Kids in Program Credible?

[Ursus]

If you read the survivors stories here on fornits many lack the natural details of life (they have been stripped from the readers view).

Do you believe there is some grand, super seekret conspiracy underfoot here on fornits? Some kind of special text editor (!) which reams anything innocuous from folks' posts?

"Natural details of life?" Come-on! If you're telling the story of some god-awful experience you had as a kid, do you or does anyone feel compelled to add some positive material "for balance?" Just how "natural" is it to describe being horrifically abused or raped while at program, and to finish off your tale with, "Oh, in case I forgot, they made really good coffee there."

Even someone who has never heard of programs before would never believe that every staff person is evil and abusive, yet that is how the stories are formulated here.  Many try to lead the readers to believe that they never met a good friend, enjoyed a certain meal, learned to enjoy writing during their time their, connected with a staff member, enjoyed snow for the first time etc.  Many of the stories lack credibility because of this.

I think your statement lacks a great deal of credibility given that I have never gotten the impression that anyone here has claimed that EVERY staff member is "evil and abusive." In fact, a fair number of posters have even pointed out that many of the younger staff, especially, get sucked into this binnis due to good intentions and genuine desire to help "troubled youth." Often those staff don't last very long, or, they change.

But again, why is it necessary to provide readers with the ENTIRE INVENTORY of all of one's experiences in program, when one most desires to share or discuss what one feels most strongly about?

And that is really the point, which you absolutely refuse to believe. When you have been seriously abused, let alone seriously abused during a critical period in the development of your self-identity, the memory of that abuse lingers louder and longer than any so-called positive aspects of that time. People usually have a far larger need to recover from trauma, than they do from enjoyable times!

If I was raped by my teacher at school and beaten I would be justified as saying I did not have a very good experience in highschool.  But if I went onto a web site and started writing my story explaining how every teacher is a rapist and I never met one friend in highschool, the food was horrible, everychild was raped, I never learned to read or write, I learned science but I dont credit the teachers for that, I eventually went to college but I dont credit the highschool for that, I did it in spite of them.  My story didnt include one positive aspect of my time in highschool then the whole story sinks and loses credibility.  I think many here on fornits spend so much energy trying to paint the industry as evil as possible that they forget to tell the whole story.

I can't even comment on that asshattery. It bears zero relation to fornits or reality in any universe that I can imagine.

[Ursus]

Even Holocaust survivors who suffered one of the greatest losses retell their stories with recounts of friendships made, guards who were kind to the children etc.

Are you serious?  :flame:

If you ever get a chance to visit Washington DC take some time out to visit the Holocaust Museum. Just walk thru the museum and read and listen, really listen. Listen to the words of the survivors and the tails of their experiences the loved ones the lose and the hardship they endured. You will not find one of them ever saying that all Germans are evil etc. They speak about the occurrences naturally. Life still occurs even under the most horrible circumstances.
If you read the survivors stories here on fornits many lack the natural details of life (they have been stripped from the readers view). Even someone who has never heard of programs before would never believe that every staff person is evil and abusive, yet that is how the stories are formulated here. Many try to lead the readers to believe that they never met a good friend, enjoyed a certain meal, learned to enjoy writing during their time their, connected with a staff member, enjoyed snow for the first time etc. Many of the stories lack credibility because of this.

If I was raped by my teacher at school and beaten I would be justified as saying I did not have a very good experience in highschool. But if I went onto a web site and started writing my story explaining how every teacher is a rapist and I never met one friend in highschool, the food was horrible, everychild was raped, I never learned to read or write, I learned science but I dont credit the teachers for that, I eventually went to college but I dont credit the highschool for that, I did it in spite of them. My story didnt include one positive aspect of my time in highschool then the whole story sinks and loses credibility. I think many here on fornits spend so much energy trying to paint the industry as evil as possible that they forget to tell the whole story.

