Author Topic: Seed article to be published/Help needed!  (Read 5855 times)

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Offline marcwordsmith

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Seed article to be published/Help needed!
« on: November 23, 2006, 03:24:24 PM »
Dear friends (and adversaries and neutral parties),

My online essay about the Seed (www.insidersview.info/theseed) will be published in an abridged form in January, 2007, in THE SUN magazine (www.thesunmagazine.org). Also, in that same issue, they'll publish an interview I did earlier this year with Maia Szalavitz, author of "Help at any Cost."

I need a little help.

 I wrote, in the introduction to my essay about the Seed:

"The Seed was highly publicized, and the attention eventually proved destructive to for the program. In 1974 the U.S. Senate published a study that accused the Seed of using methods similar to North Korean communist brainwashing techniques. The bad press, in conjunction with lawsuits, forced the Seed to scale back its operations dramatically. By the 1980s, the Seed had shrunk to a small fraction of its former size, and was only permitted to accept voluntary ?clients? who were at least 18 years of age. The Seed endured in this diminished capacity until it finally closed in 2001."

Now, I'm clear about the 1974 U.S. Senate study, and that The Seed shut down for good in '01.

What I'm not entirely sure about is the in-between. Is the following statement accurate?

"By the 1980s, the Seed had shrunk to a small fraction of its former size, and was only permitted to accept voluntary ?clients? who were at least 18 years of age."

Ginger, Greg, Stripe, anyone . . . please let me know. Maybe I should say "By the LATE 1980s . . ."?

Also, I just did a review of all the topic thread titles on this forum, and I saw some discussion of lawsuits about mistreatment (usually medical negligence) of particular kids.
But am I right to say that "lawsuits" are part of what forced the Seed to scale down?

I REALLY appreciate the help! Thank you in advance.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2006, 09:36:44 AM »
Awesome Mark!

Let me think about your questions.  I am not aware, personally, of any lawsuits that forced the seed to shut down.

Also, I know that the Seed was only publically taking over 18 kids, but I have been told (which is purely anecedotal) that there was the occasional under 18 kid being admitted.  I am not sure "permitted" is the correct word, but rather I think it was an internal decision.

I also think your statement," by the 1980s" is essentially correct given the 1973/74 size of the group.

Marc, with the limited availability of information coming out of the Seed, perhaps just a quick perusal of the forum topics of the 80s guy would help. Anyone who was around during that period of time, your help would be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

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Seed article to be published/Help needed!
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2006, 01:26:45 AM »
I can tell you that in late `80, they wouldn't take me. I had run away because I got wind that my mom was trying to get me in there. And they found an empty, but pungent smelling baggie under my mattress. I never got any real reliable answers when I asked why that happened. My mom told me it was because of Art's rule against taking anybody who had been through other rehabs; citing all of my contact w/ the Seed since age 6. Basically, that I already knew the program frontward and backward and so it wouldn't work on me. Sounds to me like a cover story w/ other fringe benefits. John told me when I talked to him that it was because I didn't need it.

Who knows what to believe, though, considering the cloistered sources who would know one or another compartmentalized version of these events?

That's the story, imo. Not what precisely happened in any one instance, but the extreme difficulty, even all these years later, sorting it out for ourselves. Never mind the clusterfuck mental state this kind of situation creates while you're bobbing in it for years.
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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline marcwordsmith

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Seed article to be published/Help needed!
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2006, 04:32:09 PM »
Thanks Greg and Ginger! Hmm . . . an ambiguous situation . . . I will take your advice, Greg, and peruse The 80s Guy on this forum.

My wife and I just got back from a Thanksgiving weekend away. It's Sunday here, about 1:30 p.m. I'm going to try and "put this to bed" before I go to bed tonight!

Wish me luck!
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2006, 04:58:29 PM »
Good luck
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Offline marcwordsmith

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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2006, 05:51:18 PM »
thanks for the "luck" Ginger.

Well, I've searched the 80's guy's posts and haven't found what I need yet.

But what do you think of the following? Is this "safe" to say?

"The Seed was highly publicized, and the attention eventually proved destructive to for the program. In 1974 the U.S. Senate published a study that accused the Seed of using methods similar to North Korean communist brainwashing techniques. The bad press, in conjunction with lawsuits, forced the Seed to scale back its operations dramatically. GRADUALLY, the Seed shrank to a small fraction of its former size, and was only permitted to accept voluntary ?clients? who were at least 18 years of age. The Seed endured in this diminished capacity until it finally closed in 2001."
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Offline marcwordsmith

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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2006, 06:14:18 PM »
Then again, maybe I had it right in the first place. The following is from thestraights.com

By 1975 Barker had opened four expansion Seeds, but in 1974 both houses of the US Congress had investigated The Seed and produced critical reports with the US Senate likening Barker's methods to the brainwashing methods employed on American POWs by North Korean Communists. The Senate forced NIDA to require Seed clients to sign a "risk to human  subjects" form as required by NIDA's own policy for grants involving human experimentation. Barker balked at this and lost his bid for an additional federal grant for expansion.  . . .
Barker said that he could not comply with the new state regulations (one can only guess what he objected to) and on October 13, 1975 he lost his license to operate the founding Seed program. [Soon afterwards Barker got his license re-instated to operate a drug rehab apparently for adults-only (18 and above). He is still in operation to treat adults, but if you check with the Office of Children and Families I think they may tell you he is also licensed to treat adolescents.]"

So then, it sounds like, from this, the Seed was required to go to an "only 18 or over" policy from the mid-70s on. Yet the Cleveland Seed was a late 70s phenomenon, wasn't it? And they took adolescents. Hmmm . . .

ANYWAY . . . new question: What's this about FOUR expansion Seeds? I only knew of Dade and St. Pete, in addition to the original one in Ft. Lauderdale.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2006, 06:38:43 PM »
I just don't know what is accurate.  Did they relicense that way, or did the intentionally relicense that way, or did they just have an internal directive not to take 18 year olds?

I think, without further verification, just saying they officially stopped taking people under 18 is the most accurate thing to say.

Good luck Marc!
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Offline marcwordsmith

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Seed article to be published/Help needed!
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2006, 07:04:39 PM »
Thanks, Greg.

Here's where I'm at now, and what I feel good about committing to print:

"The Seed was highly publicized, and the attention eventually proved destructive for the program. In 1974 the U.S. Senate published a study that accused the Seed of using methods similar to North Korean communist brainwashing techniques. The bad press, in conjunction with legal pressure from the National Institute on Drug Abuse and curtailing of federal funding, forced the Seed to scale back its operations dramatically. By the late 1970s, the Seed had shrunk to a small fraction of its former size, and was only admitting voluntary ?clients? who were at least 18 years of age. The Seed endured in this diminished capacity until it finally closed in 2001."

By the way, I just noticed that I'm not even officially "a regular around here" yet.  What's up with that? I've been around since 2002; I think that counts for something!! I posted on the original "The Seed Sucks" thread!!

But I need to post four more times before I become a Fornits olcomer, so to speak. Whatever!

 :D
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Offline Antigen

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Seed article to be published/Help needed!
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2006, 08:25:55 PM »
Quote from: ""marcwordsmith""
But I need to post four more times before I become a Fornits olcomer, so to speak. Whatever!

 :D


Well then! If you're going to use that kind of language!

Seriously, though, I think Wes has the documentation on licensing changes.
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Offline Johnny G

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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2006, 02:36:27 PM »
"... only permitted to accept voluntary ?clients? who were at least 18 years of age. "

The cleveland seed had quite a few under 18 "clients" when they closed in late 1978

G
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Offline marcwordsmith

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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2006, 02:40:59 PM »
Thanks Johnny G. You know, I realized that after my last post. The Cleveland Seed took adolescents, and when it closed in late '78, many of those younger Seedlings actually got transferred to Fort Lauderdale. So I changed my wording again to "By the 1980s . . ."

Thanks again. I really appreciate your helping me to be as accurate as possible. It's so important to get everything right, because if I get even one detail wrong, there goes all my credibility.
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Offline Stripe

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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2006, 03:56:45 PM »
Marc,

I don't know anything about this 18 and over requirement.  If you need some help wading through the official Florida records for documentation, let me know. I'd be glad to do what I can to track down documents, etc. for you.  I know you are on a deadline, but I'd be glad to assist. I've got some stuff already I can send you on the corporate demise and and asset transfers if you want it.

Stripe
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Offline marcwordsmith

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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2006, 04:28:11 PM »
Thanks, Stripe. Sure, I'll take whatever you got. Presuming your email is still the same one I have, I just said the same thing in a private email.
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