Carolina Springs

[chi3]

I took my child to this school. I did not use an escort service because I felt it would be too much and unnecessary in our situation. I did not take my child there to get rid of or to put off on someone else because I didn't want responsibility. I do not like what I have seen of the adult seminars. I didn't see much of anything of value to most adults. Maybe there is to a teen. I do not know what the answer is. But neither do any of you. This is a very hard decision to make. I haven't heard any or anything specific about abuse at CSA. If someone can tell me concrete evidence of this, I will definately seriously consider it. I came here for knowledge, good or bad. I don't think you can actually blame the person a parent hires to escort their child as that person is just a conduit. The parent is the one who makes the decision to hire someone. They asked for the help. I don't like the idea of waking a kid up in the middle of the night by strangers and then handing them over to them. But, if this guy here doesn't do it someone else will. Until these schools no longer exist,there will always be a position open for this task.

[Timoclea]

On 2005-01-12 08:19:00, chi3 wrote:

"I took my child to this school. I did not use an escort service because I felt it would be too much and unnecessary in our situation. I did not take my child there to get rid of or to put off on someone else because I didn't want responsibility. I do not like what I have seen of the adult seminars. I didn't see much of anything of value to most adults. Maybe there is to a teen. I do not know what the answer is. But neither do any of you. This is a very hard decision to make. I haven't heard any or anything specific about abuse at CSA. If someone can tell me concrete evidence of this, I will definately seriously consider it. I came here for knowledge, good or bad. I don't think you can actually blame the person a parent hires to escort their child as that person is just a conduit. The parent is the one who makes the decision to hire someone. They asked for the help. I don't like the idea of waking a kid up in the middle of the night by strangers and then handing them over to them. But, if this guy here doesn't do it someone else will. Until these schools no longer exist,there will always be a position open for this task.



"

Chi3--I'm sorry you're having to deal with this situation.  I gave my advice in another thread.  I wish you the best of luck in getting the best possible care for your child.  I don't think at this point that any of us have enough information to tell whether your child needs to be involuntarily committed, or has a problem that will be worsened by the particular program she's in, or not.

I *do* know that I would not trust any program that tried to brainwash me with the care of my child no matter *what* my child's particular problems were.

I don't know what sort of help your kid needs because I don't know enough about the problem.

However, it seems to me you have good reasons for your misgivings about this particular program all on your own, and I would urge you to trust those instincts.

It seems to me that you can't get the help your child needs until you know exactly what's wrong.

The things that make me suspect a hard knock on the head is that you can tell me the precise age at which things started to go wrong, and you only tell us *one* really unusual symptom "lies and lies and lies" and not a whole cluster of symptoms that would fit a known disorder.  It may be that you just didn't tell us as much as you could've (and why would you?--we're total strangers), or it may be that there's a sudden onset and just one or two really vivid symptoms that don't fit well with any one diagnosis---which tends to be the kind of "one-off" profile you get from brain damage following a concussion.  But it's just a guess in the dark over the internet, so don't place too much stock in it unless you can trace it to a hard knock on the head, maybe enough to lose consciousness briefly, about six weeks before you started noticing the symptoms.

Anyway, regardless, you need to know exactly what your child's problem is, and you need a treatment plan you're much more comfortable with than you apparently are with the one you have.

Which can be tough because these programs make you pay so much up front, that will be forfeited if you pull your kid, that it makes it a real wrench to change your kid's treatment plan if the program doesn't work out---which is why they do it.

*IF* you decide to change, contact ISAC (you can find them on Google) they may have some information for your attorney that may help you get out of some of the worse financial consequences of pulling your child out.  Some of the contracts these places make you sign sound real scary, but are legally invalid and won't hold up in court.  You may have more rights, financially, and better options, than you think you do.