I don´t need to go to any museum to learn about holocaust.
I wish I would not know so much about it.

I hope all parents looking for information will learn through this what kind of person you are, Whooter, because your argumentation is telling.

I don´t need to go to any museum to learn about  holocaust.  

You are too young to have experienced it first hand so you must be one of those people who wants to forget history and view museums as a waste of money.

I wish I would not know so much about it.

There are those people like yourself who wish they didnt know so much about the TTI.  But unlike yourself I think it is important to continue to educate people and bring them the facts about places whether it be a program in Utah or a Wilderness program in South Carolina.

I hope all parents looking for information will learn through this what kind of person you are, Whooter, because your argumentation is telling.

Thank you, Maruska, I think everyone can agree that I am open minded and sometime rely on the past to give me road signs for the future.  Whereas you like to just close your mind and pretend you know everything.

Wow. This whole interchange is very telling. Not sure who you are referring to, Whooter, when you state that "I think everyone can agree that I am open minded," but you are certainly not including me in your calculations!

[Whooter]

If you read the survivors stories here on fornits many lack the natural details of life (they have been stripped from the readers view).

Do you believe there is some grand, super seekret conspiracy underfoot here on fornits? Some kind of special text editor (!) which reams anything innocuous from folks' posts?

"Natural details of life?" Come-on! If you're telling the story of some god-awful experience you had as a kid, do you or does anyone feel compelled to add some positive material "for balance?" Just how "natural" is it to describe being horrifically abused or raped while at program, and to finish off your tale with, "Oh, in case I forgot, they made really good coffee there."

Even someone who has never heard of programs before would never believe that every staff person is evil and abusive, yet that is how the stories are formulated here.  Many try to lead the readers to believe that they never met a good friend, enjoyed a certain meal, learned to enjoy writing during their time their, connected with a staff member, enjoyed snow for the first time etc.  Many of the stories lack credibility because of this.

I think your statement lacks a great deal of credibility given that I have never gotten the impression that anyone here has claimed that EVERY staff member is "evil and abusive." In fact, a fair number of posters have even pointed out that many of the younger staff, especially, get sucked into this binnis due to good intentions and genuine desire to help "troubled youth." Often those staff don't last very long, or, they change.

But again, why is it necessary to provide readers with the ENTIRE INVENTORY of all of one's experiences in program, when one most desires to share or discuss what one feels most strongly about?

And that is really the point, which you absolutely refuse to believe. When you have been seriously abused, let alone seriously abused during a critical period in the development of your self-identity, the memory of that abuse lingers louder and longer than any so-called positive aspects of that time. People usually have a far larger need to recover from trauma, than they do from enjoyable times!

If I was raped by my teacher at school and beaten I would be justified as saying I did not have a very good experience in highschool.  But if I went onto a web site and started writing my story explaining how every teacher is a rapist and I never met one friend in highschool, the food was horrible, everychild was raped, I never learned to read or write, I learned science but I dont credit the teachers for that, I eventually went to college but I dont credit the highschool for that, I did it in spite of them.  My story didnt include one positive aspect of my time in highschool then the whole story sinks and loses credibility.  I think many here on fornits spend so much energy trying to paint the industry as evil as possible that they forget to tell the whole story.

I can't even comment on that asshattery. It bears zero relation to fornits or reality in any universe that I can imagine.

I think maybe you cannot see it because you have been reading here on fornits for a long time.  Sometimes it is a good idea to flip the situation over and take a look at it from a different perspective.

Imagine that you were talking to a child who attended a program 20 years ago and they said it was one of the the best memories they have.  The food was better than home..... all the staff were nice and the classrooms were clean and they advanced 2 grades during their years spent there.  You ask if there was anything bad that occurred during their stay their and they reply "No, the whole experience was great even the beds were comfortable, I cant think of anything negative about the place".

