Author Topic: For Ottawa  (Read 10699 times)

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Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2004, 10:10:00 PM »
Now didn't you ever learn way back there, in kindergarten or so, that "names will never hurt you"?  They will, of course, until you become strong and integreted as a person, and until you really believe that when you are doing what is right and good, it is a very small thing to be called "weak", to be attacked as having "no self-esteem".  I am sure my son would agree if he even cared enough to read your post.

I might say also that it ill behooves somebody who doesn't even have the fortitude to post under a username to talk about things like weakness. Well, my son's life will be the arbiter of the person he is, but I do think that CEDU made him stronger.  Things like courage and integrety are qualities that can be learned through experience so there is still time for you--do not despair.

Speaking of kindergarten, someone told me, I have not found it for myself yet, that a couple of ANON's were talking about whether they should start ignoring me in one of the Hot Topics today.  Does that kind of thing really go on among people approaching their middle adult years?  

Now see, I thought that this "Let's not talk to her because she won't be in our club" stuff finished up by about fourth or fifth grade.

I'm really not so frightening, I don't think, that there needs to be concerted efforts to try to shut me down. I'm just a middle-aged mom with some emotional growth experiences--nothing much to worry about--if the predominant point of view at the site makes more sense than mine, I'm sure it will prevail.  Why don't we let the truth of the matter decide the outcome?[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-07-30 19:12 ][ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-07-30 19:14 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2004, 11:15:00 PM »
Ottawa, to me you are a person who continually and deliberately ignores the abuses of the school, in spite of many painful and truthful posts by others. It's not about "sticks and stones."  Any moron knows that words do hurt and to continually deny traumatic experiences of others causes great sadness or anger.  Now, I guess I could just say "Ottawa is a clueless, heartless woman" so who cares what she has to say. And I have come to question whether I should just ignore all of your posts or respond. It's not about booting you out of the club; it's about coming to terms with a person who acts as thoughtlessly as you do.

You've got the right to free speech, we all do, but noone appreciates a person who continually pushes their pro-CEDU rhetoric while absolutely denying that serious systemic flaws existed at CEDU.  

I feel for your future patients.
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Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2004, 11:47:00 PM »
I have a sense that for some people (maybe you are one of them) it is thoughtlessness personified to not simply agree with them, go along to get along is their god, and free thinking outside the box is heresy.

It is like a mental block that I find here--what must I say to make clear that I want to enlarge, to improve upon CEDU-type programs, to make them work for more people than they have worked for in the past--I am not saying that what has been done is perfect, but to me at least, there is something real to the CEDU emotional-growth experience that transcends what I have found elsewhere. I would like others to experience it too.

Do what you have to do--that is the best advice I can offer anyone, and if you don't correspond with me, doubtless someone else will.

There are the very valuable private messages available here too, I have probably learned as much from those who have posted there as I have learned from those who post on the main site.
I do have a sense that you over-extend your own interpretation--I mean, you may see me as "clueless" and "heartless".  Do not assume that your point of view is a universal conclusion.

I remain interested in common ground, it isn't me who will not consider that there is some middle position--I am saying outright that there may be ways to improve upon the emotional growth experience, to make it helpful for people who have not profited from it in the past, and still allow all participants to reap the benefits that some have already been able to experience.  

It is people like you who dogmatically refuse to admit that some of us have benefited from what is offered at CEDU, as if your own experience should somehow be overriding, and we should just acquiesce to your analysis and ignore what happened to us that was good.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2004, 08:53:00 AM »
it's me again, funny that you would call me weak for not having a user name, when your own son is won't even come on this site and defend himself, preferring instead to let mommy fight his battles for him!  your son is obviously a weak-willed coward, who still needs mommy to protect
him, how pathetic, how sad.  why won't your son come onto this site ottawa? is he really that afraid of us, or is it that mommy won't let him?
Or maybe he really doesn't feel the same way about cedu that you do, maybe he's afraid to come on this site because he worries that his true feelings on cedu would upset mommy! we've all seen what a raving bitch you can be ottawa, it's no wonder why he is so scared of you. enough already, you continue to defend a program, which in reality you know absolutely nothing about. You never actually experienced cedu, all you have is a few parent workshops, and whatever stories your son told you.  You have no right to defend anything cedu does, since it's obvious you have no clue as to what really goes on there.  bring your son on this site, he may be weak willed and unable to think for himself, but at least he experienced cedu first hand, and he may actually have something meaningful to contribute.  the only thing that ottawa contributes is a bunch of regurgetated psycho-babble, and a lot of hot air.
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Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2004, 10:35:00 AM »
You'll get the last word here, oh Invisible One, because I am off travelling today, but just to give you a clue about my son, in case you want one---

It is true that he has no interest in coming on this site, but not, as you say, and I suppose hope, because he is weak.  It is simply because he has no interest in your (ie the site's) arguments.

Now I have the advantage of knowing him day to day, so that will be my source of understanding of his strength or weakness---since he doesn't know you and you don't know him, there will not be a big void in the universe of valuable knowledge if you don't agree with me on this one.

So you, as  most Anon posters do, will, I suppose, continue to grasp at any straw, any insult, to try to think that someone, anyone, is more timid than they are. Does the A in Anon stand for "afraid to be known even by a user name"?

What is this, do you think that posting here should be required by law; for everyone in the world, or only for successful CEDU grads?  

Look, you point out that I am only a parent, that I have never been a student in a CEDU school,-is that a news flash or what?  Did I ever claim that I had?  I am here as a parent, only, not as a student, not as a staff memeber, not as a psychologist, just a parent who had good experiences with the school my son went to.

I have a sense that with people like you who are fully indoctrinated in the Hate-CEDU mentality, anyone who stands up to you, disputes you in any way, pushes back verbally when you push her verbally, is a "bitch" or a "mole", anything so you don't have to admit to yourself that other people are not necessarily as resentful and group-thinking as you are.

Talk about "cult-like indoctrination", this unchallengeable-by-reason, faith-based belief that nothing good ever happened to anyone who went to a CEDU school--do yourself a favor and just try deconstructing this idea for an hour or so--does it really make sense that these schools can exist for decades, and never have any good results?  

I mean, don't you think that word might get around, in a broader way than on largely unknown web sites? Is everyone who leaves and lives happy lives, and everyone who goes back to the parent or the student reunions, mistaken about what happened to them?  What about all the families and alumni who give money to the CEDU Foundation to help keep kids at the schools when parents run out of money? I mean, these are pretty high functioning people in a lot of ways in their lives, to be, in your analysis, just a bunch of brain-washed zombies.

Maybe we're not all brainwashed, maybe we just had a different experience than you did.

Ok, maybe the programs can be improved upon, most things in the world can, that is an important thing and something that I am interested in.  But this cloak-and-dagger stuff, "CEDU is going to come and get me if I post a username", "You must be a CEDU employee here to get us", this is not right. These kinds of comments are instructive of what the type of thinking I see at this site can do to a person.

I have made a decision not to be too concerned about what you think of me.  I have to, to  function in a place like this. Maybe I have not been as forgiving and meek about insults that have been addressed to me here, as a very saintly person would have been.  

Well, I'm not a saint, just a person who has found something good in the whole emotional growth concept that has strenghtened me, enriched my life, enriched our family's life.  I would like other people to experience that too.

I am the first one to say that if there is any way to work things out with a teenager who is having problems, do it at home, if it is at all possible, exhaust every possibility before you resort to sending a child away.  

But sometimes it is necessary. I would like to see programs like the ones at the CEDU schools improved upon, so that there don't have to be the kinds of poor, even terrible, results that many people have reported here. And so everyone who attends these schools can have a chance to experience the positive things that we have been able to  experience. [ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-07-31 07:39 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2004, 11:54:00 AM »
I think the issue is this: you keep promoting a school to former students who were abused by it. Pretty sick, if you ask me.

If, in your opinion, you had a good experience, I can't speak to that. I'm not wasting time trying to change your opinion of your experience. So good for you.

But in all honesty, you are not sensitive to our situation at all. In fact, you've been condescending, demeaning, and ignorant.  

I posted before that we should not be abusive to you in our protest, but in a way, your attitude is more insidiously distasteful.  It is not that you disagree with the CEDU methodology, which we find abhorrent. But because you rationalize and trivialize what happened to us.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2004, 12:21:00 PM »
Ottowa, first you can't speak for your son. All you know is what he shows you and what you're willing to see. You don't know what's going on in his head any more than any human being can know the mind of another. So there's no point in your trying to argue the point over whether or not the Program was harmful or traumatic or whatever. You weren't there so you don't know.

Second, you want to know what you look like from the pov of a Program vet? Remember back in the crazy summer of `70? Remember the Manson trial? Remember all the pretty, nieve young women attending every hearing and virtually worshiping good old "Charlie"?

Someone earlier made another apt comparison. You might just as well stand outside a Holocaust museum handing out neo-nazi litterature.

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2004, 02:28:00 PM »
***Here is the thing: in my view, these schools have three components: behavioral, educational, and psychological.

In truth, there are but two components: educational (if the kids are lucky) and psychological- as the behavioral component is an aspect of psychology and is presented as ?therapy?.

*** These are not mental institutions, where psychological/psychiatric management is the one overriding approach (although even there, there are often behavioral and other specialists playing an important role). Much of what these kids need is structure, discipline, and consistent reinforcement which they are not getting at home? It is true that behavior modification was formalized within the discipline of psychology, but the principles underlying it have existed, I would guess, since human beings had cognition?

Given this,  that programs are basically providing parenting (structure and discipline), should insurance companies be paying for ?treatment?? Should parents seek IEP funds for their ?disabled? child? Should parents take tax deductions for visiting their ?disabled? child at the facility? Can?t have it both ways. They?re either boarding schools providing ?firm but kind? parenting, or psych facilities providing ?treatment?. It is fraudulent to classify your operation as a boarding school to avoid regulations and monitoring, yet advertise to the public as a therapeutic facility and accept money for children with ?disabilities?.

***In an emotional growth atmosphere, where the ultimate hope is to put the child in touch with his or her emotional self, and to promote self-love and care, this reinforcement must be done with kindness and concern, as well as firmness--it appears that for some of the people here, this requirement was not met.

I fail to see how isolation from one?s family, harsh punishments for minor infractions (kind?)- misuse of BM,  inappropriate ?peer pressure?, denial of basic needs, touch deprivation, being subjected to deception and double standards, could possibly foster self love.  I think 'success' depends more on the kid?s ability to ACT. To demonstrate the behaviors that have been deemed appropriate. It?s not just ?some? people, but the majority- as all programs employ these techniques. The whole concept is flawed, in my opinion, because children don?t flourish in  ?programs?. They need families- people who genuinely love and care for them; and thoughtful helpers who, with any hope, can assist the PARENTS in fostering better relationships with their children.
In spite of your best intentions, you (or any program you are associated with) are not going to replace the role of family. The only way to help teens or parents is to help the parent gain an understanding of how to treat their teen respectfully.

***You have to remember that thre are kids in the adolescent years who really do not belong in a psychiatric institution and yet their behavior makes it impossible for them to be cared for safely at home.

I disagree. Three to five thousand dollars a month could buy all the resource a family needs, at home. It?s simply more convenient to place the kid in residential ?treatment?. The primary benefit is to the parent- eases their exaggerated fears that their kid will end up in jail or dead, when the statistics do not warrant such an extreme and austere reaction. Of course, insurance will not pay for a big brother or an elder mentor, or extra-curricular activities, or any of the other possible resources a parent might find locally.

*** I have a sense that a portion of, though not all, of the problems that the unfavorable outcomes represent, is poor program placement. Some kids maybe got placed in these kinds of schools for problems that really could have been managed at home

If you eliminate the kids who could?ve been ?managed at home? and those who have ?serious psychological problems?, your market has dwindled to a very small percentage of kids. Kids like your own, who are going through the natural and necessary developmental phase of separating- rebelling against authority. Kids are wrongly placed everyday- all of them in my opinion, and ?some? in your?s. The reason- programs exist to make a profit and integrity is therefore compromised on every level.  You may find yourself compromising for this very reason.

Helping teens get in touch with their ?emotional selves? sounds nice and therapeutic, in theory. In reality, I don?t see this happening. Teens are subjected to adult forms of ?therapy?. They are not taught how to advocate for themselves or the skills necessary to negotiate and compromise. Their feelings and thoughts are evaluated and judged on a daily basis. They are not given accurate information. They are conditioned to think and perceive as the counselor or program does.  Too many times they are outright told that their parents don?t care about them. That may be true, but it isn?t something that needs to be used against the child in order to gain compliance.
In fact, they actually appear to be holding tanks for teens until they have passed their most challenging developmental phase. A service for parents.  I?ve heard many a parent express relief that their teen is incarcerated because they do not want to be fiscally or socially responsible for their kid?s behavior. And further, that they can?t wait until their kid reaches 18, at which time they will be put on the streets to fend for themselves.

***So what I am seeing as major pitfalls in the programs at this point are: 1)the danger of not hiring staff with the personal qualities that allow for kindness and firmness, as well training or some kind of knowledge of adolescents?

That doesn?t appear to be the goal. Programs train their staff in their particular techniques. Staff are often young and are trained to see everything as black or white. No grey. No compromise, no negotiation, no democracy. They follow the program manual and miss vital clues from the kids, opportunities in which they could help the teen explore and dismantle some of the misperceptions they?ve formulated in their wacked out homes and communities. You can not ?teach? or train someone how to be kind and loving. Those qualities are either present or not, stemming from one?s own life experience- if they?ve been respected or just taught to defer to authority.

Case in point. My son told me that he didn?t feel like he was getting enough time with his counselor- the female peer group leader. Given that we had always had a close and open relationship, something his father envied and resented; I imagined that he might just be needing some motherly nurturing. Some ?unstructured? time with his new pseudo-mom. An adult who would show interest in his extra-curricular activities (baseball). I innocently mentioned this, assuming we held the same beliefs about what kids need, to her and asked if she?d give him some one-on-one time and perhaps allow him to talk about it if it came up. What she gave him was a lengthy lecture on how much time he was given (in group, btw), how many kids they had to deal with, and then placed him on restriction for ?manipulating? me. This was so unethical I could hardly believe it was happening. She first violated my confidence and the trust between my son and I. She made no attempt to assess what his real need was. Even if it was a poorly expressed need for nurturing, was punishment in order? And she never found time to attend a baseball game. Genuine needs are left unmet because their lazer focus is on emotional growth in groups which are poorly done and cause more harm than good. The truth is, she didn't genuniely care about him, or have a vested interest in providing his real needs. She was there to do a job, the way the program had instructed her.
When I addressed this issue with the headmaster he chose not to defend or explain the therapeutic thinking behind this approach. He would not speak to me because I didn?t write the checks.  I have spoken to parents who were writing the checks. If they disagreed with or challenged the program?s policies or procedures, they were labeled ?adversarial?. If they bucked the system too much they were asked to remove their child, and then were not refunded pre-paid tuition because they ?removed? their child. I have looked hard for anything ethical about this industry. I can?t find it.

Believe me, I think there are kids who could benefit from being away from their screwed-up parents. Who would benefit from living in a democratic group, learning valuable life skills. Fuck a bunch of emotional growth groups and workshops. Emotional growth is a by-product of being treated with respect. That is the only way it is ?taught?. If I thought for a minute that this industry was providing this, I?d be a strong advocate. And if the industry truly met the kids needs, teens would be lining up outside to get in.

**And, at least at the time we were involved in the school, the staff, across the board was pretty wonderful; there is a lot of turnover in this line of work, I admit that maybe it was not always wonderful for other times and places.

You may benefit from listening to the ex-staff. There is a very high turnover. I imagine the die-hards who stay in the industry are those who gain pleasure from BMing kids to death and who are incapable of having a genuinely authentic relationship with them. They are about ?fixing? these ?emotional terrorists? and too often gain pleasure from abusing them.

And then there are those who work underground in the programs. My son had such a counselor in wilderness. An older, experienced professional, who was also genuinely a good person.  While the field staff were ex-military and subjected him to unnecessary abuse and excessively dangerous situations that were not age appropriate, he preferred the wilderness program to the TBS. Because, in his own words, ?the ?therapy? at the TBS was bullshit.?
The wilderness counselor approved letters that would never have gotten out of the TBS. She didn?t place value judgments on his expressions or try to manipulate his interpretations of things. She validated his feelings and never punished him for complaining. She actually validated his perceptions of the lame-ass ?therapy? at the TBS.  She consistently gave him appreciation for his intelligence, emotional maturity, clarity of perception and leadership qualities. She understood that he had not acquired these qualities while incarcerated and never attributed them to the program. He genuinely appreciated her for her wisdom and willingness to be honest. She was a guardian angel, the only rational and reasonable person he (we) encountered. She also often appreciated me for the fine job I had done raising him.  Because he has always been tall for his age, she told me that she thought he was 17 or 18. He was 15.  She was also honest enough to say that my son should not be there. Something I already knew, but it was comforting to have a staff member at the facility finally acknowledge this. Did she advocate for his removal? No. It would?ve been pointless, because as other ex-staff have said, they do not want staff interfering with the way they run their business. The only thing she could do was approve letters telling the truth about what was happening there and provide indirectly support for my efforts to have him removed. She gave me ample ammunition for my cause, had there not been other extenuating circumstances.

Everyone who had contact with my son knew he was ?wrongly? placed, but his presence ensured another $5000 + a month to help keep the boat floating.
Since his father had bought it hook, line, and sinker; they perjured themselves in order to convince the court that I was ?adversarial? and that my son needed ?treatment?. Unethical, self-serving. That is what this industry is about. And if you consider my experience to be an isolated incident, you are sorely mistaken.

There are many, many parents who paid for their teens incarceration and arrived at the very same conclusions I did. They choose to chalk it up to a mistake rather than taking an active role in educating other parents about the reality of the industry.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2004, 02:50:00 PM »
***Ok, maybe the programs can be improved upon, most things in the world can, that is an important thing and something that I am interested in. But this cloak-and-dagger stuff, "CEDU is going to come and get me if I post a username", "You must be a CEDU employee here to get us", this is not right. These kinds of comments are instructive of what the type of thinking I see at this site can do to a person.

"Cloak-and-dagger". Another glowing example of the way you minimize other's experiences and attempt to write them off as some emotional disorder, and why you are attacked. Many, including myself have been threatened with lawsuits, unwarranted slap suits. The threats are real, not perceived. Fornits is one of the very few places for suvivors to tell their experiences. Some choose to avoid being identified to avoid the headache.
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gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2004, 04:33:00 PM »
My dear woman, thank you for telling me I cannot speak for my son, apparently you mean in the sense of living inside his head or scanning his brain or something. I was sort of aware of that already but thanks for the input.

Just as in any close relationship, however, people tell each other things, there is interactive communication on issues of interest, there is closeness and intimacy of thought.  That is the kind of relationship we have, so I think that I know a little something about his view of things, clearly more than, say, you do.  

And I certainly know more about CEDU than you do, since you weren't even involved with that group of schools in any way, were you?  Not even for a parent workshop. Oh, I know that you've got some rather specious theory that the CEDU program is exactly the same as some other school of thought that you really think you know something about.  Well, I'm sure that you believe this.  I'll trust my actual experience with CEDU over your transparently zealous extrapolations, thanks anyway.

Now, as to your most entertaining Charles Mansion analogy, in your recent post:  are you saying that I remind you of one of the young women or of good old "Charlie"? I suppose neither is very flattering but it just wasn't clear to me as you presented it.

Well, we all have analogies that we see in people from time to time.  I was actually talking to a retired trial lawyer over coffee yesterday and decribing this site.  He thought for all the world that it sounded like a front for some kind of lawyerly drumming up of outrage at a deep-pockets school or schools, in order to get some class action going, or at least to extract a little taste by threat of such?

You aren't on any kind of retainer from attorneys to run this site, are you? No promise of a future share of the profits from any suit or settlement? I think that it's always good to get your financial interests out in the open where they do exist, so please clarify.

I am sure that you will react with a big "How dare you..." but since I've been here, I've been accused of being paid for referrals, of being a CEDU employee, of being a CEDU or some other school espionage agent.  So if the question of other interests can be fairly put to me, well, why not even to you?

I have to leave today, but will look for your response when I return.
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Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2004, 05:02:00 PM »
Make no mistake, I know that I can be pretty wordy myself and I love language in general, the sounds, the grammatical constructions, the strange and kaleidoscopic ways in which we can express ourselves.

But I can't keep up with you, I am still wrestling with your mega-post of last Sunday and here come some more.

I feel like that little girl in Jurassic Park II or III, on the beach,  almost devoured by all the little carnivorous dinosaurs after she was foolish enough to offer part of her sandwich to a couple of them.

Listen we are going on a little get-away and perhaps we can talk later, I am going in general to stay off line, but I will be checking "Private Messages" when we are somewhere where computer terminals are available and if time permits, I will check Topics posts too.

A thought that we can pursue if we do speak again:

Since you are willing to give me advice and offer insight about my life, let me make a suggestion about yours.  

When I read your stories, it sounds like you are very, very angry that someone else (your husband, the courts) got control of your son's future.  I know that you have some ideas about me coming from a background in which control plays a big part, and you are right, this is so, though I have acknowledged and looked into these things some time ago adn continue to consider them.  I do not get the sense that you have faced the power/control issues in your own life--- these things are often easier to see in someone else's life than in one's own.

I would hope that your whole large involvement in the "Hate CEDU" thing is not about proving that you are getting control back by hurting these anad any related schools, posting about them, etc.  

And if your son has made peace with his experiences or even has found good things in them, is it worth an exercise in power and control to try to convince him otherwise? I read somewhere or other that you would bring him to this site when he was "ready".  His experiences are his own, are they not, why would you want to drag him into your fight if that is what it amounts to?

Well, as I say, you and others have been very willing to tell me all about my own life and family. So I return a little advice to you, which you may reject as ridiculous or consider as maybe having some truth to it.

And I will check your response, if any, sometime in the future.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2004, 06:53:00 PM »
Nope, I'm not on a retainer, no promise or implication of any future payoff of any kind. Statute of limitations ran out for me decades ago. So far, the only involvement I've had w/ any lawsuits has been to be on the receiving end.

You see, some of the peopl involved in the troubled parent industry are made very, very uncomfortable by free expression of the subject. And we have had program operators, edcons and other individuals post to these forums pretending to be happy customers. And we've had a number of plain out recruiters drop in here too. So don't think it's paranoid for someone to speculate that you might be up to something like that. It actually happens all the time.

Looking back to your first post, on Bryan's advice, I find your story quite plausible. You're looking for input in hopes of starting your own franchise. You might well even believe that it's possible to create a forced BM program that does less harm that some of these places. But it's not. The only way to change someone against their will is to break their will. There's just no kinder, gentler way to do that.

As far as the Manson allegory, well, you asked. You want to understand people's experience so that you can impliment a program that's not so harmful, understand this. Some of these kids have been horribly abused in this program that you think is so wonderful. These are not isolated incidents, as you keep suggesting. Psyche abuse and emotional abuse are a core part of the Program. A big part of that is the smug way that staff goes about making the kids out to be liars and manipulators if they try to tell anyone or even if they complain at the time the abuse is going on. So you shouldn't be so surprised that people respond w/ anger when you try to do essentially the same thing here.

But I don't think you ever answered my question, though. What would happen if your son quit working his Program? Would he still get college funding? Or would you follow Program advice and invest it all in more forced behavior mod or just withold funding and assistance so as to avoid being an enabler?

Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.
                                                                               
--Julius Caesar



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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2004, 07:49:00 PM »
Oh, for Pete's sake! I did not diagnose you. I am observing that you are putting MANY, MANY hours into posting VERY LENGTHY letters. I rarely even look at this site. I don't have time for it.

I didn't criticize your writing. Your writing is excellent. However, I do see that you are WAY too involved in these posts. You did not read my post accurately. I'm not going to bother with a member name because I don't plan on posting here much.

If you are in a practicum, you need to print out all of your posts and show them to your teacher. If he's worth his salt, he will be concerned. The time and energy you put into this certainly concerns me - if you plan to be a therapist. You need to know when to walk away. You need some good, good, good supervision. When I was in supervision, it was the things that hurt me the most that I learned the most from. I'm telling you the truth here; your intense invovlement in this web site concerns me - on behalf of your future clients.

I did not diagnose you. You did not read carefully. I said you read like a person with... This is not doagnosis. However, looking at your response to me strengthens that view. Yes, you do read like a borderline. Not your excellent use of language - your personal involvement, your intenst posts, your almost desperate efforts to get us to see things your way, your utter lack of being able to be objective. You are very defensive in these posts. And, your misinterpretation and misreading of mine just tells me more.

There is absolutely no ethical violation in what I said. Go back to your laws and ethics class. Go to your supervisor - I hope you will. Print out all your posts - don't leave any off - and ask him what he thinks.

I wrote:

"IF she is in a graduate program, and not undergrad as I think she is, she's in a crummy program or she's getting poor supervision - or she has a personality disorder. She uses psychobabble inappropriately and is labling people here. She reads like a person with borderline personality disorder. Borderlines are more crazy-making than psychotic people."


Quote
On 2004-07-30 09:15:00, ottawa5 wrote:

"Speaking of sounding suspicious, I'd bet the rent that you are not anyone with advanced training in psychology--maybe I'm wrong and you're just atypical---it happens, but a number of things you say make me do something that I seldom do, that is, to say that I think you are not being truthful. It is correct that I have said that our family's experiences were not like some of the others expressed here, but I have never suggested that these people were not being truthful. I am saying that about you.



For one thing, I am shocked that a real psychologist would try to diagnose someone as borderline or anything else from posts on a web site.  What a fine clinician you must be if, indeed there is any truth to your claim, why have an office, you can just work from your lap top in a coffee shop.



The other thing is that you either don't read terribly well or are kind of obtuse, because I have said several times that I am not here as a therapist, but as an individual and a parent who may someday open a school of my own.  Now I guess that you could get your Ph.D. and not be a careful reader enough to get this, but it is another argument that something may be fishy with your post.



Thirdly, I have been told by many psycholosts and others in the helping professions that my writing style is ideal for the discipline because I have excellent grammar, vocabulary, and expressive skills, indeed, I have actually published work in a referreed, scientific journal and will probably do so again.  Now, of course it is a difficult argument to make that one "doesn't write like a therapist" anyway, because therapists write in all sorts of ways.  Again a sign, not conclusive to be sure, but a possible sign that you don't know much about scientific/psychological writing or the way therapists write (ie differently) from one another.



What might be a legitimate concern to you is: how can I be a student in practicum training and yet be on line so much:  it happens that this time period is a break in our class work and I am working on my thesis on a computer beside the one I am posting on--I am only actually on site for my practicum part-time in the summer.  Since I am an extremely prolific and quick writer, I use the posting as a break between thesis ideas.  A clarificaiton for you, just in case you are not as full of prunes as I think you are. and you are legitimately puzzled by my availability on line.



My hunch is that, whether or not you have any training in psychology, you are a fan of this site and you are alarmed by my presence which you find challenges the party line here.  



Maybe that is why you would throw around psychological terms and do such an extremely unethical thing as to attempt diagnose someone from some web posts.  



Come on now, Pseudo-Psychologist, everyone works better for a little competition--and anyway one of these days my hiatus from training will end and I won't be here, near so much at least.  Then you can do back to being whoever you really are and post as you would like to, in the absence of anyone to readily challenge you. [ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-07-30 09:18 ][ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-07-30 09:21 ]"
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2004, 09:42:00 PM »
If you want my "diagnosis", our new friend Ottowa5 may be trying to assist CEDU in their legal troubles. I think I'll give Mr. Wyatt a call Monday and see what he can make of the data I'm looking at.

Remember, Ottowa, hassling wittnesses or potential wittnesses is a strict no-no in the real world!

you Momma is a big fat's ________
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2004, 11:34:00 PM »
You're a goddess, Ginger!
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