Author Topic: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated  (Read 2561 times)

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Offline Pile of Dead Kids

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Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« on: August 26, 2010, 08:51:48 AM »
Introduction: This primer is unique in that you probably shouldn't be reading it. Close your browser, don't ever send your fucking kids, and pretend this entire business doesn't exist. You don't want to be involved in this. If your kids are psycho, call a local shrink (and go to therapy with them), and if they're breaking the law, call the cops. If, on the other hand, you're a former victim (or a teenager realizing what's about to happen to you- a very rare breed indeed) you should be able to quickly figure out what our various agendas are, where to post, and who to send private messages to if need be. That brings us to our first lesson...

1. Everyone has an agenda. To be precise, there are practically no regular, recognizable main-forum posters without agendas. There might be a few occasional posters without them, but they don't show up often and are of little consequence. There are also plenty of people who read, but don't post on, Fornits who have an agenda or two, involved in various organizations with their own agendas. I've got about five at the moment.

What did you expect? It's a fundamentally unmoderated forum about organized child abuse. You'd have to be a sick bastard to come here just for fun, but even the sick bastards here have agendas.

Some of the agendas here are altruistic, some are financial, some are insane, and some are completely insane and deeply disturbing. Figuring out which is which could be an unpleasant process, particularly if there's something on the line (large amounts of money, your self-respect, your kids...)

The program, whatever it is, has an agenda; do you think they make money without one? Remember, a car salesman's agenda is to sell cars and probably wouldn't want you walking off the lot without one. Do you think a realtor really wants you ending up in a house where he doesn't get a cut?

And, let's face it: unless you're just here out of sheer morbid curiosity, you probably have an agenda too.

2. With lesson 1 in mind, remember that arguing posters on Fornits have a dual goal: to drive each other out of the argument and cause you to believe as they do- whoever you are. Nobody is going to let their foes get the upper hand and so they will continue this practice more or less indefinitely, accusing their opponents of having agendas and being disingenuous. (Why do you think programs like the word 'manipulation' so much?) A common practice is attempting to align their words to what they think you want to believe; if you want to believe anything, you shouldn't be here and you definitely shouldn't be involved in this.

3. With lessons 1 and 2 in mind, verify absolutely everything you read or hear from anyone. If it can't be corroborated from an unrelated source, it's probably bullshit. Various people with agendas (remember, that's everyone) like to pretend to have unrelated sources backing them up. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. Treat it like a government investigation. You might hear a lot of claims and see a few pictures. Where did they come from, who put them there, and why? Modern browsers have a search-engine taskbar. Make use of it.

Various posters with various agendas will be by shortly to make various claims about this post.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
...Sergey Blashchishen, James Shirey, Faith Finley, Katherine Rice, Ashlie Bunch, Brendan Blum, Caleb Jensen, Alex Cullinane, Rocco Magliozzi, Elisa Santry, Dillon Peak, Natalynndria Slim, Lenny Ortega, Angellika Arndt, Joey Aletriz, Martin Anderson, James White, Christening Garcia, Kasey Warner, Shirley Arciszewski, Linda Harris, Travis Parker, Omega Leach, Denis Maltez, Kevin Christie, Karlye Newman, Richard DeMaar, Alexis Richie, Shanice Nibbs, Levi Snyder, Natasha Newman, Gracie James, Michael Owens, Carlton Thomas, Taylor Mangham, Carnez Boone, Benjamin Lolley, Jessica Bradford's unnamed baby, Anthony Parker, Dysheka Streeter, Corey Foster, Joseph Winters, Bruce Staeger, Kenneth Barkley, Khalil Todd, Alec Lansing, Cristian Cuellar-Gonzales, Janaia Barnhart, a DRA victim who never even showed up in the news, and yet another unnamed girl at Summit School...

Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2010, 09:31:36 AM »
I'm only posting to say I have nothing to say, which isn't all that uncommon for me now is it?

 :twofinger:

Also, biggest agenda on this forum is Samara, she plans on smothering us all under her unrelenting waves of maternal niceness. I'm feeling gooey already..

should probably lay off the soju and go to bed as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Maximilian

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Re: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2010, 03:13:20 PM »
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
If your kids are psycho, call a local shrink (and go to therapy with them),

IF the kid lets it slip to the shrink, that they might be thinking of harming themselves, they will earn a one way ticket to the locked psychiatric unit, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. Psychiatrists specialize in on thing, in my experience, and that is putting you on as many psych medications as they can. In my opinion, I don't think that is a very effective strategy for dealing with a troubled teen. I'm sure a lot of people think drugging your kid into a stupor is a fine solution, but it's not a long term solution, it doesn't change the reason they behaved in a negative way. It only covers up the problems, then the kid will have to deal with them when they are an adult, on their own. They will also have to deal with the messy process of coming off the very strong medications psychiatrist prescribe like it's candy, on their own.

