The smoking gun - do survivors lie?

[none-ya]

It's kidnapping when there is (and I believe psy addressed this) no due process for the minor. No lawyer. No phone call. No miranda. No rights at all. I don't know about in other states,  But a minor here, has none of these rights even when arrested by the police. No bail  Nothing.It's  like saying the repo man isn't a professional car thief. It's legal. The police should be handling these jobs. Or at least someone with more accountability. than these weekend worriors and wanna' be's. If it walks like a duck......

[Whooter]

It's kidnapping when there is (and I believe psy addressed this) no due process for the minor. No lawyer. No phone call. No miranda. No rights at all. I don't know about in other states,  But a minor here, has none of these rights even when arrested by the police. No bail  Nothing.It's  like saying the repo man isn't a professional car thief. It's legal. The police should be handling these jobs. Or at least someone with more accountability. than these weekend worriors and wanna' be's. If it walks like a duck......

I never read this, do you have a link of any type?  So if the child is forced to get in the car and go visit their grandmother it is considered Kidnapping?  If the parents force the child onto the school bus it would be kidnapping?  I dont think so, the courts would be overwhelmed.  The escort service has the parents sign over the right to transport the child to his/her destination.  So legally the escort service can take the child across state lines.  Correct me if I am wrong but I dont think the child has any rights on this until they reach age 18.



...

[Froderik]

"I always lie...and I'm always right!"
-J.R. "Bob" Dobbs

[none-ya]

If the minor is not under arrest, then why can't he just say no! I ain't goin'. Because he has no rights to start with. If he dosen't go with the transporter, or won't get on the school bus, the the parents should call the cops.By the time it got to court, maybe he could get a lawyer or some sort of advocate.  to represent his(or her) wishes. problem is, kids don't have money. Nobody is lining up to represent children. It ain't safe to be a kid anywhere, anymore. And until things change. they'll just keep lining up (for a fee) to take the kids away. = LEGAL KIDNAPPING!

[DannyB II]

Another derail thread created solely to tarnish survivors. It's sad really.  Specifically when it originates from someone who takes great pride in pernicious perfidy. The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable.

Jeesh, Samara, why have we not heard you complain like this when posts were being written about others. I hate to tell you but you folks are not above lying and down right manipulative reactions.

Your quote:
"The interesting thing is some of the people he accuses of lying are the most balls-to-the-wall straightforward people imaginable".

My quote:
How about this characterization, just basic garden variety folks. See, not all the drama.

[DannyB II]

It's kidnapping when there is (and I believe psy addressed this) no due process for the minor. No lawyer. No phone call. No miranda. No rights at all. I don't know about in other states,  But a minor here, has none of these rights even when arrested by the police. No bail  Nothing.It's  like saying the repo man isn't a professional car thief. It's legal. The police should be handling these jobs. Or at least someone with more accountability. than these weekend worriors and wanna' be's. If it walks like a duck......

So if the judicial system says it is not kidnapping, why are you calling it kidnapping. If escort services are legal why are you saying there not.
So because Psy says it is kidnapping because there is no due process, no lawyer, no phone call, no miranda, that means it is kidnapping. Is this what you are telling us. OK. One problem though the judicial system doesn't think the same way Psy does.

[DannyB II]

Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

But if you are trying to communicate with people who have not been through one of these places then your vocabulary looks foolish.  Amongst yourselves it seems to work fine, but if you are looking for credibility from people who have never been in a program you need to use different words unless you want to be viewed as childish.

Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.

Whoa, wait a second, come on waaaaait......you are not believed by many folks here. Look around when you start talking people scatter. This board becomes a ghost town, you push people away.
The only folks I read are sock puppets from DJ and Frodo's negative one liners.

[none-ya]

Look, if you would rather not argue semantics or verbage, Does "taken by force against one's will" While not being placed under arrest.  serves the same meaning. Just kinda' rolls off the tounge huh?

[Whooter]

If the minor is not under arrest, then why can't he just say no! I ain't goin'. Because he has no rights to start with. If he dosen't go with the transporter, or won't get on the school bus, the the parents should call the cops.By the time it got to court, maybe he could get a lawyer or some sort of advocate.  to represent his(or her) wishes. problem is, kids don't have money. Nobody is lining up to represent children. It ain't safe to be a kid anywhere, anymore. And until things change. they'll just keep lining up (for a fee) to take the kids away. = LEGAL KIDNAPPING!

