Author Topic: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry  (Read 4459 times)

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Offline Froderik

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Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2010, 12:31:24 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Froderik"

How about wrongful imprisonment / kidnapping?

Shit, man... so far, this "abuse" debate is fuckin' RETARDED.

Because they are drama phrases used here on fornits to keep the adrenaline going.  They dont exist in reality, Frod, we dont see to any false imprisonment or kidnapping charges brought against these places.

Yeah, like "we" should believe you... now that's funny!!

"We" see plenty, charges or no charges.

Go away, Whooter...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2010, 01:02:53 PM »
To the washed, programs are "the way, the truth and the light/life" and nothing will ever sway them from their mission.....to pass on that "way" to all the unfortunate masses that aren't blessed enough to have benefit of their wonderful 'lifesteps'.

This LGAT-type shit has infected the entire country and made maltreatment and abuse of kids in it's name, palatable.   To them the "end justifies the means" and they just know that they've found THE answer.  They're saving the children, dontchaknow, and as long as it 'helps' just ONE PERSON, it's all worth it to them.  The rest is collateral damage that deserved it anyway, according to their thinking.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Froderik

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Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2010, 01:23:18 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
To the washed, programs are "the way, the truth and the light/life" and nothing will ever sway them from their mission.....to pass on that "way" to all the unfortunate masses that aren't blessed enough to have benefit of their wonderful 'lifesteps'.

This LGAT-type shit has infected the entire country* and made maltreatment and abuse of kids in it's name, palatable.   To them the "end justifies the means" and they just know that they've found THE answer.  They're saving the children, dontchaknow, and as long as it 'helps' just ONE PERSON, it's all worth it to them.  The rest is collateral damage that deserved it anyway, according to their thinking.

 ::puke::  ::puke::  ::puke::

One more comment on a relatively minor point: I agree with the bolded* statement up there^, but I'm afraid it's infected more of the world than just this country, even...it's not unheard of elsewhere (according to some of the articles I've seen posted here, anyway)..

A good society is a program-free society.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Maximilian

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Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2010, 02:12:15 PM »
So it's society and the world that are wrong, and the ten or so enlightened people that post here, they are the only people to know the truth? Or could it perhaps be the other way around, that the world, and society is right, and the few disgruntled people posting here are incorrect. Hmm, I wonder which is could be?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2010, 02:26:41 PM »
Quote from: "Froderik"
One more comment on a relatively minor point: I agree with the bolded* statement up there^, but I'm afraid it's infected more of the world than just this country, even...it's not unheard of elsewhere (according to some of the articles I've seen posted here, anyway)..

A good society is a program-free society.

 Yeah, I agree.  It just seems more prevalent and accepted here, but that may just be because I haven't been overseas in a while to see for myself.


Quote from: "Maximilian"
So it's society and the world that are wrong, and the ten or so enlightened people that post here, they are the only people to know the truth?

No, 'society' isn't wrong.  The idiotic segment of society that buys into all the pseudo-psycho babble that is LGAT and the like are wrong.  Just as wrong as the friggin' Scientologists.


Quote
Or could it perhaps be the other way around, that the world, and society is right, and the few disgruntled people posting here are incorrect. Hmm, I wonder which is could be?


You're a lot like Whooter.  You read things into posts that aren't there.  As I said, it's not society...it's the lunatic fringe in search of a guru to lead them like the sheep they are, making maltreatment and abuse of people in general tolerable in the name of help/treatment/enlightenment.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Froderik

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Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2010, 02:34:55 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
So it's society and the world that are wrong, and the ten or so enlightened people that post here, they are the only people to know the truth?

No, 'society' isn't wrong.  The idiotic segment of society that buys into all the pseudo-psycho babble that is LGAT and the like are wrong.  Just as wrong as the friggin' Scientologists.


Quote
Or could it perhaps be the other way around, that the world, and society is right, and the few disgruntled people posting here are incorrect. Hmm, I wonder which is could be?


You're a lot like Whooter.  You read things into posts that aren't there.  As I said, it's not society...it's the lunatic fringe in search of a guru to lead them like the sheep they are, making maltreatment and abuse of people in general tolerable in the name of help/treatment/enlightenment.

 :tup:  :tup:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Dr Fucktard

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Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2010, 03:03:11 PM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"
So it's society and the world that are wrong, and the ten or so enlightened people that post here, they are the only people to know the truth? Or could it perhaps be the other way around, that the world, and society is right, and the few disgruntled people posting here are incorrect. Hmm, I wonder which is could be?
Neither -- it is SIBS that is always right!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Awake

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Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2010, 05:10:37 PM »
Quote from: "Froderik"
Wow, no offense, but this seems like a lot of mumbo-jumbo...lol

So then.....what exactly do we consider abuse...?   >yawns<

(It seems pretty obvious to me, but then, I'm a simple kind of man..)


Well Froderick, I couldn’t disagree more. I think the double bind can account for why certain aspects of program life can induce mental trauma, and I believe there is enough connective history to suggest it is a concept intentionally built into some programs. I actually believe a good way to describe these programs is as a system of double binds that insist the kids move through processes in which they must act against their own beliefs in favor of their definition, in continual incremental steps. You are damned if you do, you are damned if you don’t but you must still make a choice, this is the double bind faced in a program. A single event may not be the root of the psychological trauma, in fact the processes of change they are drawing from would suggest otherwise.

 I will note the origin of the whole circle of chairs style of therapy comes from Training Groups (T-Groups) and sensitivity training . These are used to create individual change from group processes and they have been studied and documented at length (not mumbo jumbo). However the basic premise clearly shows that negative self concepts can result  from these group processes as easily as positive. It is also admittedly drawn from and compared to concepts in brainwashing and coerced change.  The ethics of these early training experiences were committed to uncoerced choice, respect for individual autonomy and voluntary participation so as to achieve a truly democratic consensus in the group.  This is not the case in programs, and the double bind of forced therapy makes that something to be very wary of in my book.

My recollection of the circle of chairs, raps, was nothing like what most in the outside world would recognize as group therapy. It was more like an interrogation under the guise of therapy. There was no such thing as ‘not wanting to talk’. If you didn’t want to talk there was something wrong with you, you were hiding something, you would end up having to talk about why you didn’t want to talk, it was a game. They were going to press you for your secrets whether you liked it or not, and I’m telling you a couple of these guys truly were skilled interrogators, they could really break you down and in a pretty covert fashion.

How do describe to someone how it can be traumatic to be kidnapped from your bed, be strip searched by the kids at your new ‘school’, then be led around by them while they tell you all the things you cannot say or do, and then go into group therapy and be asked “what’s going on with you?” with the real expectation that you are supposed to be honest about your feelings. I view this as a double bind with the potential for crazy making effects.  I saw many a new arrival at cedu be driven absolutely nuts in front of everybody without the need for yelling or namecalling. It was done with calm caring attitudes and carefully positioned questions, ‘how do you feel about being here right now? Are you scared to be here? You bet, what’s that like? Why is it uncomfortable for you to talk in here?’. I’m not exaggerating, I believe this was the intent, you could not hide your feelings, and they would interrogate you until you revealed them.  I think the double bind is a very relevant concept for a lot of reasons.

One last question. Which situation is more traumatic? Girl A is raped by a stranger or Girl B is raped by her father. I assume most people will say girl B, but why?  I would say because it effectively leaves the child in a double bind.

1. The child is in an intense, dependent relationship with her father  2. The only source of protection is her father, but the rape shatters the trust and safety. The child is left receiving the paradoxical injunction that says she must depend on her father, but she can’t depend on her father. 3. As a child she cannot leave the communication field with her father, as she is dependent on him. In this sense the rape is like an ongoing trauma that cannot be resolved. 4. She is unable to or prevented from  meta-communicate the paradox she is in. She is left in a position where no one can understand her predicament or denied the reality that it exists.  5. She is punished if she does not deny the situation exists, maybe just by laying on guilt. I think if you remove any one of the elements of the double bind in a situation the potential for harm becomes far less. Consider that girl A is able to go to her father and receive genuine help and support from her father after her trauma, Girl B is faced with a far more disturbing situation. I would say the double bind matters very much.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Froderik

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Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2010, 11:35:39 PM »
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Froderik"
Wow, no offense, but this seems like a lot of mumbo-jumbo...lol

So then.....what exactly do we consider abuse...?   >yawns<

(It seems pretty obvious to me, but then, I'm a simple kind of man..)


Well Froderick, I couldn’t disagree more. I think the double bind can account for why certain aspects of program life can induce mental trauma, and I believe there is enough connective history to suggest it is a concept intentionally built into some programs. I actually believe a good way to describe these programs is as a system of double binds that insist the kids move through processes in which they must act against their own beliefs in favor of their definition, in continual incremental steps. You are damned if you do, you are damned if you don’t but you must still make a choice, this is the double bind faced in a program. A single event may not be the root of the psychological trauma, in fact the processes of change they are drawing from would suggest otherwise.

 I will note the origin of the whole circle of chairs style of therapy comes from Training Groups (T-Groups) and sensitivity training . These are used to create individual change from group processes and they have been studied and documented at length (not mumbo jumbo). However the basic premise clearly shows that negative self concepts can result  from these group processes as easily as positive. It is also admittedly drawn from and compared to concepts in brainwashing and coerced change.  The ethics of these early training experiences were committed to uncoerced choice, respect for individual autonomy and voluntary participation so as to achieve a truly democratic consensus in the group.  This is not the case in programs, and the double bind of forced therapy makes that something to be very wary of in my book.

My recollection of the circle of chairs, raps, was nothing like what most in the outside world would recognize as group therapy. It was more like an interrogation under the guise of therapy. There was no such thing as ‘not wanting to talk’. If you didn’t want to talk there was something wrong with you, you were hiding something, you would end up having to talk about why you didn’t want to talk, it was a game. They were going to press you for your secrets whether you liked it or not, and I’m telling you a couple of these guys truly were skilled interrogators, they could really break you down and in a pretty covert fashion.

How do describe to someone how it can be traumatic to be kidnapped from your bed, be strip searched by the kids at your new ‘school’, then be led around by them while they tell you all the things you cannot say or do, and then go into group therapy and be asked “what’s going on with you?” with the real expectation that you are supposed to be honest about your feelings. I view this as a double bind with the potential for crazy making effects.  I saw many a new arrival at cedu be driven absolutely nuts in front of everybody without the need for yelling or namecalling. It was done with calm caring attitudes and carefully positioned questions, ‘how do you feel about being here right now? Are you scared to be here? You bet, what’s that like? Why is it uncomfortable for you to talk in here?’. I’m not exaggerating, I believe this was the intent, you could not hide your feelings, and they would interrogate you until you revealed them.  I think the double bind is a very relevant concept for a lot of reasons.

One last question. Which situation is more traumatic? Girl A is raped by a stranger or Girl B is raped by her father. I assume most people will say girl B, but why?  I would say because it effectively leaves the child in a double bind.

1. The child is in an intense, dependent relationship with her father  2. The only source of protection is her father, but the rape shatters the trust and safety. The child is left receiving the paradoxical injunction that says she must depend on her father, but she can’t depend on her father. 3. As a child she cannot leave the communication field with her father, as she is dependent on him. In this sense the rape is like an ongoing trauma that cannot be resolved. 4. She is unable to or prevented from  meta-communicate the paradox she is in. She is left in a position where no one can understand her predicament or denied the reality that it exists.  5. She is punished if she does not deny the situation exists, maybe just by laying on guilt. I think if you remove any one of the elements of the double bind in a situation the potential for harm becomes far less. Consider that girl A is able to go to her father and receive genuine help and support from her father after her trauma, Girl B is faced with a far more disturbing situation. I would say the double bind matters very much.

tl;dr
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »