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[Antigen]

Lady, I lived it! As a child, as a teenager, as a young adult faced w/ the choice of going along w/ the (soul crushing, demoralizing) Program or leave my family.

How many times have I seen Program parents actually use the words "Well, he/she needed a good brainwashing!" when faced w/ undenyable evidence of psychological abuse? or "a little ass kicking" when we're talking about physical abuse?

Here's a good one:

[After describing OP for months at a stretch]

"I say to the parents,' says Kay, leaning back in his office seat. 'The bottom line is, what's the end result you want? Getting there may be ugly, but at least with us you're going to get there.'"

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine ... 72,00.html

These are the conditions under which many of the kids who've died in bootcamps and BM schools have seen their final day. And this is the attitude of 'leaders' in the troubled parent industry toward this very dangerous type of 'intervention'. Even when one of them dies, this is still their cockey attitude.

[Carey]

Lady, you are applying your experience in the program you were in to all programs.  That can not be done.  Second your new quote from Kay is still not saying the same thing as your original quote.  I once again, unfortunately, can see some truth in this new quote  "I say to the parents,' says Kay, leaning back in his office seat. 'The bottom line is, what's the end result you want? Getting there may be ugly, but at least with us you're going to get there.'

Do I condone abuse no, do I beleive in programs that restrict communication no, do I beleive in locking kids up when they have not been areested, convicted of a crime and gone through due process, no.

However, I have seen some of these kids pointing the finger lie and I have seen some of these parents who are pointing the fingers lie.  I think the truth "lies" somewhere inbetween.

[Antigen]

On 2004-03-20 06:48:00, Carey wrote:

"Lady, you are applying your experience in the program you were in to all programs. That can not be done.  

Yes I can. Carey, I'm hearing the same stories from kids who weren't even born yet when my older brothers and sister went through the Seed. And I'm hearing the same dumb excuses from Ken Kay, Narvin Lichfield and apologists for Bethel School and other of these places that I heard come right out of Art Barker's and my mother's mouths all those years ago.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and smells like a duck, it might be a duck.

Second your new quote from Kay is still not saying the same thing as your original quote.  I once again, unfortunately, can see some truth in this new quote  "I say to the parents,' says Kay, leaning back in his office seat. 'The bottom line is, what's the end result you want? Getting there may be ugly, but at least with us you're going to get there.'



Do I condone abuse no, do I beleive in programs that restrict communication no, do I beleive in locking kids up when they have not been areested, convicted of a crime and gone through due process, no.



However, I have seen some of these kids pointing the finger lie and I have seen some of these parents who are pointing the fingers lie.  I think the truth "lies" somewhere inbetween."

Yeah, no kidding! The trouble here is that, like other industries, this one is just lousey with people. People are flawed and some of them make shit up. But that doesn't mean that everything they're saying is untrue.

Your boys, aparently, had enough restraint and forethought to not respond violently to their treatment at Dundee. Kudos to them. So did I. Even after two years of it. But not all kids have that kind of restraint.

Bottom line; do you think Kay and other 'leaders' in the troubled parent industry are remourseful for all these kids who have died as a result of Program treatment methods? Do you think they will ever accept responsibility for the results of their actions? Do you think that the next time a kid injurs or kills somebody during an escape that they'll suddenly have a change of heart and realize that this is to be expected when you push young people to and beyond their limits? Or do you suppose they'll keep on towing the same line and blame it on the kids?

Ken keeps promising to 'provide' kids as witnesses to his claim that no abuse ever goes on in WWASP facilities. I think he believes what he says. Really, I do. He's not lying, exactly. He just doesn't view what he and his employees and followers do as abusive. Neither did I. Even when I was the one at the bottom of the pile for refusing to apologize to Group for having tried to run away. I thought I deserved it because I could have just said what they told me to say and not gotten sat on.

The trouble here is that people involved in the TOUGHLOVE hategroup refuse to even acknowledge the harm their cherished Program has done to people over the years. We try to tell them, they just call us bitter druggies. I shit you not, while I was out of town, Bill got a series of phone calls from one of these places--it was a father/son team--who insisted that Fornits is a druggie site and all the people posting less than complimentary things about their (recently closed) school were druggies too.

They believe it. Doesn't mean it's true.

Either cocaine and marijuana are terribly dangerous substances, and breaking the law by consuming them is a major offense that should be severely punished, or these are minor, personal matters that do not really count in the big picture of a man's life. If the latter is the case, then the rationale for a bloody, costly and futile war against drugs simply disappears.
--Jorge G. Castaneda, Newsweek International, September 6, 1999

[Kiwi]

On 2004-03-19 15:28:00, Antigen wrote:

On 2004-03-19 11:38:00, Anonymous wrote:


Source:

http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... rate.shtml



----------------------------------------------

Temporary lapse of insanity, maybe? Sudden attack of scrupples?

Temporary removal of an incentive to lie.

[Anonymous]

It would be interesting to know if either were taking or had recently taken SSRIs or other psych drugs.

This from drugawareness.org:
Today the LA TIMES ran a large article discussing the violence associated with the SSRIs. Note this statement from the article:

"And GlaxoSmithKline, during clinical tests on children with obsessive-compulsive disorder or depression, found that the percentage of children taking Paxil who became hostile â?? which was defined as everything from angry thoughts to violent acts â?? ranged from 6.3% to 9.2%. For those taking the placebo, the range was zero to 1%, according to published records."

This is critical information that needs to get out. Once again I would encourage you to get this information to your local papers, BUT once again I stress the urgency of including what this article left out:

#1  The warning that abrupt or rapid withdrawal (which most doctors continue to do) is VERY dangerous and can lead to even more serious problems as the patient can experience seizures, heart attack, suicidal or homicidal ideation along with psychosis, severe flu-like symptoms, electric shocks, etc. from coming down too rapidly. It is not worth taking the chance.

#2  Too many patients on these drugs will sit back and say, "Oh, those people were that way before the drug. The drug had nothing to do with their behavior and I am not that kind of person."

But they need to understand that this is a drug reaction the patient has no control over. As I explain in detail in my book about SSRIs, Prozac: Panacea or Pandora? - Our Serotonin Nightmare, when one reaches a point where the REM sleep has been repressed for long enough the body and brain WILL force one into REM while awake to compensate.

Add to that this: The impairment produced by the drugs of one's ability to metabolize serotonin produces nightmares. Then you, in that REM state -the dream state, begin act out that nightmare.

The only control one has over this type of response is whether or not he chooses to take the drug that produces the nightmares and represses REM leading to this end result.

We now know that 80% of the cases being diagnosed with this disorder (RBD) are on SSRIs. Another 6% are on the older antidepressants.

#3  Before these drugs hit the market this sleepwalk nightmare known as RBD was known as a "drug withdrawal state." This will give you some idea of why it is so important to avoid serious withdrawal from an SSRI antidepressant. I cannot tell you how often I hear from people that they have tried and tried to come off these drugs before, but after getting my tape on withdrawal they were FINALLY able to come off without serious problems and make it off and get well.

If 80% of the patients being diagnosed with this horrible sleepwalk state in which the large majority hurt themselves or someone else, how many more will experience RBD in withdrawal from SSRIs? It is clear to me that we can expect a
high rate.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, with all of this information coming out about the dangers of SSRIs, get this warning to people everywhere about the dangerous withdrawal! We have far too many horrible cases coming in already without having the numbers absolutely skyrocket due to the lack of warning about withdrawal -
especially with children.

Ann Blake Tracy, PhD

Executive Director, International Coalition For Drug Awareness
Author: Prozac: Panacea or Pandora? - Our Serotonin Nightmare
& audio tape or CD on safe withdrawal: "Help! I Can't Get Off My Antidepressant!"

[Anonymous]

There are so many questions ?

Was Anson mentally handi-cap

I think the Facility and the State should be sued by the Counslers family and by the two boys families.

What is the relationship between the Ah Quins that own the Liahona facility and Adam Ah Quin

Who is Max Ah Quin ?

What is the Teen Help Model ?

[Anonymous]

All the parents should be wondering how they ended up placing their child in a program that is alleged to have been in violation of at least 3 DHS licensing rules.  Were they referred by an educational consultant?  Independent referral agent (who gets paid by programs)? Word-of-Mouth support groups?  HOW??  

 :roll:

[Anonymous]

International Coalition for Drug Awareness is a scientology front group:

http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/cult-front ... latest.htm

The bottom line on antidepressants is that both suicide and violent crime ARE DOWN DRAMATICALLY DURING THE PERIOD THAT THEY BECAME WIDELY USED.

It's almost certainly the case that some people do have terrible reactions to these drugs-- which is why the FDA is issuing this warning-- but to claim that the bad reactions are the majority is simply to defy the evidence.

[Anonymous]

Adam AhQuin, the owner and director of this now-closed group home is 24 years old.  The victim, Anson Arnett, was 31 years old.  How old were the other staff members and what was their background
and training?  

 ::

[Anonymous]

hi this is a pretty crazy subject. im just following along but u said sean graham didnt intend to kill that guy and that he only hit him once. how cum they had to hit him atall? they must have planned on escaping right since u had  talked to sean before they escaped and he was desparate to get back to you (i know how that is) they had a bat and were going to get away no matter what, right? it sucks that that guy had to die just so sean and jesse could get away. do you think jesse will be in longer than sean? sorry your boyfriends in jail right now that must suck since you and him were so close for so many years. :sad:

[Anonymous]

Anson was not "mentally handi-cap" whatever that means. He graduated from high school with honors, had a college degree, had a Utah state teaching certificate and was an excellent artist and teacher. In addition, he had criminal background checks through the state of Utah as a result of having a teaching certificate. He worked for other like treatment facilities throughout the state and he was there to help those kids. He was kind, patient, gentle, and was the anti-thesis of the kids who killed him.  :evil:

[Anonymous]

On 2004-03-27 20:04:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Anson was not "mentally handi-cap" whatever that means. He graduated from high school with honors, had a college degree, had a Utah state teaching certificate and was an excellent artist and teacher. In addition, he had criminal background checks through the state of Utah as a result of having a teaching certificate. He worked for other like treatment facilities throughout the state and he was there to help those kids. He was kind, patient, gentle, and was the anti-thesis of the kids who killed him.  :evil:  "

Clearly, there is a reason why the state of Utah mandates licensed facilities to have two, not one, staff member on duty at all times.  Why Anson was apparently working alone, I do not know, but I feel terrible about the loss of this young, apparently very gifted and dedicated young man.  God Bless Anson, his family and friends, and also the 2 boys and their family and friends.  This is a horrific tragedy that has touched many lives and my heart goes out to everyone.  

 :cry:

[Anonymous]

Why are the boys the only ones facing CRIMINAL charges in light of the violation of DHS rules by the program owner and/or operators? Anson should not have been working alone according to Utah state law.  I do not get this at all.

 :eek:

[Anonymous]

How many people, counselors, youths have to die before we (society) wake up and DO something?
What is the answer?
All I know is that someone who was and still is very dear to so many, is dead.  FACT!  
Murdered?  The justice system will decide.  The "alleged" killers, tried as adults, worthy of the death penalty or life in prison?  How can they possibly benefit from either?  
"An eye for an eye makes the world blind".  Ghandi
What, if any, benefits were the youths receiving in this "subtance abuse treatment center"?
If you were the family members of Anson where would your concerns lie right now?  If you were the family members of the alleged killers where would your concerns lie right now?
This is fact: The Ah Quins are attempting to obtain a license to open/re-open another facility in Cedar City.  I am speechless!  A man has been KILLED, his life is OVER and the owners of the facility are getting "back in business".  Big issue due to the fact that the facility where this tragedy occurred was in violation of state laws.  Do I trust the Ah Quins can operate a lawful facility now?      
Anson HAD rights, Jesse and Sean still HAVE rights, what about the rights of the community to feel safe, to assume rules are being followed and that these facilities exist to BENEFIT the youths placed in these facilities?
So many questions, so few answers.  So much speculation, so few facts.  
Hard core facts: rules put into place to protect Anson and the youths were violated. Anson is DEAD, the youths accused of the crime await their fate.  Anson is DEAD.  What does that mean to the youths?  What does that mean to anyone?  Family members and friends VALUED Anson's life, who values Jesse and Seans' lives?  Whose lives do the Ah Quins' value, if any?

[Anonymous]

On 2004-03-27 23:20:00, Anonymous wrote:

"How many people, counselors, youths have to die before we (society) wake up and DO something?

What is the answer?

All I know is that someone who was and still is very dear to so many, is dead.  FACT!  

Murdered?  The justice system will decide.  The "alleged" killers, tried as adults, worthy of the death penalty or life in prison?  How can they possibly benefit from either?  

"An eye for an eye makes the world blind".  Ghandi

What, if any, benefits were the youths receiving in this "subtance abuse treatment center"?

If you were the family members of Anson where would your concerns lie right now?  If you were the family members of the alleged killers where would your concerns lie right now?

This is fact: The Ah Quins are attempting to obtain a license to open/re-open another facility in Cedar City.  I am speechless!  A man has been KILLED, his life is OVER and the owners of the facility are getting "back in business".  Big issue due to the fact that the facility where this tragedy occurred was in violation of state laws.  Do I trust the Ah Quins can operate a lawful facility now?      

Anson HAD rights, Jesse and Sean still HAVE rights, what about the rights of the community to feel safe, to assume rules are being followed and that these facilities exist to BENEFIT the youths placed in these facilities?

So many questions, so few answers.  So much speculation, so few facts.  

Hard core facts: rules put into place to protect Anson and the youths were violated. Anson is DEAD, the youths accused of the crime await their fate.  Anson is DEAD.  What does that mean to the youths?  What does that mean to anyone?  Family members and friends VALUED Anson's life, who values Jesse and Seans' lives?  Whose lives do the Ah Quins' value, if any?  

   

"

Nobody should give these guys a second chance to run a program.  Not with the kind of violations they are alleged to have committed.  Makes no sense.  Cedar City residents should do what they have to do to keep these programs out of their community b/c if the programs aren't going to follow basic rules, there will only be more tragedy. Don't let Anson die in vain like so many teens have.  Anson deserves to be remembered for his accomplishments and commitment to his work.  Make the programs pay dearly for disobeying rules instead of giving 'em a small fine or slap on the wrist.  This is serious business.