Apologia - Serious debate only, please!

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-10 11:25:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Well, it seems the death of Ian August could have been prevented except for a bad judgment call on the part of his apparently inexperienced and ill-equipped field counselors.  This kind of mentality is unacceptable.  Parents need to get proactive and demand the highest standards of care and treatment. Parents have medical insurance to cover their children's healthcare needs while they are residing in these programs, do they not?  So what's the problem?"

Didn't Ian August die in some kind of wilderness program, non wwasps?  Bad thing, but it's a bit misleading.

[Anonymous]

Deborah, was your child in a wwasps program? If so, I'll listen to anything you have to say regarding this program.  If not, let's leave it to those that really know.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-10 11:36:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Have any of the owners and operators of these programs been awarded advanced degrees in behavioral science/healthcare?  I mean, specialty schools and programs without staff "specially" trained and qualified in behavioral healthcare seems like an oxymoron."

Does anybody know here?  I know of many medical centers and hospitals where the directors are not MD's...how can that be?

[Deborah]

***Have any of the owners and operators of these programs been awarded advanced degrees in behavioral science/healthcare?***

Interesting. These 1995 articles detail the origins of the "treatment" at BM facilities:
SYNANON'S HISTORY & INFLUENCE IN THERAPEUTIC COMMUNITIES and EMOTIONAL GROWTH SCHOOLS - II
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe04.html

ECLECTIC COUNSELING part 2 of 3
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe05.html

http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe02.html
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /oe03.html
There appears to be a desire on the part of programs headed by degreed individuals to seperate themselves from the likes of say, programs headed by used car salesmen. The latter are not invited to the private clubs- industry associations- set up by the degreed directors, to spin the illusion that they are different and operate with integrity.
Fact is, they're all more similar than different. The primary difference that I can discern is that the used car salesman charges less for "treatment".
Another difference I've noticed is that the used car salesman is somewhat more upfront with the "abuses" employed, and declares that its necessary for change.
The degreed director is much more covert.
They all know they lack the skills necessary to send home a genuinely "changed" kid without resorting to "abuse".

[Deborah]

***Deborah, was your child in a wwasps program? If so, I'll listen to anything you have to say regarding this program. If not, let's leave it to those that really know.***

Sweetie,
You continue to misunderstand. It doesn't matter to me if you "listen" to me or not. And in case you missed it, I don't believe program parents "know" anything except what they are told and have read. The only thing they are "experts" on is their experience in seminars. And they aren't very forthcoming about that.

[Anonymous]

Is that a yes or no?

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-10 12:27:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2004-01-10 11:25:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Well, it seems the death of Ian August could have been prevented except for a bad judgment call on the part of his apparently inexperienced and ill-equipped field counselors.  This kind of mentality is unacceptable.  Parents need to get proactive and demand the highest standards of care and treatment. Parents have medical insurance to cover their children's healthcare needs while they are residing in these programs, do they not?  So what's the problem?"

Didn't Ian August die in some kind of wilderness program, non wwasps?  Bad thing, but it's a bit misleading. "

Anon, there have been other "preventable" deaths, including kids who have committed suicide while in a program (e.g. A 14 year old boy who hung himself while enrolled in Alldredge Academy and the 17 year girl who apparently jumped to her death at Tranquility Bay/WWASPS).  Other kids have committed suicide shortly after leaving a program, including 2 WWASPS children (Christopher Landre and Corey Murphy). These are just a few tragic examples of cases where "bad judgment" may have played a role in the death of a child.  There are more.

 :cry:

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-10 12:37:00, Deborah wrote:

"***Deborah, was your child in a wwasps program? If so, I'll listen to anything you have to say regarding this program. If not, let's leave it to those that really know.***



Sweetie,

You continue to misunderstand. It doesn't matter to me if you "listen" to me or not. And in case you missed it, I don't believe program parents "know" anything except what they are told and have read. The only thing they are "experts" on is their experience in seminars. And they aren't very forthcoming about that."

Is that a yes or a no, sweetie?  

It seems you are talking about yourself ** I don't believe program parents "know" anything except what they are told and have read.**

That doesn't seem to be my experience in reading the posts from "program" parents.

[Anonymous]

http://www.cslandre.org - Chris didn't get to stay long enough to graduate.  Very sad, but his father created something beautiful from that tragedy... from organ donations to helping parents in need.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-10 14:27:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2004-01-10 12:27:00, Anonymous wrote:


"

On 2004-01-10 11:25:00, Anonymous wrote:



"Well, it seems the death of Ian August could have been prevented except for a bad judgment call on the part of his apparently inexperienced and ill-equipped field counselors.  This kind of mentality is unacceptable.  Parents need to get proactive and demand the highest standards of care and treatment. Parents have medical insurance to cover their children's healthcare needs while they are residing in these programs, do they not?  So what's the problem?"

Didn't Ian August die in some kind of wilderness program, non wwasps?  Bad thing, but it's a bit misleading. "

Anon, there have been other "preventable" deaths, including kids who have committed suicide while in a program (e.g. A 14 year old boy who hung himself while enrolled in Alldredge Academy and the 17 year girl who apparently jumped to her death at Tranquility Bay/WWASPS).  Other kids have committed suicide shortly after leaving a program, including 2 WWASPS children (Christopher Landre and Corey Murphy). These are just a few tragic examples of cases where "bad judgment" may have played a role in the death of a child.  There are more.



 :cry:



"

Yes, there are more, many more...but not wwasps.  Great diversion!

[Deborah]

***www.cslandre.org - Chris didn't get to stay long enough to graduate. Very sad, but his father created something beautiful from that tragedy...***

From the website:
Several long term cognitive education programs are approved by the Foundation. Approval by the Foundation encompasses what the opportunities and accomplishes of each program are. The Foundation does not receive operational funds from behavior modification programs as consideration for approval.
*********

In the interest of accuracy and away from deception, shouldn't that read, "One umbrella organization of CE programs" has been approved?

Is Landre self-selected Ed Con now?
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... heard.html
Aug 2002 Lance Landre, President of the Star of Life, also known as the C. S. Landre Foundation, Inc., Fresno, California, 559-434-2598, hangten@cslandre.org, a 501(C)(3) Non-Profit Public Benefits Corporation, stopped by the offices of Woodbury Reports to explain his foundation is devoted to raising money to help parents needing financial help to place or keep their children in Special Needs Schools and Programs. Landre originally had a child in a World Wide Association of Specialty Schools and Programs (WWASP) and since he knew that group of schools, has been working with those parents, but is interested in expanding his work to help parents in all Special Needs Schools and Programs.
***********

Did he get any takers?

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-10 14:42:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2004-01-10 14:27:00, Anonymous wrote:


"

On 2004-01-10 12:27:00, Anonymous wrote:



"

On 2004-01-10 11:25:00, Anonymous wrote:




"Well, it seems the death of Ian August could have been prevented except for a bad judgment call on the part of his apparently inexperienced and ill-equipped field counselors.  This kind of mentality is unacceptable.  Parents need to get proactive and demand the highest standards of care and treatment. Parents have medical insurance to cover their children's healthcare needs while they are residing in these programs, do they not?  So what's the problem?"

Didn't Ian August die in some kind of wilderness program, non wwasps?  Bad thing, but it's a bit misleading. "

Anon, there have been other "preventable" deaths, including kids who have committed suicide while in a program (e.g. A 14 year old boy who hung himself while enrolled in Alldredge Academy and the 17 year girl who apparently jumped to her death at Tranquility Bay/WWASPS).  Other kids have committed suicide shortly after leaving a program, including 2 WWASPS children (Christopher Landre and Corey Murphy). These are just a few tragic examples of cases where "bad judgment" may have played a role in the death of a child.  There are more.





 :cry:





"

Yes, there are more, many more...but not wwasps.  Great diversion!  "

Anon, you miss the point in your rush to separate WWASPS from the rest of the pack.  The point is, all children are at risk of serious injury and even death when in the custody of a program operated by persons who lack specialized training and/or rely upon faulty judgment to make life or death decisions.

GOT IT??

[Deborah]

Before I provide links to Cognitive Education, thought I'd give you all a chance to comment on what you understand it to be. Also, if an entity administering Cog Ed must be certified or licensed in anyway, and by whom.

Does WWASP refer to their "treatment" as Cog Ed at any of their websites or is this Landre's interpretation of the 'treatment'?
Does Cog Ed not belong to the the mental health/psychology field?
Have directors/staff been trained in Cog Ed?

I realize three questions is a lot to focus on, but they all deserve answers.

[Anonymous]

Got it?  I get that all children are at risk in certain situations/school events/sports/ RTC's/scout camps/summer camps/gymnastics classes.  That's why they all have parents sign a waiver.  Your point is?

I DO AGREE that the parents need to check the safety history of these places.

[Anonymous]

To my knowledge, all the staff therapists at the schools are degreed and licensed - in answer to the rest of your post. They are with the kids five days a week 8-10 hours a day.  I can only answer from my personal knowledge of one of the wwasps programs. If you're looking for more, you might check it out yourself or ask.