Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Apology)

[Samara]

You've got to be nuts, Whooter. Treat people how you want to be treated? You come here and lie outrageously and callously dismiss traumatic events in their lives. I guess that is how you want to be treated except most people have stronger fiber than that.  You are the antithesis of everything you claim to value in your post to Heretik.  I still can't get over how shamelessly you pull this "do as I say not as I do crap."   You must be laughing your ass over there.

[Shadyacres]

So, we have established that, as a rule, survivors do not lie, unlike program staff and supporters.  Whooter has repeatedly failed to cite any program survivor ever lying about their experiences.  Maybe Whooter will enlighten us as to why he consistently and stubbornly clings to his unjustifiable and unprovable position that survivors lie.

[Whooter]

So, we have established that, as a rule, survivors do not lie, unlike program staff and supporters.  Whooter has repeatedly failed to cite any program survivor ever lying about their experiences.  Maybe Whooter will enlighten us as to why he consistently and stubbornly clings to his unjustifiable and unprovable position that survivors lie.

I am not saying all survivors lie, but some do.  I am not sure why they do or if they lie at a higher rate than non survivors or program staff and supporters do.

Maybe you missed the post earlier but we had a survivor who indicated that he saw quite a bit of lying going on onside of programs.  We had a post by Gonzo who is a survivor also who supports that survivors have lied here on fornits.

BillS (also a survivor who attended 2 Aspen programs for 4 years) recently posted:

Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.

Link



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[Shadyacres]

So, we have established that, as a rule, survivors do not lie, unlike program staff and supporters.  Whooter has repeatedly failed to cite any program survivor ever lying about their experiences.  Maybe Whooter will enlighten us as to why he consistently and stubbornly clings to his unjustifiable and unprovable position that survivors lie.

I am not saying all survivors lie, but some do.  I am not sure why they do or if they lie at a higher rate than non survivors or program staff and supporters do.

Maybe you missed the post earlier but we had a survivor who indicated that he saw quite a bit of lying going on onside of programs.  We had a post by Gonzo who is a survivor also who supports that survivors have lied here on fornits.

BillS (also a survivor who attended 2 Aspen programs for 4 years) recently posted:

Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.

Link

...

The subjective third party opinion of an anonymous poster?  That's your proof?  An anonymous poster who obviously has nothing but contempt for his fellow students.  You are at risk of looking like a complete incompetent, Whooter.  If your position has any value at all it shouldn't be that hard to come up with a provable fabrication by a survivor.

[Whooter]

The subjective third party opinion of an anonymous poster?  That's your proof?

Pretty much all of the survivors stories on fornits are anonymous.

An anonymous poster who obviously has nothing but contempt for his fellow students.

We have anonymous posters who have contempt for their programs.  Do this mean that these posters stories are invalid?  I think you are starting to think that maybe we should only accept survivor stories as accurate which come from those who have a balanced view of the industry and which do not hold contempt for the industry as this may cause bias or reason to embellish or lie.

You are at risk of looking like a complete incompetent, Whooter.  If your position has any value at all it shouldn't be that hard to come up with a provable fabrication by a survivor.

I have shown that survivors do lie.  I know that you dont like it.  But do you really expect to make readers believe that survivors are the only segment of society which do not contain members who lie?  Pretty far fetched to me, especially with the evidence that I have provided with utilizing the fornits database only.



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[Froderik]

>YAWN<

[heretik]

Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)

Postby Shadyacres » Today, 8:20 am
So, we have established that, as a rule, survivors do not lie, unlike program staff and supporters. Whooter has repeatedly failed to cite any program survivor ever lying about their experiences. Maybe Whooter will enlighten us as to why he consistently and stubbornly clings to his unjustifiable and unprovable position that survivors lie.

Well then I say this is a wrap then. Good work everyone. Whooter, shame on you.

[Shadyacres]

The subjective third party opinion of an anonymous poster?  That's your proof?

Pretty much all of the survivors stories on fornits are anonymous.

An anonymous poster who obviously has nothing but contempt for his fellow students.

We have anonymous posters who have contempt for their programs.  Do this mean that these posters stories are invalid?  I think you are starting to think that maybe we should only accept survivor stories as accurate which come from those who have a balanced view of the industry and which do not hold contempt for the industry as this may cause bias or reason to embellish or lie.

You are at risk of looking like a complete incompetent, Whooter.  If your position has any value at all it shouldn't be that hard to come up with a provable fabrication by a survivor.

