Suicide

[T-Rex]

"BuzzKill" wrote:
Rex - It IS indeed a given that you don't know what your talking about

Your smiley face was meant to imply this? So, you didn't really mean to say 30 or 40 years ago? Or that you could guess our age? That was a joke of some sort?  Please don't take My smile face that way.
 
Respond to the heart of your post - OK:

I happen to know Costa Rica very well. I stay at a place in downtown San Jose (when on vacation), not far from the theater. It is where the governor used to have his residents. Beautiful 20th century villa, wide open. You eat breakfast outside, the climate is stable being so close to the equator, your high enough in the mountains for the temperature to remain cool in the morning.  
It is called the, Rosa del Paseo, translation (rose of the ride), there are roses everywhere on the property, you can see them as you ride down paseo colon.

Buzz you are obviously are in a bad mood or are constantly in a state of flux concerning your experiences with your specific program. Yes, from your writings here and else where I am able to pick this up. My opinion, here.
I am not here to fight with you or have choice words, I said I meant it in jest, if you don't want to accept that fine. Lets just move on and I will communicate with others.
I am familar with Dundee Ranch and their history. Thank god it is over and closed yet that doesn't do anything for the wreckage of the past.
The dentist I use in San Jose, his father was very familiar with abuses going on there and was happy to see it closed.
I noticed in your post about Dundee Ranch they used the word tico a few times, this word and Dundee Ranch should never be used in the same sentence or paragraph again.
Tico, is a enduring reference you use to call a special friend, "a tico".

[BuzzKill]

I am familar with Dundee Ranch and their history. Thank god it is over and closed

Well Dundee did what is often done in this business - got closed then re-opened with a new name and a "kinder-gentler" program.

A rose by any other name is still a rose. . . or private, for profit, abusive and negligent teen ware-house that changes its name is still a . . . and all that jazz. . .

Buzz you are obviously are in a bad mood

No - not at all. Do I really seem Bitchy to you? Just for posting published examples of why these programs are dangerous and damaging to the point they might push a person clean over the edge? Would you like to see more? I have tons stashed away on any number of programs.  

or are constantly in a state of flux concerning your experiences with your specific program.

State of Flux? Well, once upon a time - but not in a while. Certainly not now.

Yes, from your writings here and else where I am able to pick this up. My opinion, here.

This is the problem I was trying to point out earlier. . . You can Not pick this up. You only think you can. But at least you acknowledge this is just your opinion.

[T-Rex]

I am familar with Dundee Ranch and their history. Thank god it is over and closed

Well Dundee did what is often done in this business - got closed then re-opened with a new name and a "kinder-gentler" program.

A rose by any other name is still a rose. . . or private, for profit, abusive and negligent teen ware-house that changes its name is still a . . . and all that jazz. . .

Buzz you are obviously are in a bad mood

No - not at all. Do I really seem Bitchy to you? Just for posting published examples of why these programs are dangerous and damaging to the point they might push a person clean over the edge? Would you like to see more? I have tons stashed away on any number of programs.  

or are constantly in a state of flux concerning your experiences with your specific program.

State of Flux? Well, once upon a time - but not in a while. Certainly not now.

Yes, from your writings here and else where I am able to pick this up. My opinion, here.

This is the problem I was trying to point out earlier. . . You can Not pick this up. You only think you can. But at least you acknowledge this is just your opinion.

Buzzkill wrote:
This is the problem I was trying to point out earlier. . . You can Not pick this up. You only think you can. But at least you acknowledge this is just your opinion.

Why can I not pick this up. I use the phrase "pick this up" to mean, I am internalizing what you/they are sharing and relating it to my experiences. I am feeling emotions of empathy and compassion and also intellectualizing the abusive processes people went through.
Yes, I believe I can, "pick this up" on the threads here.

[Ursus]

I noticed in your post about Dundee Ranch they used the word tico a few times, this word and Dundee Ranch should never be used in the same sentence or paragraph again.
Tico, is a enduring reference you use to call a special friend, "a tico".

Lol. Each and every occurrence of the word "tico" on the entire previous page of this thread was within the phrase "The Tico Times," namely the news organization which originally published these articles.

I happen to know Costa Rica very well. I stay at a place in downtown San Jose (when on vacation), not far from the theater.

According to the top banner on their homepage, The Tico Times would appear to be based right in San José, Costa Rica. Ever hear of them?

Perhaps you were simply not reading Buzz's posts carefully enough, T-Rex.

[T-Rex]

tico.....

[T-Rex]

I noticed in your post about Dundee Ranch they used the word tico a few times, this word and Dundee Ranch should never be used in the same sentence or paragraph again.
Tico, is a enduring reference you use to call a special friend, "a tico".

Lol. Each and every occurrence of the word "tico" on the entire previous page of this thread was within the phrase "The Tico Times," namely the news organization which originally published these articles.

OK.....

I happen to know Costa Rica very well. I stay at a place in downtown San Jose (when on vacation), not far from the theater.

According to the top banner on their homepage, The Tico Times would appear to be based right in San José, Costa Rica. Ever hear of them?

It would have been hard not to, giving my amount of time there.

Perhaps you were simply not reading Buzz's posts carefully enough, T-Rex.

I thought what I had to say was self explanatory. Thanks any way.

[reformed12stepper]

I agree it is never one thing that makes someone kill themself but several people on here have said that their experiences in places that they found abusive did make them feel suicidal. When a kid comes out of a similar place and then dies at a young age it does suggest a possible link. If someone else went to the same place and feels like they were helped i don't feel like it is my place to dispute them. But i would still argue that it is too much of a risk to send any kid to such a place because there are better ways of helping a kid than sending them away to an isolated environment on the off chance that they might be one of the people that feel helped.
I am sure that most parents are an active part of the process because they care about their kid. But Buzzkill said that the mentality in her experience is to break down kids and then rebuild them and used a baking analogy. This is really obnoxious concept. Becuase they are suggesting that it is no longer about helping a kid to overcome some kind of self destruction, but changing them into exactly the person a parent might want. To me that indicates the only way a family can heal is if a kid ceases to be themself and instead gets a whole other personality

[Ursus]

What can happen when a vulnerable soul — perhaps going through a thorny patch in life or a difficult transition — gets subjected to confrontational "therapy" or a regimen of encounter groups such as is practiced in TTI programs, as well as many newage emotional/spiritual growth organizations?

Read about what happened to one such man, who experienced but a weekend of the New Warrior Training Adventure put on by the MKP, in Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto over in the HAPA -- an LGAT thread... R.I.P.

[Eliscu2]

:suicide:

[reformed12stepper]

What can happen when a vulnerable soul — perhaps going through a thorny patch in life or a difficult transition — gets subjected to confrontational "therapy" or a regimen of encounter groups such as is practiced in TTI programs, as well as many newage emotional/spiritual growth organizations?

Read about what happened to one such man, who experienced but a weekend of the New Warrior Training Adventure put on by the MKP, in Naked Men: The ManKind Project and Michael Scinto over in the HAPA -- an LGAT thread... R.I.P.

that sure looks nuts. Although it looks like that was for adults who i can only assume signed on themselves. I feel sad for that man though. I feel like it is far worse for adolescents to be made do something that intense. I read somewhere the teenage brain is still developing until the age of 25. I wonder what such an extreme and intense an environment can do to a kid's mind.

[BuzzKill]

Understanding LGAT, what it is, how it works and why it is so dangerous, is very important to understanding how some of these programs operate and grow. Its covered pretty well in the book: Cults in our Midst. There is quite a bit on Rick Ross' web site too. ISAC used to have a bunch of links on the topic. I guess someone needs to try and recreate that links resource.

[Froderik]

I went through it, a bunch of your "peers" yell at you or tell you what feelings you should have about this that or the other thing, and you either get approval or sat down by the group staff. I almost wanted to reply "What is there to understand? It's so obviously a bunch of bullshit," but it may be harder to grasp this if you didn't witness it firsthand. In a few words, LGAT is re-enforced group-think: The individual -- or what's left of the individual -- attempts to develop another 'personality' in this environment in effort to cope (or they're just a good liar). Either way, not what I'd call healthy.

I leave it to the professionals to do the math and tell me how two years of this "therapy" would affect a kid's mind...

[reformed12stepper]

Understanding LGAT, what it is, how it works and why it is so dangerous, is very important to understanding how some of these programs operate and grow. Its covered pretty well in the book: Cults in our Midst. There is quite a bit on Rick Ross' web site too. ISAC used to have a bunch of links on the topic. I guess someone needs to try and recreate that links resource.

I read cults in our mist recently. Overall i thought it was pretty good and i agreed with her a lot. But id guess the only thing i thought she was maybe missing is that at the end of the day adults can decide for themselves whether to join some crazy organization and to some extent when to walk away. I know that you are more likely to if you are going through some life changes, I think because most a geared around some kind of self improvement. Still at the end of the day it is a decision that a person makes
But kids don't have a choice. I know that when i was a kid I could be a royal bastard. Seriously, I could have a hardcore pro lifer arguing for abortion and just holding up my picture as all the proof needed. I know some of this was just because it was fun and some of it was because i did not like who i was and did not feel i measured up to my older brothers. So going somewhere that tried to make me into another person and that totally isolated me from my family and friends i think probably would have made me far more confused and miserable. I dont know if i would become suicidal but i can see how an already depressed kid particularly if it is at a clinical level would be pushed over the edge.

[Froderik]

If I commit suicide, it will not be to destroy myself but to put myself back together again. Suicide will be for me only one means of violently reconquering myself, of brutally invading my being, of anticipating the unpredictable approaches of God. By suicide, I reintroduce my design in nature, I shall for the first time give things the shape of my will.
-Antonin Artaud

[T-Rex]

I have read many of the posts here and I have to agree with reform 12, that to argue with someone here who experienced a program first hand is disrespectful.
To bring the conversation here to a more professional level (I am not a professional) in the absence of Doctors, one point of mine is adults have the benefit of making their own decisions, we can argue that they are manipulated but they still make their own decisions.
Children on the other hand don't make their own decisions, their parents do. Thank god for that because I believe there would be many more suicides. Suck-It made a great point who is investigating the suicides happening that could have been prevented if the child was placed in a program designed for them.
Fornits wants to argue that children should have more rights, OK, I'll go with that so long as you raise all these children with all these new rights.
Having raised children I know they are all different, they come into maturity at different times, their common sense comes at different times also. Now have a child having issues reaching maturity because of severe mental and emotional problems out of the reach of the parents ability to correct.
I have not read a post yet from a parent here that raised a child with severe mental and emotional issues and explained how they dealt with this. I am not talking about a friend or relative, I am talking about you. I was blessed with well rounded children, thank god. So I have no experience first hand in raising a child with chronic self destructive issues. I am not talking about the issues children grow of in a year or less.