Author Topic: How About This Theory  (Read 33460 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ottawa5

  • Posts: 144
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
How About This Theory
« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2004, 01:59:00 PM »
Antigen--  I agree with you that coercion is distasteful--that's the reason for my earlier question about alternatives to it.  And I agree that you can never be sure what is going to happen.  But as a parent one constantly "best-guesses" and makes decisions, regardless of the uncertainty.

I would like to hear from CEDU grads or attendees on this subject: would it have been better if your parents had told you that no one can tell the future, and that you should make your own mistakes.

Was being forced to go to these schools, either by escort or by obeying your parents due to the power differential, worse than having been allowed to make your own mistakes in the way you were living at the time.

I kind of know how people who had a straigt-out awful experience feel about this, but I would like to hear from people who think that CEDU helped them in some way: was the loss of liberty, at least temporarily, in being sent there, worth it?[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-08-08 11:00 ]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Deborah

  • Posts: 5383
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
How About This Theory
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2004, 02:02:00 PM »
Alternative to sending one's teen to a BM Warehouse?

My suggestion is that you should give up the notion of ?helping? teens, creating an institution to churn out cookie-cutter teens. Instead, you should hold large parenting seminars to train parents on how to set up a BM program right in the comfort of their own homes. While it would require some effort on their part, they should be reminded of the obvious benefits of this option.

You could then lay out the particulars for setting up such an environment:
Their teen would not be allowed to participate in normal teen activities; in fact, the teen would not be allowed outside the house. Of course, they would be forbidden from learning to drive. They would wear a uniform daily. Individuality must be forsaken for ?mental health?. Iron bars would be installed on all windows. They would not be allowed contact with extended family members, friends, or anyone on the outside; and would have very limited contact with other household members, until the parent had determined that they had obtained a certain level of compliance- no complaining to people outside the household about what was happening.  The teen would have no access to a phone, computer or any form of media. Install a security system and surveillance cameras if necessary. Hire a goon to stand guard when you can?t be there and to transport the teen to AA three times a week. Education would be self-instructional. Set up an isolation room to be used as punishment for violation of intentionally irrational rules or for real or perceived attempts to escape. Require the teen to watch motivational speakers or religious zealots. The teen would eat frozen meals and take those meals separate from the family. The teen would have to ask permission to visit the toilet and would be allowed only 3 showers per week, supervised of course. Toiletries and condiments would have to be earned. The teen would not take part in family discussions, activities, outings or vacations. On a daily basis, and for hours on end, the teen would stand in front of other family members who would hurl obscenities at them, rage at them for the ?trouble and embarrassment? they?d caused the family. They would be drilled daily on how a model citizen must think and behave.  In addition, the teen would be required to listen to their parents describe their past sexual histories in detail and be required to divulge their own.  If the teen became too obstinate or otherwise demonstrated resistant to the BM conditioning, parents would instruct their hired goon to PT them in the blazing sun until they were too exhausted to complain.

There are so many particulars, I?m sure I?ve missed some. But that?s a good starting point.

This approach would save parents a boat load of money and work as a possible deterrent for younger children in the family who witnesses the conditioning of their older sibling(s). And the parents could almost be guaranteed forgiveness in the future, provided they ever come to their senses. It is much easier for a kid to forgive a parent for abusing them, than to forgive a parent for hiring it done.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline ottawa5

  • Posts: 144
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
How About This Theory
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2004, 02:42:00 PM »
Deborah--

I'd be against a school that operated on the basis of turning out "cookie-cutter" people, on that we agree completely. The people that I've heard from here, who all went to CEDU schools seem to be very different from each other.

Where we disagree, I'm guessing is on whether some of the techiques used at these schools are helpful and needed. And also whether sometimes a parent has to resort to sending a kid to a emotional growth school.  Am I correct that you would say "Never" while I would say "Sometimes, after every at-home alternative is tried"?

Listen, if you happen to send me any response and I don't reply I'm not blowing you off, as you have thought sometimes.  My schedule is such that sometimes I can be around computers a lot, other times, not.  Today is an away-from-the-computer day from here on in.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
How About This Theory
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2004, 02:52:00 PM »
How about never by force? That alone would make a huge difference. It would create a natural limit to how far they could push the kids. It would eliminate a huge barrier to healthy, productive therapeutic relationships between staff and participants. It would also eliminate probably the #1 objection that kids who might need a little help have against going to a program.