Have you been or seen what goes on in an adolescent psychiatric unit? All of the things people complain about here happening in programs that harm children, they happen also in hospitals. IN fact the most negative experiences I had in treatment were hospitals like these, I wouldn't go so far to call it abuse, but it was harsh and restrictive and controlling, way more so than the program ever was. Not to mention the added fact, that they will pump you so full of medications you don't know up from sideways.

Usually therapy for teens, they go by themselves and talk to a therapist. I think family group therapy can work, but if a teen is troubled usually the communication broke down prior to that within a family. I also believe that most families that seek out long term programs, have tried most of these options before.



Quote
and if they're breaking the law, call the cops.

I couldn't disagree with this advice more. Juvenile hall, the justice system, courts, probation system, these are worse than any program or hospital. For a parent to willingly involve their child in this govt bureaucracy, and expect it to help them, well then they are painfully naive. If the idea you are trying to say, is punish your kid. Well what is the difference between calling the cops, or calling the escorts to come get the kid. Where would you rather be, if your parents caught you with drugs or something. Sitting in a cell with gang members in jail, or out camping with relatively nice kids out in a wilderness program? Kids should be grateful their parents do not follow this advice, and seek help in the private sector. This is possibly some of the worst advice, I believe, that a parent of a troubled teen could follow. Cops do not help anybody, and parents instantly lose control of the situation and the courts take over. It doesn't matter if the parent changes their mind, from that point on it's out of their hands, and the kid is stuck in "the system" for good. I hope parents are not naive enough to follow this advice.
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Offline shaggys

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Re: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2010, 04:04:01 PM »
I am sorry Pile to get off topic here and we can start another thread for this subject if necessary but I did want to address something that maximillian/suck it brought up. I can't believe I am saying this but I have to agree that calling the cops on your kid has to be the ultimate last resort. Dont get me wrong, if your kid has committed serious felonies harming other people ie rape, murder etc then please call the cops immediately. However if they are breaking the law by using illegal drugs, drinking underage etc then guess what: you gotta grow a pair of balls and raise your own children! Its tough sometimes but dumping them off for some stranger to raise is bullshit. Having them incarcerated in the legal system for petty BS will likely ruin them and most treatment programs will likely convince them that they are a lifelong drug-addict even when they are probably not that at all. You created them - do your job and teach them.
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Offline Samara

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Re: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2010, 04:29:15 PM »
Che, CHe, CHE! I don't have an agenda.  I just have wishes:
1.  For survivors to receive support, validation, fellowship.... Check!!
2.  For program prospects to get flip coin information  with no ed con marketing. For maximum efficacy, this requires people here to behave in a credible fashion. Passion, knowledge, and experience = good. Extreme acts = off putting.  Many people here have done excellent work providing research, anecdotes, and insight. In-fighting and extremity potentially capsize results.

What's done is done. I am more concerned with the current generation.

But I'm not really that nice. If you bend over, I'll kick your ass if you want.  (But then I'd run. Fast.) I'm still pissed about the rick shaw, you see.

For frivolity. I'd add a #3. For the Elan site, I can't keep track of who is who and on what "side" because of the interpersonal dramatics. WTH happened over there? It looks like interpersonal hell. It seems like every one is in there own Private Idaho and there is no interconnectedness. Is there any way it could reach attain #1?

And #4 If I could only figure out how to handle Whooter. On one hand, I should ignore him and focus on issues.  But his bold face personal lies and derailment tactics make it difficult to let it go.  If he were just pro program or neutral, I could take it. But the Tar Baby tactics and convoluted derailment agenda as well as his personal lies make him difficult to ignore. Especially for people who visit briefly.  They haven't spent the time to see his patterns as we have.

So in that sense, I feel like democracy should be usurped in favor of a ban.  That is just my opinion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline anythinganyone

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Re: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2010, 04:48:58 PM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
If your kids are psycho, call a local shrink (and go to therapy with them),

IF the kid lets it slip to the shrink, that they might be thinking of harming themselves, they will earn a one way ticket to the locked psychiatric unit, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

Not true.  If it seems very likely that someone will kill themselves, then the psychiatrist will be required to have them sent to a mental health facility.  A mental health professional is not required to send someone over just because they are merely considering or thinking about suicide or self-harm.

Quote
Psychiatrists specialize in on thing, in my experience, and that is putting you on as many psych medications as they can. In my opinion, I don't think that is a very effective strategy for dealing with a troubled teen. I'm sure a lot of people think drugging your kid into a stupor is a fine solution, but it's not a long term solution, it doesn't change the reason they behaved in a negative way. It only covers up the problems, then the kid will have to deal with them when they are an adult, on their own. They will also have to deal with the messy process of coming off the very strong medications psychiatrist prescribe like it's candy, on their own.

There are crappy psychiatrists and wonderful ones, as with any profession sadly.  Medication is supposed to be an aid, not a solution, and hopefully, all sides would recognise that.  Besides that, no one is forcing pills down anyone's throat.  People are welcome to get second opinions etc.

I take medication, and a very low dose at that, and it has helped me tremendously.

Quote
Have you been or seen what goes on in an adolescent psychiatric unit? All of the things people complain about here happening in programs that harm children, they happen also in hospitals. IN fact the most negative experiences I had in treatment were hospitals like these, I wouldn't go so far to call it abuse, but it was harsh and restrictive and controlling, way more so than the program ever was. Not to mention the added fact, that they will pump you so full of medications you don't know up from sideways.

Specific examples please.  

Quote
Usually therapy for teens, they go by themselves and talk to a therapist. I think family group therapy can work, but if a teen is troubled usually the communication broke down prior to that within a family.

In other words, family group therapy only works when there isn't a problem.  Good philosophy.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2010, 05:15:21 PM »
Quote from: "Samara"
Che, CHe, CHE! I don't have an agenda.  I just have wishes:
1.  For survivors to receive support, validation, fellowship.... Check!!

More of that over on facebook.

Quote
2.  For program prospects to get flip coin information  with no ed con marketing. For maximum efficacy, this requires people here to behave in a credible fashion. Passion, knowledge, and experience = good. Extreme acts = off putting.  Many people here have done excellent work providing research, anecdotes, and insight. In-fighting and extremity potentially capsize results.

What's done is done. I am more concerned with the current generation.

Yeah, good point.

Quote
But I'm not really that nice. If you bend over, I'll kick your ass if you want.  (But then I'd run. Fast.) I'm still pissed about the rick shaw, you see.

I might hold you to that promise. :)

Quote
For frivolity. I'd add a #3. For the Elan site, I can't keep track of who is who and on what "side" because of the interpersonal dramatics. WTH happened over there? It looks like interpersonal hell. It seems like every one is in there own Private Idaho and there is no interconnectedness. Is there any way it could reach attain #1?

I suggest restricting their forum access to just the Elan forum and letting them have it out in a no holds bar forum brawl.

Quote
And #4 If I could only figure out how to handle Whooter. On one hand, I should ignore him and focus on issues.  But his bold face personal lies and derailment tactics make it difficult to let it go.  If he were just pro program or neutral, I could take it. But the Tar Baby tactics and convoluted derailment agenda as well as his personal lies make him difficult to ignore. Especially for people who visit briefly.  They haven't spent the time to see his patterns as we have.

Ignore him.. I rarely bother with him.. no point really.. much of what really goes on happens in private message.. People put too much faith in what is splattered all over the forums.

Quote
So in that sense, I feel like democracy should be usurped in favor of a ban.  That is just my opinion.

There is no democracy when it comes to a ban, just an admin decision. Which wouldn't amount to much anyway as a banned person can download torpark or hotspot shield and go right back to posting under a new identity.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2010, 05:57:08 PM »
One of the difficulties I see here is that many try to place the kid in a box or label them i.e.  if they are suicidal then they need to go to a psych ward, if they are not then they need to stay home.  Life just isnít this easy.  Those of us who have raised kids know that each child is different and requires a different approach. Many kids respond well to local services and move on.  A small population of kids do not respond well and if they donít then we cannot advocate that parents just give up and hope for the best.

There is evidence that some kids are abused in facilities.  There is also evidence that kids are abused outside of facilities.  There are studies which show residential treatment can be very effective.  So this option should never be taken off the table.  But at the same time it should be held as a last resort.
Taking the extreme approach that all residential treatment centers are abusive just shows a personal agenda and smacks of misinformation and bias.  Even the most uninformed parent will see through this agenda in a heartbeat.  Parents know life isnít black and white.  Parents also know enough to ask to and speak with other parents who have been through the process before committing to such a large step.

@Samara, I am disappointed that you stated that you would like me banned.  I think this is because you are uncomfortable that I know one of your dark secrets.  I witnessed you stand by idly while another personís personal information was posted on the internet.  You never spoke a word because the person doing it was anti-program; you would like to see me gone because I know this side of you, your agenda and the double standard you represent.
In reality there are many people on fornits who act the same way I do, but since they are anti-program it is tolerated.  Do you really believe that you yourself donít embrace a double standard ?



...
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Offline Botched Programming

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Re: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2010, 06:07:01 PM »
Quote from: "Samara"

So in that sense, I feel like democracy should be usurped in favor of a ban.  That is just my opinion.

I am behind you 100 percent Samara !!!!
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Offline Botched Programming

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Re: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2010, 06:20:52 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
 Do you really believe that you yourself donít embrace a double standard ?

...

Have you guys noticed how Who and Danny both are now crying this "Double Standard" line... Seems to be more than coincidence in the writing style as well as the way the words are strung together... May be Danny is a different person if he is he is Who's sock puppet.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2010, 06:27:17 PM »
Quote from: "Botched Programming"
Quote from: "Samara"

So in that sense, I feel like democracy should be usurped in favor of a ban.  That is just my opinion.

I am behind you 100 percent Samara !!!!

I think this is what separates those with an open mind with those who are closed minded.  Even though I disagree with Samara, yourself and many others here I feel that everyone has a right to their opinion and the right to express it openly.  I wouldnt even want Dysfunction Junction and RobertBruce  silenced because in their own way they feel as though they are doing the right thing with their tactics.  I dont think DJ (etal) would spend 5 years of his life trolling me if he didnt think he was right.

Once you silence the first person the next ones on the list are easy and pretty soon you are banning people left and right for a mere general disagreement just because you can and begin enjoying wielding your power.



...
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Offline Botched Programming

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Re: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2010, 06:37:50 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Botched Programming"
Quote from: "Samara"

So in that sense, I feel like democracy should be usurped in favor of a ban.  That is just my opinion.

I am behind you 100 percent Samara !!!!

I think this is what separates those with an open mind with those who are closed minded.  Even though I disagree with Samara, yourself and many others here I feel that everyone has a right to their opinion and the right to express it openly.  I wouldnt even want Dysfunction Junction and RobertBruce  silenced because in their own way they feel as though they are doing the right thing with their tactics.  I dont think DJ (etal) would spend 5 years of his life trolling me if he didnt think he was right.

Once you silence the first person the next ones on the list are easy and pretty soon you are banning people left and right for a mere general disagreement just because you can and begin enjoying wielding your power.

...


Fancy way of saying I don't want to be banned. And if I were banned I would not know what to do with myself...


... (LOL)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 06:39:25 PM by Botched Programming »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2010, 06:38:54 PM »
Quote from: "Botched Programming"
Quote from: "Whooter"
 Do you really believe that you yourself donít embrace a double standard ?

...

Have you guys noticed how Who and Danny both are now crying this "Double Standard" line...

Maybe there is something to it?  Have you ever thought of that?



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Botched Programming

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Re: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2010, 06:42:16 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Botched Programming"
Quote from: "Whooter"
 Do you really believe that you yourself donít embrace a double standard ?

...

Have you guys noticed how Who and Danny both are now crying this "Double Standard" line...

Maybe there is something to it?  Have you ever thought of that?



...

Yeah you are a good ventriloquist... with your sock puppet putting words in it's mouth.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Fornits: A Primer for the Uninitiated
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2010, 06:44:05 PM »
Quote from: "Botched Programming"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Botched Programming"
Quote from: "Samara"

So in that sense, I feel like democracy should be usurped in favor of a ban.  That is just my opinion.

I am behind you 100 percent Samara !!!!

I think this is what separates those with an open mind with those who are closed minded.  Even though I disagree with Samara, yourself and many others here I feel that everyone has a right to their opinion and the right to express it openly.  I wouldnt even want Dysfunction Junction and RobertBruce  silenced because in their own way they feel as though they are doing the right thing with their tactics.  I dont think DJ (etal) would spend 5 years of his life trolling me if he didnt think he was right.

Once you silence the first person the next ones on the list are easy and pretty soon you are banning people left and right for a mere general disagreement just because you can and begin enjoying wielding your power.

...


Fancy way of saying I don't want to be banned.


... (LOL)

Weak, you tilted your hand, botched, you have no backbone and hide behind the group on the band wagon.  Everyone who has been here long enough knows that banning doesn't bother me.  It speaks more about you than it does me.  Why are you so threatened by people who disagree with you?  Your argument must be weak if you need to resort to considering banning someone vs having a discussion.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »