Author Topic: My Parents  (Read 12832 times)

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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2002, 05:30:00 PM »
Glad things are going well for you Thom, and welcome to this forum. Your opinions and comments are welcome and appreciated here.
I understand that some people do need help with addiction problems, and perhaps later in life you were one  of them, But what the hell purpose did going to to Seed for 4 years as an adolescent when you had no substance abuse problem serve?
Also, maybe if Ginger does/did have an anger problem, it resulted in being rejected by her family by not embracing the cultism of the seed/straight that was so ingrained in everything you people did and said. Perhaps she just wants to be accepted by her siblings and parents for whom she is, which is incidentally, a brilliant webmistress and well respected researcher/writer, and a very family oriented homebody.
I don't know, and can't really say, only can comment that you are perhaps one of hundreds of family's I know whom were torn apart by the Seed, and that DECADES later, still haven't completely healed the division.  That is unfortunate.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2002, 07:47:00 PM »
"The seeds of recovery were planted. I added the fertilizer later. That's where they came up with the name, catchy, eh?"

Thom, you really are welcome here, but....YECHH!!!! That is so obnoxious it is almost rancid.

And how do you know, from my one posting, and having never met me, that I had no substance abuse problem as an adolescent?
Well Thom, from your post, I made an assumption that you started drinking etc, after you left the Seed. If I am wrong, I certaintly stand corrected. No one is trying to diagnose you, calm down a little.
But all inference was made by you that your problems occured later in life after graduating the Seed, which incidentially, is VERY common.

" OK, now I really feel welcomed and appreciated, thanks. I haven't felt this welcomed since the last time I tried to visit Ginger......
You are welcome here irrespective of differences in views. Again, Thom, how unfortunate that this issue still divides your family to such a great extent 20 years later.
 "You seem to know alot about my family for someone who knows nothing about my family. Please allow me to enlighten you a bit...... FYI,  I was the only 'Seed Freak' in the brood.... 3 others attended, but were never really into it, as I recall. When Ginger left (escaped)....... against the wishes of both of our parents.  We have all tried to bond with her.... her siblings didn't do anything to her, yet, we are blessed with the honor of feeling the full force..... We were not torn apart by The Seed If anything, it slowed some of us down a bit, so we could make it to adult-hood without suffering too much brain damage. Yes, Virginia, there really was a drug abuse problem in our family.
Well Thom, I hav spent hours talking with Ginger, and your reality is different from your sisters. You call her all kinds of names in this post like paranoid, etc., and seem to refuse to acknowledge that she may have been harmed by her experience. I think perhaps if you put the gauntlet down, tried to UNDERSTAND what she went thru, how whe processed HER experience, and dropped the defense, maybe you guys could heal. Than again, unfortunately, Maybe not.You seem to also have retained some of that confrontational style of communication so prevalent in that nuthouse down on 84th st.
Thom, I wish you nothing but the best. No one is trying to diagnose you, and I am not challenging your assertion that the Seed somehow was good for you, in spite of your self admittance that after graduating you became an alchoholic,a gambler and whatever else.  If that is how you wished to spend your childhood, motivating, singing zippydedodah, staying up all night, eating P&J, sitting in a 100 degree wearhouse and hanging around Artie & Co, and watching young people's will break under the weight of "Treatment", than more power to you, Thom.
 
Final thought, some people go thru similar things and view the outcome and experience far differently.  I am willing to start communicating with you on that premise. Try it with you sister.
Thom, I look forward to your future posts and hope that they are in the spirit of good communication. I will try also.
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Offline Scott Free

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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2002, 12:04:00 AM »
Thom - After reading that lengthy diatribe, I have come to the conclusion that if your sister talks to you at all these days, you should get down on your knees and thank your God you've GOT a sister like her.

I wish I did.
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Offline marcwordsmith

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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2002, 01:38:00 AM »
Thom, I remember, in high school, a year or two after the Seed, some of the other former Seedlings said things like what you said. "Well, it just kept me from falling on my ass; that's all." This they said when they were smoking weed again. And they also seemed to feel that it had been no big deal.