When the government's boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence.
-- Gary Lloyd

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline bradensmith

  • Posts: 39
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bradensdomain.netfirms.com
How About This Theory
« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2004, 03:02:00 PM »
good now things are looking a bit better on this forum...

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
=====
B-Man
======
Braden Smith
\":)\"

Offline Deborah

  • Posts: 5383
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
How About This Theory
« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2004, 03:25:00 PM »
I won't contribute to brainstorming 'how it can be better' because I disagree with the basic assumption that incarceration of teens is appropriate and humane, short of violent behavior-and then very temporarily.

No parent has 'tried everything'- not one. That is a gross exaggeration, and commonly used to justify out-of-home placements. Parents haven't created the environment I described above in their own homes. If a parent could accomplish the same results at home, employ the same 'techniques', why wouldn't they? It's easier to hire it done?

Therefore the industry is but a service for parents. And you hope to profit from providing that service.

Yes, the posters here have different personalities and experiences with their programs. Doesn't deny the fact that the goal of the facility was to create cookie cutter teens. To indoctrinate the teens with their brand of morals and values and perceptions of reality.

Given that parents are going to continue to take the easy was out- the very least you could do is set up a democratic, nurturing, and enriching environment in which the teens decide how they will live together, negotiating agreements (real agreements, not 'rules' presented as agreements), i could go on... but in a nutshell, an enviroment based on respect.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline former CEDU therapist

  • Posts: 89
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
How About This Theory
« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2004, 05:02:00 PM »
I hate to say it, Ottawa, but forcing a kid is sometimes necessary. I have had parents deceive the kid every time we go for placement. Here's the deal - the kid is deceiving the parent all over the place. I have deceived clients by telling them I would not call 911 when they took a bottle of Tylenol. Of course, I do call. I did not get into this business to be complicit in someone's suicide. Don?t want me to call 911? Then don?t call me and tell me you did that!

NO kid is going to go along with going to a placement facility. Why would they? It?s hard enough to get adults to get help. Alcoholics lose homes, jobs, and families, but keep on drinking. How do you get someone with terrible judgment problems to make good decisions? You can?t. I?ve been to too many funerals of bright young people with promise to think that you have to ask them nicely if they want to go.

The key is knowing who really needs it. That?s the issue. Also, as has been mentioned in these posts, decent academics would make a big difference. And number one ? decent, kind staff who don?t think that they are supposed to tear a kid down and rebuild him. All you get with that is a wounded, angry soul.


Quote
On 2004-08-08 07:44:00, ottawa5 wrote:

"Thanks, this is exactly the type of thing I am trying to learn. Thanks to the "anonymous" poster too.



If you don't mind, I'll email in a week or so, I'd like to have my son (he's travelling right now) to be in on the discussions, since he was there too, and has insights that I don't.



But one more question--what do you think can be done about what some posters call the "coercive" aspects of these schools?  



In our own case, my son would never have gone if we hadn't physically taken him there. But what else is a parent supposed to do if an underage kid is relentlessly getting involved with criminal, not to mention, physically dangerous activities?  I just didn't have the heart to let him go out into the world in the hopes that he would "bottom out" before he killed himself, and anyway, we had legal responsibilties to him as a minor.



My question, what alternatives do you see to forcing a kid to attend one of these schools--are there any that occur to you out of your own experience?



Here is the thing: I really want to do this right if I do start a school or even take part in one, so believe me, I appreciate all the input, positive, and negative, too. I intend to, and hope I can, use it all to do good, in one way or another. "
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
How About This Theory
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2004, 06:52:00 PM »
I went throught the CEDU program and I would say that the tactics used by many staff are manipulation, among other things that they would tell us to work on. Overall I would say that the CEDU program had given me more anger, rather than helping me locate and get over problems I had as a child. I spent nearly two years at the CEDU program, and even went to a CEDU based wilderness program called ASCENT, either of which never helped me much at all. I feel like my parnets have wasted great ammounts of money into that program.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
How About This Theory
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2004, 07:23:00 PM »
I am so sorry to read this. It's ironic that you would note that you felt manipulated by the staff. "Manipulation" is their favorite word to use against the students!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
How About This Theory
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2004, 07:42:00 PM »
Maybe it's their favorite word for a reason. No irony there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline oh shizzle son

  • Posts: 40
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
How About This Theory
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2004, 09:12:00 PM »
i was escorted as well to idaho and id have to say it was the worst day of my life, the night i happened to be sleeping at home (becuase my parents were out of town!) these two big guys come in and tell me not to move...i went from the thought of oh shit i have people breaking in my house..great. Then when they said dont move i thought it was the cops so i was a bit relieved and then worry started to set in, oh shit im going back to jail, damnit! well laying in bed i looked at the clock and realized it was 4:06 haha yeah i still remember and i was a bit dumbfounded.  then before i even got the chance to move one of the guys was on my back not letting me move....so i immediately yelled what the fuck is this?! and they said shut up! so i put up a fight like any normal person and they immediately had me up against the wall in plasticuffs. which made me bleed and wouldnt let me get dressed...i was in boxers....still not comprehending what was goin on i ran for it..got loose and outside and realized it was freezing and got about halfway down my block and just stopped...worst mistake of my life...
next thing you know im slammed into a car and i still have no idea what the hell is going on...

next thing you know im at Ascent still wearing my boxers and a wife beater...what a day

my point is, i had no cluw what was going on the escorts posted as cops and showed no badge and wouldnt let me ask any questions and on top of that i went the whole day from 4 am to about 5-6 with no food besides water and was served an ascent meal...which is horseshit anyways...

that was my experience with escorting
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
How About This Theory
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2004, 09:25:00 PM »
OSS:
If your folks said hey we think you are f*&^ed up and we don't know what to do about it so we want to take you to a therapeutic wilderness program/boarding school would you have gone?

I hate the idea of escort (and I'm not nuts about most of these programs), but did your parents wimp out or did they see it as a necessary evil? I know of a couple of girls at CEDU who were escorted and they did not need to be at all...it was a total humiliation for them.

The most shocking day of my life was going to CEDU and going into a rap I could not believe the shit I ws hearing!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline bradensmith

  • Posts: 39
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bradensdomain.netfirms.com
How About This Theory
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2004, 10:10:00 PM »
Yea Oh my God, my first rap was a little off the tracks.  It was crazy, but i guess i am happy to say that i didn't have the same escorting experience that you did.  That sounds pretty messed up.  What were your issues? were you a violent person at home and thats what they were watching out for?  Its just your escorts seem a little too harsh...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
=====
B-Man
======
Braden Smith
\":)\"

Offline Antibody?

  • Posts: 108
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
How About This Theory
« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2004, 01:35:00 AM »
I'm going to agree with Antigen on this one.
You can't get real with a kid without communication on a more personal level than force. What ever happened to compassion?

I continue to see kids come out of CEDU burning with anger, shivering with fear, and, with no idea who they are or how to care for themselves.

They can't apply for jobs, work, relate to real problems and live with people rationally. Their soul has been broken. Their life has been the institution. Their God a machine that throws a tray of food in front of them. No wonder they are lost in a matrix.

It is correct that parents pay to have the job of raising their kid done by someone else, someone without attachment to anything but a paycheck - and a feeling of ritiousnes.

Staff, -  These people are rescures of inauthenticity and legends in their own minds. In reality, they are empty, nothing without that false praise used by the system to enable their hidden arrogance.

They are nothing trying to be something - at your, and your parents' expence.

As for escorts - damn the escorts. They are maggots, leaches, sell-outs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline mad

  • Posts: 56
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
How About This Theory
« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2004, 07:26:00 AM »
I believe that the work I did while at RMA saved my life, or rather I can not imagine how I would be alive today had I not gone there.  Were there facilitators and aspects about the program that were destructive?  Absolutely, but for me there was certainly more good experienced than not (I graduated in 1993).  

As I mentioned in my first post on this string, I am also sure that there is nothing that my parents could have done that would have convinced me to go to RMA of my own volition.  They tried and I choose leaving home over going ? I had been 16 at the time.  While I wish that my parents had not watched me get taken away by the bounty hunters they hired, their having me forcibly picked up was a last resort.  I had dropped out of school, was living on the street, and knowingly putting myself in harms way.

Given the other posts on this topic I also want to give voice to something that is perhaps obvious to some but maybe news to others whose situations were different than my own.  One of the best things about going to RMA was that it got me away from my parents and my home environment.  While my parents truly did the best that they could to parent me, they were pretty limited folks in what they had to offer and teach me.  Their needs not mine, had always come first.  In many ways, they were as out of control as I had been and on some level knew that they couldn?t help me anymore.

Best, M
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n the road of experience...