Who Writes the letters to home

[Anonymous]

Retraction:  I misremembered the law, I do not in fact know that Craig and ALA removing teens from the country and holding them outside the country is against the letter or spirit of the law.

I know it's reprehensible, but I do not know that it is actually illegal, and, since I haven't repeated this disclaimer in awhile, I Am Not a Lawyer.

Okay, some of this retraction is for disclaimer purposes, but most of it is because when I criticize people I try very hard for my criticisms to be well-founded and accurate.  When someone in another thread challenged me to check my memory on the law, and I did a web search, I found I had misremembered what I'd read.

What they're doing just isn't right, *but* that particular criticism of illegality was beyond the level of facts I can support, so I retract it.

Even people I don't like, whose behavior I vehemently disapprove of, deserve the criticisms I make of them to be fundamentally fair and for the support of those criticisms not to be overstated.

I misremembered, the overstatement was inadvertent, and I apologize.

I know this is going to look like legal CYA, but it has always been my habit in all fora to apologize and admit it when I'm wrong, regardless.

But again, the criticism of illegality in taking/keeping teens out of the country against their will was one I didn't have support for.  

Admitting that I misremembered is not and should not be taken as *any* kind of endorsement of the practice of involuntary placement of minors in residential facilities of any kind without both adequate independent oversight and review of the placement reasons, strict criteria limiting those reasons, strict state licensing requirements of the facility, and continuing strict oversight by competent state child welfare agencies.

I believe the present regulations governing the teen residential care industry for teens with behaviors their parents or guardians find unacceptable are scandalously inadequate.  I believe that where such regulations exist, their enforcement is scandalously inadequate.  I believe it *ought to be* illegal to remove any US citizen minor from the US against his/her will for the purposes of behavior modification, as the removal is suspect on its face as a possible attempt to remove the child from the protections of US child welfare laws, such as they are.

Timoclea

[Antigen]

On 2004-08-22 00:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

Bottom line is these places need to be opened up, made transparent, and get rid of the secrecy and make them actual therapeutic places or close them. Our damn govt should use our tax money and try to protect our kids, damn.  "

Here's the thing, though. Government, by its very nature, is juts not very good at that sort of thing.

I think a significan't part of the problem here has to do w/ too much government 'help' in raising kids.

Where do parents get the idea that 1) what is relatively typical adolescent behavior is actually signs of some horrific mental illness, sure to take their children's lives and 2) that any facility that is legally allowed to operate is safe and effective?

I think they take the first concept largely from 30 years worth of government propaganda. There are the PSAs about how good parents are those who snoop and accuse and suspect their kids constantly and that if you merely think your kid has smoked pot, good parents must put a stop to it at all costs!

The second is fairly obvious. We pay for a service, we expect to get it, never mind that the service offered and paid for is probably not possible and certainly not practical.

If you have a serious medical condition, do you just pick any licensed doctor out of the phone book? Or do you ask around, read up and try and find one who has demonstrated excellence in treating that kind of condition? I'm hoping you do the latter. So then, what good is a license? It's not the minimum government standards that make a good doctor. It's peer review.

Our youth can not understand why society chooses to criminalize a behavior with so little visible ill effect or adverse social impact... These young people have jumped the fence and found no cliff.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/nc/ncmenu.htm' target='_new'>Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse

[Anonymous]

I dunno, Ginger.  I think that regardless of how much government we are or aren't used to that these  institutions' marketing comes down to P.T. Barnum's, "There's a sucker born every minute."

*Most* people shop before they buy.  *Most* people don't lose their life savings to crooked contractors.  *Most* people don't send off their life savings to televangelists.  *Most* people don't lose huge sums of money to *any* scam.

But a certain minority always do, the ability to protect such people from themselves is limited, and the biggest problem with this particular scam to separate a fool and his money is that it traumatizes the fools' children.

Anti-fraud laws and public education efforts and prosecutions and safeguards aren't perfect, but when the government puts its mind to stopping a particular kind of scam, it's pretty effective at drastically reducing the incidence of that particular scam.

The problem so far is that nobody wants rotten teenagers roaming around loose in their neighborhood, and that some of the teens that get shipped off to these places who shouldn't be really do have behaviors that society frowns on.  Nobody wants the little sluttie across the street screwing around with their teenage son.  Do they want her shipped off to Utah?  If it gets her out of their neighborhood, and protects their son from a lifetime of child support, they don't mind a bit.