Wouldnt this raise a flag for you?  Wouldnt you expect some negativity like they were pissed because they couldnt call their friends or go to the mall on weekends?  Have more control over their clothes?  Its natural to speak about good and bad.  Something more balanced should come out over time we would expect.



...

[heretik]

If you read the survivors stories here on fornits many lack the natural details of life (they have been stripped from the readers view).

Do you believe there is some grand, super seekret conspiracy underfoot here on fornits? Some kind of special text editor (!) which reams anything innocuous from folks' posts?

"Natural details of life?" Come-on! If you're telling the story of some god-awful experience you had as a kid, do you or does anyone feel compelled to add some positive material "for balance?" Just how "natural" is it to describe being horrifically abused or raped while at program, and to finish off your tale with, "Oh, in case I forgot, they made really good coffee there."

Even someone who has never heard of programs before would never believe that every staff person is evil and abusive, yet that is how the stories are formulated here.  Many try to lead the readers to believe that they never met a good friend, enjoyed a certain meal, learned to enjoy writing during their time their, connected with a staff member, enjoyed snow for the first time etc.  Many of the stories lack credibility because of this.

I think your statement lacks a great deal of credibility given that I have never gotten the impression that anyone here has claimed that EVERY staff member is "evil and abusive." In fact, a fair number of posters have even pointed out that many of the younger staff, especially, get sucked into this binnis due to good intentions and genuine desire to help "troubled youth." Often those staff don't last very long, or, they change.

But again, why is it necessary to provide readers with the ENTIRE INVENTORY of all of one's experiences in program, when one most desires to share or discuss what one feels most strongly about?

And that is really the point, which you absolutely refuse to believe. When you have been seriously abused, let alone seriously abused during a critical period in the development of your self-identity, the memory of that abuse lingers louder and longer than any so-called positive aspects of that time. People usually have a far larger need to recover from trauma, than they do from enjoyable times!

If I was raped by my teacher at school and beaten I would be justified as saying I did not have a very good experience in highschool.  But if I went onto a web site and started writing my story explaining how every teacher is a rapist and I never met one friend in highschool, the food was horrible, everychild was raped, I never learned to read or write, I learned science but I dont credit the teachers for that, I eventually went to college but I dont credit the highschool for that, I did it in spite of them.  My story didnt include one positive aspect of my time in highschool then the whole story sinks and loses credibility.  I think many here on fornits spend so much energy trying to paint the industry as evil as possible that they forget to tell the whole story.

I can't even comment on that asshattery. It bears zero relation to fornits or reality in any universe that I can imagine.

I think maybe you cannot see it because you have been reading here on fornits for a long time.  Sometimes it is a good idea to flip the situation over and take a look at it from a different perspective.

Imagine that you were talking to a child who attended a program 20 years ago and they said it was one of the the best memories they have.  The food was better than home..... all the staff were nice and the classrooms were clean and they advanced 2 grades during their years spent there.  You ask if there was anything bad that occurred during their stay their and they reply "No, the whole experience was great even the beds were comfortable, I cant think of anything negative about the place".

Wouldnt this raise a flag for you?  Wouldnt you expect some negativity like they were pissed because they couldnt call their friends or go to the mall on weekends?  Have more control over their clothes?  Its natural to speak about good and bad.  Something more balanced should come out over time we would expect.


...

I think maybe you cannot see it because you have been reading here on fornits for a long time.  Sometimes it is a good idea to flip the situation over and take a look at it from a different perspective.

You think, you think, you think....I think, I think, I think. You put so much emphasis on your (Whooter) cranium intellectual strength that you are not even able to galvanize a pure empathic response to a situation that screams for emotional feedback. This is what fornits is at it's essence, Emotions swirling around trying to connect so one can validate a very horrific abusive time.

Whooter, you are jack hammering a square peg into a round hole and you are hurting people in the process, with your detached (emotionally) quasi sensible arguments, you think have merit.

