Author Topic: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People"  (Read 4211 times)

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Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People"
« on: July 30, 2010, 01:53:12 PM »
Well, we thought we'd never see this, but Ed Cons are now recommending that no kids should be sent to ANY Aspen Education facilities due to concerns over safety and quality:

Quote from: "Family Light"
FamilyLight now recommends against referring to or enrolling in any Aspen or CRC Health school or program due to what the closing of New Leaf of North Carolina says about the value system of that company.

Quote from: "Tom Croake, Ed Con"
Enough, Already! -- Aspen Again
   
             
 On Tuesday, May 11, 2010, I received a phone call from a management person in the Aspen organization.  This is unusual.   Aspen officials don’t usually  phone me. But this is a person I knew and trusted.  She knew I did not like her employer.  She also knew I had the highest regard for her.   The message:  New Leaf of North Carolina was closing.   Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital had decided that only one program was needed in the organization serving the market of New Leaf.  The North Carolina program would close and the property used to upgrade the program for Aspergers kids.  The girls (and their parents) to whom Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital had committed to see them through the treatment process would need to relocate.  But now Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital saw what they believe is an opportunity to increase their profit margins, so they will disrupt the lives of the girls currently enrolled at New Leaf.

I no longer believe that it would be a responsible action for any professional referring person or any parent or any other person to place enroll any person or oneself in any facility operated by or affiliated in any way with Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital.  FamilyLight sm now solidly recommends against use of . any such program, school, or facility. This includes Wellspring Weight Loss Academies.  (This does NOT refer to Wellspring in Bethlehem Connecticut, which is not affiliated with Aspen.)  

It appears to me, after hearing this, that Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital is concerned only about its profit margin and will subordinate the interest of the people in their schools and treatment centers toward that end.  I was naïve.  I never should have been surprised.  Several weeks ago I posted on our website, in our review of Aspen Education,  the following:

CRC Health Group, controlling the Aspen brand name, is not just a for-profit organization but it is owned by a private investment firm Bain Capital with a fiduciary responsibility to maximize return on investment.  The reality is that the best care in therapeutic facilities is not necessarily the care that produces the greatest return on investment. We would like to  hear a commitment directly from Bain Capital that they have directed  CRC Health Group to provide the highest quality of care they can, observing that while short-term financial gains might result from taking shortcuts, the long term best financial performance will result from delivering the highest quality services with the highest standards of ethics.

When I posted that, I naively assumed that Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital actually could make that kind of commitment and live by it.  I thought that because there were (and still are) essentially good programs, managed by competent caring people, we could place confidence in some such programs. New Leaf of North Carolina was one such program.  It was under the very capable leadership of Catherine “Cat” Jennings, one of the very best of the best in this business.  It was a superior quality program.  

About three weeks prior to the phone call I just referred to (on May 11),  I had spoken by phone with Cat Jennings, being very honest about my concerns about Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital.    I said, “Cat, I am still willing to support New Leaf NC, but here is my concern.  I could refer a young lady to your program tomorrow, based upon my confidence in you.  Then in two weeks Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital could terminate your employment and the girl would be committed to that program, while the reason for confidence in it was gone.”  She replied that it could not happen.   Three weeks later all of their girls are being uprooted and the program is closing.

To be clear, while we were saddened by other closings of other Aspen programs, we could rationalize them as not confirming this kind of value system.  We were told Cedars was running extreme losses that were not sustainable and there was no way to turn that around. Same with Excel Academy in Texas.   We did not like how the shutdown was handled at Cedars but we gave Aspen the benefit of the doubt.  Mt. Bachelor and Sagewalk were closed by order of the State of Oregon without due process.  

In the case of Mt. Bachelor, if press reports were accurate, I was (to put it mildly) puzzled by the apparent willingness of Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital to allow procedures to be in place at Mt. Bachelor which were the kinds of procedures that had motivated Congressman Miller's push for tighter regulation of the industry.  We had questions about the judgment of a company that would have allowed themselves to be vulnerable to that.

So while we were highly critical of Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital over that, we again gave the benefit of the doubt as to how this concern might affect suitability of higher quality programs operated by Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital.   We no longer believe it is responsible to give the benefit of the doubt, after the choice by the company voluntarily to disrupt the lives of the very vulnerable girls they had committed to care for -- girls enrolled in one Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital's highest quality schools.  

Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital complained bitterly about the disruption to the students at Mt. Bachelor Academy when the State of Oregon shut that school down.  But by choice, they now do the same thing to the New Leaf students for the sake of a few dollars profit.  

To our dismay, superior professionals, Karen Fitzhugh, Frank Bartolomeo, Catherine Jennings, Jim Dredge, and John Singleton are either either gone from Aspen or have been taken from the assignment where they had proven their effectiveness.  Marc Dornfeld, Patty Evans, Jack Kline and the people who made the decision to close this program remain in their positions.  We think this  speaks directly to the value system that drives Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital.  We think this tells us why we should not trust this company with our children.  

We do not want this to be interpreted as a boycott where we would drop the concern if Aspen were to take corrective action, i.e. reversing the decision to close New Leaf of North Carolina.  That is not what we are doing.  We simply do not believe these are appropriate venues for kids (or adults), based upon the recent behavior of the management at Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital.  Of course we would consider changing our view if policy changes and personnel changes were to occur.  We would want reason for confidence that the profit motivation would not in the future lead to decisions detrimental to the students/ clients/ program residents. We fear that is unlikely with the present management at CRC Health Group and so long as Bain Capital manages  Aspen and  CRC Health Group for short term gain and appear not to consider the proper treatment of the population served in their facilities
 

Ouch.  Fucking ouch!

Looks like Aspen may be circling the drain and is losing the PR war.  With Whooter as a field general, that shouldn't surprise anyone!
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Re: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2010, 04:34:24 PM »
Quote from: "Family Light"
We have been very concerned about the marketing tactics used by the Aspen Education Group...If facilities are marketed on a basis that deviates from straightforward factual information about what is done well and what is not done well, then can the appropriateness care of the young people be trusted in a facility being so marketed?
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Re: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2010, 05:29:06 PM »
Aspen chooses profit over people, yet the profits are plunging...

Quote from: "Treatment Magazine"
Same facility growth in the CRC’s Youth Division - Aspen Education - has been falling at more than 10 percent all year.

This explains the desperation of those with fiduciary interests in Aspen.  Let's hope they keep on falling until the business is unsustainable.
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Offline Pile of Dead Kids

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Re: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2010, 06:27:30 PM »
Oh wow, this is hilarious.

Quote
In the case of Mt. Bachelor, if press reports were accurate, I was (to put it mildly) puzzled by the apparent willingness of Aspen/CRC Health Group/Bain Capital to allow procedures to be in place at Mt. Bachelor which were the kinds of procedures that had motivated Congressman Miller's push for tighter regulation of the industry. We had questions about the judgment of a company that would have allowed themselves to be vulnerable to that.

Think about that. The ed-con doesn't even so much as pretend to be concerned about what MBA was doing to the kids. This fuckhead is concerned that was what it was doing- sexualized roleplay, Lifesteps and other abuse, etc- was letting it be vulnerable to getting shut down.

That, and he was probably upset about not getting enough kickbacks. Aspen's too greedy to give away that much money. Hence the crocodile tears. An ed-con accusing Aspen of greed is like a pirahna accusing a shark of gluttony.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
...Sergey Blashchishen, James Shirey, Faith Finley, Katherine Rice, Ashlie Bunch, Brendan Blum, Caleb Jensen, Alex Cullinane, Rocco Magliozzi, Elisa Santry, Dillon Peak, Natalynndria Slim, Lenny Ortega, Angellika Arndt, Joey Aletriz, Martin Anderson, James White, Christening Garcia, Kasey Warner, Shirley Arciszewski, Linda Harris, Travis Parker, Omega Leach, Denis Maltez, Kevin Christie, Karlye Newman, Richard DeMaar, Alexis Richie, Shanice Nibbs, Levi Snyder, Natasha Newman, Gracie James, Michael Owens, Carlton Thomas, Taylor Mangham, Carnez Boone, Benjamin Lolley, Jessica Bradford's unnamed baby, Anthony Parker, Dysheka Streeter, Corey Foster, Joseph Winters, Bruce Staeger, Kenneth Barkley, Khalil Todd, Alec Lansing, Cristian Cuellar-Gonzales, Janaia Barnhart, a DRA victim who never even showed up in the news, and yet another unnamed girl at Summit School...

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Re: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2010, 08:06:42 PM »
Very true, Pile.  Nobody's saying this was said out of altruism.  Nonetheless, a sure sign of trouble is when they eat their own...
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Re: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2010, 08:23:40 AM »
More on Aspen's troubles here:

Quote from: "Dysfunction Junction"
Well, we thought we'd never see this, but Ed Cons are now recommending that no kids should be sent to ANY Aspen Education facilities due to concerns over safety and quality:

Quote from: "Family Light"
FamilyLight now recommends against referring to or enrolling in any Aspen or CRC Health school or program due to what the closing of New Leaf of North Carolina says about the value system of that company.

Quote from: "Tom Croake, Ed Con"
Enough, Already! -- Aspen Again
   
             
 On Tuesday, May 11, 2010, I received a phone call from a management person in the Aspen organization.  This is unusual.   Aspen officials don’t usually  phone me. But this is a person I knew and trusted.  She knew I did not like her employer.  She also knew I had the highest regard for her.   The message:  New Leaf of North Carolina was closing.   Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital had decided that only one program was needed in the organization serving the market of New Leaf.  The North Carolina program would close and the property used to upgrade the program for Aspergers kids.  The girls (and their parents) to whom Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital had committed to see them through the treatment process would need to relocate.  But now Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital saw what they believe is an opportunity to increase their profit margins, so they will disrupt the lives of the girls currently enrolled at New Leaf.

I no longer believe that it would be a responsible action for any professional referring person or any parent or any other person to place enroll any person or oneself in any facility operated by or affiliated in any way with Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital.  FamilyLight sm now solidly recommends against use of . any such program, school, or facility. This includes Wellspring Weight Loss Academies.  (This does NOT refer to Wellspring in Bethlehem Connecticut, which is not affiliated with Aspen.)  

It appears to me, after hearing this, that Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital is concerned only about its profit margin and will subordinate the interest of the people in their schools and treatment centers toward that end.  I was naïve.  I never should have been surprised.  Several weeks ago I posted on our website, in our review of Aspen Education,  the following:

CRC Health Group, controlling the Aspen brand name, is not just a for-profit organization but it is owned by a private investment firm Bain Capital with a fiduciary responsibility to maximize return on investment.  The reality is that the best care in therapeutic facilities is not necessarily the care that produces the greatest return on investment. We would like to  hear a commitment directly from Bain Capital that they have directed  CRC Health Group to provide the highest quality of care they can, observing that while short-term financial gains might result from taking shortcuts, the long term best financial performance will result from delivering the highest quality services with the highest standards of ethics.

When I posted that, I naively assumed that Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital actually could make that kind of commitment and live by it.  I thought that because there were (and still are) essentially good programs, managed by competent caring people, we could place confidence in some such programs. New Leaf of North Carolina was one such program.  It was under the very capable leadership of Catherine “Cat” Jennings, one of the very best of the best in this business.  It was a superior quality program.  

About three weeks prior to the phone call I just referred to (on May 11),  I had spoken by phone with Cat Jennings, being very honest about my concerns about Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital.    I said, “Cat, I am still willing to support New Leaf NC, but here is my concern.  I could refer a young lady to your program tomorrow, based upon my confidence in you.  Then in two weeks Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital could terminate your employment and the girl would be committed to that program, while the reason for confidence in it was gone.”  She replied that it could not happen.   Three weeks later all of their girls are being uprooted and the program is closing.

To be clear, while we were saddened by other closings of other Aspen programs, we could rationalize them as not confirming this kind of value system.  We were told Cedars was running extreme losses that were not sustainable and there was no way to turn that around. Same with Excel Academy in Texas.   We did not like how the shutdown was handled at Cedars but we gave Aspen the benefit of the doubt.  Mt. Bachelor and Sagewalk were closed by order of the State of Oregon without due process.  

In the case of Mt. Bachelor, if press reports were accurate, I was (to put it mildly) puzzled by the apparent willingness of Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital to allow procedures to be in place at Mt. Bachelor which were the kinds of procedures that had motivated Congressman Miller's push for tighter regulation of the industry.  We had questions about the judgment of a company that would have allowed themselves to be vulnerable to that.

So while we were highly critical of Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital over that, we again gave the benefit of the doubt as to how this concern might affect suitability of higher quality programs operated by Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital.   We no longer believe it is responsible to give the benefit of the doubt, after the choice by the company voluntarily to disrupt the lives of the very vulnerable girls they had committed to care for -- girls enrolled in one Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital's highest quality schools.  

Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital complained bitterly about the disruption to the students at Mt. Bachelor Academy when the State of Oregon shut that school down.  But by choice, they now do the same thing to the New Leaf students for the sake of a few dollars profit.  

To our dismay, superior professionals, Karen Fitzhugh, Frank Bartolomeo, Catherine Jennings, Jim Dredge, and John Singleton are either either gone from Aspen or have been taken from the assignment where they had proven their effectiveness.  Marc Dornfeld, Patty Evans, Jack Kline and the people who made the decision to close this program remain in their positions.  We think this  speaks directly to the value system that drives Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital.  We think this tells us why we should not trust this company with our children.  

We do not want this to be interpreted as a boycott where we would drop the concern if Aspen were to take corrective action, i.e. reversing the decision to close New Leaf of North Carolina.  That is not what we are doing.  We simply do not believe these are appropriate venues for kids (or adults), based upon the recent behavior of the management at Aspen/ CRC Health Group/ Bain Capital.  Of course we would consider changing our view if policy changes and personnel changes were to occur.  We would want reason for confidence that the profit motivation would not in the future lead to decisions detrimental to the students/ clients/ program residents. We fear that is unlikely with the present management at CRC Health Group and so long as Bain Capital manages  Aspen and  CRC Health Group for short term gain and appear not to consider the proper treatment of the population served in their facilities
 

Ouch.  Fucking ouch!

Looks like Aspen may be circling the drain and is losing the PR war.  With Whooter as a field general, that shouldn't surprise anyone!
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2010, 08:54:47 AM »
I think it is great that Family light is trying to hold CRC's feet to the fire to insure better oversight and increased quality.  This type of criticism is intended to make people stand up and take notice and in this case they want CRC to get better.  There are so many people here on fornits that are unwilling to work towards improving the industry so it is refreshing that the family light article has been tossed onto the table for discussion and review.

Here is a direct link:

FamilyLight article



...
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2010, 09:31:59 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
I think it is great that Family light is trying to hold CRC's feet to the fire to insure better oversight and increased quality.  This type of criticism is intended to make people stand up and take notice and in this case they want CRC to get better.  There are so many people here on fornits that are unwilling to work towards improving the industry so it is refreshing that the family light article has been tossed onto the table for discussion and review.

Here is a direct link:

FamilyLight article


Well, that's all good but what do you think about Aspen conducting themselves in such a way that even EdCons are saying they're abusive?  I notice you ignored that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2010, 09:41:25 AM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
I think it is great that Family light is trying to hold CRC's feet to the fire to insure better oversight and increased quality.  This type of criticism is intended to make people stand up and take notice and in this case they want CRC to get better.  There are so many people here on fornits that are unwilling to work towards improving the industry so it is refreshing that the family light article has been tossed onto the table for discussion and review.

Here is a direct link:

FamilyLight article


Well, that's all good but what do you think about Aspen conducting themselves in such a way that even EdCons are saying they're abusive?  I notice you ignored that.

The guy is losing business and he is pissed off.  He is lashing out a little.  It would be hard to find any business that doesnt piss people off when they make business decisions.  When a new program opens there are people who are happy because of new jobs and those who dont want troubled teens in their town and are against it.  We can chose to just post the articles that show programs in a bad light or we can choose to show all of them here on fornits.

Are you in agreement with all of Family Light articles?  or just this one?
See what I am saying?


...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2010, 09:48:10 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
I think it is great that Family light is trying to hold CRC's feet to the fire to insure better oversight and increased quality.  This type of criticism is intended to make people stand up and take notice and in this case they want CRC to get better.  There are so many people here on fornits that are unwilling to work towards improving the industry so it is refreshing that the family light article has been tossed onto the table for discussion and review.

Here is a direct link:

FamilyLight article


Well, that's all good but what do you think about Aspen conducting themselves in such a way that even EdCons are saying they're abusive?  I notice you ignored that.

The guy is losing business and he is pissed off.  He is lashing out a little.  It would be hard to find any business that doesnt piss people off when they make business decisions.  When a new program opens there are people who are happy because of new jobs and those who dont want troubled teens in their town and are against it.  We can chose to just post the articles that show programs in a bad light or we can choose to show all of them here on fornits.

Are you in agreement with all of Family Light articles?  or just this one?
See what I am saying?


Yes, I see what you're saying but it still doesn't answer the question I asked.  As usual.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2010, 09:53:25 AM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
I think it is great that Family light is trying to hold CRC's feet to the fire to insure better oversight and increased quality.  This type of criticism is intended to make people stand up and take notice and in this case they want CRC to get better.  There are so many people here on fornits that are unwilling to work towards improving the industry so it is refreshing that the family light article has been tossed onto the table for discussion and review.

Here is a direct link:

FamilyLight article


Well, that's all good but what do you think about Aspen conducting themselves in such a way that even EdCons are saying they're abusive?  I notice you ignored that.

The guy is losing business and he is pissed off.  He is lashing out a little.  It would be hard to find any business that doesnt piss people off when they make business decisions.  When a new program opens there are people who are happy because of new jobs and those who dont want troubled teens in their town and are against it.  We can chose to just post the articles that show programs in a bad light or we can choose to show all of them here on fornits.

Are you in agreement with all of Family Light articles?  or just this one?
See what I am saying?


Yes, I see what you're saying but it still doesn't answer the question I asked.  As usual.

I felt that I answered your question.  Business decisions effect other businesses.  This closure has apparently hurt Family Light and the girls they sent there.  He feels Aspen doesnt care about the kids and only the money.  I guess they are interested in both.  



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2010, 12:43:06 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
I think it is great that Family light is trying to hold CRC's feet to the fire to insure better oversight and increased quality.  This type of criticism is intended to make people stand up and take notice and in this case they want CRC to get better.  There are so many people here on fornits that are unwilling to work towards improving the industry so it is refreshing that the family light article has been tossed onto the table for discussion and review.

Here is a direct link:

FamilyLight article


Well, that's all good but what do you think about Aspen conducting themselves in such a way that even EdCons are saying they're abusive?  I notice you ignored that.

The guy is losing business and he is pissed off.  He is lashing out a little.  It would be hard to find any business that doesnt piss people off when they make business decisions.  When a new program opens there are people who are happy because of new jobs and those who dont want troubled teens in their town and are against it.  We can chose to just post the articles that show programs in a bad light or we can choose to show all of them here on fornits.

Are you in agreement with all of Family Light articles?  or just this one?
See what I am saying?


Yes, I see what you're saying but it still doesn't answer the question I asked.  As usual.

I felt that I answered your question.  Business decisions effect other businesses.  This closure has apparently hurt Family Light and the girls they sent there.  He feels Aspen doesnt care about the kids and only the money.  I guess they are interested in both.

Again with you seeing this more importantly as a business.  We look at it as more importantly what's best for the kids.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2010, 01:03:40 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Again with you seeing this more importantly as a business.  We look at it as more importantly what's best for the kids.

The advantage that I have is I can recognize that programs are a business and they also help people.  Hospitals are privately owned but they provide care. The 2 can work together.  If we only looked at what hospitals did for people and forgot about the expenses they would go out of business and no one would get any help.  You need to step back and look at the bigger picture and recognize there is a balance at play.



...
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Offline Froderik

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Re: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2010, 01:41:57 PM »
Try as you may, you will never dig yourself out of the obvious hole that you have found yourself in. Aspen has been proven to be a bunch of jive (to be concise), and there is nothing you can do or say to convince anyone otherwise... time to admit the ship is sinking and find a new job, I guess..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Ed Con - "Aspen Education, Profit Over Vulnerable People
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2010, 02:16:15 PM »
Quote from: "Froderik"
Try as you may, you will never dig yourself out of the obvious hole that you have found yourself in. Aspen has been proven to be a bunch of jive (to be concise), and there is nothing you can do or say to convince anyone otherwise... time to admit the ship is sinking and find a new job, I guess..

Aspen is just a name, Frod, the industry is driven by need.  If Aspen goes under then new programs will pop up.  If a few hospitals went under then they would be replaced by new ones under a different management.

It’s a customer driven industry.



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »