CASA CLOSING

[Honda Rider]

I won?t even address your second link (#63699) because WWASP is not a ?Wilderness Program?.  In your first link you failed to make a correlation between the study?s therapeutic approaches and WWASP?s approach other than ?group therapy?.  WWASP embraces a multifaceted approach, including parental involvement, where group discussion and self-regulation aimed at accountability are ONE SMALL PART.

I?m not here to tell anybody that WWASP is an elixir for all teen problems.  But I also don?t have respect for individuals that state ?these schools don?t work? based on weak research, or worse yet, no research at all.  Not to spoil your 21-year old data, but I personally know over one hundred parents that believe in WWASP.  And that data is from 2004.

[BuzzKill]

How many of those hundred parents have had their "troubled teen" home for five years or more and are still saying its the answer?
Well, never mind the goofy parents - how many of the kids are saying so five years out?
There are Programmed parents who haven't spoken to their kid in years that sing the programs praises; and parents who's kids have killed them selves who still say the program saved them - So, don't bother me with their crap.

[Honda Rider]

BuzzKill, you love to tear apart WWASP?s approach without providing an alternate.  You also love to tear it apart with baseless arguments.  I have much more respect for the guy that attempted to prove his point with weak data.  Your approach is not uncommon for you swamp fever types.

Anyway, to answer your questions:
1)   Over 50
2)   I?ve only personally met a few, so it?s 5 out of 7.
3)   Parents that understand the WWASP program are given a great gift:  they don?t have to live their lives though their kids.  If a kid chooses not to follow the parent?s value system it?s the kid?s choice.  Why do you fault parents for that?  Unless you believe parents should enable their kids to the point of not having a life of their own.
4)   WWASP is not responsible for teens killing themselves.  If a teen killed themself at home are the parents to blame?  Should other kids within the same household be taken away if this happened?  Should a high school be closed down if a suicide occurs there?

Again, you have no facts to back up your bull.

[Anonymous]

Well, when your child gets out, I would like to hear yor views then, Honda.  You are a proponent for these type of programs now, but it is after your kids get out that you will really know what happened and how it affected your kids.  That being that you still talk to your kid after the programs over.  You say my data's old, but where's your data?  I mean real data with statistical evidence, not just case reports?  I think that you can't truly DIS on my data until you find some to back your side up.

Also, you have not attended any of these types of schools, as I have.  You really have no right to spew over our views if you yourself are not a survivor.

[Honda Rider]

As a parent, I have gone through the program.  It?s really opened my eyes to the baggage I carried into the family dynamic and the old patterns I had created.  I?m excited, scared, anxious, nervous for my teen to come home, as any caring parent would be.  I feel sad that things didn?t work out for you.  I never said WWASP?s approach was a guaranteed cure all.  You were the one making broad-brush statements that these schools don?t work.  My point was oftentimes they do work.

I find it interesting that you can?t accept my firsthand case reports as data that has no statistical relevance.  I?m sure given a couple of hours, a cup of coffee, and a few google searches I could find papers, written by PhDs no doubt, that support my claims.  Because, as you?ve graphically demonstrated, there?s studies out there that can prove anything.

[Anonymous]

Saying you went through the program doesn't exactly help your position, when one of the accusations against the program is that it practices brainwashing. Some independant, trained, 3rd party review might though.

The only stuff I've read about how the seminars actually work is that they use emotional breakdowns and psychological stress as their 'group therapy' which is very much a very easy way to make you believe whatever they want you to.

Intimidation, ridicule and just basically humiliation and a breakdown treats nothing.

We're also fully aware that the program can do no wrong and its not okay to say it does, and your communication with your child was cut off or you were told to not believe them.

Go 'coach' other people. This is nothing new.

[Aqua Fortis]

Honda Rider says... "I find it interesting that you can?t accept my firsthand case reports as data that has no statistical relevance. I?m sure given a couple of hours, a cup of coffee, and a few google searches I could find papers, written by PhDs no doubt, that support my claims. Because, as you?ve graphically demonstrated, there?s studies out there that can prove anything."

