What is the economy anyway ??

[starry-eyed pirate]

 I didn t ... view it as an argument, but rather hoping you would see my point.

Paul

Argument in the debating sense...

[starry-eyed pirate]

heh.. No.. Not an attack on you personally..

...uhh...yes it is.  Separate the argument from it's source.

LOL!  uhhh.. No.. It wasn't.. It was a question.  You opened the door to it.  You said something without actually saying it, which is a very safe place to be.. You get to assume all the liberties of being immoral, hypocritical, and unjust, but none of the responsibilities.. I was trying to get you to say what you are saying, and to get you to face it yourself.. I could argue with you for the mere sake of arguing with you 'til the end of the world, but such things never breed results, in my experience, and amount to mental masturbation..

Paul

Well, you're being very general.  I don't really know what you mean by all that, but thank you for getting me to face what I already know and ...yeah, thanks for that :roflmao:

Am I to understand then, that you live a just and moral life and are not a hypocrite ??

[starry-eyed pirate]

I highly (the pun is always intended) recommend everyone on this thread read a few of these essays written by Aldous Huxley in 1958...

The whole thing is a good read that I think everyone here would appreciate...

In particular relevance to this thread, please check out the first three or four chapters:

http://www.huxley.net/bnw-revisited/index.html

Thanks Froderik.  I read through it a few sections but thats pretty long... might take a while...interesting...

[none-ya]

I would like put forth my economic feelings,
FUCK THE RICH. STORM THE BASTILLE. WE NEED MORE CAKE!

[starry-eyed pirate]

It is worth mentioning that there is nothing in the world stopping you from doing that right now, but instead yo9u choose to be on a computer made by people who had jobs.

Paul

Is this a question ??

... O and what makes you think I'm not ??  Because, I am using a computer ??  or what ??  curious...

[Paul St. John]

heh.. No.. Not an attack on you personally..

...uhh...yes it is.  Separate the argument from it's source.

LOL!  uhhh.. No.. It wasn't.. It was a question.  You opened the door to it.  You said something without actually saying it, which is a very safe place to be.. You get to assume all the liberties of being immoral, hypocritical, and unjust, but none of the responsibilities.. I was trying to get you to say what you are saying, and to get you to face it yourself.. I could argue with you for the mere sake of arguing with you 'til the end of the world, but such things never breed results, in my experience, and amount to mental masturbation..

Paul

Well, you're being very general.  I don't really know what you mean by all that,

If you would like to understand it, perhaps, you should read it again.. I think I have spelled it out pretty clear, and you seem more then intelligent enough to understand it if you try.


 but thank you for getting me to face what I already know and ...yeah, thanks for that :roflmao:

Am I to understand then, that you live a just and moral life and are not a hypocrite ??

I strive to.  If held under a microscope, you would find numerous imperfections in me.  I am, of course, not perfect, but I think that you can make a generalization in this regard.  There are many people whom I would refer to as just, moral, and having integrity( the opposite of hypocrite).  I know that none of these perfect, but I would still say that.. If nothing else, it is true in relative terms, and understand by most what you are saying... Just the same as I will call Hitler, an evil man, even though he was very intelligent, and I consider intelligence to be a virtuous quality.

I would say Alex Rodriguez is a great baseball player, even though he has more then his fair share of strike-outs.  warren Buffet is a great business man/ investor, in spite of the fact that he has made some bad ones.


As far as me, I do not steal, ever, under any circumstances.  I do not physically assault others. In all situations, I try to do what I think is right, even when there is apparent reward to do the wrong thing, and unjust punishment for doing the right the right thing.  I question myself frequently and my own principles.. Perhaps, most importantly, I am always striving to be moral, just, and act with integrity.  I do my very best to.. I consider very difficult- sometimes, excrutiatingly so, but all the same, it constant intention in me, and I hold it as a ver high value.  I would like to think that that allows me to fit within that general category, even though, I am very far from perfect.

Paul  

[Paul St. John]

heh.. No.. Not an attack on you personally..

...uhh...yes it is.  Separate the argument from it's source.

LOL!  uhhh.. No.. It wasn't.. It was a question.  You opened the door to it.  You said something without actually saying it, which is a very safe place to be.. You get to assume all the liberties of being immoral, hypocritical, and unjust, but none of the responsibilities.. I was trying to get you to say what you are saying, and to get you to face it yourself.. I could argue with you for the mere sake of arguing with you 'til the end of the world, but such things never breed results, in my experience, and amount to mental masturbation..

Paul

Well, you're being very general.  I don't really know what you mean by all that,

If you would like to understand it, perhaps, you should read it again.. I think I have spelled it out pretty clear, and you seem more then intelligent enough to understand it if you try.


 but thank you for getting me to face what I already know and ...yeah, thanks for that :roflmao:

Am I to understand then, that you live a just and moral life and are not a hypocrite ??

I strive to.  If held under a microscope, you would find numerous imperfections in me.  I am, of course, not perfect, but I think that you can make a generalization in this regard.  There are many people whom I would refer to as just, moral, and having integrity( the opposite of hypocrite).  I know that none of these people are perfect, but I would still say that..
 
If nothing else, it is true in relative terms, and understand by most what you are saying... Just the same as I will call Hitler, an evil man, even though he was very intelligent, and I consider intelligence to be a virtuous quality.

I would say Alex Rodriguez is a great baseball player, even though he has more then his fair share of strike-outs.  warren Buffet is a great business man/ investor, in spite of the fact that he has made some bad ones.


