Many Many Programs Abuse Kids

[Anne Bonney]

Anne Bonney wrote:
When you really start reading up on that shit, you find out how similar it is to the way programs work. You also find out what an asshole this Ray guy is.

Ursus wrote:
Yep. Thanks for reminding me. This subject also comes up in the aparently, adults want to go to programs too thread, which is about the tragic incidents (including deaths) which occurred during James Ray's "Spiritual Warrior" retreat last year.

Here Danny discusses other experiential workshops he admires or has attended:
Originally posted on 20 Jun 2010:

Whooter wrote:[/u]
Perhaps the most important piece of etiquette is gratitude. It is important to be thankful to the purpose of the sweat, the people joining you in the lodge, and those helping to support the sweat lodge.

Ursus wrote:
The going "gratitude" for James Arthur Ray's "Spiritual Warrior" retreat, which was supposed to "absolutely change your life," and of which this sweat experience was part of, was roughly $9000. I believe that sums up to a gross of well over half a million $$$.

Whooter wrote:[/u]
You need to consider the guys expenses before judging him.  Although they are paying $9,000 a piece, you need to consider that  the program lasts for several days at a time and they have to feed and lodge these 70 or so people.  So Mr. Ray is kept very busy unless he hires help, which doesn’t come cheap.  Say 10 people, to help out,   at $15/hour, 10 hours a day for 3 days.  That’s $4,500 he needs to pay his employees in salary for the 3 days.  Say $5 dollars per meal @ 3 meals per day.. that totals $3,100 (maybe $10/meal thats $6,200) for the 3 days.  The sweat lodge must cost a few hundred dollars a month to maintain.  He probably donates a few thousand to local charities every summer.. sponsors a kids baseball team, donations to the local police drive, picks up the tab for a big part of the local town mayors campaign expenses, which can be overwhelming for a small town mayor who has to work a second job to keep things going with 2 kids facing college.
So he grosses $630,000 for a 3 day weekend and pays out about $10,000 in expenses.  He doesn’t have to work every weekend during the year to make a decent living.
You really cant get too pissed at Mr. Ray because if you really think about it after a few years it must get pretty tiresome sitting in a hot sweaty tent with 70 people (weekend after weekend) trying to find themselves when you have an air conditioned villa in the Bahamas waiting for you on Tuesday night.  Who the hell would want to sit in a sweat lodge with these people once the checks cleared?


Danny wrote:[/u]
Dag'gum Whootie, smacks of American capitalism.
Anthony Robbins made a fortune in Bali and no I never attended.
Teminos Inc. out of San Francisco runs a 4 day workshop at $2500.00 a head, 200 people attend, 3 staff/owners administer and the other 30 are non-tendered past attendees. The net $500,000.00. Four days worth of work, 3 staff/owners split after expenses $425,000.00, thats $141,666.66 each. "They Get Paid".
Cherly, Joy and Eric actually run one of the best experiential workshops I've ever attended, though I did not have to pay.
I don't think I would give any company that runs experiential workshops $2500.00 for a weekend. Just sounds crazy to me.

Jeesh, if you read Ursus posts you would think I should be ashamed of my experiences of workshops, hell freaking no. I support many workshops 100%.

Yeah, we know.  It's very telling.  Programs, Stepcraft, LGATs, Guru chasing......most of us had had enough of thought reform bullshit by the time we'd left our respective programs, or at least found our way out of them within a decade.  Then there are people like you who just can't seem to get enough of it and chase after the latest "self help fad" and wannabe guru.  It's really weird.  :eek:

[Whooter]

I can't understand why Whooter concerns himself with others' "credibility" when Whooter made up his entire family story including inventing his children.  Whooter should be concerned about his own credibility, which is nil.

I am mainly concerned because of people like yourself who (self admittedly) embellish their stories to the point where it is difficult to separate what is true and what is placed in the story to gain attention.
Sometimes its difficult to separate the two.



...