Sad part you know all this. The more I read and really open my eyes to your world (On Fornits) you really are a sociopath by the very literal definition. I am not playing games here nor trying to bash you either, just look up the definition in any encyclopedia or better yet sit down with any Psychiatrist an explain exactly what you have been doing for the past five years, be honest. Even if it came out that you do work for some corporation and you are a shill, you do understand there are consequences for impersonating or assimilating a separate personality. It becomes you. Ask JOM or anyone else who has worked undercover or assumed a separate personality.

There is another consequence, I know you are a spiritual man. I would hate to be in your shoes if your judgment day came and you had not asked for forgiveness for the sins you are committing here. You are tormenting souls, that have already walked/crawled through hell.
Shame on you

[Anne Bonney]

Very few kids do not do well and the overwhelming majority of the kids benefit greatly from their stay at a program.

Citation please.  And not a parental survey or the like.  Clinical, long term, OBJECTIVE studies.  Not some paper written by a college student.

Fornits does not represent your average cross section of kids who were sent to programs.

First, citation please.  Second, there are many reasons that kids don't want to even revisit those times or what happened to them in there.   Additionally, there is - even into adulthood - a small section of "devotees", not unlike Jim Jones.  Those people SWORE up and down that he was the real deal....that he had the "answer".  We all saw how that turned out.

 This is an entirely different culture here which has its own language and definitions and is not representative of the majority of survivors.

You keep spouting that but provide no evidence of it.  We've posted legitimate studies that have concluded that the type of "therapy" these kids are receiving, even today, is harmful to them.  Senator Sam Ervin saw it way back when with the Seed.  You can try and claim that things have changed since then but First, you provide no legitimate studies, Two, some are still brainwashed (Ervin's claim, not ours) and Three, many of them just want to forget the whole damn thing and try and pick up the pieces of their lives.

You would know this if you ever speak to a child who went to a program whether they did good or poorly they speak about the pros as well as the cons (they dont use the terms gulags, incarceration, kidnapping, isolation etc.).

I can't even begin to count the number of survivors (both pro and con) that use those terms.  And I noticed that you dropped your usual "brainwashing" since the Ervin post went up.

Here on fornits a reader rarely reads a post which speaks of nothing but the negative aspects of a program.
Do you see what I mean?

No.

If we spoke to a person “who did well” in a program then we would hear things like how they enjoyed the rafting trips and they learned to enjoy reading and met some great people.

Not only have I spoken with graduates that "did well", I'm also one of those who actually graduated from my program.  Yes, I did meet some great people there but they were clients, not staff.

1.If we only looked at fornits we would believe that all kids had to sit on church pews for 18 hours a day, will be abused and "will not do well".

The obvious reason for that is that, initially, this was set up as a board for kids who were abused in programs so you can't blame Fornits.

3.If we only looked at the programs feedback we would believe that “all kids do well” and get set on the right path.

Yes, if you only look at the marketing websites, most of whom are still 'washed'.  And that's truly sad.  Most of the kids I was in with and most of what I"m hearing about programs today, are so similar.  Break them down and build them up in YOUR vision, not theirs.

You're coming on to a site that is mainly populated by kids who were harmed by these schysters.  We suffered the abuse. You are looking in from the outside.  You got what you wanted, at first.  My Zappa signature explains this quite well.  The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

If you dont think that teenagers do not manipulate then you have never raised one. Try talking to a motivated kid who wants to meet their friends at the mall and their goal is to try to get you to give them your car keys lol. We have all been there.

Yes.....normal part of growing up and discovering that they have minds, thoughts, and values of their own that may be different from the parents - which makes the parents prime targets.  "Your kid will be deadinsaneorinjail" if you don't enroll him"

Many of the kids who were/are sent to programs have trust issues and is one of the reasons for their downfall,

And who's fault would that be?  Why should the kids be punished for poor parenting?

so add that to the fact that kids dont want to be in the program doing the hard work it is not a far stretch to think they will say anything to get themselves taken out of there.

First, most probably DON'T need to be there.  Second, these kids aren't getting the help they truly need (those that do actually need help).  Third, Spoken like a true TTIbot.  This is the mantra they've been selling for decades.

[Whooter]

Citation please. And not a parental survey or the like. Clinical, long term, OBJECTIVE studies. Not some paper written by a college student.

…and don’t forget individual posts on websites like fornits, they cant count either, right?

First, citation please. Second, there are many reasons that kids don't want to even revisit those times or what happened to them in there. Additionally, there is - even into adulthood - a small section of "devotees", not unlike Jim Jones. Those people SWORE up and down that he was the real deal....that he had the "answer". We all saw how that turned out.

First, citation please. Second, there are many reasons that kids don't want to even revisit those times or what happened to them in there. Additionally, there is - even into adulthood - a small section of "devotees", not unlike Jim Jones. Those people SWORE up and down that he was the real deal....that he had the "answer". We all saw how that turned out.

There are people from all walks of life.  I am sure there are people who would log onto fornits and post some bogus story about being abused in a program just for kicks.  But I don’t think these people represent the average poster.

You keep spouting that but provide no evidence of it. We've posted legitimate studies that have concluded that the type of "therapy" these kids are receiving, even today, is harmful to them. Senator Sam Ervin saw it way back when with the Seed. You can try and claim that things have changed since then but First, you provide no legitimate studies, Two, some are still brainwashed (Ervin's claim, not ours) and Three, many of them just want to forget the whole damn thing and try and pick up the pieces of their lives.

Its all outdated Anne and doesn’t apply here.   We have reviewed studies here on fornits that were conducted over the past decade which tell a different story.   As far as the language goes we already covered this.  People outside fornits don’t just throw around words like gulage and kidnapping to embellish their stories of being in a program.  I know this first hand.

I can't even begin to count the number of survivors (both pro and con) that use those terms. And I noticed that you dropped your usual "brainwashing" since the Ervin post went up.

No, I include Brainwashing, notice the etc. at the end of the list.  I must have missed the Ervin post (or forgotten it)  so I don’t know what you are referring to.

The obvious reason for that is that, initially, this was set up as a board for kids who were abused in programs so you can't blame Fornits.

I am not blaming fornits.  Fornits is defined by their posters (you and I).

Yes, if you only look at the marketing websites, most of whom are still 'washed'. And that's truly sad. Most of the kids I was in with and most of what I"m hearing about programs today, are so similar. Break them down and build them up in YOUR vision, not theirs.

You're coming on to a site that is mainly populated by kids who were harmed by these schysters. We suffered the abuse. You are looking in from the outside. You got what you wanted, at first. My Zappa signature explains this quite well. The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house. ~~ Frank Zappa

Your Zappa quote is applied to whoever you choose to apply it to. That’s your choice.   I personally don’t believe his quote.  Maybe he was referring to the group of people he hung around with.

Yes.....normal part of growing up and discovering that they have minds, thoughts, and values of their own that may be different from the parents - which makes the parents prime targets. "Your kid will be deadinsaneorinjail" if you don't enroll him"

Some kids do die and end up in jail if we sit back and do nothing.  You must know this too.

And who's fault would that be? Why should the kids be punished for poor parenting?

Why are you still blaming your parents because of your trust issues

First, most probably DON'T need to be there.

Citation, I need a long term clinical study that has been presented to the American Psychiatric association and embraced by at least 4 medical fields and printed on medium/fine 8X12 paper. lol

Second, these kids aren't getting the help they truly need (those that do actually need help).

Yes they are.

Third, Spoken like a true TTIbot. This is the mantra they've been selling for decades.

I must have missed this, citation please.



...

[Anne Bonney]

…and don’t forget individual posts on websites like fornits, they cant count either, right?

Which is a message board, not a clinical study like the ones that have been done on 'confrontational therapy' etc. that show that is doesn't help and often does more damage.  I've cited them for you countless times so I'm sure you'll be able to pull them up.

There are people from all walks of life.  I am sure there are people who would log onto fornits and post some bogus story about being abused in a program just for kicks.  But I don’t think these people represent the average poster.

It's a message board, originally set up to provide support for survivors.  You keep trying to compare apples to oranges.  You can leave at any time you wish.  The kids cannot.

Its all outdated Anne and doesn’t apply here.

It may be old, but it's most certainly not outdated.  The fact is that what they did to us and are still doing to other kids has many, MANY similarities to programs.

 We have reviewed studies here on fornits that were conducted over the past decade which tell a different story.

 

Those parental 'exit surveys'?    That's not a study.  

As far as the language goes we already covered this.  People outside fornits don’t just throw around words like gulage and kidnapping to embellish their stories of being in a program.  I know this first hand.

You used to include brainwashing in that but since the Ervin report came out I see you've dropped that.

No, I include Brainwashing, notice the etc. at the end of the list.  I must have missed the Ervin post (or forgotten it)  so I don’t know what you are referring to.

How convenient.

I am not blaming fornits.  Fornits is defined by their posters (you and I).

Ok. So you can't blame the posters here who, by your own account, are mostly survivors.

Some kids do die and end up in jail if we sit back and do nothing.  You must know this too.

Yes, but not for the normal adolescent breaking away from the parents behavior, which is why most of these kids are shipped off, IMO.

Why are you still blaming your parents because of your trust issues

Because they broke the trust when they sent me off to a wannabe guru who was a Malignant Narcissist.

Second, these kids aren't getting the help they truly need (those that do actually need help).

Yes they are.

Citation please.  You're the one saying that these places are effective.  The burden of proof is on you and those claiming so.  Please give me a clinical, longitudinal, peer reviewed study that says they're effective.

[Ursus]

No, I include Brainwashing, notice the etc. at the end of the list.  I must have missed the Ervin post (or forgotten it)  so I don’t know what you are referring to.

Well, now... wouldn't want ya to miss that one, eh?  

Here's the thread; links to the original doc (in pdf and scribd.com formats) a coupla posts in:

• 1974 U.S. Senate report on Behavior Modification (The Seed)
  viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31751

[Whooter]

Which is a message board, not a clinical study like the ones that have been done on 'confrontational therapy' etc. that show that is doesn't help and often does more damage. I've cited them for you countless times so I'm sure you'll be able to pull them up.

The most recent studies indicate that programs are up to 85% successful up to a year after graduation.

It's a message board, originally set up to provide support for survivors. You keep trying to compare apples to oranges. You can leave at any time you wish. The kids cannot.

I am not comparing anything.  All I am saying is we need to look at all the information (not just fornits).  There are people who tell their story on alumni sites.  There are surveys that are done.  There are studies which included a 1,000 graduates and their parents.  None of these are clinical studies but they are all information.  They all need to be looked at.

It may be old, but it's most certainly not outdated. The fact is that what they did to us and are still doing to other kids has many, MANY similarities to programs.

There may be similarities but for the most part they are vastly different.

Those parental 'exit surveys'? That's not a study.

Fornits isn’t a study either, but it is information.  We cant just discard your personal account of your time in straight because it isn’t clinically certified can we?

You used to include brainwashing in that but since the Ervin report came out I see you've dropped that.

I have no idea what you are talking about, Anne.  Include brainwashing where?  If you think I believe kids are being brainwashed in programs today then the answer is no I don’t.

Ok. So you can't blame the posters here who, by your own account, are mostly survivors

I don’t like to blame anyone.

Yes, but not for the normal adolescent breaking away from the parents behavior, which is why most of these kids are shipped off, IMO.

A very small minority of kids are placed in programs who should not be there IMO.

Because they broke the trust when they sent me off to a wannabe guru who was a Malignant Narcissist.

Sometimes it is the kids who broke the trust and the parents had no choice but to get the child help.  We cant sit around and blame our parents for everything.  At some point people need to stand up and be accountable for their own actions.

Citation please. You're the one saying that these places are effective. The burden of proof is on you and those claiming so. Please give me a clinical, longitudinal, peer reviewed study that says they're effective.

I have presented studies here,Anne, they just don’t meet your standard.  Who has clinically approved your story?  Should we discard it because it is just hearsay?  How do we know any of the information on fornits is true?  Before asking me to supply clinical level data you should supply that level yourself.  
If you state these places are ineffective or abusive The burden of proof is on you and so far the only studies I have seen say that programs are effective and non abusive.
There have been many studies, surveys, posts which have been presented here on fornits.  Some of these studies have covered up to a 1,000 graduates of programs and they found the programs to be 85% successful after graduation.  This information was presented to the American Psychiatric Association.
We can all chose to accept or reject the study, but the information isn’t going to go away because you want something else.



...

[seamus]

Not while in the program, cause the whole "confidential " thing gets a lot of milage ,depending on who's using it.Used by the local monkeyfarm, its ultimately just a "divide and conquer" device,and besides the kids are all just "making it up" in order to "manipulate" the parents into withdrawing them . Right?   Then you got yer genuine Kool-Aid drinkers.....they aint credible either...untill the "Shine" wears off that is....till they really think about it .....and realize what a load of crap theyve swallowed,and at last......voila....the truth comes out.

If you dont think that teenagers do not manipulate then you have never raised one.  Try talking to a motivated kid who wants to meet their friends at the mall and their goal is to try to get you to give them your car keys lol.  We have all been there.  Many of the kids who were/are sent to programs have trust issues and is one of the reasons for their downfall, so add that to the fact that kids dont want to be in the program doing the hard work it is not a far stretch to think they will say anything to get themselves taken out of there.

Spoken like a true believer, Youve managed to prove my point, thank you
 

Speaking of "credible" why is it that someone who has NEVER sat on front row,never been belt-looped, and has no form of first hand knowledge, has anything in the same ballpark as credibility here? That is a seriously UN-qualified opinion. Like a blind man tryin to tell ya what blue is...... :nods:

If we can sit here and tolerate listening to posters here give there advice and input when they have never raised an at risk teen, placed a child in a program or owned a program, been a staff in a program, had a friend die in a program, had a friend do extremely well in a program then we can tolerate just about anyone, becuase everyone seems to be an expert here on just about every aspect of the TTI.

s

...

Spoken likk a miller lite

[Shadyacres]

Sometimes it is the kids who broke the trust and the parents had no choice but to get the child help.
...

Help, that is a strange word for psychologically and emotionally crippling "behavior modification", also known as "coercive mind control" or "coercive thought reform".  Did you know that the U.N. has recognized this as a form of torture?  Did you know that this is one of the "cruel and unusual" punishments that our corrections institutions are not allowed to practice on convicts?  Do you think you can find a dictionary with that definition of 'help' in it?

[Whooter]

No, I include Brainwashing, notice the etc. at the end of the list.  I must have missed the Ervin post (or forgotten it)  so I don’t know what you are referring to.

Well, now... wouldn't want ya to miss that one, eh?  

Here's the thread; links to the original doc (in pdf and scribd.com formats) a coupla posts in:

• 1974 U.S. Senate report on Behavior Modification (The Seed)
  viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31751

I think that Anne feels I changed my mind about brainwashing since that was posted.  The report is from the 1970's.  The seed is radically different than the programs of today (or at least the ones I am aware of).  

From what I have read the kids in the seed were not allowed to talk to old friends outside the program.  They were not focused on studying for their SATS and leaving the program to visit colleges, take AP courses.  The kids in the seed did play sports with local highschools and compete or go on white water rafting trips.  The seed and places like them would bring in the entire family and they had to buy into to whole thought process like it was a religion of some sort.  Some compared it to a cult.

The programs that I am familiar with work towards building self esteem, getting the kids grade point average up and improve their chances to get into a better school.  They work on improving relations between family members and strengthening the bond between them.  The parents would challenge some of the rules and methods and many times changes were made based on these requests.  If a child tried to run away more than once he/she would be kicked out.  The seed never did any of these things.  Brainwashing just cannot take hold in an environment like this.  Anyone who reads what is really required to attain complete compliance and brainwashing would quickly realize the programs of today dont maintain that type of environment.

I think Anne see similarities because they are both programs which house children but beyond that they don't have too much more in-common.



...

[Whooter]

Sometimes it is the kids who broke the trust and the parents had no choice but to get the child help.
...

Help, that is a strange word for psychologically and emotionally crippling "behavior modification", also known as "coercive mind control" or "coercive thought reform".  Did you know that the U.N. has recognized this as a form of torture?  Did you know that this is one of the "cruel and unusual" punishments that our corrections institutions are not allowed to practice on convicts?  Do you think you can find a dictionary with that definition of 'help' in it?

I have to agree with you Shady.  I think it should be considered torture.  If a person tried to use crippling mind control on anyone I knew or cared about I would sue the place or try to shut it down.  But utilizing behavior modification is helpful.  Anyone who has ever raised a child uses these techniques 24 hours a day.  Many people here on fornits confuse techniques used in North Korea (to brainwash people) with those of a simple housewife applying behavior modification techniques to her child.  There are similarities but one is abusive and harmful while the other is not.

It is a common scare tactic that many posters here use to scare parents and at the same time to try to maintain a connection to the seed of the 1970's and North Korea.



...

[Awake]

Well Whooter, there is no socially accepted definition of the point where mind control, thought reform, or ‘brainwashing’ crossed the line into what you call ‘crippling’ ‘abusive’ or ‘harmful’. So, in your opinion, what makes one program’s use of these techniques ‘good’ and another’s ‘bad’?

.

[slynch2112]

the overwhelming majority of the kids benefit greatly from their stay at a program.

How can you with your admittedly limited experience make such a claim? What data have you seen that would suggest this is true?

So I don’t expect you to embrace my outside information or anyone elses, but it doesn’t make it any less factual.



...

OK, for a balanced view. Last weekend we had our board retreat for CAFETY. We had the joy of having a parent at our retreat who sent thier child to what they thought was a normal boarding school. Her daughter wanted to go to boarding school for the experience, and her parents agreed.

Well what happened to her at this school was horrific. - same abuse , same stories, that we (that you practically call liars, or at least you insinuate that many of us are .... exagerrating our abuse, and how come almost everyone I was in group with at KIDS is out and claiming abuse? there are only a couple missing, and I think they just want to move on) have come forward about.

Its a nightmare for this woman, she was convinced by an educational consultant, who was given this kid's full information, knew she was a good kid, and had good grades, and was for all intents "normal and not troubled", and now, because of her experience at this TBS, she *is* troubled.

Thats scary.

My parents still claim "it did me good", and "I needed it" , and "they did their best", however I have had the same experience that everyone had, that Lulu C. and Rebecca E. successfully sued them for. I have tried to commit suicide at least once because I remembered a sexual assault in there, and then when I feel unsafe I start being paranoid and watching over my shoulder, and never knowing who might just "drag me back after all these years" (its not conscious, I just start feeling that way), which causes issues of course between myself and my partners.

So seriously? You want to insinuate we're lying, or at the very least exagerrating, and that somehow these schools and institutions are for the most part "doing a good job?" Come on.

As far as not knowing where to go, Phil Elberg says "I don't know where to tell people to go, but I do know, you don;t go to these places for help"

Come on. Who are you? (as far as I can tell, you're just a troll, I don;t know why people, including myself, humour you)