The smoking gun - do survivors lie?

[Anne Bonney]

In case there was confusion:  Keep the title of the thread to "Why do Survivors need to Lie?" and speak your mind.

They don't.  The reality of what's done to them/us is bad enough.  Whooter started this thread with the sole intention of making it appear that survivors routinely lie about being abused.  We don't.  Let it die the death that is Danny's "authentic self" thread.  He's talking to himself, which is what Whooter should be doing here by starting off a thread with such a loaded question.

 :feedtrolls:  :fuckoff:

[DannyB II]

It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.

Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

Well, then keep reading, because I am a program survivor and I have been listening to people like yourself whore for attention for over 30 years.

[DannyB II]

I dismiss the premise of this thread based on the OP's credibility problems.

I fabricated a son

Statements like the one above make me dismiss this thread out of hand.  Now, if some credible poster wants to start a credible topic, I'd be glad to weigh in with my thoughts.  This thread is desperate attention-whoring and deflection from Whooter's really bad week that culminated in his confession that he made up his fake family which he does not have.  Where do you go from there, really?

"Survivors lying" hasn't been established by any credible person, so the rest of this thread is fluff.

Well you can dismiss anything you like, you have a room full of zealots on your side but what you can't take away is my experience first hand. I have been listening to freaks like you for 30 years, you never get any better. If anyone is a attention whore or creative at deflecting issues away, well come on my friend, you win the "award".

[DannyB II]

Fucking liar.

Gee, I wonder if this is acceptable. Everyone has lied.

[Whooter]

In case there was confusion:  Keep the title of the thread to "Why do Survivors need to Lie?" and speak your mind.

They don't.  The reality of what's done to them/us is bad enough.  Whooter started this thread with the sole intention of making it appear that survivors routinely lie about being abused.  We don't.  Let it die the death that is Danny's "authentic self" thread.  He's talking to himself, which is what Whooter should be doing here by starting off a thread with such a loaded question.

 :feedtrolls:  :fuckoff:

Anne, why are you trying to invalidate the thread by assuming you know my intentions?  Every group has people who lie.  I dont think I could name one that doesnt.  But not everyone within the group lies.  Shaggy demonstrated that he could show us he/she was abused at Straight without having to resort to exaggerations or lying. Do you think you could communicate your time at straight and what happened to you without exaggerating?  Do you think you could address a panel of senators and explain what happened to you without embellishing the facts for drama effect?

What is the advantage of someone saying they were kidnapped when everyone knows they were taken to the program via an escort service?  Does this gain sympathy?  add drama?  gain more attention?  To fit in better at fornits?  Would police or the GAO use this description?  

Do you see what I am saying?  I am not saying all survivors lie but trying to understand why many survivors try to trick us into believing they were kidnapped or brainwashed or tortured etc..



...

[Watchful Yeoman]

But a big step in getting people to listen is to try and make your story as credible as possible.

I fabricated a son

 

Sorry, folks, but I won't be lectured to about "lying" by this guy.

[DannyB II]

Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

I think yours is a good example, Ursus.  Imagine a kid writing or talking to an edcon or anyone after returning from a program.  The child says:

Response “A”
My time at XYZ Program was terrible.  The intake process was humiliating because I was required to disrobe and change into the schools uniforms in front of another staff member.  Most of the staff were nice but this one guy Robert Newly would scream at me and forced me to miss several meals.  He made me uncomfortable with some of his contacts which I felt were inappropriate. The school wasn’t bad overall and I managed to move ahead with my studies.  The food wasn’t great.......

Response “B”
After I was kidnapped and transported to the Gulag where I was incarcerated for 16 months I was systematically tortured and abused by the prison guards, starved and held in isolation.  I underwent extensive brainwashing and now have PTSD.

Response “A” would raise a concern and the person hearing this would call immediately to inquire about this Robert Newly and report the findings.  Response “A” was communicated well enough to be believed as credible.

Response “B” would be treated as a sarcastic immature response indicating that the child never bothered to apply themselves and still seeking attention.  I think we can agree that the abuse allegations would not be taken seriously for good reason.

I don’t think you should blame the Edcon for pooh-poohing the credibility of Responder “B”.  A big part of the reason some survivors are not believed is because of the way they communicate in my opinion.  I think listening to many posters speak here on fornits confirms that this language is used very often.  If survivors really were concerned about credibility they would address this issue or at least be open to the possibilities.



...

Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?
You have no basis for discounting our accounts except that they seem unlikely to you.  We do not care what seems unlikely to you because we all believe that you make your money off of these places and therefore have solid financial reasons for attempting to discredit us.  The whole LGAT treatment model is abusive.  In the program I was in, ALL of the staff was abusive, because that is what they were trained to be.  We were always hungry, always scared.  Only one way out, become one with those who are abusing me.  How is this different from brainwashing?

No, all of you have not even come close to going through a gulag, please. Elan 4 was the closet to a actual prison within a treatment center setting and not one of you were there.
So please take your embellishments and reconsider what it is you are trying to say.

[Watchful Yeoman]

OK, well we got one example now.  DannyB II is a survivor and a liar.  That's one.

[DannyB II]

I use the term brainwashing to describe what happened to me at Straight inc because that is exactly what happened. I was forced to sit in a chair and stare straight ahead for 12 to 18 hours a day. Even moving my eyes away from the wall for a moment would invite harsh confrontation by staff/group. The only movement allowed was to turn your head to face the person speaking. The conversation in group all day long revolved around how awful we were as "druggies" and how only Straight inc could save us from ourselves. I was 15 and had only smoked a little pot and had a few beers in my whole life up to that point. I was taught that i would die, go insane or be locked in jail if I didn't fully commit myself to Straights' dogma. Every aspect of my life was completely controlled - eating, washing, sleeping, speaking, - everything. After month upon month of this I started believing what Straight was telling me. Eventually I believed EVERYTHING they told me.
It is my understanding that many programs today still use Straight-like methods on kids. It is brainwashing and I will continue to use that term to describe it.

This story right here is a embellishment, of course you will move your eyes, every group you were in was not always about you and the focus was not always on drugs.
Listen in case you did not know, it is not Straights fault you only smoked one joint, drank one beer, kissed one girl and stayed out late one night. Some one gave Straight the impression you were a screw-up so you were placed there. Now if you want to blame Straight for the type of treatment you received, fine but take up why you were placed there with the proper folks.
I didn't believe everything Elan told me, I didn't buy into there concepts of treatment and I wasn't brainwashed.

[Anne Bonney]

I use the term brainwashing to describe what happened to me at Straight inc because that is exactly what happened. I was forced to sit in a chair and stare straight ahead for 12 to 18 hours a day. Even moving my eyes away from the wall for a moment would invite harsh confrontation by staff/group. The only movement allowed was to turn your head to face the person speaking. The conversation in group all day long revolved around how awful we were as "druggies" and how only Straight inc could save us from ourselves. I was 15 and had only smoked a little pot and had a few beers in my whole life up to that point. I was taught that i would die, go insane or be locked in jail if I didn't fully commit myself to Straights' dogma. Every aspect of my life was completely controlled - eating, washing, sleeping, speaking, - everything. After month upon month of this I started believing what Straight was telling me. Eventually I believed EVERYTHING they told me.
It is my understanding that many programs today still use Straight-like methods on kids. It is brainwashing and I will continue to use that term to describe it.

This story right here is a embellishment, of course you will move your eyes, every group you were in was not always about you and the focus was not always on drugs.
Listen in case you did not know, it is not Straights fault you only smoked one joint, drank one beer, kissed one girl and stayed out late one night. Some one gave Straight the impression you were a screw-up so you were placed there. Now if you want to blame Straight for the type of treatment you received, fine but take up why you were placed there with the proper folks.
I didn't believe everything Elan told me, I didn't buy into there concepts of treatment and I wasn't brainwashed.

I was there and would state under oath that what Shaggy's posted is EXACTLY what I experienced when I was in Straight.  I don't give a flying fuck what DannyBoi or Whooter think or how much they froth at the mouth.

Like I said DannyBoi......go back to talking to yourself.  I actually do get a kick out of your trying to start salient threads, only to be ignored.  :rofl:  Then you go back and talk to yourself.......as it should be.  :twofinger:

[Whooter]

But a big step in getting people to listen is to try and make your story as credible as possible.

I fabricated a son

 

Sorry, folks, but I won't be lectured to about "lying" by this guy.

Watchful Yeoman,  I dont expect everyone to agree with my point of view.  I have never spent time in a program myself so I am far from an expert in this area.  Instead of taking shots at everyone and getting mad why dont you give your opinion and join the conversation?  I would be interested to know your take on the subject.



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[Anne Bonney]

I have never spent time in a program myself  

So you really have nothing to add to the discussion and just enjoy starting threads with loaded quesstions.  Gotcha.  


Until you have some experience being on the inside of one of these shitpits, we'll chalk your opinions up to being what they are.  Marketing damage control.

[Watchful Yeoman]

My take on the subject is that nobody should bother answering you, of all people, about lying.  Nobody here should be lectured by a liar such as yourself about lying.

You've never been in a program, we know that.  You never had a son at Second Nature, we know that, too.  But you have lied about both, posing a program kid and "fabricating" a child you never had.  Why the hell should anyone humor you about lying?

[DannyB II]

Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.

But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  I have heard many here state that no one believes them when they tell their story and I am pointing out a huge reason why.

Personally, I don't think a whole lot of folk will EVER believe these stories no matter what language is used. Those people will only start waking up when they hear the stories from their peers, other parents, co-workers and other folk personally known, and/or the sheer magnitude of the phenomenon accumulated over time. Hearing opinions from savvy experts can't hurt either.

All in all, I don't think the choice in words makes a huge difference. Any group of people dealing with a subset of the human experience over a period of time develops their own vernacular. Most people realize that.

But... "clear communication" wasn't really your point in starting this thread, now was it? Your point was that "survivors need to lie." This whole discussion 'bout "word usage" sounds like yet another of your obfuscating smokescreens.

They won't believe them Ursus because most people can not relate (no experience) and the extreme vernacular used here is hard to grasp. What peers are you talking about, this isn't what I would consider mainstream folks.    

[DannyB II]

But a big step in getting people to listen is to try and make your story as credible as possible.

I fabricated a son

 

Sorry, folks, but I won't be lectured to about "lying" by this guy.

My friend you are not above this conversation by a long shot.