Author Topic: the DISSOCIATION issue  (Read 3703 times)

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Offline seamus

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Re: the DISSOCIATION issue
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2011, 03:18:59 AM »
dude, I have no problem with you or your brother. I dont care whos "rehab" was worse. what I care about is that things get passed down,so that dumb assed, non thinking parents dont do the injustice or puttin kids into a damaging ,nightmarish situation. now hav ing said that(sorry space key sticks) just where do YOU think the school of thought,that the people who fucked YOUR life came from. Im out o straight,but I realise theres more than 1 way to become fuct. the thing is how it got to be from point "a" to point "b:   tell the world,and then you both kill the demon that has allready hamstrung us,and you warn potential prlacements of parents because 20% of them(and im being super generous) might see the truth of how truly damaging this bullshit is. This thing is beyond the Idea of who was a "staff member" ( I was too). dfo what you gotta do but fuck dude it s bigger than pride. I dont do shit to hurt any survivor onthis forum,lookit up,l didnt our programs fuck us hard enough? Im just sayin givr your 2cents (i know its there). about what really went on what really caused it ,and how to dodge/change it.      I positivly refuse to get into the Idea of "an x staffmember said thus and so" fuck that,Im one too. and in stasnding here,thrying my balls off to be a better man than ive been inthose days. I dont hate you and I think you are misunderstood. You should say your bit. but for the obvious,please be careful how you say it. man , cmon be better than a "moderator"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
It\'d be sad if it wernt so funny,It\'d be funny if it wernt so sad

Offline starry-eyed pirate

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Re: the DISSOCIATION issue
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2011, 09:35:33 AM »
Quote from: "starry-eyed pirate"
 ...No one talks about it.... if someone could have explained what we have discovered, here, for ourselves, on fornits, shortly after I got out, then I might have saved so much wasted time, but anyway...

...and just to be clear, I don't mean to imply that a quick little explanation would've made everything alright, but say, for example, if someone would'a' handed me Robert Lifton's book about the Brainwashing in China within a few weeks of graduation, and been willing to discuss it with me, then I think a whole lot of confusion and wasted time and energy could've been avoided.  No one debriefed us.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

Offline Froderik

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Re: the DISSOCIATION issue
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2011, 10:32:18 AM »
Quote from: "starry-eyed pirate"
Quote from: "starry-eyed pirate"
 ...No one talks about it.... if someone could have explained what we have discovered, here, for ourselves, on fornits, shortly after I got out, then I might have saved so much wasted time, but anyway...

...and just to be clear, I don't mean to imply that a quick little explanation would've made everything alright, but say, for example, if someone would'a' handed me Robert Lifton's book about the Brainwashing in China within a few weeks of graduation, and been willing to discuss it with me, then I think a whole lot of confusion and wasted time and energy could've been avoided.  No one debriefed us.

Things got interesting once the internet became commonplace, like a color TV, everyone has it now..let me text ya about what's going on in group, lol. So now people are reading (and then posting) about what happened to them as soon as they get out...

You get the feeling that the string-pullers at the top of the str8 pyramid didn't figure on this "talking out in group," even though it's 20 years after the fact...so it's a different world now in that regard...

Yeah it would have been good to have been debriefed.. things might have been a little different...then again, it would have been good to have never gone in at all, but we will never know what that is like, either..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Judge Joe Brown

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« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2011, 04:16:42 PM »
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 12:39:39 AM by Judge Joe Brown »

Offline Awake

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Re: the DISSOCIATION issue
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2011, 06:54:27 PM »
@ Gatekeeper

I think there was always emphasis on ‘feeling’ being the real you  with the ‘truth’ and ‘little kid’, maybe not as explicitly stated like in the ‘I and me’. But I do seem to remember that this propheet gave staff the ability to attack a students ‘thinking’, by saying ‘that’s your thinking’ and essentially blame your ‘head’ for getting in the way of your ‘feelings’.  Wasn’t “I” associated with “thinking”? (Wasn’t the towel exercise a fight between I and Me?) I remember lots of language like ‘you’re in your head’, and that was generally recognized as a bad or ‘not the real you’. This is what I remember from raps, just like the rest of the tools, ‘you’re not living your Truth, that’s your Lie’, and so on.



I think my main point was to show that there is something extremely ironic in that the “I and ME” was originally a theory of consciousness developed by William James who at the time was carrying on an all but dead tradition in hypnosis and dissociation, and who also believed that schizophrenia, literally a split  mind, can be created by the therapist. Actually I think all the tools suggest that that was the intention, extreme polarizations of personality traits. I mean, what was all that screaming at the floor yelling ‘fuck you’ about as if there is someone else in your head. This was not a healthy thing for staff to emphasize, they were teaching us to manifest psychotic symptoms.  And the propheets, no sleep, exhausting exercises, heavy emotional stimulation, the whole thing was to hypnotize you and dissociate you to  produce a state of mind where you are most suggestible to others influences, ....I’m pretty sure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Judge Joe Brown

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« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2011, 07:29:48 PM »
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 12:40:22 AM by Judge Joe Brown »

Offline Awake

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Re: the DISSOCIATION issue
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2011, 09:13:52 PM »
Nicely stated Gatekeeper,  somewhat related to what I was about to post. One comment I would add though is that, despite all the external pressures, you were supposed to be 100%accountable for your feelings. When people made others ‘snap’ staff jumped on it like salivating dogs to ENCOURAGE the catharsis, ‘That’s right, what are you feeling right now! Don’t hold back! What are the feelings!’. And by that time you couldn’t do anything but agree with them and express your rage. And then it was ‘yeah, just stop holding back on your feelings and let everyone in’ like it was something they didn’t instigate.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Awake

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Re: the DISSOCIATION issue
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2011, 09:19:08 PM »
I normally don’t like to post information that I myself would find hard to believe if I had not experienced something relatable, but I found this paper on dissociation and trauma that hits on the specific subject of the use of dissociation for carrying out mind control. This is the part I am focusing on below. Some of it might be extreme but I think certain principles translate to how programs maintain control.

Dissociation, A Normal Response To Trauma

By
Mary Laura English

Initially written for a Special Research & Technical Writing Project, Spring Quarter, 2002,
Currently being revised for publication


Dissociation, a Normal Response to Trauma


Stress from Life’s Experiences Affects People Nearly 400,000 New York residents took an emotional battering from the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to the World Trade Center twin towers. As a result of the attacks, more than a half million people have sought mental health treatment.1 The above New Yorkers were diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). This disorder uses a natural human ability called dissociation. In this paper we will address dissociation and how it comes into play in our everyday life, as well as in times of extreme stress.


What is Dissociation?

When the word dissociation is brought up, most people think of the Three Faces of Eve movie. Contrary to Hollywood’s portrayals, dissociation is a normal human capability used by everyone. Most of us understand association—where there is a connecting or joining together of things. Dissociation is when what should be together is separated. For example, association is when a person’s sight, sounds, smells, feelings, thoughts, meaning, memory, actions, and sense of identity are together. Dissociation happens when one or more of these elements is missing.2  Dissociation helps us cope with a wide range of situations—from the common and ordinary to traumatic events….

Dissociation Is On A Continuum

The uses of dissociation can be seen on a continuum.5 Figure 1 illustrates this continuum. From left to right the usage of dissociation unfolds from our responding to everyday common experiences, to our reacting to emergency crises, to our handling of trauma-related survival situations.


Figure 1 Dissociation Continuum
-CommonDissociation
-Acute Stress Disorder
-Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
-Dissociative Identify Disorder
-Structured Mind Control   ….

Structured Mind Control

Everyone is vulnerable to mind control. This is clear from the huge amount of money spent on commercial advertising form of mental suggestion or subtle mind control. Also, by the use of mind control methods people are “converted” daily into religious cults, like the Moonies.

Although cults use similar techniques, like sleep deprivation, structured mind control is more sinister. Victims who have been through structured mind control are not aware of having been programmed on cue to perform an “assignment” given to them.

Structured mind control takes advantage of the fine-tuned dissociation in DID victims. More complex programming is used. Therapists are increasingly recognizing these cases across this Nation and refer to them as either crossover abuse or marionette syndrome.38 In mind control conditioning, programmers structure a victim’s life to perform a suggested behavior when triggered by a cue or signal.


USA and Canadian governments have funded a number of mind control programs.39 One set of documents at the Center for National Security Studies in Washington DC uncovered 80 institutions, 144 colleges or universities, 15 research facilities or private companies, 12 hospitals or clinics, and three penal institutions in the USA and Canada involved in the mind control experiments. After eight years of litigation, 75 USA mindcontrol victims’ cases were settled out of court.40

This programming originated with Nazi German scientists during World War II. The German scientists experimented on human subjects to see how much abuse they could absorb and to use the better-trained victims for specific war assignments. Dissociation was perfect for espionage cases, in case the victim on assignment was arrested. These scientists were brought to the USA and South America during the World War II. Some of the programming went under the name of Monarch (butterfly) or MKULTRA.41 …

Every human being has basic needs: physical (hunger, warmth, and sex), safety and security, love and belonging, self-esteem, and selfactualization. A cult will deny or manipulate these fundamental needs at the critical stages of a child’s development. A cult will use torture, terror, extreme pain, sexual arousal, drugs, electroshock, sleep/food/water deprivation, temperature extremes, loud noises, or strobing lights. These perpetrators will use any technique within the cult settings to induce a deep trance to produce dissociation. In addition, threats, trickery, and deceit are used to build helplessness and hopelessness—to isolate the victim to the control of the perpetrators.50

The above methods also are used to break the will of prisoners of war. Only children of ritual abuse are not trained soldiers but children. The tormentors are not a recognized enemy, but the child’s parents. There is no escape or end to the child’s “war.” Ex-POWs know that they were tortured and brain washed. But with dissociation, victims of ritual abuse are not aware.51

…. The best way to keep a group’s abuse secret is by maintaining dissociation in their members. Coercion is what maintains dissociation. Therefore, cult programming needs to be repeated, or the victim’s mind will attempt to dismantle the programming and break free of it. To keep programming from breaking down, lessons, attitudes, beliefs, behaviors, and responses are paired up with cues or signals—just like the use of cues in hypnosis….
…. the purpose of these cues or signals is to trigger discomfort, bring up intrusive memory or programming, avoidance, and/or extreme fear in the victim….


The Making of a Perpetrator

Before coming down too hard on programmers52—those who plan and/or carry out the abuse/cult training—let’s look at how a perpetrator is made.

Ritual abuse programming begins with a very young child. The perpetrator’s goal is control over his/her victim’s mind. With the child exposed (usually nude) and vulnerable, the perpetrator becomes the allpowerful.

A programmer will use planned strategies to create and maintain dissociation. Putting the young victim in a double bind is one technique. An example would be the programmer ordering the victim to kill a puppy or his/her mother would be killed. The choice to kill the puppy to save his/her mother is then used against the child, as the young child is told that he/she is a bad person—a murderer. Placing the victim in a lifethreatening test with rules that suddenly change at the whim of the torturer is another technique. Changing the rules of the game is frustrating to anyone. To a child whose safety is at stake, it brings submission, a broken will.

To survive the child will deny him/herself and go along with the perpetrator. Intuitively the child will comply with the torturer in order to anticipate and control the abuse the only way that seems possible. Satisfying the perpetrator becomes the only thing that matters, for only when the perpetrator is pleased and finally satiated will the torture end.53 And in the process the very young child assumes the identity of his/her torturer and becomes a perpetrator.54 …” - http://www.shieldofaith.org/resources/library/224.pdf -
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Judge Joe Brown

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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2011, 03:57:23 AM »
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 12:41:11 AM by Judge Joe Brown »

Offline Froderik

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Re: the DISSOCIATION issue
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2011, 11:56:32 AM »
Quote from: "The gatekeeper"
Quote from: "Awake"
Nicely stated Gatekeeper,  somewhat related to what I was about to post. One comment I would add though is that, despite all the external pressures, you were supposed to be 100%accountable for your feelings. When people made others ‘snap’ staff jumped on it like salivating dogs to ENCOURAGE the catharsis, ‘That’s right, what are you feeling right now! Don’t hold back! What are the feelings!’. And by that time you couldn’t do anything but agree with them and express your rage. And then it was ‘yeah, just stop holding back on your feelings and let everyone in’ like it was something they didn’t instigate.