I have shown that survivors do lie.  I know that you dont like it.  But do you really expect to make readers believe that survivors are the only segment of society which do not contain members who lie?  Pretty far fetched to me, especially with the evidence that I have provided with utilizing the fornits database only.

...

So, just to clarify, survivors are human beings.  Human beings lie.  Therefore program survivors must be lying if they said they were abused.  Is that about right?  You haven't shown squat, as usual, your "evidence" is nonexistent.  If anything, you just showed that billS (whoever he is) thinks that his fellow students lied about pretty much everything.  Your presence here is sufficient proof that program advocates troll these forums, so how are we to know that billS isn't one of your buddies?  He has overt contempt for teens who failed to blindly follow the program, and feels, like you do, that this failure to blindly follow somehow indicates a lack of character, a lack of effort.  If he and his story are real, it just means that the coercive thought reform has not worn off yet.

[Whooter]

So, just to clarify, survivors are human beings. Human beings lie. Therefore program survivors must be lying if they said they were abused. Is that about right?

No, I didn’t say that.  I never said that survivors must be lying if they said they were abused.  You made that up.

You haven't shown squat, as usual, your "evidence" is nonexistent. If anything, you just showed that billS (whoever he is) thinks that his fellow students lied about pretty much everything.

BillS is telling us his account inside the program like any other survivor does here on fornits.  If you are saying that we should not believe all the survivor stories then I would have to disagree with you.  

Your presence here is sufficient proof that program advocates troll these forums, so how are we to know that billS isn't one of your buddies? He has overt contempt for teens who failed to blindly follow the program, and feels, like you do, that this failure to blindly follow somehow indicates a lack of character, a lack of effort. If he and his story are real, it just means that the coercive thought reform has not worn off yet.

Following along your thinking, how do we know that these other survivor stories are not just fabricated ,in the same way you describe, by anti-program people who have contempt for programs and blindly follow in lockstep the belief that all programs are abusive and not one child has ever done well?
Why do you try to discredit a fellow survivor because they have a different view?



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[Anne Bonney]

Maybe you missed the post earlier but we had a survivor who indicated that he saw quite a bit of lying going on onside of programs.  We had a post by Gonzo who is a survivor also who supports that survivors have lied here on fornits.

BillS (also a survivor who attended 2 Aspen programs for 4 years) recently posted:

Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.

Link

You keep posting that as proof that survivors lie about being abused.  What that says up there, to me, is that they lied INSIDE the program to get away from the abuse!  I lied my ass off INSIDE the program because I HAD to!  The "stories" I told about "my past" weren't "bad" enough for them so I'd get confronted for "not being honest" (even though I absolutely was) so, I began to make up these horrible things I had supposedly done "in my past" to get the fuckers to stop attacking and confronting me.  I also saw kid fake being sick INSIDE.....to get the hell out of group for a while cuz they were going nuts!  That appears to be what "Bill" is talking about, yet here we are again with you spinning it into that he's saying that survivors are lying NOW!

Does it EVER end with you?

And your comment to Psy about 'damage control'.......holy shit....talk about pot/kettle.  He's got your number and you know it!

You've got literally thousands of posts to pull from and you can't find one.

Actually, it's more like hundreds of thousands.

Let me dumb it down a bit for you, here's what I'm looking for:

A post made by a survivor told in the 1st person about an experience claiming to be abused, only to later be shown to be a lie. All you keep doing is posting references to lies, but no specifics. I would have thought as much as your prattle on about this you would have at least one smoking gun.

Let me know what you come up with.

He'll come up with statements of hyperbole and evaluative opinion like "kidnapping"and present them as false statements of fact, and he'll quote people like Gonzotherapy completely out of context to the point where it more or less changes the meaning.  He'll also likely quote some fake survivor's account of the program and how wonderful it is.

He undersands evaluative opinion, or should, and yet continues to call kidnapping a lie.  Nobody is arguing that

Here's what Whooter does:  If I were to go on a long discussion about brainwashing and end it off with "i was raped" where it was clear I was referring to brainwashing by surrounding context, as has been done elsewhere on the forum, he would cut that one statement out of context, call it a lie (when it would be evaluative opinion), and parade it around the forum as an example of how survivors lie. Now we all know that his twisting of other people's words is completely intentional but that's impossible to prove as you'd have to show his state of mind.

Whooter wrote

I see what you are trying to say, psy, But I don’t agree that kidnapping can just be a matter of opinion. If we accepted this then how would we standardize and understand description from survivors here?

The use of the word "Kidnapping" is not meant to deceive and you know it.  In context it's clearly descriptive of an escort service, even to people reading here for the first time.  It's opinion, not fact, it's a descriptive label, not a legal term.  The fact that a person says "I was kidnapped and brought to a program" makes it VERY clear that this was done with parental consent and the word kidnapping refers to what you call an escort service. Which in my view, is less accurate term to describe what they do.  "Escort" implies something voluntary.  Likewise with "transport service" which makes it seem as if a package is being shipped.  Big burly men bursting into a room at night, putting teens in restraints, dragging them out the door to the car and driving them across state lines sounds a lot more like kidnapping to me than it does "escorting" or "transporting".

They could just as easily say making their bed in the morning was abuse and torture or that being forced to go to school was brainwashing. They could justify their words by saying it felt like torture or abuse or brainwashing

First: if they did it would be clear it was hyperbole/evaluative opinion and not a lie.  "This music is torture" for example, is not meant to be taken literally.

Secondly: to my knowledge, nobody has ever tried to pass making their bed or going to school in a program as torture. You are intentionally trivializing and obfuscating very real and very severe incidents of abuse by making it sound like survivors are whiny, spoilt, brats who exaggerate habitually.  Like Frederick and others noted.  Nobody has to exaggerate and if anything, they sometimes leave the worst bits out for fear they won't be believed.

[Shadyacres]

So, just to clarify, survivors are human beings. Human beings lie. Therefore program survivors must be lying if they said they were abused. Is that about right?

No, I didn’t say that.  I never said that survivors must be lying if they said they were abused.  You made that up.

No, you did; Whooter wrote:" But do you really expect to make readers believe that survivors are the only segment of society which do not contain members who lie?"

You haven't shown squat, as usual, your "evidence" is nonexistent. If anything, you just showed that billS (whoever he is) thinks that his fellow students lied about pretty much everything.

BillS is telling us his account inside the program like any other survivor does here on fornits.  If you are saying that we should not believe all the survivor stories then I would have to disagree with you.  

Well, yes, but the part you quoted was his opinion, not a factual account of events.

Your presence here is sufficient proof that program advocates troll these forums, so how are we to know that billS isn't one of your buddies? He has overt contempt for teens who failed to blindly follow the program, and feels, like you do, that this failure to blindly follow somehow indicates a lack of character, a lack of effort. If he and his story are real, it just means that the coercive thought reform has not worn off yet.

Following along your thinking, how do we know that these other survivor stories are not just fabricated ,in the same way you describe, by anti-program people who have contempt for programs and blindly follow in lockstep the belief that all programs are abusive and not one child has ever done well?

We know this because our side does not use brainwashing techniques that have been condemned by the U.N., among other reasons.

Why do you try to discredit a fellow survivor because they have a different view?
...

I am not questioning him, exactly, I am questioning his current mental health.  I already know about yours.

[Froderik]

[Anne Bonney]

 :tup:



P.S. & totally off topic.......Your wife is an awesome lady!!

[Whooter]

And your comment to Psy about 'damage control'.......holy shit....talk about pot/kettle.

Exactly.  How many times have I heard you say I was doing “Damage Control”?  Now that the shoe is on the other foot all of a sudden the term doesn’t apply?  
I enjoy watching the double standard play out here on fornits sometimes, Anne.  I added it for Grins.

You keep posting that as proof that survivors lie about being abused.

I never said I had proof that survivors lie about being abused.  It was "why do survivors lie".  This lead to the discussion that if they are willing to lie about one thing then how are we to know where the truth ends and the lies begin?
Do you see what I mean?



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[Shadyacres]

And your comment to Psy about 'damage control'.......holy shit....talk about pot/kettle.

Exactly.  How many times have I heard you say I was doing “Damage Control”?  Now that the shoe is on the other foot all of a sudden the term doesn’t apply?  
I enjoy watching the double standard play out here on fornits sometimes, Anne.  I added it for Grins.

You keep posting that as proof that survivors lie about being abused.

I never said I had proof that survivors lie about being abused.  It was "why do survivors lie".  This lead to the discussion that if they are willing to lie about one thing then how are we to know where the truth ends and the lies begin?
Do you see what I mean?
...

You lied about having a son, why should we believe anything you say?  You have been proven to be a liar, unlike most of us here.  If you are willing to lie about one thing then how are we to know where the truth ends and the lies begin?  I think you need to stop being so manipulative and get honest with yourself about your stinkin' thinkin'.
Do you see what I mean?