So to me it's still a mystery. There are so few ex-Seedlings on this site; it would be very interesting for me to understand what a wide range of others' experiences were truly like, for them. My own experience, as I have shared, was awful, and I am very grateful to Ginger for providing this space. But I'll acknowledge that I learned a thing or two in the Seed, perhaps indirectly . . . such as the price you pay for not being true to yourself. (Or for being forced to be untrue to yourself . . . which in later years, I didn't ever let happen again.) And I'll also acknowledge that I was doing some things at age 14 that were probably not particularly wise (skipping school, smoking dope, etc.), though it must also be said that I was one of those kids who did A LOT MORE drugs once I got out of the Seed, and went through a terribly self-destructive, self-loathing period for some years. Yet, in an odd way, I wouldn't trade the experience now, because I'm happy with who I am and where I'm at today, and if what I've been through brought me here, then I'm grateful for all of it, and that's the bottom line.

I truly do hope you post again, Thom, and I also hope that you and your sister find some way to appreciate each other's gifts, or at least respect each other's integrity and intelligence. Maybe you two have been emailing since your respective posts; I rather hope so, and I hope it's been civil. Vipers, savages . . . whatever it is your father called you, you're obviously one heck of an articulate brood. You've clearly got brains, and I think you have heart too, and I hope we'll be able to converse together in a way that's truly respectful and loving, even when we have different opinions and interpretations of events. Insofar as we slice each other up, I think we're really perpetuating the legacy of the Seed. And Thom, if that isn't how you remember it . . . like I say, though it's a big mystery to me, I have no doubt that there may be others who also remember it more benignly than I do.

One more point though, and then a question. I think you might concede that Straight, and some of the other programs described in this forum, were/are much worse than the Seed. And Ginger did go through Straight, so I think her experience may have been much more severe than your own.

Question: Why were you at the Seed for 4 years? You said you "went to meetings" there for 4 years. Do you mean oldtimers' raps? Or did you have to start over a number of times? Just curious.

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2002, 02:36:00 AM »
Thom,
   
   Before I start, I would just like to say that all you post are appreciated, and welcome here. There are may people that even more misguided then you that post here. Just because you opinion differs does not mean we don't appreciated you. You words of "Wisdom" will be well read and thought over, after all that is what we are here for. After all if we all agree it's no fun and a dull conversation.
   
   I don't usually post to these boards. I leave that to those who would get the most out of them, I am more of a lurker, but because of the kind of guy I am, I just have to set the record straight.
   
      First of all, your last visit, the first in several years (even though you had driven past our door steep many a time without uttering a word or saying hello, which I guess is your way of "reaching out") was pleasant, at least I though so, until the discussion got heated when during your recantation of The Seed (which had no substance what so ever, imagine that) you were stating, and continuing to support the idea that alcohol is not a drug. You did not like the fact that Ginger would not concede on this point and left the house in a huff. No, you did not hug the kids, as a matter of fact you had one foot in the car before you wife could make it out the door. I never saw a "disabled" guy move so fast (I guess ppl would have gotten their mail on time had you moved that fast as a postman). And coincidentally alcohol is a drug, so get over it!
     
      BTW: You are not the only sibling to be within a mile of our doorstep and not bother to stop or even let us know you were in town until you had returned home. You all did it, and so often, I can't even keep count. I guess that is what "Reaching Out" is all about!
     
      And the term Tag-team, I could have not come up with a better term my self for what you 5 other siblings do to Ginger. All any of you can do is berate, ridicule, and slander her not only behind her back (yes, I heard may a things during some of those family get-togethers that others thought they said in quiet), but in her face as well. Now you want to lay it out in a public forum under the guise of "reaching out". I'd tell ya to buy a clue, but you would know what one was if it jumped out your ass and pimped slapped you upside the face!
     
      For a family that is not broken it seem weird that when you father died, all you could do is Burn all of the most valuable shit he had, his books and writings which he had collected through the years. There was tons of knowledge there for you to learn from, but they would not have scored any brownie points with "MOM", and just seem worthless to you all. "Dad was a great man", you all would say, then spit on the ashes of that we had collected for you. You showed him no real respect, I heard it all "Yea Dad what ever, talk to ya later". The fact is that you resent Ginger for having what I think was the closes relationship with your father then any of you. She respected and revered him, not just because of his fight with the post office, but for the many other things that he said and did. All the while you and you kin were standing in the back and snickering, saying "The old man is crazy". The only difference between him and Ginger is that you didn't have the guts to say it to his face. Oddly enough, even though scoring brownie points with mom seems top priority, nobody seem to really like her either, they are just hoping to some day inherits what ever the Seed/Straight hasn't left. And don't give me that shit like "well I go to see my mother", yes you drive there, then do everything you can to avoid really being with her. ahhhh the sounds of a loving family!
     
      And not every one feels the same as you about your family. Jack has said on many occasion that he feels like an outcast in the crowd. And for a family that is so happy why is there not one sibling within 2 states of another?
     
      You have also stated that since your father had not gotten any "Love" he did not know how to give it in return, well..... I feel sorry for your kids, because profits live their fortunes.
     
      I have never been to a Straight/Seed meeting, but from what I've heard and read, your posts make me feel like I have been to an open meeting. It seems that all you can give is hate and resentment. Take my advice; Be less condescending, listen more then you will get respect and love instead of the resentment and hatred that you spawn now.
     
      You are not addicted to drugs, alcohol, or gambling, rather you are addicted to addiction. Or should I say the treatment of addiction. I think you problems is that instead of fixing your own life, you feel the need to be with people that make you feel superior, and that you can berate them without guilt because you are better then they are.
     
      I know the truth hurts, and by this point you are really pissed. So kick back, pop another Prozac, relax, and give me your best shot. Show all these nice people what a real ass you can be, I already know, I've lived it.
     
      PS: Just so that you know that I am kind of heart, I could go on and on and on and on about all the bull shit that Ginger has had to put up with in this family. An how often you attempt to make her feel like a pariah, a total worthless out cast, and some time with excellent results, As Loie would say "Good For You".
     
      But first, how many typoes can you find? I got the preperation H.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2002, 08:43:00 AM »
Well Thom, one more lesson learned at the Seed, take the self rightous approach, and if people don't agree with you, don't talk to them.
This was/is a real opportunity to get past this nonsense with your sister and her family and put things back together.25 years is a long time to harbor these feelings for a loved one.
 Like a said in a earlier post, how unfortunate for your family that you still embrace all that Seed nonsense and can't see that it is prohibiting your family from healing.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2002, 09:34:00 AM »
On 2002-06-05 03:27:00, Thom McNulty wrote:
Hi Bill,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts...I don't happen to agree with many of them, and find very little accuracy in your recollections, but I do respect your right to express them.
It would appear that my presence here is disruptive. That was not my intent. Sorry if my posts have offended anyone.

   I don't have any real hatred for you, but I can not stand by and watch Ginger get slandered once again with the guise of "reaching out". God, that term pisses me off when it comes from a sugar coated, poison pen. And it is also funny (funny strange not funny haha) how people remember things in a way the benefit them most. However, from your programming, sorry, I mean Stair Mastering, that you would remember things differently.

I truly wish you all well, including you, Ginger and Bill. I hope you find the peace of mind and self acceptance we all seek. I enjoy a fairly high level of both, thanks in part to my Seed experience, but more significantly through step 11 (the real version).


      I am glad that you think you feel good about your self, but by the way you keep going on about your STEPS, it would seem to me that you are trying to justify them to your self, not me.

If anyone would like to share with me about any positive results or memories from your time at The Seed, I would very much like to hear from you. Plenty of room here on the boards for the negative stuff, (and I don't discount it's worth).