Nobody wants a drunk teen crashing into their mailbox or stealing their trashcan or throwing toilet paper in their trees.  If just keeping their mouth shut and letting the abuse go on gets socially annoying teens out of their neighborhood, most people are cool with that.

At least, they're cool with that unless and until you rub sufficient abuses in their face to shame them into supporting reform.

It's like 1930's Germany.  Make people think of a class of people as subhuman, and you can get away with doing terrible things to them.

The biggest public relations problem those of us who oppose these places face is re-humanizing these teens to the public---making people think of the kids who get shipped off in the context of the honor student, chess club geek, or athlete with the new stepparent, instead of Luke Woodham or Kip Kinkle.

Timoclea

[Deborah]

http://ishmael.com/Education/Writings/rice_u_2_98.shtml

Government is never going to fix the problems inherent in the teen warehouse industry.

[Anonymous]

Likely not.  Involuntary hospitalization for *adults* sure isn't perfect.

But it can be a whole lot better than it is.  And we can have better public awareness and checks and balances to keep kids from being inappropriately involuntarily committed.

Government change has to be part of the solution, because government is part of the problem.  It's government that makes it illegal if parents stick their kids in a bad place for the kids' aunt or uncle or grandparent to go yank them right back out.  It's government that returns the kid if she runs away and some sane, kind adult takes her in.

Government is part of the problem.  To improve the problem, government is going to have to change.

Timoclea

[Antigen]

On 2004-08-22 10:58:00, Anonymous wrote:

The biggest public relations problem those of us who oppose these places face is re-humanizing these teens to the public---making people think of the kids who get shipped off in the context of the honor student, chess club geek, or athlete with the new stepparent, instead of Luke Woodham or Kip Kinkle.

I agree that we have a scapegoating problem. In an older edition of Teenage Liberation Handbook, Marqui Who's Who, you'll find a surprising number of highschool drop outs and near flunkies, very few honor students. Why? I can only guess that conformity is the primary quality that gets you those kinds of distinctions and it is precisely antithetical to the qualities that bring great success.

In other words, most teenagers are troubled and troublesome at some point, some more than others. But the best and brightest among us tend to be the biggest pains in the ass early on. We should not be trying to break them and turn them into geeks!

Drug War tells us everyone's body is common property
to be managed by the central government for our own
good, even if it kills us.  This is Communism!
Drug Policy Foundation of Texas

--Bob Ramsey

[Anonymous]

Based on the laws of the State of Utah, it is evident that laws were broken in the process of removing the child from Utah against the wishes of the parents.  


76-5-301. Kidnapping.

(1) An actor commits kidnapping if the actor intentionally or knowingly, without authority of law, and against the will of the victim:
(a) detains or restrains the victim for any substantial period of time;
(b) detains or restrains the victim in circumstances exposing the victim to risk of bodily injury;
(c) holds the victim in involuntary servitude;
(d) detains or restrains a minor without the consent of the minor's parent or legal guardian or the consent of a person acting in loco parentis, if the minor is 14 years of age or older but younger than 18 years of age; or
(e) moves the victim any substantial distance or across a state line.
(2) As used in this section, acting "against the will of the victim" includes acting without the consent of the legal guardian or custodian of a victim who is a mentally incompetent person.
(3) Kidnapping is a second degree felony.

Amended by Chapter 301, 2001 General Session




As far as determining what is the truth and what is not regarding the emails that were sent home, seeing as the child was a participant in breaking the law, what she says cannot be trusted.  

The Bible tells us that we are subjected to the laws and governing authorities over us.  Period.  The child was subjected to her parents, and we are subjected to the laws of the state.  The laws as shown above were indeed broken.  

Not only has there been interferance with the parents wishes for their daughter, but there has been blatant disregard for lawful order, and as such, with obediance to the Lord.  With that in mind, it is obvious that the current situation, the girl being with those who disregard the law, is harmful to her well-being.

[Antigen]

On 2004-08-25 14:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

(1) An actor commits kidnapping if the actor intentionally or knowingly, without authority of law, and against the will of the victim:
(a) detains or restrains the victim for any substantial period of time;

Was Amanda convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment and sentenced to be imprisoned by ALA in a court of law? In other words, did she receive due process before her normal civil liberties were removed? No? Then didn't they hold her without authority of law?