As far as me, I do not steal, ever, under any circumstances.  I do not physically assault others. In all situations, I try to do what I think is right, even when there is apparent reward to do the wrong thing, and unjust punishment for doing the right the right thing.  I question myself frequently and my own principles.. Perhaps, most importantly, I am always striving to be moral, just, and act with integrity.  I do my very best to.. I consider very difficult- sometimes, excrutiatingly so, but all the same, it constant intention in me, and I hold it as a ver high value.  I would like to think that that allows me to fit within that general category, even though, I am very far from perfect.

Paul  

[Samara]

Speaking of the economy, I must say as BS as it is, was it better under a feudal system...? or even under the traditional more historical marital system in which women were forced to marry for economical reasons.... ? There will always be the oppressed and oppressor and there are strengths and weaknesses of each time; but true freedom?  

Can you protest when you are part of the chains that drag workers down?  As Paul says, should you get to assume all the liberties of being immoral, hypocritical, and unjust, but none of the responsibilities?  There is hypocrisy in all, but its a matter of degree and the effort to try and live a life of integrity. I would think instead of proud hypocrisy, one might endeavor to be fair and just. Regardless of "the Matrix."

Those who promote a Walden Life might first achieve it before they espouse it.

The economy sucks for many reasons. Greed, ignorance, and dwindling resources vs. growing occupants.  Maybe we'll implode. Or maybe everyone will just smarten up. Necessity is the mother.... the mother fucker of us all.

[none-ya]

Samara wrote;
"Speaking of the economy, I must say as BS as it is, was it better under a feudal system...? or even under the traditional more historical marital system in which women were forced to marry for economical reasons.... ?

I'm sorry but women have been marrying for "economical reasons" since time began. And they show no signs of stopping anytime soon.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life.  If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and  clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly.  In fact, if that is the case, then you are stealing the worlds health and robbing future generations of their chance to lead a good and healthy life.  I have a good friend who once told me, "Justice is not using anybody for anything, ever, period ".   In other words, justice has no ego.  The moral and the just are mostly invisible people, few and far between.  I don't know a whole lot about the Amish, though I nearly finished a book about their history once.  It seems to me though, that they do a pretty good job of living sustainably on the Earth.  They don't use electricity and they don't drive cars(although they take rides) and they grow most of their own food.  I know that they have some participation in the economy but I think it's minimal and I suggest that an Amish way of life or something akin to it, is the answer, sans religion.

What we have now is corporate feudalism.  The schools main purposes are not true education, but social conditioning.  Students learn the skills that will enable them to become part of the corporate power structure, instead of how to truly support themselves.  They learn dependence not independence.  Where are the schools that teach gardening and farming, leather work, metal smithing, hunting and fishing, and tailoring and carpentry, in addition to the 3 "R"s.  The schools homogenize the population and make the people dependent on the economy and therefore submissive and easy to control.  

I didn't mean to give the impression that I was proud of my hypocrisy, In fact I'm ashamed, but my shame doesn't prevent my honesty or my search for answers.  I think that most Americans, if they're honest with themselves, will realize that they frequently trade justice for convenience.

I think the idea that one has to be free of hypocrisy in order to point out an injustice is just silly and immature and frankly egotistical.

I am not sure why I am being accused of assuming all the liberties of immorality, hypocrisy and injustice.  You think I'm some kind of a nihilist or something ??  Far from it. My life is a work in progress and I do my best to live a conscientious life or as you put it, Samara, to live fair and just regardless of the matrix.

[Froderik]

Speaking of the economy, I must say as BS as it is, was it better under a feudal system...? or even under the traditional more historical marital system in which women were forced to marry for economical reasons.... ? There will always be the oppressed and oppressor and there are strengths and weaknesses of each time; but true freedom?  

Can you protest when you are part of the chains that drag workers down?  As Paul says, should you get to assume all the liberties of being immoral, hypocritical, and unjust, but none of the responsibilities?  There is hypocrisy in all, but its a matter of degree and the effort to try and live a life of integrity. I would think instead of proud hypocrisy, one might endeavor to be fair and just. Regardless of "the Matrix."

Those who promote a Walden Life might first achieve it before they espouse it.

The economy sucks for many reasons. Greed, ignorance, and dwindling resources vs. growing occupants.  Maybe we'll implode. Or maybe everyone will just smarten up. Necessity is the mother.... the mother fucker of us all.

I would hope that humanity has learned a little over the course of history (no need for any 'return to feudalism' or anything...next..)

Fiat currency, derivatives and all of that un-American bullshit has to go, for starters..

[Froderik]

What we have now is corporate feudalism. The schools main purposes are not true education, but social conditioning. Students learn the skills that will enable them to become part of the corporate power structure, instead of how to truly support themselves. They learn dependence not independence. Where are the schools that teach gardening and farming, leather work, metal smithing, hunting and fishing, and tailoring and carpentry, in addition to the 3 "R"s. The schools homogenize the population and make the people dependent on the economy and therefore submissive and easy to control.

 :nods: :tup:

[Loli]

None ya that is a pretty strong indictment against women. I don't know who your female friends are, but mine are hard working, educated, and often the bread winners.  Some do it all - take care of kids and provide for our families. In fact, I don't have a single friend who married for money, or don't pull more than their fair share. I am proud of the women I know. They bring it.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Fear of hypocrisy keeps the truth unspoken.

[starry-eyed pirate]

... I suggest that an Amish way of life or something akin to it, is the answer, sans religion.

... and with some source of renewable energy, like solar.