 :skull:

[Anonymous]

Honda wrote:
I?M NOT DIRECTLY ASSOCIATED WITH WWASP or Premier but I do have a child in a facility. I?m also a firm believer that these specialty boarding schools are a tremendous help to the parents of some troubled teens.

Then makes these comments:
I PERSONALLY WITNESSED the care and compassion afforded the kids that were transported to San Diego over that fateful weekend. WWASP did everything imaginable to protect the kids and make them as comfortable as possible.

Not to spoil your 21-year old data, BUT I PERSONALLY KNOW OVER ONE HUNDRED PARENTS THAT BELIEVE IN WWASP. And that data is from 2004.

In your first link you failed to make a correlation between the study?s therapeutic approaches and WWASP?s approach other than ?group therapy?. WWASP EMBRACES A MULTIFACETED APPROACH, INCLUDING PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT, where group discussion and self-regulation aimed at accountability are ONE SMALL PART.

A home contract establishes a set of values for the home and rules for parents and kids to follow. It is a simple tool for promoting accountability. WWASP DOES NOT DICTATE WHAT THE HOME CONTRACT LOOKS LIKE.

PARENTS THAT UNDERSTAND THE WWASP PROGRAM ARE GIVEN A GREAT GIFT: they don?t have to live their lives though their kids. If a kid chooses not to follow the parent?s value system it?s the kid?s choice.

AS A PARENT, I HAVE GONE THROUGH THE PROGRAM. It?s really opened my eyes to the baggage I carried into the family dynamic and the old patterns I had created. I?m excited, scared, anxious, nervous for my teen to come home, as any caring parent would be. I feel sad that things didn?t work out for you. I never said WWASP?s approach was a guaranteed cure all. You were the one making broad-brush statements that these schools don?t work. My point was oftentimes they do work.

I find it interesting that YOU CAN'T ACCEPT MY FIRSTHAND CASE REPORTS as data that has no statistical relevance.
***********

Honda,
If your child is in a different program, how is it that you are such an ?expert? on WWASP? Why would anyone give preference to your opinions about this program over the parents who are here sharing their direct experience?

I notice that you accuse others of making broad-brush statements about WWASP, while you have done the same thing, and don?t even have a child in one of their programs.
If your so knowledgeable and supportive of W, why is your child somewhere else? And how is it that you ?personally? witness what happened at CASA. And how did you come to know ?over one hundred parents? who believe in W?

Are you and Ed Con or Escort who happens to have a child in another program, but defend all programs because you have a vested interest?
You reek of Spam.

[Honda Rider]

Spam, I think not.  Who said my child was in a different program?  Just to clear things up.  I currently have a teen in a WWASP facility and he?s doing great.  He?s been there since November 2003.  You?re assumptions led you in a different direction based on your beliefs about WWASP.  That?s kind of prejudice of you, right.  I?ll have to get back to the issues addressed in the other posts sometime in the next couple of days.  I?ve got more productive things to do today.

Later guys?it?s been fun debating all of you.

[BuzzKill]

//BuzzKill, you love to tear apart WWASP?s approach without providing an alternate.//
WWASP needs tearing apart - if thats how you want to put it, in my opinion.  They ought to be sitting in prison, in my opinion, and I hope they will be before to much longer. I would be, if I had treated my kid the way they did, and this is a fact.

// You also love to tear it apart with baseless arguments.//
Everything I said to you is based on fact.  I know for a fact, because I was part of it and I know well how it all works.

// I have much more respect for the guy that attempted to prove his point with weak data. Your approach is not uncommon for you swamp fever types. //
I don't often bother with stats because I know others will; and do a better job of it than I could. I stick to my experience and my sons and what I have learned from talking to dozens of program kids and parents. I think thats a pretty good data source.

"Swap fever type"?
Really? Why not just call me a stupid cracker?
Or a Chattering Pig or a BMW?
This reaction of yours is part of the programming - the cultish need to devalue anyone who rocks the boat. "No need to consider this persons point of view; they are just a swamp fever type".  

Anyway, to answer your questions:
1) Over 50

Over 50 WHAT? Kids out over five years? I do a little doubt it.

2) I?ve only personally met a few, so it?s 5 out of 7.

Again, 5 out of 7 - do you mean 5 to 7 - and 5 to 7 what?

3) Parents that understand the WWASP program are given a great gift: they don?t have to live their lives though their kids.

Do you really think you needed to be programmed to learn this simple fact?

//If a kid chooses not to follow the parent?s value system it?s the kid?s choice.//
No one here is going to tell you otherwise. Thats the point.

// Why do you fault parents for that? //
I don't. But the program does.

//Unless you believe parents should enable their kids to the point of not having a life of their own. //
Of corse not; But, I DO fault parents who abandon their 18 year old in a strange city with no family or friends or money or education or job skills simply b/c they are good program parents. Its appalling and horrific and the one shinning example of how the program alienates parents and children from one another.

4) WWASP is not responsible for teens killing themselves.

If they accept a mentally ill kid into their program, then they are responsible for the outcome. Unless the parents lied and told WWASP the girl was of sound mind (which they admit in their own statement was not the case) then they had no business accepting her into their care. The Program is damaging for any kid; but for the "fragile" as they admit she was - it is Grossly inappropriate! They Are liable, in my opinion, and I hope the parents aren't so blinded by grief they can't see it.


//If a teen killed themself at home are the parents to blame? //
Not usually - but this does not mean never. In some cases they are responsible and in some cases have been tried and convicted for it.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/ ... 0507.shtml
Heres an example where I think both the parent and the program are responsible:
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... esp1.shtml


//Should other kids within the same household be taken away if this happened?//
See above.

 //Should a high school be closed down if a suicide occurs there? //
If it is an abusive and neglectful locked down facility, Yes.

//Again, you have no facts to back up your bull. //
As far as I am concerned, everything I say to you is based on facts.  http://isaccorp.org/documentsnz.html

[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2004-10-16 14:05 ][ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2004-10-16 14:36 ]

[Antigen]

Speaking of studies:

Pubdate: 16 October 2004
Source:  Dallas Morning News
Contact: http://www.dallasnews.com/
Webpage:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... 92a68.html
*****************************************************
Panel: 'Scare tactics' don't cut teen crime

Boot camps may raise violence, says report that backs counseling

08:36 PM CDT on Friday, October 15, 2004

Associated Press


WASHINGTON ? Boot camps and other "get tough" programs for adolescents do not prevent crime and may make the problem even worse, an expert panel concluded Friday.

Laws transferring juveniles into the adult court system lead these teens to commit more violence, and there is no proof they deter others from committing crime, the panel said.

More promising, it said, are programs that offer intensive counseling for families and young people at risk.

The 13-member panel of experts, convened by the National Institutes of Health, reviewed the available scientific evidence to look for consensus on causes of youth violence and ways to prevent it.

" 'Scare tactics' don't work," the panel concluded in its report, released Friday. "Programs that seek to prevent violence through fear and tough treatment do not work."

Youth violence has declined from its peak a decade ago, but violent crime rates are still high, the panel said.

Violence can be traced to a variety of possible factors: inconsistent or harsh parenting, poor peer relations, gang involvement, lack of connection to school and living in a violent neighborhood.

The trouble with boot camps, group detention centers and other "get tough" programs is they bring together young people who are inclined toward violence and who teach each other how to commit more crime, the panel said: "The more sophisticated [teens] instruct the more naive in precisely the behaviors that the intervener wishes to prevent."

It also rejected programs that "consist largely of adults lecturing," like DARE.

One barrier to implementing effective programs, the report said, is resistance from people operating ineffective programs who depend on them for their jobs.