Yes, I remember that well.  There is another aspect I find troubling about CEDU.  What lengths did children go through to program themselves, for the sole purpose of avoiding pain?  This concept may be uncharted waters on fornits.  I don't know.  This wasn't meant as a negative towards anyone.  Children knew when they were going to get "blown away" in raps.  They had to build themselves up mentally so they didn't look vulnerable in from staffer's POV.  Ultimately, this resulted in  a sense of paranoia.  This has affected many survivors today.

This is a very interesting point...it got me thinking about to what extent that environment may have affected me when it comes to dealing with conflict (of any kind) nowadays. I suppose that would have to be evaluated somehow in order to come to any conclusion there. I can tell you that I experience anxiety whenever I anticipate (and I'm VERY intuitive about these intra-personal things) conflict. This may be a 'normal' reaction in those situations, but i don't have a litmus test for this...I don't know how much of that is residual program-instilled fear...but I get really anxious if I anticipate a conflict.. and if someone starts escalating the situation by raising their voice or whatever, I get increasingly agitated to the point of wanting to get out of the situation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

dragonfly

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Re: the DISSOCIATION issue
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2011, 06:58:16 PM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Awake

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Re: the DISSOCIATION issue
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2011, 02:12:55 AM »
I recognize a lot of what is said in the last few posts. The anxiety related to confrontation, the acts of self preservation taken in the face of those threats that are self destructive or destructive to others, the social distortion from ‘working’ or ‘gaming’ the program in a way that insinuates you are ‘fake’ or ‘out of touch with yourself’ and challenge you to continually express a more ‘genuine’ belief in the program philosophy, which becomes the interpersonal game.


I remember that much of the time people were more willing to attack themselves than defend themselves against others if you were anticipating being ‘blown away’ in raps.  Alot of direct attacks took place under the presupposition that someone’s behaviors, attitudes, and emotions made it an ‘unsafe’ environment for the rest of the group to ‘open up’ and ‘work’ on themselves. If their was nothing to confront each other about, we would have to talk about our issues, I don’t know, I still can’t tell how much of any of that was really genuine or if the game of acting ‘genuine’ just got so out of control no one could guage interpersonal reality anymore.


I seem to remember it all beginning with arriving in the clutches of other students who were enforcing the (mostly trivial) rules with that attitude of ‘just do it, this is how you get by here, trust me just play along and you’ll be better off.’ And so I did, and I learned how to stay ‘under the radar’ by learning to ‘genuinely’ be in line with the program. Next thing I knew it was me guiding the new student through in the same way ‘trust me just play along, I’ll help you get by’.  Somewhere around here I think I lost my bearings on reality and started gaming myself, and distrusting my instincts.



…I had already heard several relatable stories before this thread, I just haven’t heard it equated with dissociation. One aspect of this that I don’t want to ignore is that evidence suggests many programs intended to create a dissociative effect.  Eruptions of ptsd symptoms are commonly associated with stimuli that were present during the dissociated event called triggers. Confrontation can be one of those triggers. Though I know little else about Gatekeeper other than he attended Cedu, I am sure the mere mention of a particular song or two (correct me if I am wrong) will have him recalling some very particular, maybe very private memories of the cedu experience.  It could possibly even re- cathect a personality that was adopted as a defensive response to the situation. And is it possible that that was the point? (What’s your little kid’s name Gatekeeper? Don’t answer that.) During the propheets they would play the same songs over and over for hours.  These songs were pretty much the only music we were allowed to hear the whole time at cedu. And it is pretty much impossible to hear any of that music without recollecting that place. I think it is quite purposely to install reactive triggers that work just like ptsd.  




…. One last thing I would note about Cedu ‘brainwashing’ so to speak, is that it began by infecting you with the notion that you had already been brainwashed. You were a fake or a ‘lie’ and you didn’t even know it, and if you didn’t believe it you would at least act like it. You were literally considered to be ‘in your shit’ if you imbibed any of your previous interests and attitudes.  There was another thread on fornits something like ‘why you can’t fake it’. That is true, you couldn’t fake it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »