facts on ALA

[Antigen]

On 2004-04-09 08:14:00, Anonymous wrote:


As for Ginger's advice, Its for the most part good advice. My only disscent would be that such advice may feed your concerns that the girl is being mistreated. If so, then she has done you a disservice, as that isn't something you need to worry about.



Ginger is a survivor of the most horrid and abusive situation I have ever herd tell of, apart from true prisoner of war stories.

It colors her world, as it naturally would for anyone. Its understandable.

Karen, you are far from qualified to psychoanalyse me.

When I was in Straight, I got sat on exactly once in two years and that wasn't anywhere near my worst day. I stepped in time, inside the lines consistently from day one and avoided getting abused, aside from the lack of sleep.

The next day, when my dad apparently bought the line that I'd violently attacked someone and that had been how I got a black eye; the day I finally accepted that none of my brothers or sisters were going to write or visit me (they could have, all but one were Seed graduates); the day I finally gave in and decided to "get honest" and denounce myself at open meeting as a druggie in need of treatment, knowing full well it was a lie. Those were the bad days. Those were they days I cried real tears and had to come up with something real quick to explain it. No way was I about to trust those people w/ anyting as personal as the real reasons for my sadness.

Once you are able to determine she is safe; you should leave her alone. Thats my opinion, for what ever little bit its worth.

Ya' know, Karen, you could clear this up right quick. Just put a phone in Amanda's hand, make sure she's got the phone number and let her call her aunt and brother and tell them, without anyone listening in, how much she wants them to leave her alone.

As for her brother - I wonder if there is an impartial third party whom he could have contact threw? Would you consint to that?  

It *seems* as if her family's concern revolves around you - if the boy could call from somewhere else; or even visit with someone else  maybe. . .

Would you consint to that?"

Karen, Karen, Karen! Are you trolling for a new intake? I may be mistaken, but I think this one's just a little to smart for that schtick.

Oh, and btw, in case no one else noticed, it was the anon poster who may or may not be Karen who brought Paige's name into this and it was Craig Rogers who put Amanda's name out on the net.

So Karen, will you answer any of the questions about the ALA search team? What happened to what you and Craig were saying not long ago about kids being able to just walk away? Was that a lie?

Necessity never made a good bargain
--Benjamin Franklin Apr. 1734

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous

[Antigen]

On 2004-04-09 10:00:00, Deborah wrote:

I could be wrong, but I didn't get that Paige's main concern is for Amanda's "safety"- being killed or maimed? THAT is not the issue.

Some have suggested that I'm a bit too generous or gullible in my assessment on the topic of motive, but I maintain that the most compelling motive for Program proponants is not money or legal liability, it's religious zealotry. This holds true for my opinion of Art Barker, who was an avowed atheist, and for the Straight, Inc. ppl, who were not advocating a Christian type religion so much as a rather radical philosophy wrt drugs.

I think that Karen and Craig and all these other people litterally believe, as much as they believe the sky is blue, that they are saving these kids from certain eternal damnation in a litteral Hell that is geographically located somewhere under the crust of the Earth. Believing that (as failure to do so results in damnation), they also believe that their cause places them above the law and reason of mere mortals.

What they can't explain, though, is why God has chosen them to deliver a message to Paige to stay away. Doesn't God have Paige's email address?  :roll:

She may not be successful due to the ignorant people that make final decisions. But, I appreciate and admire her efforts. And as much as you program supporters want to believe otherwise, isolating someone from family, friends, society is more HURTFUL than useful and should be a last resort for seriously deranged people who have lost their grip on reality, and then only until their rationale has been restored.

The opra ain't over till the fat lady sings! I don't know much about ALA except for what they state in their website, what proponants say about themselves and how they go about saying it. I honestly don't have any reason to believe that this kid is going to sustain long-term damage (like the nerve damage many former Straight clients attribute to prolonged sleep deprivation) I sincerely hope not, anyway.

But the girl is almost 17. She'll be an adult or make an escape or be granted a favorable court ruling or just play along and graduate. I have a feeling her brother and aunt are in it for the long haul and will be there for her. I'm not so worried about Amanda as I am about some other kids.

BTW, anybody know if PURE refers to ALA? Anybody?

The most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of
knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness.

--Thomas Jefferson

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous

[Paige]

I know for a fact that Amanda is not allowed to contact anyone except her parents. Recently I was told by one of the grandmothers that she was given the go ahead to be able to email Amanda and that Amanda's brother could send an email through the grandmother but that is the only contact that any of the family will have. the Great Grandmother can not contact her, The Great Aunt and Uncle may not contact her. Amanda's fathers own parents are not allowed to contact her and none of her friends are allowed to contact her. The Student Manual on the ALA website is very specific that the child will have to earn the privilege to have contact with the parents and only the parents and that is only with approval from ALA. I will state again for those at
ALA who do not seem to understand that I have no fight with you.  I am sorry if you are offended that I want to know where my sons sister is and how she. I am sorry if you do not understand that her extended family and friends are worried about her.

Yes, I am in this for the long haul.

I would be more than happy to take a trip to Mexico to see where she is and take her brother to see her. They can be visits in full view of an attendant of ALA. There is nothing to fear from me. We won't leave the facility. I find it amusing that they would be so afraid of myself and a 14 year old boy.

I am not afraid that she is in danger of abuse. She has been removed from her family against her will by parents who are supposed to love her. And this is for her own good?? Explain how keeping her from her Great Grandmother or her brother(who is an honour student and a boy scout)or any other family members - is good for her?

[Anonymous]

Karen, you are far from qualified to psychoanalyse me.

I wasn't trying to. Sorry if it came across that way. I was only trying to explain the History behind the prevailing point of view. Would you disagree that your experience in Straight inc colors your point of view?
I've been trying to think of an analogy that might fit. I think its kinda like this: Say you have been bitten by a Chow Chow. You know many others who have also been bitten and even mauled by Chow Chows. You would tend to view all Chow Chows as dangerous dogs; altho you know there are some good ones. The problem is further complicated by the fact Chow Chows are so hard to read. None of the familiar signels are available; so you must assume they are all dangerous.
There are a lot of dangerous programs. A lot of people here have found this out first hand. Even if you know there are some good programs; your going to tend to view them all as dangerous; And especially so, as its so hard to tell from the outside which is which.
Paige writes:
"I would be more than happy to take a trip to Mexico to see where she is and take her brother to see her. They can be visits in full view of an attendant of ALA. There is nothing to fear from me. We won't leave the facility. I find it amusing that they would be so afraid of myself and a 14 year old boy. "

I expected you'd say something along these lines, b/c you know this won't fly. For whatever reason, Amanda's parents don't want you anywhere near their daughter, and more and more I'm beginning to understand. If you are really so concerned for the siblings, then you should be able to set your own ego aside and let the boy enjoy a visit with his sister separate and apart from you.  What I asked was, can you do that? Your answer is no. So, as far as I'm concerned, you have proven yourself more interested in stirring up turmoil and strife, than in the welfare of the two kids. I am coming to feel you have no genuine concern for Amanda; but rather are enjoying the opportunity to cause trouble for this family.

Back to Ginger:
"I think that Karen and Craig and all these other people litterally believe, as much as they believe the sky is blue, that they are saving these kids from certain eternal damnation in a litteral Hell that is geographically located somewhere under the crust of the Earth. Believing that (as failure to do so results in damnation), they also believe that their cause places them above the law and reason of mere mortals.
What they can't explain, though, is why God has chosen them to deliver a message to Paige to stay away. Doesn't God have Paige's email address?"

You enjoy poking fun, don't you? None of this is part of my creed. I do believe in Hell; but my notion of Hell comes from the Bible rather than comic books; and so I don't think we are all walking around on it's roof. And BTW - failing to believe any of the things you mention have nothing to do with Salvation. There are many area's of debate and disagrement that have nothing what so ever to do with salvation.
And, I never said or implied I thought God sent me to give Paige or anyone any kind of message. That would be claiming the gift of Prophecy; and I have not been so blessed. I do have an opinion of my own, and that?s exactly how I put it. As for God having her email address; oh yes, I'm sure He does. He knows how many hairs are on her head and the deepest secrets of her heart. He may well be trying to tell her something - but will she listen?  
"BTW, anybody know if PURE refers to ALA? Anybody?"
No, they don't. There is a difference of opinion on certain ethical questions.

"Ya' know, Karen, you could clear this up right quick."
No I can't. I have no say in this matter at all, and remember, her parents don't want her talking to Paige, and that is, for now, their right to deicide.
Right or wrong, for what ever reason (which I maintain *might* be very good) they don't want her messing with their daughter.

I do hope she and her brother can get together soon, somehow. I empathize  with these kids on this issue. At Amanda's age, I lost my brother who was her brothers age. That was a very long time ago, and I still miss him. He would have been 42 this week if he hadn't been killed. I often wonder how different my life might be, had he not died; What kind of wife might he have married; would I have nieces and nephews? Would we still be close, or seeing each other once a year? Any way, For this reason, I think I am more sensitive to sibling issues than average; and the present situation does distress me.  

"Karen, Karen, Karen! Are you trolling for a new intake? I may be mistaken, but I think this one's just a little to smart for that schtick."
No Ginger - hadn't entered my mind. I am frankly surprised you would so accuse me. I have never thought or behaved like that and don't deserve such an accuasation.  
Paige, as the boy's Mom, could allow him to visit with someone else, with no fear of his being , what? Held? I mean, is that what you think?  No one but Paige could send him to ALA as a student - do you really think I am trying to advocate that? No Ginger, I'm not quit that dence even if I can't spell.

[Anonymous]

Angry face anon, I do indeed feel if they want Me to forgive them; they should ask Me; otherwise, I'm under no obligation to do so; tho I may, if I want, I am not obligated to.
If they want God's forgivness, then they need to ask Him. I have nothing to do with this, and neither does anyone else. Its a private matter between an indivigual and God.
I believe I could back this up with scripture; but I don't want to go thumping on The Book again.
Might stir up Turd and Butcher.

[Anonymous]

Hmmmm ... this is getting interesting.

 :smokin:

-----------------------------------------------

Critical examination of the lives and beliefs of gurus demonstrates that our psychiatric labels and our conceptions of what is or is not mental illness are woefully inadequate.  How, for example, does one distinguish an unorthodox or bizarre faith from delusion? ...  

Gurus are isolated people, dependent upon their disciples, with no possibility of being disciplined by a Church or criticized by contemporaries.  They are above the law.  The guru usurps the place of God.  Whether gurus have suffered from manic-depressive illness, schizophrenia, or any other form of recognized, diagnosable mental illness is interesting but ultimately unimportant.  What distinguishes gurus from more orthodox teachers is not their manic-depressive mood swings, not their thought disorders, not their delusional beliefs, not their hallucinatory visions, not their mystical states of ectasy; it is their narcissism.

- Anthony Storr,
Feet of Clay

[Paige]

All of you seem to be so focussed on me.

We would be satisfied for the time being if her aunt and uncle or her grandparents the C's could go visit with her.  If my son goes to Mexico to visit with his sister I am going to be the one to take him there because I am his parent and I would not put my son through that by himself. Apparently you did not read my statement - I don't have to visit with her but I do want to be within eye sight of the two of them. I don't have to speak to her but her brother does. Is that too much to ask for both of the children's sake? Compromise? One ALA attendant present and me present while the children visit. Neither of the viewers to talk to the children? You would be surprised at how this one action may calm the waters.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-04-09 12:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Karen, I didn't see you complaining about F-13 when he was posting his filthy comments about Carey Bock, but then again, you have admitted calling her names yourself (e.g. WWASPS WHORE),
so I guess exceptions can be made, is that it?



 :smokin: "

Karen, where is your response to this question, I must have missed it.

 :smokin:

[Anonymous]

Ginger Writes:

"BTW, anybody know if PURE refers to ALA? Anybody?"

Karen Replies:

"No, they don't. There is a difference of opinion on certain ethical questions"

-----------------

Ethical?  Like what?

[spots]

Paige, I am an old-timer here, and I have had a similar experience to what you are now going through.  FWIW, we now have our grandaughter living with us, after 10 months of desperate attempts to wrest her from WWASPS in Mexico, which her mother thought was just dandy, and then 3 months at her home, being a virtual prisoner on lockdown in her bedroom out back.

Anyway, I certainly know how you feel, probably more so than the parents who now recognize their wrong-ness in sending their kids off or the survivors who came through battered and now have a decent life.  The tremendous feeling of helplessness...moved me to go to therapy in the midst of our struggle (and Fornits was a good therapy for me also).

This whole thing with Karen's ranting about Amanda's "privacy" is a lot of what I fought when Carey Bock kept moving the discussion from "Don't send your kids to WWASPS" to "this ed consultant is worse than any behavioral modification facility you can imagine"...which is ludicrous and just diluted efforts to expose the truth behind the marketing of this Evil Empire.

I am positive that isolation from her *greater* world is a very bad thing.  Somehow it seems politically correct to dance around this thing about "her parents know what is right for her", severely limiting her family relationships,  without coming right out and saying "bullshit, they don't know what is right and just being parents obviously hasn't given them that inate ability."

PARENTS DON'T ALWAYS DO THE RIGHT THING, AND THE LAW SHOULD STEP IN IF THEY ARE DOING THE WRONG THING FOR THEIR CHILDREN.  TALK TO YOUR ADOPTING JUDGE AND SEE IF HE DOESN'T AGREE THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE IGNORED HIS SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS UPON WHICH HE BASED HIS GRANTING OF ADOPTION FOR AMANDA.

[Paige]

Hi Spots, Thanks for your post - I have a meeting with the Judges assistant next week. He already knows some of the situation but needs to be brought up to speed. I have a feeling he will not be happy with this. The biggest problem is that we did not have any visitation written into the papers but it is documented in the notes of the court. So we shall see. However it could take quite awhile to get it into the court system, but certainly something worth pursuing.

[Anonymous]

Spots makes some good points, but I think it is worth noting the contribution Bock made to showing a side of the industry few parents know much about: the sales and marketing of programs and schools for so-called struggling teens. It's a virtual free-for-all, no checks and balances in place.  Buyers should definitly beware.

Second, Amanda is 17, she could petition the court for emancipation or just wait until she turns 18 and check herself out the program and go live with her brother and Paige.

In the meantime, I see no harm in allowing her brother or any other family member to keep in touch with this girl, assuming such communication is not monitored or censored, except for contraband material which does not seem to be an issue here. However, it appears gaining the trust and confidence of the parents is an issue and I would strongly urge all parties involved to seek a reasonable compromise.  

Think of what Amanda has to gain, not lose, by knowing people love and care about her and want to keep in touch with her.  I would imagine any kid would have a tough time with abandonment issues (real or imagined) but it has to be even harder for adopted kids.  Why is nobody talking about THIS issue?  

Bottom line is what's best for Amanda is to let her have some input (big gasp) on this issue instead of treating her like she "isn't even in the room".  She is not an infant still in diapers, for pete's sake.

[Anonymous]

Deb writes:
"You're not attempting to broker, but you need a "starting point". Contradictory. Either you're brokering an agreement or not. I think you would like to convince Paige to back off. Why are you negotiating on a public forum? Particularly if you are not in a position to make decisions."

I know it sounds contridictory; and in fact is; but my thinking was, maybe, if I had a place to start, something to work with; I could bring up the possibilty of brokering enough of a truce to let the kids visit.  
Why a public forum? B/c Paige refusses to call and talk with me as has been offered. When she turned up here, I thought maybe if we had some dialog, she might dicide to call. No skin off my nose if she'd rather not.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-04-09 21:18:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2004-04-09 12:39:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Karen, I didn't see you complaining about F-13 when he was posting his filthy comments about Carey Bock, but then again, you have admitted calling her names yourself (e.g. WWASPS WHORE),

so I guess exceptions can be made, is that it?





 :smokin: "

Karen, where is your response to this question, I must have missed it.



 :smokin:







"

I did miss it.
F-13 didn't threaten to slice her up or hack her to peices; nor did he make obscene comments involving God.
Makes all the difference to me.

[Paige]

Karen,
I have not refused to talk with you. I am doing so now. and I have chosen the public forum for one very good reason. Witnesses. I'm not sayin that you are not trustworthy but I have found it safest in highly stressed situations such as this to make sure there are witnesses.

So as to your most gracious offer of speaking with me at any time - we are doing so and I appreciate it. Though I find it interesting that you still won't sign on with your name and we all know who you are!

By the way you were the one who put my name up on this forum first but I don't mind, I have nothing to hide.

Is your son Nate working at the Mexico facility?