[Anne Bonney]

I can't understand why Whooter concerns himself with others' "credibility" when Whooter made up his entire family story including inventing his children.  Whooter should be concerned about his own credibility, which is nil.

I am mainly concerned because of people like yourself who (self admittedly) embellish their stories to the point where it is difficult to separate what is true and what is placed in the story to gain attention.
Sometimes its difficult to separate the two.

So, the end justifies the mean, right?  

[Whooter]

I can't understand why Whooter concerns himself with others' "credibility" when Whooter made up his entire family story including inventing his children.  Whooter should be concerned about his own credibility, which is nil.

I am mainly concerned because of people like yourself who (self admittedly) embellish their stories to the point where it is difficult to separate what is true and what is placed in the story to gain attention.
Sometimes its difficult to separate the two.

So, the end justifies the mean, right?  

Well, he may take that point of view, but I think he lies to gain attention for himself.



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[Watchful Yeoman]

I can't understand why Whooter concerns himself with others' "credibility" when Whooter made up his entire family story including inventing his children.  Whooter should be concerned about his own credibility, which is nil.

I am mainly concerned because of people like yourself who (self admittedly) embellish their stories to the point where it is difficult to separate what is true and what is placed in the story to gain attention.
Sometimes its difficult to separate the two.



...

My "story" has never been posted here, so it couldn't have been embellished in any way, right?  Also, when I posted about "embellishing" I said I could see you maybe embellishing a little as most program parents do, but I was shocked to find out that you didn't "embellish" at all, you completely invented an entire family you never had.  I was surprised to learn you had done this.  I knew before you had embellished the "success" of your "daughter" when you admitted she went right back to drugs and her old friends and dropped out of highschool when she got home, but I didn't know you made up the daughter too!  I thought you just made up the "story" but not the characters as well.

[Whooter]

I can't understand why Whooter concerns himself with others' "credibility" when Whooter made up his entire family story including inventing his children.  Whooter should be concerned about his own credibility, which is nil.

I am mainly concerned because of people like yourself who (self admittedly) embellish their stories to the point where it is difficult to separate what is true and what is placed in the story to gain attention.
Sometimes its difficult to separate the two.



...

My "story" has never been posted here, so it couldn't have been embellished in any way, right?  Also, when I posted about "embellishing" I said I could see you maybe embellishing a little as most program parents do, but I was shocked to find out that you didn't "embellish" at all, you completely invented an entire family you never had.  I was surprised to learn you had done this.  I knew before you had embellished the "success" of your "daughter" when you admitted she went right back to drugs and her old friends and dropped out of highschool when she got home, but I didn't know you made up the daughter too!  I thought you just made up the "story" but not the characters as well.

When you made up all your education and posted it here on the forum it was an attempt to sway the readers and mislead them as to your expertise on the various subjects.  Why would you make something like that up?  Why not be honest and just tell people you had a high-school diploma or a little college.  I think you view this as embellishing but the rest of us readers view it as lying.  I think readers would have still respected your point of view if you had been honest about your education.  But now that you have been caught lying I cant see you maintaining the same credibility.  Unless of course you can explain why you lied.



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[Watchful Yeoman]

I never posted anything like that.  You just made all that up like you made up your family.

[Anne Bonney]

I never posted anything like that.  You just made all that up like you made up your family.

I've asked him several times to post the link to where he even THINKS that I "admitted that Straight was helpful and that I embellished my stories".  I've linked to the posts where I believed him to be lying - even if he doesn't agree, I made a good faith effort to back up my accusations and provided a link. He can't even do that and just cried something about how my links weren't proof, therefore he wasnt' going to even attempt to provide the link to where I supposedly said anything near what he claims I did.  That's spin and marketing 101(or by it's other term, "the Rove playbook").....turn it back around on the other guy.  Don't provide backup to your claims.  Project and accuse the other guy of what you're doing and, above all.....never, EVER admit 'defeat'.  Never EVER admit to getting caught.

[Watchful Yeoman]

Right, except he screwed up and openly admitted to making up his pretend family, so the cat's out of the bag.  The best he can do now is try to muddy the waters with fake quotes, conspiracy theories and continued lying.  I don't think anybody's buying what he's selling though.

[Whooter]

I never posted anything like that.  You just made all that up like you made up your family.

I've asked him several times to post the link to where he even THINKS that I "admitted that Straight was helpful and that I embellished my stories".  I've linked to the posts where I believed him to be lying - even if he doesn't agree, I made a good faith effort to back up my accusations and provided a link. He can't even do that and just cried something about how my links weren't proof, therefore he wasnt' going to even attempt to provide the link to where I supposedly said anything near what he claims I did.  That's spin and marketing 101(or by it's other term, "the Rove playbook").....turn it back around on the other guy.  Don't provide backup to your claims.  Project and accuse the other guy of what you're doing and, above all.....never, EVER admit 'defeat'.  Never EVER admit to getting caught.

Funny how that works, Anne, get mad at a someone for posting they had a son to protect a woman... then accept a post where a person pretend to be a survivor who was abused.  Hmmm....  You and DJ should try to get your strategy straightened out.  Its not working too well.



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[Anne Bonney]

I never posted anything like that.  You just made all that up like you made up your family.

I've asked him several times to post the link to where he even THINKS that I "admitted that Straight was helpful and that I embellished my stories".  I've linked to the posts where I believed him to be lying - even if he doesn't agree, I made a good faith effort to back up my accusations and provided a link. He can't even do that and just cried something about how my links weren't proof, therefore he wasnt' going to even attempt to provide the link to where I supposedly said anything near what he claims I did.  That's spin and marketing 101(or by it's other term, "the Rove playbook").....turn it back around on the other guy.  Don't provide backup to your claims.  Project and accuse the other guy of what you're doing and, above all.....never, EVER admit 'defeat'.  Never EVER admit to getting caught.

Funny how that works, Anne, get mad at a someone for posting they had a son to protect a woman... then accept a post where a person pretend to be a survivor who was abused.

Well, I've watched you pretend to be other people and I have been abused in much the same way that people describe here so......yeah.

 

Hmmm....  You and DJ should try to get your strategy straightened out.  Its not working too well.

So then, you still can't provide that link where you think I said anything close to what you claim I did?  That's ok......just admit it.  It's really not that big a deal....you were trying to make a point and it backfired.

[Watchful Yeoman]

Anne, get mad at a someone for posting they had a son to protect a woman

This is crazytalk.  How on earth can someone "protect a woman" by fabricating a family?  Whooter fabricated his family to push a viewpoint, not to "protect a woman."  That's ridiculous.  This argument was lost the second Whooter admitted to making up his fake family.  That case is now closed.

[Whooter]

Well, I've watched you pretend to be other people and I have been abused in much the same way that people describe here so......yeah.

I have watched posters like yourself claim up and down that they never lied on this forum.  I have seen posters claim they never posted as someone else or guest posted.  But it turned out to be very false.
So what am I to believe when you act in the very same way as those people I just described above.  Like your own way of thinking I need to believe that you are like them right?  Is that logical to you?



...

[Watchful Yeoman]

I fabricated a son

No need to wonder about the truth of that.  No doubt Whooter created a fake family.  I guess all he can do now is run around trying to say others are "liars" but there just happens to be no evidence of that so all that's left for the reader is the assertion of a guy who already admitted he "fabricated a son."  This is pretty cut and dried for the readers.

[Anne Bonney]

Well, I've watched you pretend to be other people and I have been abused in much the same way that people describe here so......yeah.

I have watched posters like yourself claim up and down that they never lied on this forum.  I have seen posters claim they never posted as someone else or guest posted.  But it turned out to be very false.

So point out where you think I lied then.

So what am I to believe when you act in the very same way as those people I just described above.  Like your own way of thinking I need to believe that you are like them right?  Is that logical to you?

Well, we're talking about me and you haven't provided any evidence whatsoever that I've lied in any way.