standards, the answer would be Yes, if the details were known. I personally believe this is because they have come to view what happened as "needed and deserved" and they don't recognize it as abuse; because of the Programming.

So, please don't lull yourself to sleep, program parent, simply b/c your program kid has yet to confide in you. The sad truth is, they may never do so; and with good reason.[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2004-10-18 10:10 ]
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Offline Nihilanthic

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The quite program kids
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2004, 06:12:00 PM »
Successfullly brainwashed kids think its not abuse and parents think it never happened, and people like brown would say you're just lying or its just one facility.

*Sigh* the entire mode of operation, breaking child/parent trust, saying the child will lie, and cutting off the child to ENABLE (yay buzzwords!) the staff to abuse the kids has to be stopped. *Sigh* and we've all been over how transparency would fix this.

So, how do you get a programmie to open up? How do you get a kid to trust ANYONE to talk about this?

A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother.

--Anonymous

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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Deborah

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The quite program kids
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2004, 06:28:00 PM »
Reality might not set in until program parents go to visit their grandchildren and find them in dog crates or locked closets, witness their son/daughter twist their grandchilds arm behind their back or beat them or force them to lie face down on the floor for hours on end, deny them food, punish them for expressing themselves, etc, etc; because they were taught that this is normal and an acceptable way to treat kids in order to gain compliance.

The industry will change when consumers (parents) demand it, if at all. And then they'll just be more covert. Without the torture and isolation they have no way to make the kid even appear to have changed.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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The quite program kids
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2004, 06:46:00 PM »
Why not 'change' with real help and treatment?

How did 'tough love' actually usurp real love and affection?

Why not accept people need to just grow up and you can't do anything about it and people do stupid stuff as kids no matter what because thats how you learn?

One has to multiply thoughts to the point where there aren't enough
policemen to control them



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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The quite program kids
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2004, 02:01:00 AM »
Quote
On 2004-10-18 15:46:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"Why not 'change' with real help and treatment?


Because change with real help and treatment takes a long time, sometimes months or years. It also takes effort and patience from both parents and children. The parents who send their children to programs don't want that. They don't want to be involved in their child's treatment (these people send their child off to be raised by other people-- they don't want to be invovled AT ALL), so why going for a treatment option that would require that? They don't want to wait months or years until something changes, they want change NOW, regardless of whether their child is ready for it or not...


Quote

How did 'tough love' actually usurp real love and affection?

 

Tough love is cheaper (requires less effort/time) and is easier than truly loving a person and truly helping them.

Quote

Why not accept people need to just grow up and you can't do anything about it and people do stupid stuff as kids no matter what because thats how you learn?



It's perfectly natural, and yet it scares them so much...
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Offline BuzzKill

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The quite program kids
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2004, 11:35:00 AM »
//Because change with real help and treatment takes a long time, sometimes months or years. //

This is a major program selling point. If your looking for drug re-hab, lets say, and you have insurance that will pay for a ten day stay in a rehab facility, and you know this is a waste of time; These private pay programs sell them selves as an alternative that works - but takes months - or maybe even years.

Now don't misunderstand - I am NOT advocating these programs - only explaining how this argument of yours is one they use to sell themselves.

//Tough love is cheaper (requires less effort/time) and is easier than truly loving a person and truly helping them.//

First, let me say, in my opinion, these programs have perverted the idea of tuff love. What it used to mean, was simply allowing the way ward teen to experience the consequences of his actions. Not to create false and excessively severe consequences - but just pay the natural price.
This is often far more difficult and emotionally stressful than to help them out of jam after jam.

These programs seem to have figured out how to sell themselves as the ultimate natural consequence. The chant is: "they put themselves there."  "What do you care if he is hungry/cold/hot/ afraid? He got himself there."
It is, of corse, excessively severe - but no parent going into this, understands that. If the truth ever does begin to seep in, the programming has already got them trained to think it acceptable and even "a loving" thing to do.
And it is Very expensive. Far more so than letting the kid go their own way.


//Why not accept people need to just grow up and you can't do anything about it and people do stupid stuff as kids no matter what because thats how you learn?
                  ****
It's perfectly natural, and yet it scares them so much... //

I think the problem we have now is the "stupid stuff" teens do are more dangerous and worrisome and in far greater numbers than in days gone by.
The consequences of their actions perceived as being to great. These programs seen as the only viable way to save hem from themselves so they will have a chance to grow up.

I know there are parents who just want to be free of the responsibility of parenting a teen, and so are really just warehousing them in these places; But, most are really doing what they feel they must to salvage any hope of life and liberty for their kids whom they do love very much.
Its true as they pass threw their own program, they become increasingly detached and cold towards their child - but that is the programming at work on them. This is not their natural state.
And by the way - the bit about the parents not wanting to be involved in their child's treatment. . .
This is yet another Program selling point.
They ARE involved. They have these nifty seminars, and you, the parent, will work on your problem as well, for the sake of healing the Family.
Hog wash - but this is yet another major program selling point. [ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2004-10-19 08:37 ][ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2004-10-19 08:39 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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The quite program kids
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2004, 11:41:00 AM »
Anon,

I take offense to your lack of expertise to the generalization of what and why parents have entrusted their children to outside"qualified support. "

Your judgement call in my opinion is way off base.
You make sound so simple. Its not!

Save it for someone who hasnt been there, done it and realized what a huge mistake that was made.

Its easy to put yourself upon a self rightous pedestal.

Its very difficult to help a struggling teen whom the parents are worried sick about.

Please try to come from a more generous heart and offer help not condemnation.If you have it in you that is.

 .
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Offline Anonymous

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The quite program kids
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2004, 12:11:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-10-19 08:41:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Anon,



I take offense to your lack of expertise to the generalization of what and why parents have entrusted their children to outside"qualified support. "



Your judgement call in my opinion is way off base.

You make sound so simple. Its not!



Save it for someone who hasnt been there, done it and realized what a huge mistake that was made.



Its easy to put yourself upon a self rightous pedestal.



Its very difficult to help a struggling teen whom the parents are worried sick about.



Please try to come from a more generous heart and offer help not condemnation.If you have it in you that is.



 .







"


A generous heart would allow their child to mature and accept the natural consequences for their actions.

Oh and please show me one of these programs that treats the children with this "generous heart" that you want to be treated with.

Why is it you deserve better treatment than your own teenager?
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Offline BuzzKill

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The quite program kids
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2004, 12:32:00 PM »
//Please try to come from a more generous heart and offer help not condemnation.If you have it in you that is. //

I suspect this is Scary, and if so, there is no point in trying to reason with her. Generous heart? It is not in her. Not for anyone.

Funny how she so loves to condemn the parents; but  so happily embraced the program. Everyone exploited her, except the program, which paid her. Somehow, she fails to see the exploitation in that.
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Offline Antigen

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The quite program kids
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2004, 01:33:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-10-18 10:09:00, BuzzKill wrote:

 I personally believe this is because they have come to view what happened as "needed and deserved" and they don't recognize it as abuse; because of the Programming.


That was very much true in my case. That's one of the reasons for all the controls on communication. No newcomers talking to newcomers, no outside communications "till you earn it", no complaints or objections to anything and no showing sympathy or affection to other kids who are unhappy or being punished in some way, etc., etc.

It's not only about keeping the outside world from finding out the facts and details about what goes on inside. It's also, probably moreso, about forcing the inductee to redefine what they're experiencing. Taken seperately, any of those rules seem almost reasonable and complaining about them seems petty. But taken together, they create an environment where all of the social cues about what's going on are controled. After a surprisingly short while, it seems perfectly normal and acceptable to pin a kid to the ground (or to get pinned to the ground) for something as petty as refusing to say whatever they want you to say or for breaking one of the myriad petty rules.

When I got out of Straight, I told people and I believed that I had not wittnessed a lot of real abuse; that there were isolated incidents, but it was not the norm. That was after I had been four-pointed to the floor for several hours, at one point having my nose and mouth covered to induce panic, for refusing to apologize to Group for having run away.

He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion.
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_12s4.html' target='_new'> James Burgh 1774

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Offline Antigen

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The quite program kids
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2004, 02:44:00 PM »
Buzz, I think you're partially right about where toughlove came from. But take into consideration the way time distorts our memories. We all tend to forget how things were decades ago. In the `50's, teenagers were out hot-rodding, drag racing and, most often, w/ alcohol involved. The law was less strict wrt teen drinking and drunk driving (especially if the kid in question was a football player or something). But the laws of physics haven't changed at all.

Today, we're fed a steady diet of utter bullshit about kids ta'day. The turth, that teen violence, pregnancy and illiteracy have steadily declined for years, is just not very exciting or sensational. We worry too damned much and have too little faith in our kids to learn how to manage their own lives while they still have the safety net of minority. We accept things like the dreaded "law enforcement involvement" as evidence of their outrageous behavior w/o taking into consideration that the same behavior that used to get a kid a ride home to dad and a good lecture and chores now lands the kid up in court w/ a record and under nearly unbearable scrutiny.

As to the specific origin of TOUGHLOVE®, here's some.

"Credit for the first grass-roots parent activity is generally given to Marsha Manatt, a mother from Atlanta, Georgia, who began to suspect that marijuana was being used at her daughter&rsquos birthday party."
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/bulletin/ ... ge005.html

"One of the seminal events in the creation of the modern American anti-drug movement was a backyard barbecue held in Atlanta, Georgia, during August of 1976. In the aftermath of their daughter's birthday party, Ron and Marsha Manatt combed through the wet grass in their pajamas, at one in the morning, with flashlights, finding dozens of marijuana roaches, rolling paper packets, and empty bottles of Mad Dog 20/20 fortified wine discarded by their twelve- and thirteen-year-old guests. Alarmed by these discoveries, the Manatts gathered local parents in their living room and formed what would soon be known as the Nosy Parents Association, a group dedicated to preventing teenage drug use. Marsha Manatt wrote to Robert Dupont, the head of the National Institute on Drug Abuse; he helped arrange her introduction to Thomas Gleaton, a professor of health education at Georgia State University. There soon arose the Parents' Resource Institute for Drug Education and the National Federation of Parents for Drug-Free Youth, two organizations backed by the top officials at NIDA and the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) which would exert tremendous influence on the nation's drug policies. Thousands of other parents' groups soon formed nationwide, and Ross Perot helped launch the Texans' War on Drugs."

http://www.indiesent.com/ganjab/reeferma/crimdec.html

Note that Bobby DuPont, then head of NIDA, had already granted millions of dollars to Art Barker's "The Seed" program, served as a professional wittness on behalf of it's follow-on program, Straight, Inc. in later years and now sits, along w/ H. Wayne Huizenga and Betty Sembler on the BOA of Psychemedic; America's #1 hair drug testing corporation.)

It is abaolutely preposterous to characterize TOUGHLOVE® as ever having been a grass-roots organization. It has always been a funded project of NIDA, DEA and ONDCP.
 

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Offline BuzzKill

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The quite program kids
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2004, 04:50:00 PM »
You don't need to go as far back as the fifties for this tolerance you speak of. Things were pretty tolerant during the seventies as well.
My friends and I have sat around talking about how much we got away with, way back when, that will get a kid booted from school and sent to the JD classes now. And I don't mean anything violent or dangerous.
I am very aware of this and thats a part of what I mean when I talk about increased consequences for today's kids.
Another part has to do with the very greatly increased consequences of sexually transmitted viruses.
And also, it does seem to me the drugs are more dangerous.
Anyway, for whatever reason, parents do have more to worry about than they once did - assuming they give a rap.
Speaking for myself, I know I was worried sick and so was the whole family. I know I wanted to help in some meaningful way and I thought I had found one. I was wrong. I will even go so far as to admit you might be right, in that this approach never really 'helps' - but I am still to close to the problem and the worry to say a parent ought to do nothing.
I hope laws will be enforced - as you point out - it is against existing laws to torture people. I hope federal laws with real bite will be past - as the states to often lack the will to enforce laws against money machines.
I think the way we educate needs a look at. Its fine for all the nice round little pegs - but for the odd peg - the sensitive or creative or energetic kid - it fails utterly.
And zero tolerance is a disaster.
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Offline Antigen

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The quite program kids
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2004, 06:29:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-10-19 13:50:00, BuzzKill wrote:

... but I am still to close to the problem and the worry to say a parent ought to do nothing.
...and...

Quote
I think the way we educate needs a look at. Its fine for all the nice round little pegs - but for the odd peg - the sensitive or creative or energetic kid - it fails utterly.
And zero tolerance is a disaster.


I have never advocated a parent doing nothing for their kid. And, trust me on this one, I know the angst of watching your teenaged kid go off the wall. I may well have have fallen for the troubled parent industry scam if I hadn't already lived it and fought my way out of it.

It's what you do that matters. I know what has gotten me through rough times. Even when my parents were just sure I was makeing the worst possible choices, those sage voices of adults who I respected still rang in my head and, eventually, won out. Of all the characters on the stage of my childhood memories, those adults who's teaching still guides me are the ones who were rarely judgmental, often kind and understanding, fair, respectful and straightforward w/ us kids. The real adults were the ones who you really could go to with a problem, no matter how serious, and they wouldn't freak out and make it worse.

"My better angels". That's what I aspire to be as a mother. It's not always easy to judge whether you're getting it right or not. But we should always try.

That's how to educate our kids. I think the problem w/ the way we're doing it these days is that we're not the ones doing it. We're moving toward nationally standardized mediocrity and away from the core values of independence, excellence and fair play that are central to our national identity.

It is the absolute right of the state to supervise the formation of public opinion.

--Joseph Goebbels



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Offline Antigen

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The quite program kids
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2004, 06:39:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-10-19 15:29:00, Antigen wrote:

It is the absolute right of the state to supervise the formation of public opinion.

--Joseph Goebbels


Thanks for the help, Dad!  :nworthy:

They know that it is human nature to take up causes whereby a man may oppress his neighbor, no matter how unjustly. ... Hence they have had no trouble in finding men who would preach the damnability and heresy of the new doctrine from the very pulpit.
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