"All the evaluations have shown they don't work," said the panel's chair, Dr. Robert L. Johnson of the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey. "Many communities are wasting a great deal of money on those types of programs."

The panel looked for programs tested using rigorous research methods and concluded that "the good news is that there are a number of intervention programs that have been shown" effective.

The report cited two: a therapy program where youth and their families attend 12 one-hour sessions over three months, and a community-based clinical treatment program that targeted violent and chronic offenders at risk of being removed from their families. This second program provided about 60 hours of counseling over about four months with therapists available at all hours.

One key, Dr. Johnson said, was letting counselors observe families and children together and offer suggestions for better parenting.

Both programs reduced arrest rates and out-of-home placements, with positive effects four years after treatment ended.

The report identified six other programs that seemed to work but that hadn't been studied as closely, including Big Brothers Big Sisters, a nurse-family partnership program and Project Towards No Drug Abuse.

The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest possible limits. ... and [when] the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.
-- St. George Tucker, Judge of the Virginia Supreme Court 1803

[Nihilanthic]

So, Honda, kid doing great...

Whats your current state of communication like with him? If he had any complaints with the program what would you do to handle it? Would you believe it? Did they tell you not to?

Have you seen him without having the program involved since you had in incarcerated in it? (Like, just you and your kid, not you and your kid with the programs rules and agenda) Were there any uncensored phonecalls if you haven't seen him in person? What about Mail?

What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of the child and the feeble mentality of the average adult.
-- Sigmund Freud

[Anonymous]

I still find it hard to believe that there are parents who will allow a WWASP program to raise their child for an entire year or more.  There have been so many reports of abuse - how can anyone in good conscience do this to a child?  WWASP should not be treating children with diagnosed mental illnesses.

[Honda Rider]

Wow, it looks like I missed a lot today.  Let?s take care of the easy things first?  

Yes, he?s doing great.  We talk to our son twice a month.  We?ve had two off-grounds visits with him.  If there were a report of abuse I would personally investigate it and personally take action based on the results.  He is in the counselor?s office when the phone calls take place.  His incoming or outgoing mail isn?t censored.

Antigen has provided an article for everybody to read but yet couldn?t write an intelligent point describing why it was applicable.  I guess my question is, what if the one hour per week family counseling and the 60 hours of teen counseling doesn?t work?  Oh my gosh, would a more restrictive inpatient program like WWASP be the next logical step.

BuzzKill, you?re not rocking my boat.  You?re completely lost.  Can you tie your own shoes?  You had four questions/comments that were addressed.  If you can?t connect the dots I won?t do it for you.

As a general comment?the decision to place him in WWASP was tough.  I visited the school, I talked to other parents and was presented with both the pros and the cons.  It was never described as having a 100% success rate.  I?m intelligent enough to know there aren?t any guarantees in life.  Before placing him in the facility, we tried the 10 hours per week of counseling, taking away privileges, restriction, daily monitoring of grades, and talking to him.  None of it worked.

The point you guys are missing is that teens react differently to therapeutic approaches.  For some teens the counselor thing works.  But for some it doesn?t.  You guys are deluded if you think that parents don?t use WWASP as a last resort.  Don?t throw this ?he?s just being a teen? garbage back at me because it won?t stick.

Oh, by the way, the cult and deprogramming cracks are downright hilarious!  And not a coherent point from any of you.  Come on, you guys can do better than that.

[Aqua Fortis]

Yes Honda Rider, actually you have missed quite a bit. You get 2 conversations a month with your kid. Why can't you talk to him every day? And, how long was it before you got to talk to him the first time after placement there? Kids that don't report problems advance, kids that attempt to report it get things like OP, 0 points, level one. There was a suicide in Spring Creek Lodge earlier this month. Did you know that even happened before coming to fornits? I bet his mail, if he ever sends any, goes to HQ in Utah before it comes to your house. If that isn't a cult behavior, what is? Oh, and did you sign that 0 tolerance sheet? :scared:


Aqua Fortis  :skull: