The humiliating seed!

[rossmddn]

i suppose i will tell some of my story here.. never knew big frank, but damn sorry he's gone somehow that affects me too. consider this in memoriam. i have believed for mANY YEARS THAT I WAS UNIQUELY VULNERABLE TO THE SEED. not so, i begin to see. it wasn't until i read a book on brainwashing that i began to see that my reaction to the seed wasn't character flaw in me, but rather a predictable response , physiologic, not mental.
my story such as it is, and incomplete . at age 13, i was lured by a corrupt family physician into a kind of cult.. 'primal therapy" see website janov, arthur.. that cult is based on the voluntary destruction of personality, which i can tell you  is exhausting work! then somehow , the seed got hold of me.. call to parent.. he'll be deadinsaneorinjail.. the familiar route(yeah pun intended) in any event thirty years later i begin to learn the extent of the damage, and that it wasn't my imagination. have been dx'd ptsd, as so many of you have been, and still astonished at the level of criminality and sheer malice involved.. hitler jugund indeed! somehow, oddly, so many who post here have retained their humanity in spite of it all.. as an aside, that gives me a foundation for my embrace of catholicism...(hey lady! i never said i was a GOOD catholic.. just that  i was one!) others in this forum have mentioned or alluded to psycho-physical symptom, and i wonder how many out there have suffered as have we. i see a consistent thread of ruined relationships, both personal and occupational , and social. i have lived in an adaptive way since then, have a few intruiging quirks,(nothing perrverse mind you, just things like an odd aversion to clocks, like that).. it oddly, also gives me the foundation for my conservatism. in that i believe that each of us is our own best judge, each of us in individual relationship to god , and that the highest value in society is individual well being, no man can be a responsible participant in society unless he is also free to reject it.. forgive the rant, one and all, (i just love diatribe and polemic)(it's a racial characteristic, i cain't hep it!) also too (lousiana vernacular) herein i've read that so many believe that art barker, et al,"had good intentions" or "meant well" god spare me the saints.. i don't buy it.. no mateer what one believes i think it incumbent "first do no harm" if to follow "good intentions requires lying, co-ercion, subornation of witnesses, perjury, planting evidence, day in and day out physical and mental brutality.. well i refuse to believe good or honest intention  to big frank and all the others
responses welcome.. to our tormentors many of us look for remorse but that may never be.. forgiveness is a double edged sword, you may have it, but only if you admit that you need it

[Anonymous]

I just don't understand how anyone can think the Seed or similar programs were beneficial. I really don't.  How can programs that use coersion, isolation, verbal abuse and identity tear down, and cultic practices be healthy?  How can programs be helpful if they are fueled by fear and self loathing?  especially when the kids that get ahead are the biggest bullies...  I just don't see it.  Are people who promote the program saying they needed all that cultic mind wash and entrenched humiliation and badgering to "get better."

[GregFL]

for the most part, yes they say that.  They needed it, or they deny it existed.

[Anonymous]

Maybe there should be no jails or mental hospitals either.  Let them all run free.   Legalize heroine while you are at it.  What about prostitution too?  They will all learn their lessons naturally.  No need to intervene.   Don't spank your kids either; it may leave deep psychological problems as well.   Viva violence and join more gangs.  Should I be red or blue???     :idea:

OK I agree the programs that are out there suck, but how can we restructure some to make a difference?  We need something without the abuse.

[Anonymous]

In response to the anon who said why don't we let them all run free... Well, the truth is, many of us in these programs should run free because there really wasn't much wrong with us to begin with.  I mean, I know I wasn't a druggie or criminal. And I know many of the others weren't either.  Some of us did need help.  I had very low self esteem and had been through some traumatic experiences. I also was bored at school and had a hard time focusing, but I wasn't "bad".  Believe me, I wanted to feel better... but being isolated in a situation where coersion, badgering, bullying, and humiliation reigned supreme was NOT the answer. Neither is living in some kind of program derived world, instead of the real world. And frankly, I don't know who the fuck could say it was.

Even if you were a delinquent. Especially so.

I am a teacher and I have a better success rate than my colleagues with "troubled" youths. Why? Because I look for the best in that person. I take the time to find out their gifts and interests. I treat them with respect and firmness, not disdain. Consequences are natural and logical... but I don't treat them like a shit person for getting a bad score. I don't coerce, badger, and humiliate. The ones who are most difficult to understand, I put more effort into getting to know, and most of the time, I find out there is so much more than what meets the eye, and other teachers are missing out.

[Anonymous]

Good for you.  How nice that you can be that way.   but you still did not answer the question.  What about the ones you can,t reach??