Emotions rule the world; Is it any wonder that it's so mucked up?!
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-08-21 13:42:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Paige, it's clear to me that Craig and ALA are not real Christians.  Or, at least, they're Fallen Away and in Error if they ever were real Christians.



The New Testament clearly and repeatedly teaches that Christians have a responsibility to obey the laws of the land---and not just the letter of the law, also the spirit of the law.  The NT clearly teaches that even when obeying the laws of the land are grieviously personally onerous, and against one's better judgement, that if the law doesn't literally require you to bow down to idols or commit adultery or verbally explicitly deny your faith or such, that you *have* to obey the laws of the land, letter and spirit, or you SIN.



The NT doesn't give Christians weasel room to say, "Oh, if we follow this law we won't be able to do this great good work, so God must mean for us to break it---or at least, well, if we can keep it from being enforced against us, it's God's Will!"



The NT teaches you have to obey the letter and spirit of the laws of the land, or you're NOT a good Christian and you're heart is NOT right with God, you're Fallen Away and in Error.



Or, in the parlaince of most Protestant churches, if you can wilfully and persistently live in Sin, then you were never truly saved and only pretending and going through the motions without truly letting God into your heart.



But by whichever Christian denomination you want to cite, if you break the letter or spirit of the laws of the land and refuse to repent, whether it's because you were never saved or because you're Fallen, Craig and ALA just aren't good Christians.



So it doesn't surprise me that they can rationalize depriving teenagers of their Constitutional free speech rights.



I'd reckon they could rationalize anything if they set their mind to it, because they've been living on that slippery slope, on that broad road paved with Good Intentions and wrong actions, for a long, long time.



And I apologize to others who aren't as into reading religious philosophical discussions, but I think it's an important point that Craig and ALA get a lot of business and a lot of money and a lot of social status in their social set for how very Christian they are-----when their behavior isn't actually very Christian at all.



Timoclea"

Praise the Lord that He is righteous and He alone is competant to judge the hearts of man.  You and I do not know the heart of those you condem in your rantings.  

The difference between a Christian and someone who is not is a Christian acknowledges when he/she falters; a non-christian blames others for their short comings.

God alone knows the hearts of people.  The Bible tells us we will be judged as we judge others.  So, wisdom dictates that stating "he's not a Christian" is indeed a very foolish thing to do.  That may be your opinion, but it is just that.  Your opinion.  God alone makes that determination, without the help of you or me.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-08-20 15:35:00, Paige wrote:

"We have a young lady who has just returned home from one of those places. We removed her from the facility at her request basically we rescued her. She has told us that the letters are pretty much dictated to them and they have no choice in writting them but they are to be in their own words so that it really sounds like they are writting them.



Brainwashing is probably a good term.



and think about it..... If it wasn't wonderful would they let the letters telling how it really is go out?? NNNNOOOOO.



The kids learn very quickly how to play the game but it is still up to the parents if they can leave or not and if the parents want them to stay, well the kid stays no matter what. Unless there is someone out there who will fight for them.



HELLO George Bush!!!! What happened to NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND?? There are many who are left in these places because their parents do not want the responsibility or the effort it takes to deal with teenagers.



There are chldren in Abundant Life Academy in Mexico that are 12 years old. Many of the chldren there were adopted and I suppose it is just easier to dump them in a place like this than to be an adult and work through whatever problems there are. How sad.



Don't believe the letters -it is a game and it is a game involving tons of money.



"

The Bible tells us to pray for those with authority over us.  That includes President Bush.  Once again, you have shown total disregard and contempt for the authority that has been placed over you.

As far as "dumping" a child, actually, it would be easier to do nothing and allow the child to continue to be rebellious and live an immoral and unlawful life.  It is demonstrating tough love by enrolling your child in a program to get them help.

The influence of a rebellious person on an impressionable young mind is what is sad in this situation.

[Anonymous]

"a non-christian blames others for their shortcomings"?

Well, seeing as how y'all have been blaming Paige so much for what you perceive to be her shortcomings, I guess you've just condemned your own side pretty soundly.

[Anonymous]

"Was Amanda convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment and sentenced to be imprisoned by ALA in a court of law? In other words, did she receive due process before her normal civil liberties were removed? No? Then didn't they hold her without authority of law?"

Please.  Get a grip.  The Bible tells us, plain and clear, if we do not correct our children, we hate them.  

Allowing them to do whatever they want to do is not showing them love.

If the girl would have followed the rules and been respectful to her family, then she would not have had negative consequences.  However, as she chose to be disobedient, she chose consequences.  Likewise, when we as God's children choose to follow the rules, we choose positive consequences which we receive in the form of blessings from the Lord.

Regardless, God is in control and He will use this situation to bring Him glory.  Hopefully, in the process, the girl will learn the folly of her ways before she ends up in a really bad situation, like drugs, living with a guy she is not married to, and/or pregnant.

God holds the parents responsible to raise their children up in the Lord.  The girl has been protected from the world while in the care of her parents.  However, she has turned her back on her parents, and subsequently, on the Lord.  I will be very interested to see how her life is going apart from the Lord 12 months from now.

She has rebelled from her parents, and ultimately from God, as the Bible tells us to "honor your parents".  What she has done is dishonorable.

Whether or not you believe it, or agree with it, it is in the Bible.  Therefore, it is so.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-08-23 11:49:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2004-08-22 10:58:00, Anonymous wrote:


The biggest public relations problem those of us who oppose these places face is re-humanizing these teens to the public---making people think of the kids who get shipped off in the context of the honor student, chess club geek, or athlete with the new stepparent, instead of Luke Woodham or Kip Kinkle.

I agree that we have a scapegoating problem. In an older edition of Teenage Liberation Handbook, Marqui Who's Who, you'll find a surprising number of highschool drop outs and near flunkies, very few honor students. Why? I can only guess that conformity is the primary quality that gets you those kinds of distinctions and it is precisely antithetical to the qualities that bring great success.



In other words, most teenagers are troubled and troublesome at some point, some more than others. But the best and brightest among us tend to be the biggest pains in the ass early on. We should not be trying to break them and turn them into geeks!

Drug War tells us everyone's body is common property
to be managed by the central government for our own
good, even if it kills us.  This is Communism!
Drug Policy Foundation of Texas

--Bob Ramsey

"

Ginger, I picked the honor student, the chess club geek, and the athlete as different "types" in the high school social strata.  A lot of times the honor student is an ordinary student in the regular track who is diligent, the chess club geek may or may not have good grades, the athlete may have no overlap with either type.

We could also include the band kid, the drama kid, the non-joiner, the debate kid, the vo-tech kid, the hacky-sac kid, the Spanish club kid, the yearbook kid, the art kid, the kid in the rock band that plays at the after-prom party, the chorale kid, the 4H kid, the FBLA kid, the x-games kid, the dance kid, etc.

I'm not talking about turning any kid into anything.  I'm talking about getting people to see these teens as ordinary individual kids just like *they* were themselves and think, "If I'd had a wicked stepparent, or my parents had been messed up, or my messed up parents had had more money, that could've been me."

Timoclea

[Nihilanthic]

All this idiot wants is for us to submit to the same authority, beliefs, god and saviour, (George W Bush) as he has.

Why are you still arguing with him?

[Paige]

Quite frankly, I don't care what this person thinks. The Legal team is what matters now as far as the laws go and guess what? They say that we were in accordance with the law and considering there are no charges filed anywhere, the detectives never even bothered to call us back and it is no secret that she requested our help and got it.  Hey, guess your wrong! If any legal entity truly thought that this was kidnapping don't you think that something would have been done by now? Kidnapping? doesn't that have to with restraining the person or keeping them against their will like ALA was doing??
Read the Statutes again Nobody forced this chld to go anywhere! Oh yeah! her parents did they forced her to go to Mexico and left her at the Airport with total strangers. Hmmm, how loving.

We still haven't even heard from the parents and there have been no reports of her missing or kidnapped filed any where in any of the states so get over yourself unless you think you are much smarter than all of the attorneys who have been working and advising everyone on this situation.

By the way she is happy and doing very well.
Doing well in school and looking at getting a job. Loves being able to see her brother and spending time with her great grandmother and we all thank God everyday for her return. She is a blessing in our lives. I'm sorry if you don't agree.