I guess the survivor would not be lying if there was a term "Legal Kidnapping" but I have never heard of this.  I understand what you are saying, none-ya, but I think the term "escort Service" would be the more accurate description.  



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[DannyB II]

It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.

Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

Really is Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry not count, Ursus. Yes, it has been established in the debates on this Web Site and the dozens upon dozens of other sites. All the interested reader has to do is read the various opinions on the sites. Most of the opinions are from kids that went through the programs.

[none-ya]

Whooter wrote;
"Why make up stories of being kidnapped"

Hey keeper, his question came from the original post. And Iv'e been answering ever since. Kidnapping is not lying. I just posted this a minute ago and you saw fit to remove it? what gives? Maybe we have a problem, But im still on point.

[RobertBruce]

Whooter are you ever going to be able back up your claims? Honestly John just provide a single post that backs up your nonsense about abuse survivors lying. Just one.

[Ursus]

It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.

Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

Really is Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry not count, Ursus. Yes, it has been established in the debates on this Web Site and the dozens upon dozens of other sites. All the interested reader has to do is read the various opinions on the sites. Most of the opinions are from kids that went through the programs.

What are you trying to say, Danny? Are you trying to say: that because the allegedly offending vernacular is used not only on fornits, but also on "Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry" ...  that this is further proof that these "kids" must be "lying?"

[DannyB II]

It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.

Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

Really is Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry not count, Ursus. Yes, it has been established in the debates on this Web Site and the dozens upon dozens of other sites. All the interested reader has to do is read the various opinions on the sites. Most of the opinions are from kids that went through the programs.

What are you trying to say, Danny? Are you trying to say: that because the allegedly offending vernacular is used not only on fornits, but also on "Facebook, Myspace, Twitter and the dozens of others sites dedicated to this industry" ...  that this is further proof that these "kids" must be "lying?"

I thought what I said was very clear, read the comments from the various sites kids/adults from programs are calling other kids/adults from programs (most of the time they know one another, they are from the same program and time) liars and fabricators. They are challenging stories for there truthfulness.
I just wondered if you were going to acknowledge this information or act like it does not exist. Because it does. They are not EdConns, parents or ex-program kids/adults promoting programs for a certain program or Corp. These posters have no incentive to protect profits and they are not trying to  pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts.

[Shadyacres]

I have no need to embellish or lie about my time in the program.  I have a life now and I am happy with it, despite their efforts.  The programs, on the other hand, and all who depend on them for their livelihood, have a very obvious need to maintain credibility.  This is why they change their names every couple of years and keep moving from one jurisdiction to another, with a few exceptions where there is particularly lax oversight.
   These programs still use a nearly identical “behavior modification” model to the one used by the place I was in 25 years ago.  The programs have worked very hard to conceal this fact from the public.  They have created their own language, like other human rights violators have done in the past, to soften public perception of their transgressions  ( re-education doesn’t sound that bad, like some kind of school, right? ).  
   So now we have the term; “escort services”, which tells the hearer nothing about what the services actually do.  Paid abductors would be better.  Or just goons.  


noun |?es?kôrt|
a person, vehicle, ship, or aircraft, or a group of these, accompanying another for protection, security, or as a mark of rank : a police escort | he was driven away under armed escort.
• a man who accompanies a woman to a particular social event.
• a person, typically a woman, who may be hired to accompany someone socially : [as adj. ] an escort agency.
verb |i?skôrt| [ trans. ]
accompany (someone or something) somewhere, esp. for protection or security, or as a mark of rank : Shiona escorted Janice to the door | the shipment was escorted by armed patrol boats.
ORIGIN late 16th cent. (originally denoting a body of armed men escorting travelers): from French escorte (noun), escorter (verb), from Italian scorta, feminine past participle of scorgere ‘to conduct, guide,’ based on Latin ex- ‘out of’ + corrigere ‘set right’ (see correct ).


   Please note there is nothing in this definition about “accompanying people” against their will.  This industry has also co-opted the words “boarding school”,
“drug treatment center” and “boot camp” into their web of deceit and greed.  The facilities now bearing these names, where they forcibly re-educate captive teenagers in a manner that would be strikingly reminiscent to a POW from the Korean war, bear no resemblance to their original definitions.