[Anonymous]

This is my attitude when I'm teaching. I shoot to reach them all! And of course, you can't... we're all human and fallible and have different journeys. But I shoot to be a posititve motivator 100%.  
I don't care as much as about the A's as I do about their ability to see what is special and good about themselves.

And I've been both a bad student and a great one. The teachers who believed in me when I was a bad student are the ones who planted the seed of promise in my own mind.  

All I'm saying is that kids who really do need help or programs are not gonna get it in a place where verbal abuse, coersion, bullying, humiliation are de rigeur, and lack of independent spirit and thought are suppressed.  Some just fuck up more, and others may be "scared straight" but that is not necessarily a whole, free thinking person.

There simply is no excuse for bad "therapeutic" practices to help fucked up kids.  

A lot of it just accept natural/logical consequences, stop enabling, be loving, and have boundaries.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Hey!  I get confused about this too.  I was gonna start a new thread on the $tr8 board but seein' as how ya'll  already done went and collected the firewood...mind if I join ya ??

The thing is...I was just thinking today about what a bad kid I actually was.  I was a true delinquent.  I was an arson by the age of 12.  Setting garages in my neighborhood on fire with my little brother.  I was a  vandal.  I spray-painted my whole neighborhood as a 14 year old punk.  I used to jump the barbed wire fence to steal the governments own spray paint form their supply depot and then run around the base at night gettin' high and taggin' all the buildings.  I stole. I thieved.   I couldn't be made to go to school.

I was an angry child.  I grew up in a military family.  My parents were extremely strict disciplinarians.  I was marshalled at every turn.  I was not allowed to choose my own path in life.  Everything that I expressed interest in was denied to me so I could become what my parents wanted me to be, instead of what I wanted to be.  As an example, when I told them I wanted to play the drums in 4th grade they insisted that I learn the saxophone instead.  They told me that you never hear of solo drummers performing in concert but saxophonists don't need any accompaniment so they can go solo.  I didn't care about that I just wanted to drum.  I now know of several drum/percussion ensembles that perform professionally.  My folks were completely wrong about that.  

Later in about 10th grade, just before I went into $tr8 I told them I wanted to sign up for Vo-tech to learn carpentry and masonary and the like.  They insisted that I was too smart  :roll:.  They wouldn't let me take the classes I wanted to take.  I never in my life wanted to go to college, but for some reason they made me take all these college prep type classes as if I didn't know what I really wanted to do or something so I was denied that opportunity as well.  I remember how my dad always used to admonish me: "Keep your options open, go to college"  But like I wrote above it's like they just never listened to me.  I never in my life had any intention of goin' to college.  My parents actually shut down all my options by insisting that I was going to college.  They preperaed me for a life i didn't want and denied me the tools that I really needed.  There is an old hebrew saying:  "He that does not teach his son a trade teaches him to be a thief".  I am not a thief, or an arson now-a-days but this is what happened.

These are just some examples of the trouble I've had with my folks.  There is a whole list of examples I could run through to give evidence of their lack of understanding me or even realizing who I am.   I think I turned into such an anti-authoritarian punk-ass rebel anarchist because I've had so little choice in my life.  Everything has been dictated to me.  I became a bad kid because my parents didn't treat me with respect.  Can you understand what I'm struggeling to say here ??

So I ended up on front row at $tr8 Inc by the time I was 16.  I spent 23 months in there.  Copped out 4 times and was eventually court-ordered and finally manipulated into graduating by the threat of serving time in the VA state penn in Richmond.  I came out of $tr8 way, way worse off than I was when I went in.

I don't even know if I've lost track of the topic here now or what, but I get confused about all this.  I think being incarcerated at $tr8 was the result of my parents extrememly poor parenting skills.

I'm not trying to relieve myself of all responsibility but I was the child, and the adults who were supposed to be raising me should've had way more respect for me than they did.

I don't know.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Fuck.  Yeah...I really do feel like they just completely sabotaged my life...Like I was born to the wrong parents.

[Anonymous]

It's difficult.. parenting. I'm the teacher who wrote before, and I'm certainly not a perfect parent.  But what I do strive to do is recognize my children's strengths, gifts, and likes and build on that.  I could care less if my sons are doctors or carpenters or candle stick makers.  I want them to be happy, self sufficient, and kind. And that's about it.  I am very involved as a parent but I'm not overly directive.

Many of us owe our time at the program in large part to very poor parenting.  My parenst never parented... they sent me to the progarm in hopes the program could do what they could not.

What I needed was a good mentor, an alternative school (I eventually found one myself), and help with depression/sleep disorder and processing some trauma.

[starry-eyed pirate]

...yeah...thanks...

I thought about this all day... while I went about my life.  I am a parent too, though only a single dad without custody, still, I think about it all quite a bit.  I like what you wrote earlier, about the way you approach your students.  I am very leary of the public school system, private too, for that matter.  But it's like anything else; in the midst of despair we find.  

...I can hardly address it without bein slightly drunk and havin' Average White Band on the turntable...

Parenting is difficult...still I am a parent now myself and I am not like my parents in the way that I teach.

I border on hate for my parents.  I fear I will not know freedom of mind until they are dead.  They have done everything to crush me.  I am compassionate toward them.

The last time my dad was in town we were sitting across the table from each other, with our family members around, in a restaraunt...staring at each other...I was burning hate with my eyes into him and he was staring back at me, in shame and disbelief.  He felt me and I came to...There were no words.

I hold my anger and I forgive them...but I am still crushed.

Thankyou...peace.

[GregFL]

the crux of this conversation is basically, what do you do with kids that wont close ranks and act antisocial or self destructive.

The answer is we dont know anything that  parenting cant and doesnt.  Tearing a kid down and rebuilding him in the image of a group, group leader, or corporate philosophy is obviously harmfull to a great percentage of the kids that have experienced it.  Also, the suicides, drug addiction, alcholosim, mental illness and PTSD, post program, is evidence of the failure of this approach.

If a kid is acting out, a parent should use every tool in his DIRECT intuitive power to figure out what is going on and try to address it.  Sometimes that doesnt even work.  Some kids have internal self destructive triggers, criminal intentions, and sociapathic personality traits.  You cannot zipededodah these away.

[Anonymous]

Legalize heroine while you are at it.  What about prostitution too?  

Actually, that would be a good start.  Do you really believe prohibition does anything else but add to the crime rate?   Ever hear of Al Capone?  The crime associated with those particular endeavors is due to the fact that it's illegal.  There would be no drug crime if drugs were legal.

They will all learn their lessons naturally.  No need to intervene.

That's more true than you'd like to believe.

 

Don't spank your kids either; it may leave deep psychological problems as well.  

I think I spanked my kids maybe twice in their lives.  There really isn't much of a need for it if you're a smart parent.

OK I agree the programs that are out there suck, but how can we restructure some to make a difference?  We need something without the abuse.

You can't.   You can't force change on someone without the damage.  Not possible.  The percentage of teens that actually need to be removed from the home is infantesimally small and those kids are severely emotionally or mentally disturbed and need real, professional treatment.

[Anonymous]

Rebellion and acting out are a part of growing up.  Sometimes it's THE most important part.  Parents start to freak when we realize that our kids are growing a mind of their own.  Until then it was easy for us to 'control' them (for lack of a better term).  When they start to think for themselves they question what they've been taught.  THey question and test everything.  One of the most important things I did when my oldest was behaving like a friggin' maniac was to no over-react.  It was hard, I was scared most of about 3 years, but with guidance (not control), patience, good friends (both hers and mine) and REAL conversations about drugs etc. (not the overblown hype and scare tactics used today) she came through it.  From what I've seen of my friends with kids, it's been pretty much the same experience.  The kids whom I've seen have real troubles are the ones whose parents are extrememly strict and controlling.  No, I"m not saying you let them 'run wild', but you do give them room to grow.  Sometimes that means they'll get hurt, it's part of the process.

[starry-eyed pirate]

...yeah...thanks...

I thought about this all day... while I went about my life.  I am a parent too, though only a single dad without custody, still, I think about it all quite a bit.  I like what you wrote earlier, about the way you approach your students.  I am very leary of the public school system, private too, for that matter.  But it's like anything else; in the midst of despair we find.  

...I can hardly address it without bein slightly drunk and havin' Average White Band on the turntable...

Parenting is difficult...still I am a parent now myself and I am not like my parents in the way that I teach.

I border on hate for my parents.  I fear I will not know freedom of mind until they are dead.  They have done everything to crush me.  I am compassionate toward them.

The last time my dad was in town we were sitting across the table from each other, with our family members around, in a restaraunt...staring at each other...I was burning hate with my eyes into him and he was staring back at me, in shame and disbelief.  He felt me and I came to...There were no words.

I hold my anger and I forgive them...but I am still crushed.

Thankyou...peace.

Man that is kinda a crazy post...I been thinkin on this ever since I wrote about my burnin hate for my dad.  As I thought about it more and more I began to think it wasn't so much hate as just searin desire for understanding.  I mean there was no fuckin around about it.  I looked way into him for a good long while.  I lost track of the time.  I lost track of myself.  When I came to, I noticed him lookin at me, real composed like.  I felt like I had been out of my body somewhere.