Timoclea

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.
--

[Anonymous]

On 2005-01-12 08:19:00, chi3 wrote:

"I took my child to this school. I did not use an escort service because I felt it would be too much and unnecessary in our situation. I did not take my child there to get rid of or to put off on someone else because I didn't want responsibility. I do not like what I have seen of the adult seminars. I didn't see much of anything of value to most adults. Maybe there is to a teen. I do not know what the answer is. But neither do any of you. This is a very hard decision to make. I haven't heard any or anything specific about abuse at CSA. If someone can tell me concrete evidence of this, I will definately seriously consider it. I came here for knowledge, good or bad. I don't think you can actually blame the person a parent hires to escort their child as that person is just a conduit. The parent is the one who makes the decision to hire someone. They asked for the help. I don't like the idea of waking a kid up in the middle of the night by strangers and then handing them over to them. But, if this guy here doesn't do it someone else will. Until these schools no longer exist,there will always be a position open for this task.



"

For specific info about CSA, look here:
http://www.isaccorp.org/documentsam.html#csa

[Anonymous]

Isac is just opinions, not facts. Like this board.

[Timoclea]

On 2005-01-12 10:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Isac is just opinions, not facts. Like this board."

ISAC provides some facts.  Specifically, when parents dealing with programs, and they have a dispute, ISAC can help provide information for their lawyer about what legal strategies have worked in other courts in the past---which saves their lawyer time, and saves the parents money.

Also, people's personal experiences are not opinions, they're allegations, and they're eyewitness testimony.

Whether a person believes them versus the program's assertions and testimonials or not is his or her decision.

But they're not mere opinions, someone's statements about their own personal experience in particular programs is actual evidence.  What weight a person gives that evidence, whether someone personally finds a particular witness credible or not, *is* individual opinion.

And citations to studies and findings of various organizations are facts.  Courtroom determinations and citations thereto are facts.  Citations to news articles about deaths, prosecutions, and closings of facilities by government authorities are facts.

That you would classify all this different stuff together, higgeldy-piggeldy, as "opinion" tells me that you're either evaluating it on a very shallow level or that you don't have much experience supporting your positions on a subject with evidence and reason.

This isn't a purely black or white issue.

There are people of all ages who need residential care so badly they really need to be involuntarily committed.  There are people of all ages who don't absolutely require involuntary commitment, but who would benefit from proper treatment in a residential setting.  There are people of all ages who do bad things and deserve incarceration to protect other people and their property from them.

There's good residential treatment and there's bad residential treatment and there's mediocre residential treatment.

There's proper incarceration with due process that respects the prisoner's basic human rights, and there's abusive incarceration that needs improvement.  There are variations of severity of abuses.

It's not a black and white issue.

There are shades of gray, and only an absolutely fanatical ideologue would maintain that *all* residential treatment or incarceration should be shut down (and I know of *nobody* here who advocates that), and only an absolutely fanatical ideologue would maintain that the programs *don't* need improvements in certain areas and better oversight to ensure quality of care.

That the programs fight absolutely tooth and nail against the idea that any facility that holds and treats children should have to be licensed by the state and periodically inspected to ensure it meets standards makes them look like irrational, crooked fanatics.

If they don't want to wear the label, then they need to start being *reasonable* about basic licensing and oversight.

Timoclea

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.

--Charles Austin Beard

[Deborah]

And, lest we forget, at age two comes the first big push toward independence which includes defiance, testing the limits. And dare I use the M word, they can also begin to manipulate (early lying) the people in their environment if they have been exposed to it in its overt or covert forms. This is a crucial phase and a parent can set their child up on a difficult path if they aren't careful and thoughtful with their responses and interactions.

Lying is not a mental illness. Children at that age don't lie. It's usually a lttle later, after a few spankings or other harsh consequences and an association is made, when they realize that it makes sense to lie in order to possibly avoid the harsh consequence that being honest might bring to bare. Very basic suvival instincts. We all do it to some degree or an other. Don't put so much importance on this. Don't identify it as a 'problem' but an indicator that something is amiss.

If your child lies, it's because you haven't fostered mutually respectful communication. And chances are good that your consequences are too harsh.

While it is geared toward smaller children, watch Nanny 911. You might get a feel for where things went wrong, way back then, and how you might go about righting that wrong. Step One: is to admit that you probably unawarely created this situation, short of any physical injury she may have sustained.

A good book which will also provide insight into how to have a genuinely close and respectful relationship with your kids is 'Your Child's Self-Esteem' by Dorothy Corkille. Excellent reading.

We need a Teen 911. Rather than shipping off your teen to a BM facility, a mentor would live in your home, observing your interactions with your child, and provide much needed support to parent and child. I tend to believe that most therapy, one-hour-a-week-in-a-sterile-office, is not the most useful way to spend one's money or gain results. I think there are few really good therapists.

If you do catch Nanny 911, the pattern you will see over and over and over again is the parent identifying their kids as 'out of control' and in need of 'being fixed'. Har!! Nanny proceeds to foster a respectful relationship with the kids while confronting the parents about their ignorant and/or harsh parenting style, sometimes to the point of the parent having a much needed emotional release.

This type of in-home resource, mentoring is so badly needed today. We are witnessing the ravages of parentless homes. Not fair or rational to blame the kids.

Parents today are terrified of inflicting permanent psych damage to their child by setting limits. The children are indeed in charge of the house with more power and responsibility than they know what to do with. It is not respectful to give them such an inaccurate view of their place in the world. And parents of teens wonder why their teen 'runs over them'. You wouldn't allow anyone else to do that, why your child? They need to learn they are not slave or master, but an equal human being with rights and responsibilities.

Want to try a radical approach? Tell her that you are done with punishments and consequences. You just want to understand why she appears to be so unhappy. Not a peace with herself. Ask her to share her fears and concerns. Ask her what her goals are, short and long term. Ask if education is important. If not, is there a trade she's interested in. Explore some possibilities. If not, then it's time for the hard, cold truth. Short of physical incapacity, she must attend school or work. Her choice. For the most part, the relationship is shifting to that of a roommate situation. Certainly, you might continue to help with medical/dental, etc and this would be a gradual liberation. But, she must begin to make a financial contribution to the household, as well as other contributions toward maintenance.

If all else fails, you can take her to a homeless shelter (the safest you can find). Give her a list of numbers for social services in the community- welfare, free clinics, soup kitchens, etc. This experience can put things into perspective for a teen real quickly- over night sometimes. She may have settled into a hopeless state and need a little motivation to move from the familiar. She needs to know that you will no longer support her as an invalid, which you apologize for creating. Every hear this- Everytime you do something for someone they can do themselves, you are fostering an invalid, a dependent. It is oh so true. And of little ones as well as teens.

And she may be one of those bored teens in a culture that makes teens invisible and insignificant. Who has no hope for the future of her generation (god know that's a legimate concern and should be explored). She may thrive with the challenge to actually work and pay her way, given of course, the option to do that. To do something SHE perceives as meaningful and worthwile. Working minimum wage for a while can also change a kid's perspective on the importance of education. You must though be prepared that she may be comfortable with that for a while or forever. Education can always be persued at a later date if/when SHE decideds its important to her.

There are many ways to get from here to there. This is but one, and one that could foster a mutually respectful relationship with your daughter.

[Antigen]

On 2005-01-12 10:52:00, Deborah wrote:

We need a Teen 911. Rather than shipping off your teen to a BM facility, a mentor would live in your home, observing your interactions with your child, and provide much needed support to parent and child.

I think, more than that, we need to turn off the idiot box and just remember what it was like. Sorry, but it's frightening to contemplate these kids who are barely able to pick up after themselves dealing with this very complex world we're leaving to them. But that's our bed we've made now we and they have to lie in it.

When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=william+blake' target='_new'>William Blake

[Anonymous]

Not suggesting another tv 'program'.
I think it would be useful for helpers to go into the home and work with parents- to help them remember 'what it was like'. And even that could be screwed up if not done well. Not talkin about CPS or casework.
It would beat the hell out of what we have, or rather don't have. If parents didn't feel so absolutely clueless and helpless, perhaps they wouldn't be pawning their kids off on strangers. Some anyway.

[chi3]

Believe it or not, my daughter and i have always been very close. She is very open about many subjects. she has admitted things that kids she hangs around with have done. The problem is, she lies about everything and anything. Not just to us, but to her close friends. she has no concept that this is wrong. she doesn't even honestly seem to believe she does it. she claims to be atheist, bisexual, and yet doesn't even seem to know why and what her beliefs on these subjects are. She's very intelligent. she didn't start lying or manipulating at age 2 or so, but has always been extremely difficult and headstrong. I would say that that's normal for some people, but trust me, many, many others have noticed this and have considered her behavior very odd. she seems sometimes to be 2 different people. she has pretty extreme highs and lows, her father was very abusive, mostly to me, some to her, a little to her sib. he genuinely was suprised at times that he had abused me. he would have "blackouts" and wake up not remember anything. it was not a "ploy" he really didn't know. it was scary! he was very much jeckyl and hyde. he loved to torture people, not just hit. he also loved/tortured animals. he has no conscience, morals, or feelings of obligation to anyone. how can i know what all this means for her? i don't. i am just absolutely terrified she will turn into "him". she has so many positive characteristics, but her other "side" is very bad. Any ideas on that??

[chi3]

by the way, i like the nanny 911 show. i agree with whoever said that it usually comes down to the parents being to permissive. i see that all the time. i really think we could all use help that comes and lives in and gives a view that is not jaded. it couldn't hurt!

[Anonymous]

On 2005-01-14 03:10:00, chi3 wrote:

"Believe it or not, my daughter and i have always been very close. She is very open about many subjects. she has admitted things that kids she hangs around with have done. The problem is, she lies about everything and anything. Not just to us, but to her close friends. she has no concept that this is wrong. she doesn't even honestly seem to believe she does it. she claims to be atheist, bisexual, and yet doesn't even seem to know why and what her beliefs on these subjects are. She's very intelligent. she didn't start lying or manipulating at age 2 or so, but has always been extremely difficult and headstrong. I would say that that's normal for some people, but trust me, many, many others have noticed this and have considered her behavior very odd. she seems sometimes to be 2 different people. she has pretty extreme highs and lows, her father was very abusive, mostly to me, some to her, a little to her sib. he genuinely was suprised at times that he had abused me. he would have "blackouts" and wake up not remember anything. it was not a "ploy" he really didn't know. it was scary! he was very much jeckyl and hyde. he loved to torture people, not just hit. he also loved/tortured animals. he has no conscience, morals, or feelings of obligation to anyone. how can i know what all this means for her? i don't. i am just absolutely terrified she will turn into "him". she has so many positive characteristics, but her other "side" is very bad. Any ideas on that??"

Chi3,

This really sounds like something you should ask a professional about-- a psychiatrist or a psychologist. Have your daughter evaluated, if you haven't already. Psychological evaluations are usually very thorough, and it might also help you find proper help for her.

[chi3]

oh, ihave! I can't get a straight answer from any of them. we have had several indepth analysis and get different answers, and she either lies to them, snows them, or shuts down. Some think she has no problems. her sib. says she needs help! feels she is just playing everyone. this is not out of viciousnous, but out of real love. so confusing! actually psycologist she is seeing at the "school" seems to actually kinda get her. that is the only thing that's kept me from pulling her from there.

[Perrigaud]

CHI,
I really don't understand why you keep ignoring me. Everything you have said about your daughter I have done and more. I'm more than willing to give advice. But if you don't want it you don't want it. I wasn't even going to bring up the whole WWASP thing.

[chi3]

sorry perri!

[Anonymous]

On 2005-01-14 03:41:00, chi3 wrote:

"

oh, ihave! I can't get a straight answer from any of them. we have had several indepth analysis and get different answers, and she either lies to them, snows them, or shuts down. Some think she has no problems. her sib. says she needs help! feels she is just playing everyone. this is not out of viciousnous, but out of real love. so confusing! actually psycologist she is seeing at the "school" seems to actually kinda get her. that is the only thing that's kept me from pulling her from there."

Chi3,

I understand what you're saying, but that psychologist who "gets her" is no reason to put her physical and mental well being at risk by keeping her at a WWASP facility.

There ARE good psychologists out there, and there are good, beneficial programs for kids. WWASP ISN'T one of them.