My email address is:

[email:3im2kzzr]aathomic@comporium.net[/email:3im2kzzr]


 I hope that you were not posting that email address for mine or Ginger's benefit, as we both know that you have blocked all email from us quite some time a go. So now, there is a discussion with a view that differs from your own, and all you can do is bow out? Your farther would be proud (NOT!).



Take care, and, again...thanks for your input.

I will bow out now, and consider what I have learned here.


Some how I seriously doubt that you will consider anything :sad:
 At least you are not leaving as abruptly as last time I saw you, so you must be growing some.

Take care, Thom

[ This Message was edited by: sysadmin on 2002-06-05 07:09 ]
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2002, 10:05:00 AM »
Scott, thanks for that. Truth is, I would probably still talk to Thom, but he blocked my email address through his AOL account and this is the first time I've seen his new address.

Greg, thanks for your kind words. And you're right. My brother was no skidrow junkie at 14. For the most part, all his olddruggiefriends who didn't go through the Program are just fine these days.

Bill, I'll thank you later. :wink:

Thom, first your posting here is not disruptive. Take a look around, there are a lot of threads far more heated than this one. All are welcome to Fornits' Home for Wayward Web Forums (WWF, where the acronym is no coincidence!)

One thing I remember, I was in on one of his first 'earned' talks with my mother. Dad wasn't there, I don't think, because he wouldn't take the kind of insult Art and his tennie-bopper followers dished out during the requisite checkout. While Art was holding forth about your father having chosen his drinking buddies over you, dad was out raising money and donations from his drinking buddies to help get those kids straight. Ask Louie one day about all the cold-cuts he sent down there and the Christmas turkeys.

Here's what I remember. I had a question for you about your druggiepast. It was about that very first, shiny new bike I got for Christmas. You'd promised to teach me to ride it (and I think you would have) and I let you take it to Argo to spend some cash that you'd gotten for Christmas. Well the bike got stolen. At that talk, I wanted to know if you'd sold the bike for drugs. I'll never forget the look on your face, you were devistated.

The thing is, you never were the kind of person who would steal your little sister's bike and sell it for drugs. Art put that in my mind, not you. Invite me to hang out with you cause chicks dig cute little girls? Sure. But that was fun! Cute little girls like being fawned over just as much, so that was a win-win situation. Tell me it was nap time and make me stay in my room ALL DAMNED DAY! when you babysat? Ok, that was a little mean, but not outside the scope of normal sibling mischief.

But you never were so messed up BEFORE the Program as after. And that's typical of Program graduates.

Art did always say 'if it helped one kid...' (but destroyed some and seriously complicated the lives of hundreds or thousands??) it was worth it. You ask if you could possibly be the only kid helped. Well, who are you still in touch with? Jim and Kathi don't talk about it. Jack hasn't got anything nice to say. We're not exactly overwhelmed with Seed supporters over here. Where are all these grateful beneficieries? And why DON'T you stop in at The Seed whenever you've been in Ft. Lauderdale over the years?

As for Jack being 'my latest casualty', ok, you just keep on telling yourself that. He took this family for a ride on the last project. Can't wait to see that $25k barn! I won't even go into all the reasons why we're done with him. But I guess you'll be finding out for yourself if you spend any real time with him as I have over the years.

Don't worry about my self acceptance, brother (lol!) I have plenty. It's your condescending attitude and outright abuse that I won't accept. As for your 'reaching out to me', the only time this family has ever reached out to me with any real energy, you were reaching for a pile of cash, which got.

I wish you and yours all the best. Don't spend it all in one place.



[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2002-06-05 11:54 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2002, 10:24:00 AM »

Thom wrote:
Greg, it's really the anti-Seed nonsense that's getting in the way. I devote very little time even thinking about The Seed. Ginger builds websites to worship and perpetuate that part of her life. A matter of perspective, I suppose.

Thom,
I am guessing you had no "bad" experience in the Seed. Did you spend any time enrolled in Straight? If you were to be forced to go without sleep, or food, or water, or mad to stand /sit for hours on end. Forced to show happiness about your treatment, would you not be a little pissed off. If everyone in your family told you to quit whining about it and butch up, would you just clam up, and go away? Would you not want to seek retribution on your captors? It is your (and other siblings) insistence that "everything is all right" that causes the problem. You do not want to hear anything bad about you Idle Art, that would be against.. um can you refresh my memory, what step was that?

It is a shame on one that instead of a constructive conversation you would rather insult people when they "hit a point", but I guess that is the response of a graduate. Congrats bro, you are about ready to be a "program" counselor.

[ This Message was edited by: SysAdmin on 2002-06-05 07:26 ]
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2002, 10:56:00 AM »
Ok, I just have to throw this in one more time. Thom's not the only one who has a mental highcough every time I (we) answer the "Why, oh why can't you let it GO" question.

Well, the truth is, for almost 20 years, a lot of little things that I saw going on around me sort of creeped me out; DARE and Peer Counseling along with random piss tests and drug sniffing dogs in the schools, neighborhood watch programs (which remind me very much of Soviet-style block monitors... or chain of commands, for that matter), Multijurisdictional Counterdrug Taskforce (see The Shield or The Wire on tee vee), Safe and Drug Free Workplaces/Communities/Shools... now homes? (with the 'self' test drug screening kits available to parents who just can't trust their kids... that come with a brochure refering parents [with good insurance] and who's kids match the checklist for substance abuse [or puberty] to places like Growing Together and SAFE) Then Brother Jeb! took office as the governor of my home state. And among his first actions was to promise $100M in funding for juvenile rehabilitation?!

Ok, I knew there were strong ties between the Program and the Reagans. And it was more than obvious that the first Bush presidency was a mere extension of the Reagan administration... so I had to look... just to find out.... like looking under the bed to make sure there are no boogie men there. Unfortunately, they're there and their names and faces are familiar.

This is why I do it:

The Governor's Sub-rosa Plot to Subvert an Election in Ohio Prominently featuring Straight founder, Betty Sembler, current DFAF Exec. Director, Calvina Fay and some executives from Phoenix House; the largest Synanon based rehab in all the land.

I have been interested in drug policy reform for some years. And I was fairly well familiar with the big players. But I thought it was just my own paranoia, left-over from my days in Straight and childhood in a Seed family that made me think they were making good on their stated goal of turning the whole world into the Program.

I think I liked it better when the world was more-or-less OK and only I was a little paranoid. But there's no unseeing once you take the blinders off. So I'm trying to make everyone else see it too. If enough of us see it, maybe we can put our heads together and figure out what to do about it before we have a full blown American Gulag Archipalego.

BTW, Dad didn't spend a lot of time worrying about things he couldn't change. He spent a lot of time thinking about how to win back the America he and all his childhood friends went to war to protect and which, of those from his home town, he was the only one to return. He did a lot for us kids, but he had other legitimate obligations. And now that he's gone, I'll do my best to carry on that part of his work which he was able to impress on me as being worth the effort.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2002, 08:22:00 PM »
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Offline Somejoker

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« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2002, 12:52:00 PM »
lol.
Anonymous got cold feet, but Thom, you are wanted back on another thread.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2002, 11:52:00 PM »
OH My....and I thought it was just my family!

It has been really interesting to get back on line (my computer was in the hospital very sick...now recovered!)and read through this dialogue.

I too was in the Seed in St Pete, as soon as it moved there from Ft Lauderdale. And yes i did graduate, after starting over a few times.

I did learn to play the game.

BUT, I always knew I was playing the game as I needed to survive the experience.

I stopped going to Old Timers meetings following an episode at the Elk's Club Pool.
I was there with an exseedling (who was at the time in another rehab and was sober in fact), YET when other seedlings came to the pool they shunned me.....

Yet these are the same people that had been telling me for close to a year that they "loved me", they "trusted me"...I went to an Old Timers Rap that evening, and when I started to speak about me experience, I was shut down....It was not the "subject" of the rap that evening. I still remember what the topic they thought was more important than "my feelings" was........the topic was about getting other people into the Seed....
I never went back.

Shortly after this I started using more drugs than I had ever thought about before.I am NOT blaming anybody for my choices, I just know that my home was not a safe environment for me (abuse of all kinds took place there) and I had lost faith in people's words of love and respect and caring.

I certainly did not hear words of support, encouragement, love and praise from my father and stepmother. I did hear things like what a slut I was (even as a virgin), how stupid I was (even as an A student), and lived on "restriction" simply because he KNEW I was doing things just could not catch me so I'd be grounded (following my beating) for the sake of his principles.

I had thoght i had earned a group of friends within the Seed that would be my emotional support.....they sure showed me didn't they?!

Well the night my father dragged me out of a sound sleep at 3am to start beating me because I had "snuck in" (although I had been home since 11pm right after work, cleaned their dinner dishes, did my homework and went to bed...the truth never really mattered in that home)....It was the best night of my life.....He told me I could leave,and I did after spending 3 hrs at the emergency room....

I guess the thing I really remember is being in Gibbs High School and still being cursed and spit on for being a "seedling" even though I had been out for 2-4 years. I remember high school as a time of pain and much loneliness.

I remember very few names of the people I was in there with, perhaps my God is being good to me helping me to let those things go.

My father died several years ago...I am still waiting to hear officially from my stepmother about his death! I recently had to set some boundaries for my mother; perhaps our relationship will recover, perhaps not. But I needed to make sure that I am safe from her harm.

I have been sober for about 20 years now. I have a son (soon to be 18 Ugh!) who knows about my life, and has chosen a different course for himself (Thank God).

I also know that my son did not have the type of life I had; because I worked very hard to ensure that I did not continue the cycle.

I am married (4 1/2 yrs now) to a wonderful recovering addict (16 yrs sober) like myself.We did not meet in "the rooms", but did date for 7yrs because I was still not comfortable believing that I was "loveable".

I wish that my younger brother and sister were closer to me, they were not a part of my Seed experience as they are 7 & 9 years younger than me and lived with my mother. My brother is much like the "viper" I read about here, very judgemental. My sister and I are truly reaching out to each other and learning about each other. I am very happy about that.

I guess the real reason I have just written this "book" is because I wanted to remind us that each child within a family experiences that family in a different time with a different perception. NONE of those differing perceptions are better or worse than the others. JUST DIFFERENT!

I submit that the realtionship I have with my mother,as the first born child of a 15yrold mother is different than my brother's, as the last child of 4 to a 26 yrold mother.

The economics,the expectations,the fathers,and the emotional experiences were different. This is true, I believe for all families---functional and dysfunctional.  

I think that setting some boundaries is healthy for all....even though some times the boundary means that you have no contact at all. I have a brother 1 yr younger than me that I have neither seen nor spoken to in 25 yrs. For my own sanity it has to be that way.....sometime people are very unhealthy for each other---family or friend---whom ever is harmful should be removed from a person's reality.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2002, 12:11:00 AM »
for some reaon the last post read ANONYMOUS even though I was logged in, but it won't let me log in again.Oh well things happen.

I did write the last post.

So I just wanted to say that my name is
Debi White, I currently live in Sarasota with my husband and son (and my 2 German Shepards (lol)....

I am sorry I was rambling so much...I guess those posts between brother and sister (and husband?) struck a chord in me. I guess I just wanted to say that sometime we do just have to accept what we can not change....and sometimes other people's perceptions just won't change to include yours no matter how important it is to you....it is unfortunate but altogether too human....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2002, 02:15:00 PM »
Thank you, Debbi. I needed that.

About that login problem. You're not alone in that either :wink: Could you post over in Web forum Hosting about that? Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes